LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[tiderider]

3 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

As someone who will flip on LIV, but am really just a golf fan, I'd push back on a few things.  

 

1) His point about Tiger being the first guy who really got paid up front and guys like Scheffler, Rory, JT, etc. should be paid to show up is absolutely right.  The ARE the product and the histrionics Monahan went through when he saw big names leaving proved that.  Most of the other guys only drive some ratings if they are a cinderella story (Michael Block) or do something magical to win a round.  Literally nobody cares when a Keith Mitchell type wins.

 

2) Format - Week to week, I agree that the PGA format is the best for producing drama and tension as the week goes on for FANS.  For PLAYERS most of these guys are playing to qualify for majors or keep their card.  They really don't care about winning the Rocket Mortgage Classic in and of itself.  For guys who are SOLELY focussed on legacy and majors, LIV is a breath of fresh air - as Brooks said, it's like playing a round with your boys.  I'd go so far as to say it's probably the perfect setting for Rory to recharge and get back in a major groove. 

 

3) Love the shotgun start, but think it should only be used the first 2 days with the final round being a traditional start.  In fact, I think the PGA should adopt it for Thursday and Friday before the cut and then play a traditional start on the weekend.  It would give them way more flexibility with weather issues. 
 

4) Haven't heard a word from Normal in at least a month.  But if you started an ice cream truck and dressed as Skeletor, it would be a wild success.

 the argument that tiger's initial money is proof that liv players won't take days off is misguided at best ... they are playing the same 47 people 14 times a year, and are guaranteed a ton of money regardless of their play ... tiger's money was endorsement money given to someone who had already won 6 straight usga titles ... he'd already proven himself ... golf is different from other sports, and that's what makes it somewhat unique as competitive entertainment ... and there's plenty of pushback against team players with guaranteed money for taking nights off, load management, etc ... plenty of high draft nfl players that never put in the work once they got their guaranteed portion ... plenty of nba players that take nights off or put forth no effort on defense or "manage" their load in creative ways ... golfers take a round off? ... your income drops ... golfers don't put in the work before a tournament? ... you drop strokes and money ... you lose income or playing rights ... brooks isn't the best reference for people to use if they want to make an argument for liv's validity ... he joined because he didn't know if his injury would ever heal ... he's as much stated that ... 

[grm24]

2 hours ago, CaseyC said:

 

The above makes LIV's goal of "Team Golf" less viable.     For Brooks, the Majors are far more important than his team.  He didn't wear his Teams logos at either The Masters or the PGA.

And he doesn't wear his team logos while playing LIV.

[bscinstnct]

Ya ok Phil, what you left out is that EVERY top guy on LIV, including yourself, spent many years grinding and working their butts off, THEN got huge payoffs (like you), after they already established great accomplishment on the pga tour and won majors. 
 

BK toiled in anonymity on the B-league Euro tour, then the Euro, then the pga tour, right Phil? He didn’t just go play a no cut exhibition tour and POOF, now he’s a major winner.

 

Unreal…

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by bscinstnct

[billyspan]

2 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

At this point it’s safe to say the players that matter are unanimous in that the OWGR results are not accurate. The system changed, and all everyone wants   Are accurate rankings. 

@Cactus Jack I would say that no ranking system is "accurate".  They each have flaws.  However, I get your larger point that the OWGR is the only one that "counts".  You'll see the same arguments for the old college football BCS and now playoff rankings....

 

See the other thread linked below.  The GW/Sagarin ratings include LIV and have Koepka outside the top 50!!

 

[billyspan]

14 hours ago, HomaComa said:

 

I could name a handful of reasons why LIV is inferior:

 

1. Lack of Cuts

2. Crappy Venues

3. Guys just don't care

4. Also you can't say a tour has some of the best players in the world when Chase Koepka and Pat Perez are playing in every event.

 

Also why can't we hold LIV on the same pedestal as the tour? LIV wants OWGR points and other perks that come with the tour but they refuse to even make an effort to meet the requirements.

I'm no LIV supporter, but the PGA Tour (and the other worldwide OWGR tours) suffer from crappy venues as well. 

 

Also, I think your points #1 & #3 go hand in hand.  I saw some real emotion out there at Oak Hill from players that missed the cut by 1 stroke.  Getting cut takes a HUGE psychological toll on players.  You go home with nothing.  Players that are out of it after round 1 or 2 can coast to the finish and not deal with the emotions/toll/grind of the cut and $ loss.

 

I do agree the the SOF numbers would be ugly for LIV events.  You see that represented in DATA GOLF rankings.

[pingbling23]

2 hours ago, HomaComa said:

Perez was in the bottom 10 in like 5 events last year

Ok?  And he would still be playing the pga tour if not for LIV.  You can’t shame one tour and prop the other for quality.  Every tour has its apex players and players that are filler.

[pingbling23]

24 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Ya ok Phil, what you left out is that EVERY top guy on LIV, including yourself, spent many years grinding and working their butts off, THEN got huge payoffs (like you), after they already established great accomplishment on the pga tour and won majors. 
 

BK toiled in anonymity on the B-league Euro tour, then the Euro, then the pga tour, right Phil? He didn’t just go play a no cut exhibition tour and POOF, now he’s a major winner.

 

Unreal…

 

 

Obviously that wasn’t Phil’s point.  He’s spot on with this and will make some other pga guys or future stars think about it.

[jdl]

2 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

At this point it’s safe to say the players that matter are unanimous in that the OWGR results are not accurate. The system changed, and all everyone wants   Are accurate rankings. 

Nothing about the system changed to make it less accurate. Players leaving for a tour that doesn't comply with OWGR specs have caused their rankings drop because they don't play in events that get points. They seem to have plans for a qualification system for 2024, so maybe that will be enough for OWGR to start giving points, appropriately scaled for the smaller fields and fewer holes played.

[billyspan]

I will add that I do not like how the PGA Tour is also moving towards more "closed" tournaments (WGC, designated events).  It wasn't that long ago that anyone with the right index could try to qualify for the Los Angeles Open, the Greater Greensboro Open, etc.  You still have some Monday qualifying events, but the number is shrinking.  Remember that these were tournaments first and have become money making entertainment entities in the Tiger-era.  I'll argue the the National Opens and PGA Championships of the world remain tournaments first and happen to offer a lot of entertainment value.  I'm glad that the Majors do not have a corporate title sponsor!

[ahenderX]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Ya ok Phil, what you left out is that EVERY top guy on LIV, including yourself, spent many years grinding and working their butts off, THEN got huge payoffs (like you), after they already established great accomplishment on the pga tour and won majors. 
 

BK toiled in anonymity on the B-league Euro tour, then the Euro, then the pga tour, right Phil? He didn’t just go play a no cut exhibition tour and POOF, now he’s a major winner.

 

Unreal…

 

 

This year there were supposed to be 14 LIV team events and multiple full field LIV International Series events, which top LIV players were required to attend. The purpose was to get to the 75 player minimum per event, an OWGR requirement.

Edited May 24, 2023 by ahenderX

[soap1984]

19 hours ago, golfheaven69 said:

No one is denying there are a handful of really good players in the Saudi League. Along with a ton of has beens chasing the dollar. The panic is setting in for the top guys and now is not the time for the PGA Tour to give them an inch. The guys who left took the cash now want equal treatment from the US Tour. Continue to put the screws to them until the Saudi League crashes and they have no where to turn. They can count their cash. 

They don't care about the pga tour this is about majors and the ryder cup. Maybe Brooks will leave maybe he won't, the point is simply that no one cares about most of the pga tour events and everyone cares about the majors. The majors are not the pga nor is the ryder cup. The ladies play for aramco money and no one cares or says they shouldn't play in majors. The best players play every LIV event, the best players on the pga tour do not. If an American amateur came in and won every major next year but didn't want to play on any tour, you're not putting him on the US RC team because he's not on the pga tour? It makes no sense. The Players aren't even pretending to care any more. 

[soap1984]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

And he doesn't wear his team logos while playing LIV.

He has a deal with Nike I believe where it has to be the only logo. He may well want to go back but he never seemed to care about regular events. Talk about legacy is massively overrated there is no decision there; winning regular tour events adds nothing to legacy at this point. Majors are the only thing that matters. Ask Rory if he'd give up 15 pga tour wins to get a masters...if you get 12 majors you're a legend if you won no tour events. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by soap1984

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Ya ok Phil, what you left out is that EVERY top guy on LIV, including yourself, spent many years grinding and working their butts off, THEN got huge payoffs (like you), after they already established great accomplishment on the pga tour and won majors. 
 

BK toiled in anonymity on the B-league Euro tour, then the Euro, then the pga tour, right Phil? He didn’t just go play a no cut exhibition tour and POOF, now he’s a major winner.

 

Unreal…

 

 

How many people could you make the case this even applies to?   

 

Maybe Brooks, Bryson and Phil?   Possibly Patrick Reed.   Bryson and Brooks are coming off injuries and still seem to have some hunger to prove themselves.  Maybe you could make the case it is easier to stay healthy on liv.  Reed seems motivated to play into his heel role and enjoys pissing everyone off.

 

Cam Smith and DJ both seem to have taken a step back in their competiveness and both apparently value their lifestyle over being a competitive golfer and liv has afforded them the ability to get away from the grind and just get buy on their natural talents.

 

I don't see any others making much noise in the majors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

And he doesn't wear his team logos while playing LIV.

Brooks has a Nike contact that was in place before LIV and Nike is one of the few companies that hasn’t exiled their players. BK is just honoring that contract. 

[smashdn]

9 hours ago, Bye said:

There is a system. It seems there is an expectation that the system will just adapt. 

 

Garcia has just gone through qualifying for the US Open. They can go to Open Qualifying if they want to. 

 

He also said equitable.  That it is not currently

 

https://www.golflink.com/list_113_rules-qualify-us-golf-open.html  (sorry for the formatting in the quote)

8  Winners of the Players Championship the last three years (including current year)
9	Winner of the most recent European Tour BMW PGA Championship
10	Those players who qualified for the previous season-ending Tour Championship
11	Multiple winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the FedEx Cup from the conclusion of the previous U.S. Open to the current year U.S. Open

 

 

We can argue the merits and numbers of players from LIV who should or should not be afforded similar auto qualifying, I am just pointing out that auto qualifying exists according to your winning PGAT events (Players, TC) and DWPT.

 

You could say something along the lines of "The individual top points earner of the LIV Tour" and it would be equitable.  In no sense am I suggesting that LIV should be awarded the same number of auto qualifying positions.

 

 

[subrew]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

And he doesn't wear his team logos while playing LIV.

 

Correct.  He still has his Nike deal, which tends be Nike and nothing else allowed.  Nelly's Nike deal (the newest to have been signed) seems to have been written to allow for her Richard Mille sponsorship on a shoulder.  

[smashdn]

22 hours ago, CaseyC said:

He didn't wear his Teams logos at either The Masters or the PGA.

 

Those that still have equipment and apparel sponsorships that pre-empt the LIV logo stuff still wear what they are contractually obligated to.  Nike apparel sponsorships don't allow you to wear other logos, typically.

Edited May 25, 2023 by smashdn

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Ya ok Phil, what you left out is that EVERY top guy on LIV, including yourself, spent many years grinding and working their butts off, THEN got huge payoffs (like you), after they already established great accomplishment on the pga tour and won majors. 
 

BK toiled in anonymity on the B-league Euro tour, then the Euro, then the pga tour, right Phil? He didn’t just go play a no cut exhibition tour and POOF, now he’s a major winner.

 

Unreal…

 

 

I used to be the largest Phil fan on earth. Part of me still is on some level.    But at this point he’s drinking his own bath water.  Out to lunch.  Embarrassing himself. And me for having cheered him for so long.  

[HomaComa]

17 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

LIV Golf, not the “Saudi League.”
 

Nobody to wants to return to the PGAT. Folks want a fair and equitable shot to qualify for the majors. 

It’s called the OWGR. 

[SirFuego]

6 hours ago, leezer99 said:

Question about relegation. 

 

Is there someplace or someone that is tracking which LIV players are facing relegation as we head into the halfway point in the season?  It's hard to understand who is on the chopping block since I don't know who has a contract and who are the unsigned players.

 

My understanding is that the bottom 24 are facing the axe but there are a bunch of captains and stuff in that lower tier. Is the bottom 24 shuffled to include anyone without a contract or is it strictly just the worst of LIV? 

 

If anything I'd think LIV would be promoting this similarly to how we watch the cut line at PGAT events.

The standings on the website are about as close as you can get right now:
https://www.livgolf.com/standings-2023

 

My understanding is 44 people survive relegation every year and those under contract through next season are guaranteed a spot.  The top 24 players "stay" on their current team, and the other 20 are eligible to play in LIV golf events, but can sign with any team.  I'm not entirely clear what this means because I've seen comments in articles about how those 20 folks are not "guaranteed" to play in any given tournament the next season.  Perhaps this gives some options to teams to sign players not otherwise eligible to play in LIV golf events (i.e. a college grad, a current PGA Tour, current DP Tour player, etc)?  I'm also not sure what happens if one of the 20 players who has a contract through next season doesn't get any "offers" to join a new team?

 

Going back to the relegation, assuming that Kaymer and Westwood are signed through next year, that moves the "relegation line" to 42 -- where Ancer is currently at.  If he's also signed through next season, that moves the line up to 41.  So given that we don't really know who is and isn't signed through next season, we really don't know who would be relegated if the season ended today.

[One Putter]

Lots being made about Brooks, but if liv had their way you would never hear about a guy like Michael Block because he wouldn't be given an opportunity. Block is honestly more of a story than Brooks.

[HomaComa]

4 hours ago, billyspan said:

I will add that I do not like how the PGA Tour is also moving towards more "closed" tournaments (WGC, designated events).  It wasn't that long ago that anyone with the right index could try to qualify for the Los Angeles Open, the Greater Greensboro Open, etc.  You still have some Monday qualifying events, but the number is shrinking.  Remember that these were tournaments first and have become money making entertainment entities in the Tiger-era.  I'll argue the the National Opens and PGA Championships of the world remain tournaments first and happen to offer a lot of entertainment value.  I'm glad that the Majors do not have a corporate title sponsor!

This is an absolutely stupid move IMO. Basically bringing back the WGC’s 

[cohenfive]

I think LIV events should have OWGR points attached, but they should be relative to full field PGA tour events. Deduct for smaller field, deduct for no cut, deduct for 54 holes, deduct for lack of depth of the field...you probably end up with LIV events at 25% of the big full field pga events. That sounds about right to me...plus they get points for the majors just like everyone else. The problem is, LIV thinks its little tournaments deserve the same points as PGA events...they do not.

[tiderider]

5 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Ok?  And he would still be playing the pga tour if not for LIV.  You can’t shame one tour and prop the other for quality.  Every tour has its apex players and players that are filler.

how do you know he'd still be playing the tour? ... his last four years starting with 18/19 are 125/90/80/132 ... he'd still be playing in some capacity, but being a full-fledged member of the pgat was far from a given for perez ... he's a journeyman, and a solid professional golfer, but his status on the tour was waning ... he cashed in his status as a long time member, and there's nothing wrong with that (outside of the argument against the source) ... and he cashed it in for less competition and guaranteed money/ plain and simple ... if liv's plan had come to fruition, he wouldn't be on their radar ... 

[subrew]

1 hour ago, cohenfive said:

I think LIV events should have OWGR points attached, but they should be relative to full field PGA tour events. Deduct for smaller field, deduct for no cut, deduct for 54 holes, deduct for lack of depth of the field...you probably end up with LIV events at 25% of the big full field pga events. That sounds about right to me...plus they get points for the majors just like everyone else. The problem is, LIV thinks its little tournaments deserve the same points as PGA events...they do not.

 

I know it is popular to say they should get points, but then deduct a % for things like no cut, smaller field, only 54 holes etc., but the OWGR already awards points to plenty of 54 hole event.  And non-cut events.  And events with limited fields.  Those events don't get hit with an arbitrary "deduct 25% because of this" thing.  The points tends to be reduced because of things like strength of field ratings.  Having only 48 players already reduces points.  

 

-The week of LIV's inaugural event in London last year, nine events received OWGR points.  Four of them were 54 hole events.

 

-Plenty of no cut events receive OWGR, including PGAT events.  Prime example, Jon Rahm won the Sentry Tournament of Champions in Week 1.  It only had 37 players, and was no cut.  He earned 37.67 points for the win.  That was more than Jason Day earned winning at the Byron Nelson (36.14 points)  That was more than T4 got at the PGA Championships this past weekend.  

 

-Speaking of limited fields, Tiger's Hero World challenge hit and giggle was won by Viktor Hovland the past two years.  Only 20 players, invited by Tiger.  Viktor earned 29.8 points.  More than what Tony Finau won at the Mexico Open (29.77) which was a full-field, with cut event.

 

 

Someone calc'd out what the strength of field would be for a LIV event mid-way through last season.  It was the equivalent of like a off-weekend PGAT event without many top players.  So they (LIV) would already be taking a points hit because their strength of field rating wouldn't be high.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by subrew

[tleader]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I used to be the largest Phil fan on earth. Part of me still is on some level.    But at this point he’s drinking his own bath water.  Out to lunch.  Embarrassing himself. And me for having cheered him for so long.  

it’s really sad to see.   

[bscinstnct]

8 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Obviously that wasn’t Phil’s point.  He’s spot on with this and will make some other pga guys or future stars think about it.

 

Cmon pb. The ONLY reason any of the top guys went to LIVis for the guaranteed 150MM + payoff. And that’s the only reason any would go in the future. But who knows if they’re still cutting those checks given how bad it’s doing commercially. 

 

Or are you suggesting BK, DJ, BD, or even Phil himself went because it’s a great way to win majors?!

 

How about the “future stars” you mention?

 

David Puig? Turk Pettit? James Piot?

How they gonna ever win a major if they don’t even play 4 rounds or have to make a cut.

 

Brooks ate crackers and shlepped around in trains all over Europe to make a cut and win 10k so he can buy a shepherds pie for dinner. 
 

That’s how he got to where he is.
 

Not flying private jets, attending pre event galas, sucking down cocktail shrimp, and playing 3 rounds with music blasting  ; )

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by bscinstnct

[pingbling23]

2 hours ago, tiderider said:

how do you know he'd still be playing the tour? ... his last four years starting with 18/19 are 125/90/80/132 ... he'd still be playing in some capacity, but being a full-fledged member of the pgat was far from a given for perez ... he's a journeyman, and a solid professional golfer, but his status on the tour was waning ... he cashed in his status as a long time member, and there's nothing wrong with that (outside of the argument against the source) ... and he cashed it in for less competition and guaranteed money/ plain and simple ... if liv's plan had come to fruition, he wouldn't be on their radar ... 

the point is quality of the player.  Him being on LIV is no different if he was on the pga tour still, how he was in the recent past, or how there are others of similar quality still playing on the pga tour.

[golfheaven69]

47 minutes ago, tleader said:

it’s really sad to see.   

Yep, he has enough money. Destroyed his legacy but that’s Phil. All about him. 

[HomaComa]

14 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I know it is popular to say they should get points, but then deduct a % for things like no cut, smaller field, only 54 holes etc., but the OWGR already awards points to plenty of 54 hole event.  And non-cut events.  And events with limited fields.  Those events don't get hit with an arbitrary "deduct 25% because of this" thing.  The points tends to be reduced because of things like strength of field ratings.  Having only 48 players already reduces points.  

 

-The week of LIV's inaugural event in London last year, nine events received OWGR points.  Four of them were 54 hole events.

 

-Plenty of no cut events receive OWGR, including PGAT events.  Prime example, Jon Rahm won the Sentry Tournament of Champions in Week 1.  It only had 37 players, and was no cut.  He earned 37.67 points for the win.  That was more than Jason Day earned winning at the Byron Nelson (36.14 points)  That was more than T4 got at the PGA Championships this past weekend.  

 

-Speaking of limited fields, Tiger's Hero World challenge hit and giggle was won by Viktor Hovland the past two years.  Only 20 players, invited by Tiger.  Viktor earned 29.8 points.  More than what Tony Finau won at the Mexico Open (29.77) which was a full-field, with cut event.

 

 

Someone calc'd out what the strength of field would be for a LIV event mid-way through last season.  It was the equivalent of like a off-weekend PGAT event without many top players.  So they (LIV) would already be taking a points hit because their strength of field rating wouldn't be high.  

 

 

 

 

 

I did a little bit of research on those tours and one these 54 hole tours is the "GIRA De Golf Professional Mexicana". This particular tour has fields of 70+ players and has a 36-hole cut unlike LIV.

Edited May 25, 2023 by HomaComa