LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[subrew]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Love how Westwood is saying it's all Golf Digest nonsense --- was reported by an Australian outlet and here is the UK version.  https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/liv-golf-adelaide-course-damage-29927432

 

Because Golf Digest has run the same stuff, and was promoting the hell out of it on their social media yesterday.  "Click link in the bio."  Even our very own GolfWRX has an article this morning, but cut and paste Matt managed to include a link to a member who tweeted that the one photo of the muddy area isn't even on the playing course.  

 

"I’m a member at Grange, the only places that are affected are not in the playing area whatsoever. The image of the mud here is 20m in front and 10m right of the first tee, if you’re hitting it there, you’re the problem…"

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by subrew

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Except they didn't take the meeting.  Even if you had no intention of working with LIV, you could have had the opportunity to hear what they were planning (to an extent) and been in a better position to defend yourself.

 

There is probably a Sun Tzu quote about that.

 

Even if they did do what they had to do, the PGAT did not come out in the best light either.

This nonsense was presented by the Premiere Golf League. The PGAT has real sponsors and to associate yourself with Saudi backed anything goes against the image that the tour is trying to maintain. 

 

"The tour should have taken the meeting or phone call"  is a talking  point of LIV fanatics and make zero sense.

[NV825]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I know I am clutching my pearls.  Something like the above has never happened before and should not be tolerated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You missed the point of the issue...

 

 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Naive and only makes sense if you want to help LIV play the victim.  Hashed and rehashed for over a year.  Nothing in it at all for anyone from the PGA Tour to "meet" with "LIV" - it was already obvious what LIV was all about and has been from the outset.

 

So you think then that the PGAT stepping on its own "toes" was done so with full knowledge of what LIV was and all about? 

 

Do you think that PGAT could have handled their response better?

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

This nonsense was presented by the Premiere Golf League. The PGAT has real sponsors and to associate yourself with Saudi backed anything goes against the image that the tour is trying to maintain. 

 

"The tour should have taken the meeting or phone call"  is a talking  point of LIV fanatics and make zero sense.

 

It makes sense.  You just need to weigh what you bring up, associating yourself with a Saudi backed golf league, against any information you may have gleaned from a meeting.  You may come to the conclusion that any information you may have gotten from the meeting is not worth the association and that is fine.

 

I don't think I would approach it as "this is just a rerun of the premier golf league and I know all I need to know to position the PGAT to address the risk."  That seems rather foolish given you had the opportunity to have a meeting with them where you (nor they) were under no obligation to work together.  Me personally, I would have taken the opportunity to let them lay their cards on the table. You have your top dogs there and your legal counsel and you take in all the information they would have provided you.  You divulge none to them.

 

At this point it doesn't really matter other than to discuss it as the PGAT may have used the information to craft a better response to its members, the public and its sponsors.  

 

If I was running a business and a competitor who was intending to open their business in my area wanted to meet I would do so provided it was lawful to do so.

[Shilgy]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:05 AM, CDM said:

 

Good qustion but how many people buy from items from advertisements, more so related to GOLF.

 

I had to think about this for a bit. I agree marketing is key, but 99% sure I have ever bought anything, invested in any company, etc that advertised during a PGAT event. 

 

IE: meaning that becuase they marketed a product during said event it drew me to where I had to go out and buy it, invest with them, etc.  Not just golf other sports included.

 

Yes...I buy Titleist balls/clubs, Mizuno clubs, Bridgestone balls, etc. but not because of a commercial.  I would bet thought that is more common in the states.  We are lucky as we have so much more access to golf equipment here VS other parts of the world so we can test vs "hoping" that driver works well. 

 

Normally the rule would be how many people you reach. Golf is not that market, not just LIV, all of golf.  Limited really. Nothing will come close to soccer.  The World Cup Final's last year reached 1.5 billion world wide. Unreal...! US largest event is the superbowl and it only hit 150 million world wide roughly which 113mm was from the US as I recall. 

 

Granted I never once thought about LA Golf BUT a certain person in this add sure has me thinking about them 🤣

 

 

 

 

On 5/8/2023 at 9:27 AM, CDM said:

 

The only effects Gooch so I am not sure they "targeted" him direclty.  A rule change for just one player would be pretty petty since no one else would be an issue who plays LIV.     

 

I can see Gooch's view though.  Per the rules 9 monhts ago he was in.

 

I tried to look and could not find a rule change the USGA made that was instant, more so "retro-active" as to exclude players 6 months after the fact.  When it comes to eligiblity they made the changes and typically list for the forth coming year.   

 

So why they made this one retro-active is the odd part?

 

What happens if a PGA Tour player qualifies and yet can not play based on injury? Say he drops down to 75th ranked so he is out now?  Will they let him play becuase it was "injury" related?  

 

*Note: I looked up prior events and there has been a hand full of players who have not played in the Tour Championship over the years based on personal aspects, more so to injury and they were in the major the next year based on the rule of the Tour Chamipionship.     

 

For the advertising quote I will just say you have certainly bought things you have seen on advertisements.  Whether it was a “must have it” purchase or at the store name recognition doesn’t matter to the advertiser.  Either way you bought their merchandise.

 

On the Gooch eligibility point you missed the change.  It’s not “qualified and played in” its “qualified for and eligible for”.  The player that missed because of injury was still eligible even if he did not play.  The eligibility portion covers players that were qualified,but were no longer members in good standing.  Might be the players that went to LIV or it could be a player that was suspended by the tour because of misconduct of some sort.

[freeze16172002]

11 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I know I am clutching my pearls.  Something like the above has never happened before and should not be tolerated.

 

 

 

 

 

Kinda saw the comparison coming, can you point to the player reading their putt with the garbage still on the green? I dont see it

[smashdn]

12 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Kinda saw the comparison coming, can you point to the player reading their putt with the garbage still on the green? I dont see it

 

What does that have to do with anything though?  I don't have a problem with a guy reading his putt and not waiting for them to clear the green.  Keeps the pace of play going.

 

If you think it unprofessional to hit a putt with that on the green then I am in full agreement there.  In either venue, the golfers should wait for them to clear the greens before actually making a stroke on the ball.  I doubt there is a rule about that but it just seems proper to me to do so.

[Ghostwedge]

In town on business, caught on the local news. LIV at Cedar Ridge CC Tulsa, Oklahoma USA. this week. 

Sergio playing some tennis, DJ, Reed  and Bryson getting in some practice.

Gooch got whisked away in a helicopter to another course for his fundraiser Foundation tourney. May catch the Friday round....

 

 

[Motoboss]

On 5/6/2023 at 3:32 PM, Cactus Jack said:

 

 

I’ll watch the majors, but the PGAT has lost me. I’m all in on LIV. Every aspect of LIV is more entertaining for me. I prefer the players, like the teams, but the graphics and commentary have absolutely won me over. If LIV dies, which it may, I’ll be done watching golf. 
 

 

So when the traveling scramble folds you’ll be watching real golf again, don’t lie to yourself. You’ve already done that by hoping on the liv wagon.

[subrew]

Article from another site discussing how the Oklahoma LIV event came to be, and some of the financials:  

 

https://golf.com/news/how-liv-golf-land-cedar-ridge-tulsa/

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:54 AM, billyspan said:

Interesting that there are no Canadian LIV golfers. A country with tons of GREAT courses and 4x the golfing population of Australia...

But the list of top tier pro golfers in Australia is probably 4x the Canadian pro golfers.

[freeze16172002]

23 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

What does that have to do with anything though?  I don't have a problem with a guy reading his putt and not waiting for them to clear the green.  Keeps the pace of play going.

 

If you think it unprofessional to hit a putt with that on the green then I am in full agreement there.  In either venue, the golfers should wait for them to clear the greens before actually making a stroke on the ball.  I doubt there is a rule about that but it just seems proper to me to do so.

Never said you have a problem with it....Keeps the pace going? Thats funny they are allowed to throw garbage all over the place and some how they are worried about the pace of play. Golf but louder yeah sure

Edited May 11, 2023 by freeze16172002

[2bGood]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:43 PM, Golferpaul said:

But the list of top tier pro golfers in Australia is probably 4x the Canadian pro golfers.

 

Not sure the numbers add up, there are more like 1.4x more. 

 

Canadians:

PGAT - 7

LPGA - 4

 

 

Australia:

PGAT - 10

LPGA - 7

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by 2bGood

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Never said you have a problem with it....Keeps the pace going? Thats funny they are allowed to throw garbage all over the place and some how they are worried about the pace of play. Golf but louder yeah sure

 

So your big issue is what then?  He is reading his putt?  They threw cans on the course?  Because that hasn't happened anywhere else before ever.  Might be the shorts?

 

You want to say they ripped off the idea, I can see that argument.

[Holy Moses]

‪Wait I thought Phil said if LIV doesn’t get OWGR points, the majors will adopt their own criteria to get them in. Yeah, that’s not happening. They don’t even want LIV players now. ‬

[ahenderX]

DeChambeau and Jones have removed their names from the Tour lawsuit. They were the last two.

[Titleist99]

9 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Never said you have a problem with it....Keeps the pace going? Thats funny they are allowed to throw garbage all over the place and some how they are worried about the pace of play. Golf but louder yeah sure

Keep in mind that the party hole is a waste management thing. The object is to see how fast the trash can be cleaned up and all recycled. It's a gimmick.

[dalehead]

5 hours ago, ahenderX said:

DeChambeau and Jones have removed their names from the Tour lawsuit. They were the last two.

At this point I think LIV would gladly drop their suit if they could get the PGAT to drop theirs.

[HomaComa]

The lack of buzz around the LIV events is comical. No one is watching it and I highly doubt any top player is joining next year

[billyspan]

3 hours ago, dalehead said:

At this point I think LIV would gladly drop their suit if they could get the PGAT to drop theirs.

LIV's lawsuit came first, correct?  I doubt the PGA Tour will drop theirs first.

 

8/3/22 - 11 players file lawsuits vs PGA Tour.  Later the same month LIV is added as a plaintiff.

 

9/2022 - PGA Tour countersues LIV for tortious interference.

 

 

 

[mitchl]

10 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

‪Wait I thought Phil said if LIV doesn’t get OWGR points, the majors will adopt their own criteria to get them in. Yeah, that’s not happening. They don’t even want LIV players now. ‬

The only part of Phil's logic that doesn't make sense is that the majors have total control now over whether LIV gets OWGR points.   All tour representatives have recused themself in the question of LIV points.     So the majors have their own criteria, it's called the OWGR.

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, mitchl said:

The only part of Phil's logic that doesn't make sense is that the majors have total control now over whether LIV gets OWGR points.   All tour representatives have recused themself in the question of LIV points.     So the majors have their own criteria, it's called the OWGR.

Phil’s reply..🤣

 

[ahenderX]

From Golf Monthly:

'Flawed' LIV Golf Can't Keep Burning Money - PGA Chief Sends Stark Warning

[idrive]

'Flawed' LIV Golf Can't Keep Burning Money - PGA Chief Sends Stark Warning (msn.com)

 

Very good read.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding OWRG points... 

“They had our latest response weeks ago and we haven’t heard back. They have made a bad assumption that this will be a quick process. It never has been. Every application has taken a year-plus as far as I’m aware.

“I can’t speculate (on how long it will take) because they have not responded. They may have to solve things as well, and it’s not clear whether they’re willing to.”

 

“They can fund it for as long as they want to, but no matter how much money you have, at some point burning it doesn’t feel very good. I don’t see they are accomplishing much."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me, the team thing is nothing short of silly, stupid. Even the #1 liv fan here on this board hasn't "picked out a team".

 

So, the question is, how much longer do the Saudi's continue to burn money with absolutely nothing to show for it?

 

 

 

 

 

[billyspan]

Went down the rabbit hole investigating the defunct International Premier Tennis League.  A team-based rival to the ATP. Seems to have folded partially because they couldn't sign a few key big names. I find some interesting parallels with LIV. Perhaps @golfortennis can comment further?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Premier_Tennis_League

[Golferpaul]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:48 AM, 2bGood said:

 

Not sure the number add up, there are more like 1.4x more. 

 

Canadians:

PGAT - 7

LPGA - 4

 

 

Australia:

PGAT - 10

LPGA - 7

 

I said top tier.  So, Stuart Appleby (17 wins), Bruce Crampton (44), Kel Nagle (86), David Graham (32 and 2 majors), Elkington (17 and one major), Ogilvy (12 and one major), Scott (29 and one major), Day (16 and one major), and Norman (88 and two majors).

 

There at maybe 10 Australians better than any Canadian ever.

[Golferpaul]

18 hours ago, mitchl said:

The only part of Phil's logic that doesn't make sense is that the majors have total control now over whether LIV gets OWGR points.   All tour representatives have recused themself in the question of LIV points.     So the majors have their own criteria, it's called the OWGR.

Actually, the majors have several criteria. One of which is OWGR.

[Muffy]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Phil’s reply..🤣

 

It is not fair because it is retroactive.  

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, billyspan said:

Went down the rabbit hole investigating the defunct International Premier Tennis League.  A team-based rival to the ATP. Seems to have folded partially because they couldn't sign a few key big names. I find some interesting parallels with LIV. Perhaps @golfortennis can comment further?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Premier_Tennis_League

 

You know as much as I do, possibly more, about that league.  There was hardly any coverage hear so I never really saw much of it.  Looking at timing, and Federer's involvement, I wonder if the Laver Cup took his attention(and whatever financial backing he might have brought).

 

What I can tell you is there has been a push for team tennis in some way shape or form since at least the 70s.  It was a big thing Billy Jean King tried to push.  Heck Elton John's Philadelphia Freedom is a nod to her team.  There was some success of WTT in the 70s, and top players have played some over the years, but it just has never really caught on.  I don't know that Europe and SA have the same appetite for tennis "teams", and for 20 years the main stars have been Europeans. 

 

But I haven't really watched either IPTL or WTT.