LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[bekgolf]

7 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I haven't seen a ton of details here. I imagine it would work like a typical private company ESOP. It's not a public company so players won't be able to buy and sell in an active market. In a traditional ESOP, a company typically buys back shares from employees at retirement. In the VC world, employees frequently take loans against their shares to get liquidity. This is how Elon lives a lavish lifestyle despite taking a $1 salary from Tesla. He simply takes tax free distributions via loans from private lenders.

 

I have no idea how players will earn shares, though I don't think that's too hard to figure out. Some formula based on time and performance. Kept your card for 5 years? Congrats, you've earned shares! Won the tour championship? Congrats, here's an equity grant. Etc.  

 

This isn't a roundabout way for Jay to compensate top players. Its a clear, transparent, and very direct way for Jay to compensate top players. I imagine initial grants are going to be based on a players track record, tenure, and possibly, what they turned down from LIV. Moving forward I imagine is will be very time + performance oriented.    

 

It sounds like currency, or tulip bulbs.  It's worth the confidence a buyer has in it to be worth something at a future time.

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I like this.

 

But not specific to you, where is the ROI coming from for this pool of investors? That's the HUGE unanswered question in all of this. Do they somehow think they can create a new golf product that golf fans are suddenly going to turn lunatic fans like the NFL and dump crazy sums of money to watch? Or sponsors willing to dump more money into the sport? If so they're smokin dope. 

 

You're guess is as good as mine. 

 

I think there is some low hanging fruit. The quality of the broadcast for the Masters or the Players is so far beyond a typical tour event. Simply improving the TV product would attract more viewers. Could you imagine if the NFL or NBA did "playing through" or had the same commercial load? Yikes. Nobody would tune into CBS or Fox. We'd all be watching Red Zone. 

 

I also think there is a hospitality and leisure play. I could imagine them buying out a certain individual's properties and rebranding or developing Bandon Dunes like destinations. 

 

Who knows. I'm just pretty confident that running back the old playbook of the pre-LIV days or trying to execute the LIV playbook isn't going to get it done. You can't ask sponsors for $10M purses w/ weak fields. Those days are on the endangered species list.  

Edited March 20 by Dutch1008

[Dutch1008]

27 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

It sounds like currency, or tulip bulbs.  It's worth the confidence a buyer has in it to be worth something at a future time.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Before LIV came around the PGAT was a profitable endeavor with a $400M reserve fund and the most generous pension in sports. Having an equity interest in a profitable private company is certainly better than speculating on flowers 😉

 

The question is whether or not this influx of irrational money and major changes to the sport have permanently broken the business model.   

[bekgolf]

4 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I wouldn't go that far. Before LIV came around the PGAT was a profitable endeavor with a $400M reserve fund and the most generous pension in sports. Having an equity interest in a profitable private company is certainly better than speculating on flowers 😉

 

The question is whether or not this influx of irrational money and major changes to the sport have permanently broken the business model.   

 

How do they keep up with the unsustainable example that was set over the last few years?  Maybe the sports group has it figured out?  Maybe there is a market for $250 PGA jackets with a favorite player on the back?  I don't know.

 

Everything was fine until a few years ago, agree with you on that.

 

They can't compete with unlimited funds being controlled by someone who has no idea of the value of money.  I really hope it all works out.

[One Putter]

I think what people are going to realize is that while the top golfers do have a certain value, they are mostly interchangeable. There's so many good players right now. The true value is in the venues the PGAT is offering. Pebble, Torrey, Arnold's Place, Sawgrass, and all these historical golf courses are controlled by the PGAT. The players that play and win at these places are considered to be the best. Nobody cares about the venues LIV is offering. What LIV wants is their players in the historical venues. And I don't see how you can allow that if you are the PGAT.

Edited March 20 by One Putter

[subrew]

9 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

PGA has John Deere ... LIV Golf has JCB.

 

 

I've seen a fair bit of YT golf from JCB, and it looks like a great course.  The Par 3 17th should be a fun watch:

 

 

Edited March 20 by subrew

[bscinstnct]

 

[tomjas]

1 hour ago, One Putter said:

I think what people are going to realize is that while the top golfers do have a certain value, they are mostly interchangeable. There's so many good players right now. The true value is in the venues the PGAT is offering. Pebble, Torrey, Arnold's Place, Sawgrass, and all these historical golf courses are controlled by the PGAT. The players that play and win at these places are considered to be the best. Nobody cares about the venues LIV is offering. What LIV wants is their players in the historical venues. And I don't see how you can allow that if you are the PGAT.

LIV’s business model isn’t focused upon America alone 

[Dutch1008]

15 minutes ago, tomjas said:

LIV’s business model isn’t focused upon America alone 

 

LIV doesn't have a business model. Unless you consider 1,500 disinterested Saudi watching DJ half a** it around King Abdullah Economic City a business model 🤣

 

The PIF on the other hand does have a business model. Cause disruption by lighting money on fire until you get a seat at the table. If you think they care about growing the game in Australia or Singapore, you're a sucker. 

[pingbling23]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I’d love to see that list.  Reasoning is Kaymer and McDowell came to mind immediately and neither was in the top 100 for first LIV event.  
 

Maybe your popularity question is fans are fickle.  If you’re a Red Sox fan and your favorite signs with the Yankees you likely won’t be a fan of his any longer.

 

I like DJ for example.  Not any longer.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/03/05/owgr-liv-official-world-golf-ranking-news/

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I've seen a fair bit of YT golf from JCB, and it looks like a great course.  The Par 3 17th should be a fun watch:

 

 

 

 

JCB has a large presence in Saudi Arabia.

 

Shiels played there a couple years ago, looked interesting.  If I want to see the course, I'll rewatch that!

[Hawkeye77]

31 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

LIV doesn't have a business model. Unless you consider 1,500 disinterested Saudi watching DJ half a** it around King Abdullah Economic City a business model 🤣

 

The PIF on the other hand does have a business model. Cause disruption by lighting money on fire until you get a seat at the table. If you think they care about growing the game in Australia or Singapore, you're a sucker. 

It absolutely doesn't care about the game of golf except as a means to an end.  Pretty obvious.

[tomjas]

47 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

LIV doesn't have a business model. Unless you consider 1,500 disinterested Saudi watching DJ half a** it around King Abdullah Economic City a business model 🤣

 

The PIF on the other hand does have a business model. Cause disruption by lighting money on fire until you get a seat at the table. If you think they care about growing the game in Australia or Singapore, you're a sucker. 

Yeah, PIF & LIV are staffed by really stupid people whose main KPI is how much money they can waste 

 

Meanwhile, the business savants on the other side are paying Jay Monahan $18 million p.a.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I think there is some low hanging fruit. The quality of the broadcast for the Masters or the Players is so far beyond a typical tour event. Simply improving the TV product would attract more viewers. Could you imagine if the NFL or NBA did "playing through" or had the same commercial load? Yikes. Nobody would tune into CBS or Fox. We'd all be watching Red Zone. 

  

 

I dunno, have you watched an NFL broadcast? Score, go to commercial. Kick off the ball, go to commercial. Official review? Go to commercial. Coach calls a timeout? Go to commercial. Injury? Go to commercial. They get away with it because people love the sport so much that they accept the commercials.

 

I don't really watch NBA, but I know in college basketball they have predictably scheduled media timeouts. In a 20-minute half, any stoppage of play after each 4-minute interval (i.e. the under-16, under-12, under-8, and under-4 minute marks) cause a timeout for TV commercials. And savvy coaches know this and strategically use their timeouts when they want MORE stoppages (i.e. if the other team is going on a run) that they might call a timeout with 12:10 on the clock knowing that they'll get their timeout and then there will be a media timeout at the next stoppage as well. 

 

It's amazing how BORING those sports can be in person when you realize how much time is lost so that the viewers at home can watching commercials lol...

 

The issue with golf (much like soccer or auto racing) is that there aren't really stoppages of play. So every commercial would cause you to miss potential action, whereas other sports (football/basketball) they'll stop the action until the commercials are over before resuming play. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, tomjas said:

Sunday’s viewership of Players was a 10 year low

 

Not so strong after all

Did you read that statement at all?   PGA our may be down but it’s still massively greater than the stagnant low numbers LIV “achieves”.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

LIV’s business model isn’t focused upon America alone 

 

Yeah, because a business model based on a very limited number of tournaments where close to half of them are outside the time zone of half the world's golfers makes sense 😂

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I like this.

 

But not specific to you, where is the ROI coming from for this pool of investors? That's the HUGE unanswered question in all of this. Do they somehow think they can create a new golf product that golf fans are suddenly going to turn lunatic fans like the NFL and dump crazy sums of money to watch? Or sponsors willing to dump more money into the sport? If so they're smokin dope. 

Why is it such a large unknown?  The entity known as PGA Tour Enterprises is a for profit separate from the tour.  It consists of the TPC courses, PGA tour licensing such as PGA Superstore and much much more. With the intent to vastly grow that side of the business.

[tomjas]

15 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Did you read that statement at all?   PGA our may be down but it’s still massively greater than the stagnant low numbers LIV “achieves”.

So?

 

Not my money 

[tomjas]

15 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yeah, because a business model based on a very limited number of tournaments where close to half of them are outside the time zone of half the world's golfers makes sense 😂

Asia has over 10* the population of the US

 

If you don’t think that there’s massive untapped potential there then don’t invest in LIV

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Asia has over 10* the population of the US

 

If you don’t think that there’s massive untapped potential there then don’t invest in LIV

 

Upthread I talked about that. US+Euro is ~700M people or so last I looked. China+India (close enough time zones) is 2.8B, and that doesn't include the rest of Southeast Asia, Aus/NZ, Japan, etc. MASSIVE untapped potential.

 

But at the current point they don't have golf courses to support their population nor the demand from golfers to build more. We're talking a 1+ generation effort for them to get anywhere near the North American + Europe levels of golf participation. 

 

If that's what LIV is banking on, they're certainly not over in China and India building the courses that will grow the participation and create a bunch of new fans of professional golf. 

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Upthread I talked about that. US+Euro is ~700M people or so last I looked. China+India (close enough time zones) is 2.8B, and that doesn't include the rest of Southeast Asia, Aus/NZ, Japan, etc. MASSIVE untapped potential.

 

But at the current point they don't have golf courses to support their population nor the demand from golfers to build more. We're talking a 1+ generation effort for them to get anywhere near the North American + Europe levels of golf participation. 

 

If that's what LIV is banking on, they're certainly not over in China and India building the courses that will grow the participation and create a bunch of new fans of professional golf. 

PIF/LIV is only interested in selling Franchises and the only way to do that is align with the PGAT. I think that is what they're banking on.

 

That would make sense to me.

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

PIF/LIV is only interested in selling Franchises and the only way to do that is align with the PGAT. I think that is what they're banking on.

 

That would make sense to me.

 

You don't think their goal is growing the game globally? 😂

[BlackDiamondPar5]

34 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why is it such a large unknown?  The entity known as PGA Tour Enterprises is a for profit separate from the tour.  It consists of the TPC courses, PGA tour licensing such as PGA Superstore and much much more. With the intent to vastly grow that side of the business.

Grow what specifically? 

[tomjas]

18 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Upthread I talked about that. US+Euro is ~700M people or so last I looked. China+India (close enough time zones) is 2.8B, and that doesn't include the rest of Southeast Asia, Aus/NZ, Japan, etc. MASSIVE untapped potential.

 

But at the current point they don't have golf courses to support their population nor the demand from golfers to build more. We're talking a 1+ generation effort for them to get anywhere near the North American + Europe levels of golf participation. 

 

If that's what LIV is banking on, they're certainly not over in China and India building the courses that will grow the participation and create a bunch of new fans of professional golf. 

LIV and the Asian Tour are expanding their presence in Europe (and Central & South America) as well 

 

Obviously too early to tell whether it will work but they will have the first global tour sooner rather than later 

 

My view is that their biggest weakness is reliance upon US talent as they don’t need to travel atm 

 

 

[wedgegame]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I dunno, have you watched an NFL broadcast? Score, go to commercial. Kick off the ball, go to commercial. Official review? Go to commercial. Coach calls a timeout? Go to commercial. Injury? Go to commercial. They get away with it because people love the sport so much that they accept the commercials.

 

The difference is that when golf goes to commercials there are balls in the air and putts being made, when the NFL goes to commercials the audience isn't missing any of the action on the field. 

 

Edit: which is the point you were making, and I agree.

Edited March 21 by wedgegame

[bekgolf]

51 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

The issue with golf (much like soccer or auto racing) is that there aren't really stoppages of play. So every commercial would cause you to miss potential action, whereas other sports (football/basketball) they'll stop the action until the commercials are over before resuming play. 

 

Golf uses the tape delay method.

[wedgegame]

On 3/19/2024 at 1:02 PM, Cactus Jack said:

If the players don’t matter, then the PGAT has an undisclosed critical operating problem. They are straight losing fans and cannot recapture them. Bringing back LIV guys back won’t fix the structural and product issues. My guess is the PGAT has accelerated negotiations with PIF to secure capital under the guise of bringing all the players back together. Simply put, something needs to happen soon. 
 

 

I'm not going to say this is good for the PGAT, but YoY comparisons can be a little misleading.  For instance last year's Players final round didn't take place on St. Patrick's Day which is one of the bigger party holidays in the US. I imagine some portion of the audience that watched last year was probably engaged in some other non golf watching festivities this year. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

2 hours ago, tomjas said:

LIV’s business model isn’t focused upon America alone 

Well the numbers say globally, outside the USA, it's an even bigger flop. 

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Grow what specifically? 

There are no specifics. yet.🤣

[Titleist99]

14 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

 

I'm not going to say this is good for the PGAT, but YoY comparisons can be a little misleading.  For instance last year's Players final round didn't take place on St. Patrick's Day which is one of the bigger party holidays in the US. I imagine some portion of the audience that watched last year was probably engaged in some other non golf watching festivities this year. 

There's plenty of reasons for the disparity in the numbers. The pertinent number is the 3.5M that watched Scheffler's triumphant victory on Sunday.