LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Rapidcat]

23 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

His anger is understandable

 

Has their ever been a less successful CEO in global business history?

 

A multibillion 💵 burn with barely any revenue in 3 years?

 

Wut happened the Adidas buying the Cleeks for a Billion 💰?

 

The best is the LIV claim that they are bringing the younger fans into golf

 

Our average fan is in their 40s they say. 
 

But the pga tour has 10x the fans under 40 that LIV has

 

LIV just doesn’t have the actual 70% of actual fans of pro golf that are, on average, older lol

 

LIV fans are under 50, mostly under 30 I speculate, because those are the only people who can tolerate mumble rap on the tee 🤣

 

But you don't know what his KPI's are so you have no basis to comment on his success.

 

Talk about playing to an audience.

[Ghost of Snead]

11 hours ago, subrew said:

 

www.google.com

 

Or if you watched LIV, you would know.

 

Looks like Abe Ancer made it through final qualifying too.

 

Just googled Horsefield and got this - 

 

Horsefield Tortoise [2022 Ultimate How-To Care Guide]

[jholz]

12 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But Stellantis isn’t the sponsor and isn’t getting any advertising out of the deal.  The deal is with Maserati, which is like having a social media sponsorship deal with MySpace. 

 

Whether one calls it Stillantis or Mopar, the product has always sucked and still does. One can only wonder how they remain in business. 

 

Much like LIV... 

[smashdn]

26 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

Front page of GolfWRX (via Bloomberg):

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/742333/the-vitriol-and-hatred-was-just-disgusting-greg-norman-lashes-out-at-liv-critics/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Featured_Latest&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused

 

I watched the interview.  I wouldn't characterize that as lashing out at all.  Those first guys did face "headwinds" and did face vitriol.  Major winners lost sponsors.  What he said wasn't untrue.

 

It also cuts out whatever question he was asked the way they edited it to get the context of why he said it when he did.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-07-01/latitude-liv-golf-ceo-greg-norman

 

He also explains how they had to pivot and adjust on some of the early plans due to what they faced.  

 

For the one of you calling him an unsuccessful global CEO, the guy has a successful clothing brand, wine label and golf design business.  I think it is still way too early for any of us to say whether LIV from business standpoint is successful or not without knowing what they had forecasted and how long they planned for it to be unprofitable and in the growth phase.  They are still building and adjusting and for something that rocked the boat so much, it takes time for people to adjust to it and determine whether or not the see value or potential value enough to invest.

 

I have said before, ultimately I think it either goes away via absorption back into the PGAT and remnants may still be there a la the WGC type deal or it hangs on but as a third tier type of golf tour with a global reach doing about what it is doing now.  The recruitment of players is going to be a big issue in the next year or two for sure.  Are there more than 2-3 real "needle movers" left on the PGAT to poach if they wanted to go that route?  A good deal of the guys from three years ago who would have made the "splash" they got or if they did not their games have cooled to the point they are often well down the leaderboards.

 

The Mickelson part talks about the freedom they gained with the social media marketing side of stuff.

[Ghost of Snead]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

For the one of you calling him an unsuccessful global CEO, the guy has a successful clothing brand, wine label and golf design business.  I think it is still way too early for any of us to say whether LIV from business standpoint is successful or not without knowing what they had forecasted and how long they planned for it to be unprofitable and in the growth phase.  They are still building and adjusting and for something that rocked the boat so much, it takes time for people to adjust to it and determine whether or not the see value or potential value enough to invest.

 

All built from the reputation he largely built from playing the PGAT - the tour he's currently trying to destroy. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

19 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

But you don't know what his KPI's are so you have no basis to comment on his success.

 

Talk about playing to an audience.

That's funny. Nice spin 

[Shilgy]

7 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I watched the interview.  I wouldn't characterize that as lashing out at all.  Those first guys did face "headwinds" and did face vitriol.  Major winners lost sponsors.  What he said wasn't untrue.

 

It also cuts out whatever question he was asked the way they edited it to get the context of why he said it when he did.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-07-01/latitude-liv-golf-ceo-greg-norman

 

He also explains how they had to pivot and adjust on some of the early plans due to what they faced.  

 

For the one of you calling him an unsuccessful global CEO, the guy has a successful clothing brand, wine label and golf design business.  I think it is still way too early for any of us to say whether LIV from business standpoint is successful or not without knowing what they had forecasted and how long they planned for it to be unprofitable and in the growth phase.  They are still building and adjusting and for something that rocked the boat so much, it takes time for people to adjust to it and determine whether or not the see value or potential value enough to invest.

 

I have said before, ultimately I think it either goes away via absorption back into the PGAT and remnants may still be there a la the WGC type deal or it hangs on but as a third tier type of golf tour with a global reach doing about what it is doing now.  The recruitment of players is going to be a big issue in the next year or two for sure.  Are there more than 2-3 real "needle movers" left on the PGAT to poach if they wanted to go that route?  A good deal of the guys from three years ago who would have made the "splash" they got or if they did not their games have cooled to the point they are often well down the leaderboards.

 

The Mickelson part talks about the freedom they gained with the social media marketing side of stuff.

Most of the players that left would not have face the criticism if they would have been honest during the process.  How many claimed loyalty to the PGA Tour even when contracts had already been signed to leave?  For that matter how many claimed it wasn’t about the money?

 

You asked if there were 2-3 needle movers left…..which needle movers have they signed?  Their needle is still stuck at zero.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

39 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I watched the interview.  I wouldn't characterize that as lashing out at all.  Those first guys did face "headwinds" and did face vitriol.  Major winners lost sponsors.  What he said wasn't untrue.

 

It also cuts out whatever question he was asked the way they edited it to get the context of why he said it when he did.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-07-01/latitude-liv-golf-ceo-greg-norman

 

He also explains how they had to pivot and adjust on some of the early plans due to what they faced.  

 

For the one of you calling him an unsuccessful global CEO, the guy has a successful clothing brand, wine label and golf design business.  I think it is still way too early for any of us to say whether LIV from business standpoint is successful or not without knowing what they had forecasted and how long they planned for it to be unprofitable and in the growth phase.  They are still building and adjusting and for something that rocked the boat so much, it takes time for people to adjust to it and determine whether or not the see value or potential value enough to invest.

 

I have said before, ultimately I think it either goes away via absorption back into the PGAT and remnants may still be there a la the WGC type deal or it hangs on but as a third tier type of golf tour with a global reach doing about what it is doing now.  The recruitment of players is going to be a big issue in the next year or two for sure.  Are there more than 2-3 real "needle movers" left on the PGAT to poach if they wanted to go that route?  A good deal of the guys from three years ago who would have made the "splash" they got or if they did not their games have cooled to the point they are often well down the leaderboards.

 

The Mickelson part talks about the freedom they gained with the social media marketing side of stuff.

A famous golfer like Norman leveraging his name for a golf clothing brand, wine brand or golf design business is like shooting fish in a barrel.  His decisions for LIV's approach were clearly driven by his vitriol for the PGAT.  His arrogance allowed him to greatly miscalculate his bully approach and he got punched in the face by the golf world. 

 

As for Mickelson, at the start of LIV with his inflammatory comments he severely damaged LIV and fanned the flames of disdain. 

 

We keep hearing LIV needs more time. Time for what? What are the goals? There must be some milestones along the way. How are the doing against those milestones?  If fan interest is a milestone then they are failing miserably.  If enhancing the image of the kingdom is a goal then they are also failing.  If generating value for teams is a goal that's also a fail.

Edited Wednesday at 02:28 PM by BlackDiamondPar5

[BlackDiamondPar5]

40 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Most of the players that left would not have face the criticism if they would have been honest during the process.  How many claimed loyalty to the PGA Tour even when contracts had already been signed to leave?  For that matter how many claimed it wasn’t about the money?

 

You asked if there were 2-3 needle movers left…..which needle movers have they signed?  Their needle is still stuck at zero.

 

Anthony Kim was a bit of a bump, albeit temporary 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Rapidcat said:

 

But you don't know what his KPI's are so you have no basis to comment on his success.

 

Talk about playing to an audience.

 

Cheers rc

 

Speaking of audiences, here’s an audience, UK interest in liv.

 

This has got to start ticking up or the tour may just decide there is no value in a deal with liv. 
 

 

[dalehead]

59 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Cheers rc

 

Speaking of audiences, here’s an audience, UK interest in liv.

 

This has got to start ticking up or the tour may just decide there is no value in a deal with liv. 
 

 

The only value for the tour in a deal with LIV is stopping their poaching of their players.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Most of the players that left would not have face the criticism if they would have been honest during the process.  How many claimed loyalty to the PGA Tour even when contracts had already been signed to leave?  For that matter how many claimed it wasn’t about the money?

 

You asked if there were 2-3 needle movers left…..which needle movers have they signed?  Their needle is still stuck at zero.

 

 

589 pages for a needle stuck at zero.  For people with no interest, will not watch, hate the format, there are a bunch of you pretty enthralled by the discussion.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

We keep hearing LIV needs more time. Time for what? What are the goals? There must be some milestones along the way. How are the doing against those milestones?  If fan interest is a milestone then they are failing miserably.  If enhancing the image of the kingdom is a goal then they are also failing.  If generating value for teams is a goal that's also a fail.

 

Why does LIV or any [privately held] company owe any of us an explanation on how they define success or what their plans are?  It doesn't look like success to us based upon traditional measures of profitability (still early) and tv viewership.  Maybe this was planned.  maybe if it was not planned it is not far off from where they think they would or could be at this point.  I don't know.

 

I just get tickled few here can objectively discuss it with minimal bias.  I also am perplexed how so many have these deeper reasons for why they can't watch golf for golf.  That is my bias I guess.  I only watch golf for the golf shots, not for the "tension fit to be cut with a knife" or places in history for the players.  Did you hit a cool golf shot?  Did it turn out how you wanted it?  How close to the hole did you get it given the difficulty of what you were attempting?  Pretty shallow stuff.

[CasualLie]

8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

589 pages for a needle stuck at zero.  For people with no interest, will not watch, hate the format, there are a bunch of you pretty enthralled by the discussion.

 

Well, that's the makings of LIV math.  But let's be real.  589 pages at 30 posts per page is about 18,000 posts.  But there are several people with several posts each; let's be conservative and call it 5 posts per person on average.  That's 3,600 posts.  But not all are LIV fans!  It's not even half, but let's give it half.  Now we are down to 1,800 enthralled LIV fans.  I'm guessing GN left that off the PowerPoint deck presented to PIF.

[idrive]

4 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Why does LIV or any [privately held] company owe any of us an explanation on how they define success or what their plans are?  It doesn't look like success to us based upon traditional measures of profitability (still early) and tv viewership.  Maybe this was planned.  maybe if it was not planned it is not far off from where they think they would or could be at this point.  I don't know.

 

I just get tickled few here can objectively discuss it with minimal bias.  I also am perplexed how so many have these deeper reasons for why they can't watch golf for golf.  That is my bias I guess.  I only watch golf for the golf shots, not for the "tension fit to be cut with a knife" or places in history for the players.  Did you hit a cool golf shot?  Did it turn out how you wanted it?  How close to the hole did you get it given the difficulty of what you were attempting?  Pretty shallow stuff.

 

You and I are nothing alike in regard to professional golf.

 

What's so hard to understand we all think differently?

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, idrive said:

What's so hard to understand we all think differently?

 

Nothing.  Which is what I said. And what you missed, predictably, again.  The word was bias.  The phrase was "with minimal bias."

 

It isn't hard to understand that everyone thinks differently, it is hard to have a discussion where most are clouded by their personal biases.  At this point it is jarringly predictable.

[smashdn]

23 minutes ago, smashdn said:

589 pages for a needle stuck at zero.  For people with no interest, will not watch, hate the format, there are a bunch of you pretty enthralled by the discussion.

 

11 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Well, that's the makings of LIV math.  But let's be real.  589 pages at 30 posts per page is about 18,000 posts.  But there are several people with several posts each; let's be conservative and call it 5 posts per person on average.  That's 3,600 posts.  But not all are LIV fans!  It's not even half, but let's give it half.  Now we are down to 1,800 enthralled LIV fans.  I'm guessing GN left that off the PowerPoint deck presented to PIF.

 

You made my point better than I could have.

 

[CasualLie]

I'm happy to give credit where credit is due.  GN is fairly uneducated, certainly doesn't have the MBA pedigree of most CEOs.  His true talent is hitting a golf ball quite well.  Playing in the pre-Tiger era when golf money wasn't silly astronomical numbers, be earned $14M on course.  He retires from golf and goes into several businesses.  Almost all of them are successful.  Apparently his net worth is $400M, and that's with the $100M hit called divorce.

 

Now does that make him a successful CEO?  I would say so.  Take the apparel business as example.  The shark clothing logo is doing more business than ever.  But Greg only made one decision to give the apparel business the best chance of success - globally license it to another company who has expertise in apparel back in 2009.  That's smart decision making.  

 

People too often equate CEO with the "brains" behind all the finances and the one writing the detailed operating script.  That's not even close.  First of all, the huge majority of CEOs have limited spending authority.  That needs board approval.  Yes, sometimes board members are the rubber stamp of the CEOs wishes (see Tesla), but that depends on who has the shares, and which shareholders bond together.

 

Bottom line, while GN didn't start some tech behemoth, he obviously knows how to network, hire talent around him, listen, take advice, and convince investors.  You may not like his motivation, not like his business plan, and certainly don't like how he markets himself, but he wouldn't be getting the money and wouldn't go from uneducated golfer to $400M without learning and getting good at the key characteristics of a CEO.  

 

Argue all you want, but the numbers don't lie.  If PIF (the board) wants to spend $billions without an immediate return on capital, that's their choice.  The CEOs job is to do just that.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

32 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Why does LIV or any [privately held] company owe any of us an explanation on how they define success or what their plans are?  It doesn't look like success to us based upon traditional measures of profitability (still early) and tv viewership.  Maybe this was planned.  maybe if it was not planned it is not far off from where they think they would or could be at this point.  I don't know.

 

I just get tickled few here can objectively discuss it with minimal bias.  I also am perplexed how so many have these deeper reasons for why they can't watch golf for golf.  That is my bias I guess.  I only watch golf for the golf shots, not for the "tension fit to be cut with a knife" or places in history for the players.  Did you hit a cool golf shot?  Did it turn out how you wanted it?  How close to the hole did you get it given the difficulty of what you were attempting?  Pretty shallow stuff.

Agreed private entities don't owe us any info.  But you can still see what they are doing and can estimate motives and metrics of success.  In the case of LIV, since it's government funded, it's either going to be $ROI (for profit or offsetting expenses with revenue) or more likely some other social metric for ROI, such as acceptance in the world and getting a seat at the big table and not just for oil.  But to gain this you've got to be making moves that gain respect.  I think we can all understand that, but LIV isn't getting them any of those things. In fact it's really the opposite.

 

The resentment comes from their business model.  They haven't created a better product and their process of poaching talent just reeks of intellectual laziness and lack of creativity.  They aren't building anything just attempting to grab big names and thinking fans will follow.  It's an idiotic and moronic model that isn't working.  If they keep doing it, it just makes them look like bigger fools. 

 

As for watching LIV, the product it is terrible. I watched enough when AK came aboard to know that.  It would still be terrible even if Mother Theresa was the LIV leader  

Edited Wednesday at 04:50 PM by BlackDiamondPar5

[Danielson]

3 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

But you don't know what his KPI's are so you have no basis to comment on his success.

 

Talk about playing to an audience.

 

Jay Monahan is probably super successful too. If only we knew his KPIs

[CasualLie]

12 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

 

You made my point better than I could have.

 

 

😂 What does a line on my ball have to do with it?!

 

Golfwrx... Discussion board on... Wait for it...golf.

 

LIV...hot topic on golf.

 

That's about it, but nothing I post is going to help LIV, nor hurt it.  It's not the way I would spend $billions, but hey, I'll help PIF spend it and do a much better job than most of their employees if they want to hire me!

[Shilgy]

49 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

589 pages for a needle stuck at zero.  For people with no interest, will not watch, hate the format, there are a bunch of you pretty enthralled by the discussion.

Yes, we are enjoying certain people flopping at their endeavor.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

As for Mickelson, at the start of LIV with his inflammatory comments he severely damaged LIV and fanned the flames of disdain. 

 

Hey, didn't LIV and some of their players sue the PGAT and some commentators, etc...?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

19 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

 

Hey, didn't LIV and some of their players sue the PGAT and some commentators, etc...?

I'd forgotten about this. Great reminder about how hostile Mickelson and crew turned it into.  Mickelson's got to be the only guy to trash his old and new organization at the same time. What a complete buffoon. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Why does LIV or any [privately held] company owe any of us an explanation on how they define success or what their plans are?  It doesn't look like success to us based upon traditional measures of profitability (still early) and tv viewership.  Maybe this was planned.  maybe if it was not planned it is not far off from where they think they would or could be at this point.  I don't know.

 

I just get tickled few here can objectively discuss it with minimal bias.  I also am perplexed how so many have these deeper reasons for why they can't watch golf for golf.  That is my bias I guess.  I only watch golf for the golf shots, not for the "tension fit to be cut with a knife" or places in history for the players.  Did you hit a cool golf shot?  Did it turn out how you wanted it?  How close to the hole did you get it given the difficulty of what you were attempting?  Pretty shallow stuff.

 

I find that those who like LIV have an axe to grind with the tour often more than actually liking liv

 

Where those who don’t like liv, and let’s face it, based on livs ratings/fan interest, it’s the vast majority of golf fans,

 

are objectively saying

 

it just stinks. 

[Titleist99]

14 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I'd forgotten about this. Great reminder about how hostile Mickelson and crew turned it into.  Mickelson's got to be the only guy to trash his old and new organization at the same time. What a complete buffoon. 

Wasn't Mickelson recruiting players for the Saudi tour while he was playing the PGAT?

 

Not Cool.

[jholz]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

I'm happy to give credit where credit is due.  GN is fairly uneducated, certainly doesn't have the MBA pedigree of most CEOs.  His true talent is hitting a golf ball quite well.  Playing in the pre-Tiger era when golf money wasn't silly astronomical numbers, be earned $14M on course.  He retires from golf and goes into several businesses.  Almost all of them are successful.  Apparently his net worth is $400M, and that's with the $100M hit called divorce.

 

Now does that make him a successful CEO?  I would say so.  Take the apparel business as example.  The shark clothing logo is doing more business than ever.  But Greg only made one decision to give the apparel business the best chance of success - globally license it to another company who has expertise in apparel back in 2009.  That's smart decision making.  

 

People too often equate CEO with the "brains" behind all the finances and the one writing the detailed operating script.  That's not even close.  First of all, the huge majority of CEOs have limited spending authority.  That needs board approval.  Yes, sometimes board members are the rubber stamp of the CEOs wishes (see Tesla), but that depends on who has the shares, and which shareholders bond together.

 

Bottom line, while GN didn't start some tech behemoth, he obviously knows how to network, hire talent around him, listen, take advice, and convince investors.  You may not like his motivation, not like his business plan, and certainly don't like how he markets himself, but he wouldn't be getting the money and wouldn't go from uneducated golfer to $400M without learning and getting good at the key characteristics of a CEO.  

 

Argue all you want, but the numbers don't lie.  If PIF (the board) wants to spend $billions without an immediate return on capital, that's their choice.  The CEOs job is to do just that.

 

So, in other words - CEOs do largely nothing. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[mosesgolf]

Same old Sergio.  He is really old now lol.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/whiner-of-the-year-sergio-garcia-fails-to-get-fans-sympathy-despite-the-liv-golfer-s-outcry-for-extra-time/ar-BB1pjXTC?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=b94d36bdb1714976b7bba610919f2288&ei=36

[Puttersaurus Rex]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

589 pages for a needle stuck at zero.  For people with no interest, will not watch, hate the format, there are a bunch of you pretty enthralled by the discussion.

Or 589 pages of LIV and fans trying to justify their existence, and failing to do so.

 

Funny when people attack others’ bias, yet lately that perceived bias is actual facts.

 

Pro PGAT comments have been bringing facts the past 20+ pages, and others keep spinning in their own bias—blaming others for being biased.  It is easy to see and call out.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I find that those who like LIV have an axe to grind with the tour often more than actually liking liv

 

Where those who don’t like liv, and let’s face it, based on livs ratings/fan interest, it’s the vast majority of golf fans,

 

are objectively saying

 

it just stinks. 

 

For my purposes and how I intake golf, it suits.  But so does a lot of the youtube stuff out there.  I just watch guys hitting golf shots.  And LIV is that.  Maybe more of them in a time period than other mediums.

 

I do miss the hushed tones of Jim Nantz waxing poetically about how much is riding on 6 foot putt.  How the golfer's sister overcame a freak porcupine incident growing up but by living vicariously through the player made it through the ordeal with only superficial facial scarring and a wooden eye.

 

"This putt........is all for her........and a monument......for all she has endured.......oh! It went sneaking past the cup!"

Edited Wednesday at 07:20 PM by smashdn