LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[italianstallion]

5 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

 

I don't like/can't stand the smell emanating from the local water treatment plant when I drive by. I can hold my breath for a little bit, but that smell has attached itself to every molecule of air in a 2 mile radius, and at some point I need to breathe. Put more simply, its hard to ignore something when its taken hold/trying to take hold of the only option I have. 

 

45 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I’m not sure how tour events work exactly but 

 

One way to cooperate without doin a deal would be to have Aramco sponsor an event(s), put up the purses and an advertising commitment, then the pga tour benefits from the media rights

 

Top guys from both tours play and lots of people will watch

 

 

 

 

 

I'd prefer this arrangement. I could avoid watching those events and get back to watching the other PGA TOUR events not sponsored by Aramco. 

[bekgolf]

3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

If PIF goes and signs Homa, Aberg, Hovland next year, ratings and revenues just keep going south 

 

Eventually there’s a rush out the door. Rory, Hideki, Xander 

 

The tour could be up the proverbial creek with no paddle in 5 years 

 

It will still be around, but a shadow of what it was

 

Sign everyone on tour and Liv will still fail. 

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

 

I don't like/can't stand the smell emanating from the local water treatment plant when I drive by. I can hold my breath for a little bit, but that smell has attached itself to every molecule of air in a 2 mile radius, and at some point I need to breathe. Put more simply, its hard to ignore something when its taken hold/trying to take hold of the only option I have. 

 

 

I'd prefer this arrangement. I could avoid watching those events and get back to watching the other PGA TOUR events not sponsored by Aramco. 

I say u should just move or perhaps take an alternate route maybe 🤷🏼‍♂️ 😜

 

I do appreciate that analogy though. A for effort/creativity 😊

 

 

[scotee]

8 minutes ago, kmbean said:

Jon Rahm going to a competitor and constantly stating how much he misses working for his old employer.  Not sure why he doesn’t just shut it and enjoy his money, which seemed very important during his decision making process.

 

Exactly. He and most of the others knew what they were giving up. When you remember what Jon said before he defected it is so obviously phoney the things he now says.

 

 

[bekgolf]

12 minutes ago, TiScape said:

And continually posting in this thread will help save the PGAT? Unfortunately not.
I get it and I made it clear initially how I felt. After a while it (to me anyway) feels like beating ur head against the wall. 

 

Why do you think the pro Liv guys are here?  Why do new ones pop up every so often with the same talking points? 

 

It really helps to know that I'm not alone in wanting the tour to live, I don't want Liv to destroy the PGA Tour.  I'm not someone who just says "it's the only golf on so I'll watch it" and I'm fairly certain that most PGA Tour fans feel the same way.

[bscinstnct]

3 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Sign everyone on tour and Liv will still fail. 

They can easily make it a 70-80 person field, no cut, get rid of the mumble rap,

 

It’s basically the same as the new tour elevated events. 
 

Bottom line is if it’s a better field, more people will watch liv than the tour

 

But I don’t think things will go that far

[bekgolf]

Just now, bscinstnct said:

They can easily make it a 70-80 person field, no cut, get rid of the mumble rap,

 

It’s basically the same as the new tour elevated events. 
 

Bottom line is if it’s a better field, more people will watch liv than the tour

 

But I don’t think things will go that far

 

Disagree.  The PGA events so far this year have had fantastic finishes and world quality golf being played by names that are new to the winners circle.  Just having the names won't do it, it's a huge waste of money and all it's doing is tearing up the tour.  How does anyone support that?

[TiScape]

2 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Why do you think the pro Liv guys are here?  Why do new ones pop up every so often with the same talking points? 

 

It really helps to know that I'm not alone in wanting the tour to live, I don't want Liv to destroy the PGA Tour.  I'm not someone who just says "it's the only golf on so I'll watch it" and I'm fairly certain that most PGA Tour fans feel the same way.

I’d make the joke “bcs they are getting paid to be”??? But don’t want to get any new points, so won’t 😇

[scotee]

10 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

They can easily make it a 70-80 person field, no cut, get rid of the mumble rap,

 

It’s basically the same as the new tour elevated events. 
 

Bottom line is if it’s a better field, more people will watch liv than the tour

 

But I don’t think things will go that far

 

I don't think it has much to do with the better field. It is the product that is flawed. #meritocracy 

 

Bsc hope your last sentence is correct😉

Edited March 21 by scotee

[bekgolf]

10 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’d make the joke “bcs they are getting paid to be”??? But don’t want to get any new points, so won’t 😇

 

I should add part of why I'm here is so much is that I'm a retiree who usually passes the time with golf, gardening, etc.  My sad story is that I'm currently laid up with back issues and this helps to pass the time.  There is a lot of time available when I'm stuck on the couch and not leaving the house, lol.

[TiScape]

Just now, bekgolf said:

 

I should add part of why I'm here is so much is that I'm a retiree who usually passes the time with golf, gardening, etc.  My sad story is that I'm currently laid up with back issues and this helps to pass the time.  There is a lot of time available when I'm stuck on the couch and not leaving the house, lol.

Sorry to hear that b. Here is to hoping ur back feels better soon 😊

[Dutch1008]

20 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Well, supposedly, SSG/the tour are perfectly comfortable with taking a multibillion 💰 investment from PIF, cooperating and seeking synergy with LIV, and having ARum on the board

 

These are all well established facts, isn’t that right?

 

So, with the understanding that ARum is going to tell Jay and SSG to take a flying leap if there’s even a hint they want to “shut” down LIV

 

Where does that leave us?

 

The tour cannot maintain purse levels as ratings continue to decline as LIV keep signing their top players. 
 

You want to cooperate with PIF

 

Or just slowly go down the tubes of decreasing revenue and talent?

 

@betarhoalphadelta said it better than I could have. 

 

That said, I don't think there is a world where PGAT has half the stars playing a dozen $20M events and LIV has half the stars playing a different dozen $20M events, where both enterprises make money. Golf is just not that big and popular as a spectator sport. Ratings for the tour will drop, sponsors will continue to push back on the PGAT. LIV ratings will continue to be meaningless with no hope of ever breaking even. 

 

I think both groups know this and realize its in their best interest to figure it out. I have an idea of where we'll end up but who knows how long it takes to get there. Reading the hints from Rory and Wyndham last week and even some of the long time statements from Greg and Phil, I think we are on the marching path to a world tour. I don't think it will look like LIV but I don't think it will look like the current PGAT either. My best guess...

 

PGAT, LIV, DPWT and others consolidate into the following....

 

PGA World - Top 100 players, 16 stroke play events (10 US based, 6 Intl), 4 team events, $20-25M purses. Add in the majors, ryder/pres cups and top players are playing a max of 25 events / yr

PGA Americas - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses

PGA Europe - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses

PGA Aussie/Asia - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses   

 

Top 75 in the PGA World keep their card for the next year. Bottom 25 go to qualifying and are joined by the top 75 across the Americas/Europe/AussieAisa tours along w/ maybe the top 25 of players from NCAA. Those 125 players compete in a fall series (3-4 events) for the right to earn a tour card at the PGA World level. 

 

I'll be honest, I probably wouldn't watch a ton of the sub PGA World events. I doubt others would either. These tours would likely need to be subsidized by the World tour. However, that isn't that different from MLB subsidizing the Minor Leagues. I would get a kick out of fall qualifying though. You could have some awesome story lines. Struggling star like JT has to battle through qualifying, Aging star like  Adam Scott or Justin Rose, can a young buck like Gordon Sargeant jump directly from college to the world tour? It'd be a blast. Like Q school on steroids.  

[Shilgy]

18 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I should add part of why I'm here is so much is that I'm a retiree who usually passes the time with golf, gardening, etc.  My sad story is that I'm currently laid up with back issues and this helps to pass the time.  There is a lot of time available when I'm stuck on the couch and not leaving the house, lol.

I hear ya there….retiree who just had (minor thankfully) knee meniscus cleanup and off the course for six weeks.

[scotee]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/liv-golf-s-feherty-has-augusta-date-during-masters-week/ar-BB1kiASm?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=03fb6726ce7647cba953cf4b26f063c2&ei=17

 

I have no problem with taking the money. Just don't give us BS about it. 

I also imagine the honest answer is not what the PIF people want to hear.

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

@betarhoalphadelta said it better than I could have. 

 

That said, I don't think there is a world where PGAT has half the stars playing a dozen $20M events and LIV has half the stars playing a different dozen $20M events, where both enterprises make money. Golf is just not that big and popular as a spectator sport. Ratings for the tour will drop, sponsors will continue to push back on the PGAT. LIV ratings will continue to be meaningless with no hope of ever breaking even. 

 

I think both groups know this and realize its in their best interest to figure it out. I have an idea of where we'll end up but who knows how long it takes to get there. Reading the hints from Rory and Wyndham last week and even some of the long time statements from Greg and Phil, I think we are on the marching path to a world tour. I don't think it will look like LIV but I don't think it will look like the current PGAT either. My best guess...

 

PGAT, LIV, DPWT and others consolidate into the following....

 

PGA World - Top 100 players, 16 stroke play events (10 US based, 6 Intl), 4 team events, $20-25M purses. Add in the majors, ryder/pres cups and top players are playing a max of 25 events / yr

PGA Americas - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses

PGA Europe - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses

PGA Aussie/Asia - ~150 players, 20ish events, $3M purses   

 

Top 75 in the PGA World keep their card for the next year. Bottom 25 go to qualifying and are joined by the top 75 across the Americas/Europe/AussieAisa tours along w/ maybe the top 25 of players from NCAA. Those 125 players compete in a fall series (3-4 events) for the right to earn a tour card at the PGA World level. 

 

I'll be honest, I probably wouldn't watch a ton of the sub PGA World events. I doubt others would either. These tours would likely need to be subsidized by the World tour. However, that isn't that different from MLB subsidizing the Minor Leagues. I would get a kick out of fall qualifying though. You could have some awesome story lines. Struggling star like JT has to battle through qualifying, Aging star like  Adam Scott or Justin Rose, can a young buck like Gordon Sargeant jump directly from college to the world tour? It'd be a blast. Like Q school on steroids.  

 

“I don't think there is a world where PGAT has half the stars playing a dozen $20M events and LIV has half the stars playing a different dozen $20M events, where both enterprises make money.”

 

 

 

This is the entire key to it all. And PIF does not need to make money.

 

So the pga tour will lose eventually, make no money, reduce purses.

 

I differ with you on consolidation

 

ARum wants LiV to continue as a brand

 

Easiest to just have 4 Aramco events, that’s what was in the originally agreement I think. Where the top end of both tours play

 

Then a Ryder Cup event, that would be a huge draw

 

PIF agrees to not pay massive sign ons and the tour opens up media to them

[Ghost of Snead]

53 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

If PIF goes and signs Homa, Aberg, Hovland next year, ratings and revenues just keep going south 

 

Eventually there’s a rush out the door. Rory, Hideki, Xander 

 

The tour could be up the proverbial creek with no paddle in 5 years 

 

It will still be around, but a shadow of what it was

 

You're assuming those guys will sign just for $ to play.  I don't think any of the 6 you mention are going anywhere.

[Ghost of Snead]

Duplicate due to LIV hacking the Wrx server

    

Edited March 21 by Ghost of Snead

[subrew]

1 hour ago, italianstallion said:

 

I don't like/can't stand the smell emanating from the local water treatment plant when I drive by. I can hold my breath for a little bit, but that smell has attached itself to every molecule of air in a 2 mile radius, and at some point I need to breathe. Put more simply, its hard to ignore something when its taken hold/trying to take hold of the only option I have. 

 

 

I'd prefer this arrangement. I could avoid watching those events and get back to watching the other PGA TOUR events not sponsored by Aramco. 

 

Like the Fedex Cup playoffs, brought to you by Fedex and the $400m investment they took from the PIF.  

 

Or the RBC Heritage, brought to you by the Royal Bank of Canada, one of only a few banks in the world that was awarded "Bank Runner" duties for the PIF.

Edited March 21 by subrew

[Titleist99]

54 minutes ago, kmbean said:

Jon Rahm going to a competitor and constantly stating how much he misses working for his old employer.  Not sure why he doesn’t just shut it and enjoy his money, which seemed very important during his decision making process.

I couldn't agree more. This is the most infuriating thing about players leaving the Tour for generational wealth. Take the money and go away. As these players leave the PGAT my interest in them as golfers ceases to exist.

[bobfoster]

1 hour ago, italianstallion said:

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

 

I don't like/can't stand the smell emanating from the local water treatment plant when I drive by. I can hold my breath for a little bit, but that smell has attached itself to every molecule of air in a 2 mile radius, and at some point I need to breathe. Put more simply, its hard to ignore something when its taken hold/trying to take hold of the only option I have. 

I completely avoid watching LIV. It is exhibition golf, not professional golf. But I pop into this thread now and then merely to voice my continuing displeasure. PIF has been incredibly damaging to the sport. And it is now doing the same thing to professional tennis (the other sport I've long played and watched).

 

Both sports are, and will be far worse off for fans so long as PIF continues to just buy professional sports as what - to them - is just a hobby for billionaires. They do not care a bit about "the good of the game". 

Edited March 21 by bobfoster

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

I completely avoid watching LIV. It is exhibition golf, not professional golf. But I pop into this thread now and then merely to voice my continuing displeasure. PIF has been incredibly damaging to the sport. And it is now doing the same thing to professional tennis (the other sport I've long played and watched).

 

Both sports are, and will be far worse off for fans so long as PIF continues to just buy professional sports as what - to them - is just a hobby for billionaires.

Yep, haven’t watched any.  

[Shilgy]

24 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

You're assuming those guys will sign just for $ to play.  I don't think any of the 6 you mention are going anywhere.

I could see the first three.  All of that is assuming the status quo.  Merge, even a bit, with the result being no large sign on bonuses?  Only those that are done or never were would flip imo.

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, scotee said:

 

Exactly. He and most of the others knew what they were giving up. When you remember what Jon said before he defected it is so obviously phoney the things he now says.

 

 

After reading this, why would anyone in their right mind believe anything that comes out of Rahm's mouth? Apparently, SA came with the right price. Just go away Jon Rahm.

[Dutch1008]

3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

“I don't think there is a world where PGAT has half the stars playing a dozen $20M events and LIV has half the stars playing a different dozen $20M events, where both enterprises make money.”

 

This is the entire key to it all. And PIF does not need to make money.

 

So the pga tour will lose eventually, make no money, reduce purses.

 

I differ with you on consolidation

 

ARum wants LiV to continue as a brand

 

Easiest to just have 4 Aramco events, that’s what was in the originally agreement I think. Where the top end of both tours play

 

Then a Ryder Cup event, that would be a huge draw

 

PIF agrees to not pay massive sign ons and the tour opens up media to them

 

If ARum wants LIV to continue as a brand, this is an ego fight and nothing will likely be resolved. They can brand the 4 event team series I suggested as the LIV Golf Team Series presented by Aramco. They can hold one of the stroke play events and another team event in Jeddah, Neom, or King Abdullah EC. Add in an Augusta membership and get this signed. ARum gets a seat on the board, a couple big events to help spark Saudi tourism, the naming rights on team golf, and the Augusta membership he so desperately wants. 

 

I see a problem w/ your plan. Top players don't want to play any more than they already do. So all the PGAT would really be getting is a new sponsor committed to taking over from disgruntled sponsors. There wouldn't be 4 new Aramco events, they'd simply rebrand Farmers, Honda, Well Fargo etc. Also, do the LIV guys want to add 4 events to their schedule. They likely have no choice in the matter but the vast majority of them screamed from the mountain tops that one of the primary reasons for joining LIV was to play less. 

 

I think both parties need to burn it all to the ground and start from scratch.  

[One Putter]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

This is literally impossible on the internet, and you know that. What you're saying here is that if you don't like it you should stay off the internet, good luck doing that in an age where everyone uses the internet to do everything.

Edited March 21 by One Putter

[bscinstnct]

8 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

If ARum wants LIV to continue as a brand, this is an ego fight and nothing will likely be resolved. They can brand the 4 event team series I suggested as the LIV Golf Team Series presented by Aramco. They can hold one of the stroke play events and another team event in Jeddah, Neom, or King Abdullah EC. Add in an Augusta membership and get this signed. ARum gets a seat on the board, a couple big events to help spark Saudi tourism, the naming rights on team golf, and the Augusta membership he so desperately wants. 

 

I see a problem w/ your plan. Top players don't want to play any more than they already do. So all the PGAT would really be getting is a new sponsor committed to taking over from disgruntled sponsors. There wouldn't be 4 new Aramco events, they'd simply rebrand Farmers, Honda, Well Fargo etc. Also, do the LIV guys want to add 4 events to their schedule. They likely have no choice in the matter but the vast majority of them screamed from the mountain tops that one of the primary reasons for joining LIV was to play less. 

 

I think both parties need to burn it all to the ground and start from scratch.  

 

I think LIV continuing as a full global golf tour is ARums red line

 

And yes, things will change

 

If Aramco will put up 30-40MM in purses, every guy Rory etc will not hesitate to play. Some events will go south or be “opposite” field events. The top guys will still play the sane total number of events. 
 

As far as LIV, if the field for Aramco is say 70 players, 50 pga tour and 20 liv, then LIV can schedule its own “opposite field” events for the lower level players. They will have no problem finding guys on other tours to play in them as one offs

Edited March 21 by bscinstnct

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

If ARum wants LIV to continue as a brand, this is an ego fight and nothing will likely be resolved. They can brand the 4 event team series I suggested as the LIV Golf Team Series presented by Aramco. They can hold one of the stroke play events and another team event in Jeddah, Neom, or King Abdullah EC. Add in an Augusta membership and get this signed. ARum gets a seat on the board, a couple big events to help spark Saudi tourism, the naming rights on team golf, and the Augusta membership he so desperately wants. 

 

I see a problem w/ your plan. Top players don't want to play any more than they already do. So all the PGAT would really be getting is a new sponsor committed to taking over from disgruntled sponsors. There wouldn't be 4 new Aramco events, they'd simply rebrand Farmers, Honda, Well Fargo etc. Also, do the LIV guys want to add 4 events to their schedule. They likely have no choice in the matter but the vast majority of them screamed from the mountain tops that one of the primary reasons for joining LIV was to play less. 

 

I think both parties need to burn it all to the ground and start from scratch.  

Why would the PGAT burn their sustainable business to the ground? LIV will never make money. Despite what some might think losing money every year is a fool's mission.

 

Maybe you should rethink your logic.....

[TiScape]

9 minutes ago, One Putter said:

This is literally impossible on the internet, and you know that. What you're saying here is that if you don't like it you should stay off the internet, good luck doing that in an age where everyone uses the internet to do everything.

Oh I get that in general. For me it’s pretty simple though and I can be on the internet and not “complain” about something I have no control over. For me, I’ll get upset/complain about something if I can and am willing to change it. If it’s something I know my “complaining” won’t help, I’ll accept it and deal w/it. I do recognize that for some simply expressing themselves helps w/the anger.
 

*here I am giving this way more energy than I want to! Haha

[King_Slender]

23 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Was and still is circling the drain.

 

Billions spent for big name stars, the easiest golf to watch totally for free and yet it hasn't gained a bit of traction. 

 

And yet they are getting new sponsors and driving the discussions with the PGA.  

[CDM]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

I’m not sure how tour events work exactly but 

 

One way to cooperate without doin a deal would be to have Aramco sponsor an event(s), put up the purses and an advertising commitment, then the pga tour benefits from the media rights

 

Top guys from both tours play and lots of people will watch

 

 

 

 

 

Not a bad thought.

 

Not sure it works though? The MEDIA rights is what makes pertty much all the money for the PGAT.  How it has played out so far I dont think any of the groups being dicussed are going to give up not being part of that.   

 

PGAT is not hiding it, that media rights is where all the monies come from for the tour........as we know Phil did his soapbox on it.

 

I have been assuming (could be way wrong) the for profit entitiy would be the media rights side? How they can get a return.  I think if they go after the sponosrs it will go bad.  As we know they poked at 3 for more money to be elevated events and those 3 have withdrawn from being sponsors.