LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[fbjim]

I will admit that LIV does pass the extremely high standard of "contains actual golf shots". 

[smashdn]

30 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

Pro PGAT comments have been bringing facts the past 20+ pages, and others keep spinning in their own bias—blaming others for being biased.  It is easy to see and call out.

 

I question why there needs to be PGAT facts in the LIV thread.  They are different.  Fine to be different.  You can like one or the other or neither or both.  Both sides.  Why run one down in an attempt to build the other up?  It doesn't work that way because it is not either or.

[Archimedes65]

10 hours ago, ashortgame said:

Sergio is not a slow player. I'd be pissed off too.

 

Agreed.  But you’d take it out by saying what he said to a volunteer rules official?  It’s not the fact that he was peeved, it was how he reacted and what he said.  Which would have earned him a punch in the mouth if it wasn’t an R&A official.  Sergio is a petulant child who was never spanked by his mummy.

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

I question why there needs to be PGAT facts in the LIV thread.  They are different.  Fine to be different.  You can like one or the other or neither or both.  Both sides.  Why run one down in an attempt to build the other up?  It doesn't work that way because it is not either or.

For starters you might want to ask Phil Mickelson. 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

I question why there needs to be PGAT facts in the LIV thread.  They are different.  Fine to be different.  You can like one or the other or neither or both.  Both sides.  Why run one down in an attempt to build the other up?  It doesn't work that way because it is not either or.

This is a LIV propaganda thread. Most/all pro-LIV posters are shills. The anti-LIV folks are just providing fact checking and countering the propaganda. You know that.

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

For starters you might want to ask Phil Mickelson. 

 

I agree with that.  I think DJ took a better approach.  Just leave and keep your mouth shut.

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

This is a LIV propaganda thread. Most/all pro-LIV posters are shills. The anti-LIV folks are just providing fact checking and countering the propaganda. You know that.

 

Why not leave alone all the shills and those who watch over in the corner in their own echo-chamber?

[fbjim]

I think it's because LIV's raison d'etre is a tool to give it's owners control over the PGA Tour. 

 

Frankly LIV could actually pay it's golfers half a billion dollars to sit at home and scratch their balls, and accomplish the same thing, as long as they aren't playing in PGA Tour events. I think this is actually what Jon Rahm is basically doing. 

[ThinkingPlus]

12 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Why not leave alone all the shills and those who watch over in the corner in their own echo-chamber?

Maybe I want them to earn their paycheck. Maybe it's entertaining to see just what level of stupidity will dribble out of their keyboards.

[smashdn]

19 minutes ago, fbjim said:

I think it's because LIV's raison d'etre is a tool to give it's owners control over the PGA Tour. 

 

What do they gain when they control it?  Why not attempt to control something bigger and more global than a US based golf tour?

 

I am probably naïve to their motives.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I just get tickled few here can objectively discuss it with minimal bias.  I also am perplexed how so many have these deeper reasons for why they can't watch golf for golf.  That is my bias I guess.  I only watch golf for the golf shots, not for the "tension fit to be cut with a knife" or places in history for the players.  Did you hit a cool golf shot?  Did it turn out how you wanted it?  How close to the hole did you get it given the difficulty of what you were attempting?  Pretty shallow stuff.

 

I have a limited time to watch golf.

 

I have ESPN+, GC, and the networks, so I have PGAT golf nearly every weekend, usually from about the time I wake up until the late afternoon (West Coast here). I know who the golfers are. They're all playing in the same hemisphere so on the same time slot as the US, and I'm watching live. Many of these tournaments have history and prestige. It feels like winning means something. 

 

LIV broadcast time slots conflict with the PGA Tour broadcasts, so I am basically forced to choose. They could have had events Mon-Wed, meaning that any PGAT fan would be able to watch both on the weeks they both have events. But they didn't. They went Fri-Sun. They only have 14 events, which means I don't really have much of a clue when they're on or where they are. Of those 14, close to half are overseas, so I'm not watching live, it's time-delayed. Takes a lot of suspense out of it when you know it already happened and a quick google search would tell you the result. With only 14 events, that means the other weeks I either have to watch the PGA Tour and I have less engagement with the golfers because I'm splitting my attention between two tours, one of which gives me less content. 

 

When I compare the content head-to-head, the overall talent draw on LIV is far less IMHO than the PGAT. They have some very good players, but then they've got a lot of has-beens and never-will-bes, and that's not all that compelling. It's limited fields so winning means less to me, because beating 53 guys is easier than beating 143. Larger fields means the value of the win goes up. Note: I'm on record as being against the limited fields used in Signature Events. I hate it. But one advantage that the Signature Events have is that the field is going to be star-studded in a way that LIV can't even remotely match. It's 54 holes, which IMHO also has an effect of randomness that a 72-hole event doesn't. For the same reason as the limited fields--it's easier to sustain a heater as a less talented player for 54 holes than it is for 72 holes, so the value of a 72 hole win is IMHO higher than that of a 54 hole win. 

 

So the LIV product is less available than the PGAT, is IMHO inferior to the PGAT, and that makes it not worth following. And if it's not worth following, to the point where I become invested in the players, it also means that I'm not just going to randomly watch a LIV tournament when a PGAT event is ongoing, because I am not invested in the players. I don't just want to "watch golf shots". I want those shots to be meaningful. LIV isn't meaningful to me, so I'd rather watch something that is. 

 

In short, there will only be one premier golf tour in the world. There really only can be. LIV is trying to be that, but their product quite frankly ain't as good. And as Omar said:

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

36 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I question why there needs to be PGAT facts in the LIV thread.  They are different.  Fine to be different.  You can like one or the other or neither or both.  Both sides.  Why run one down in an attempt to build the other up?  It doesn't work that way because it is not either or.

 

As a shortened version of my last post, it basically IS either/or. PGAT is on TV Thu->Sun from [West Coast] early morning until late afternoon. LIV is on TV Fri->Sun from late morning until late afternoon. (I think; I don't know their actual broadcast hours.)

 

This by nature makes them direct competitors. And we have both PGAT and LIV facts in the same thread because being direct competitors, it makes perfect sense to compare them relative to each other. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I find that those who like LIV have an axe to grind with the tour often more than actually liking liv

 

Where those who don’t like liv, and let’s face it, based on livs ratings/fan interest, it’s the vast majority of golf fans,

 

are objectively saying

 

it just stinks. 

A few hundred pages ago I had said something similar….that the LIV lovers were the guys you knew in college that were always yelling “down with the establishment “.

[CDM]

On 6/30/2024 at 3:23 PM, dcmidnight said:

 

LIV fans keep brining up ratings or making smart-a comments about ratings - then when you get proven wildly wrong its like oh wait, we dont want to talk about ratings lol.

 

Not even a week ago it was oh what do you think, the WNBA will outdraw LIV with a game between two losing teams? Oh right, it was the highest rated game in WNBA history.

 

But whatever.

 

I'll bite, but not per se the reasons you are noting...

 

I have stated the PGAT ratings are down in a few of my post, more so on why sponsors are pulling back, etc.  more the business aspects as I have noted I see this is a business not golf. That and Golf Channel keep stating it too so it was kind of in your face at times.

 

LIV ratings are bad for in the US, plain and simple and that fact that CW  as I recall does not report to Nielsen is also odd. 

 

As to viewership, more so "streaming" I question all the validity of that.   I spent the last 3 weeks out the country with the family and friends.  Friend who I  golf all the time with and we both are really wondering on this "streaming" numbers now. (France/Greece/Turkey) 

 

We found out quck trying to watch the US Open that It is not easy to watch US golf "across the pond" even if you have accounts to watch them.

 

US Open:  The only way to we could watch it was to force it on our laptops. We logged into the USGA website it said not allowed for access for the country you reside with a big disclaimer about media/broadcast rights.   

 

To test further we logged into personnal accounts (Youtube Tv, Directv, Prime with channels, etc.) and it would say the same aspects on broadcasting was not allowed based on media rights agreements, even though we live and pay for the services in the US. 

 

*We just "adjusted" the virtual VPN location like anyone would that knows how so we could watch.

 

PGA Tour:  To see if that was the same we deicded to try this on PGAT events.  Exactly the same, actually they have it on more lock down it seemed.  They for sure know how to control meida rights well.   100% not viable based on media/broadcast rights.  What was surprising is everyone is noting the APP is where most are watching now and the decline on TV ratings, well it has to be in the US as the it will not stream outside the US unless you VPN it to work like we did for the US open..... period.   It was fully blocked. 

 

LIV: Crap shoot.  If we tried through service providers we have we got the same media broadcast rights issue statement from those providers.   IF we used the app it streamed but not perfect for note.  (*at times was pausing on and off and could have been the wifi connectiion but we did not notice that with other two for note so wondering about that app).  Zero issue on broad cast rights but I assume since they own and broadcast their own product is why. 

 

Greece/Turkey are not golf countries at all though there is "minor" intrest so we figured nothing of those.

 

The one shocker was France where they do like golf.  At a bar watching "football" matches (some great matches....!) they had the replay of LIV on a couple of TV's in the bar.  Delayed replay like in the states but was shocked it was even on. 

 

Taking with a few locals they said there is zero PGAT events broadcast over there since they do not have media contracts. Only DP events. To get updates they go online to see highlights on Youtube.   Personally thought that was a bit odd as the DP Tour and PGAT are basically the same ownership now so figured maybe the elevated events would be broadcast?  LIV they can stream freely and do not have to pay at all for it so they just stream it ..... <---not a great business model but  I guess they are getting it out there??   

 

Regardless we found it is not as easy to watch US Golf outside the US. 

 

Funny thing bs'ing about golf, part of the Olympics, Ryder cup being held at same course, etc. it is really clear they have zero opinion on PGA Tour / LIV divide.... I mean they think it is stupid it is even a debate.   They just want to see great golf by great players.  *It  made me think how AUS events gets a ton of fans, as they just want to see top players play and dont care about PGAT/LIV divide. 

 

A few joked that is how we (US) people are.... "Why do we care, it is just a US thing, you people think you own everything"    🙄

 

Edit:  Ooooo and they all hope that Pavon wins the gold.... 🤣

Edited Wednesday at 09:28 PM by CDM

[PedronNiall]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Nothing.  Which is what I said. And what you missed, predictably, again.  The word was bias.  The phrase was "with minimal bias."

 

It isn't hard to understand that everyone thinks differently, it is hard to have a discussion where most are clouded by their personal biases.  At this point it is jarringly predictable.

 

What's hard to understand for me is how you're an unrelenting defender of the RB's and their rollback for the "purity" of the game and all that jazz while also an unabashed lover of LIV because at it's core it's also "pure golf" in your eyes and should be enjoyed. That you're able to toe both those lines without finding any difficulty implies that you indeed see the world in a very different way than most.

 

It's unlikely you'll come across many who espouse nostalgia and a love for the classic parts of the game while also wholeheartedly supporting the main entity most responsible for putting professional golf's continuation in jeopardy. To me, it makes no sense.

[betarhoalphadelta]

29 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

What's hard to understand for me is how you're an unrelenting defender of the RB's and their rollback for the "purity" of the game and all that jazz while also an unabashed lover of LIV because at it's core it's also "pure golf" in your eyes and should be enjoyed. That you're able to toe both those lines without finding any difficulty implies that you indeed see the world in a very different way than most.

 

It's unlikely you'll come across many who espouse nostalgia and a love for the classic parts of the game while also wholeheartedly supporting the main entity most responsible for putting professional golf's continuation in jeopardy. To me, it makes no sense.

 

 

[tomjas]

6 hours ago, fbjim said:

I think it's because LIV's raison d'etre is a tool to give it's owners control over the PGA Tour. 

 

Frankly LIV could actually pay it's golfers half a billion dollars to sit at home and scratch their balls, and accomplish the same thing, as long as they aren't playing in PGA Tour events. I think this is actually what Jon Rahm is basically doing. 

Oh sure, a 54 player tour with most of its tournaments outside the US is going to control the PGA Tour 

 

Nobody thinks that

[Archimedes65]

 

Every day that goes by without a PGA Tour/PIF deal announcement is a good day in my book.  Still hoping that they don’t come to an agreement and just choose to go their separate ways.  Competition is good for the sport and will force the PGA Tour to continue to improve it’s product.

[leezer99]

With four events left in the regular season, the prospect of being relegated has to be creeping into the minds of the bottom of the barrel players. Only problem is that I have no idea how it's working this year. IIRC the wildcard players and captains are exempt from relegation but what about the reserve players? If a captain is in the relegation zone, do they move up the chain to relegate other players?

 

Your wildcards are: Anthony Kim and Hudson Swafford

Reserves: Ben Campbell, Laurie Canter, Luis Carrera, John Caitlin and Wade Ormsby

 

So who from this list is in danger?

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, CDM said:

 

 

LIV ratings are bad for in the US, plain and simple and that fact that CW  as I recall does not report to Nielsen is also odd. 

 

CW reports Nielsen ratings on all of their shows.

 

LIV is not shown for their own reasons.

 

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-quietly-stopped-reporting-tv-ratings/?amp=1

Edited Thursday at 02:14 PM by Shilgy

[freeze16172002]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

CW reports Nielsen ratings on all of their shows.

 

LIV is not shown for their on reasons.

 

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-quietly-stopped-reporting-tv-ratings/?amp=1

Because it is dismal, the CW affiliates have to be liv'id at the revenue loss. Party of Five or Funny Videos would bring in 4x's the ad revenue than the LIV mess running 6 hours on Saturday and Sunday

Edited Thursday at 04:15 PM by freeze16172002

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, freeze16172002 said:

Because it is dismal, the CW affiliates have to be liv'id at the revenue loss. Party of Five or Funny Videos would bring in 4x's the ad revenue then the LIV mess running 6 hours on Saturday and Sunday

 

Not to mention that the CW isn’t even available in certain areas.  I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 channels on my Xfinity subscription, including randos like The Tennis Channel and Zona Futbol.  No CW.  How long before LIV announces the ‘strategic decision’ to go streaming only?

[Rapidcat]

2 hours ago, leezer99 said:

With four events left in the regular season, the prospect of being relegated has to be creeping into the minds of the bottom of the barrel players. Only problem is that I have no idea how it's working this year. IIRC the wildcard players and captains are exempt from relegation but what about the reserve players? If a captain is in the relegation zone, do they move up the chain to relegate other players?

 

Your wildcards are: Anthony Kim and Hudson Swafford

Reserves: Ben Campbell, Laurie Canter, Luis Carrera, John Caitlin and Wade Ormsby

 

So who from this list is in danger?

 

 

 

 

At least both Vincents, maybe Pat Perez.

[bscinstnct]

Never knew LIV had tried and failed to secure a Friday broadcast partner

 

LIV Golf fails to land Friday TV partner in time for 2024 season

 

At the start of the LIV offseason in October, the league’s media team set a relatively straightforward goal: to add a second network partner in the United States. LIV still had another year on its agreement with the CW, yes, but that partnership only included the league’s Saturday and Sunday broadcasts. 

 

But now, two weeks into the ’24 season, it appears a deal still hasn’t materialized. 

 

 

In December, network sources told GOLF‘s Dylan Dethier that LIV’s total revenue from the 2023 season on the CW likely didn’t exceed $3 million — 

 

 

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-2024-broadcast-friday-hot-mic/?amp=1

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Not to mention that the CW isn’t even available in certain areas.  I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 channels on my Xfinity subscription, including randos like The Tennis Channel and Zona Futbol.  No CW.  How long before LIV announces the ‘strategic decision’ to go streaming only?

CW is actually available over the air in many markets, including plenty of mid and small markets. 

Edited Thursday at 04:06 PM by BlackDiamondPar5

[subrew]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Not to mention that the CW isn’t even available in certain areas.  I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 channels on my Xfinity subscription, including randos like The Tennis Channel and Zona Futbol.  No CW.  How long before LIV announces the ‘strategic decision’ to go streaming only?

 

On my Xfinity package it is right next to the other broadcast channels.  My channel list goes Fox, NBC, PBS, CW, CBS, ABC.  Our local affiliate owns the NBC, CW, and CBS channels.  When LIV and PGAT are on at the same time, they are literally one channel apart.  

 

I

[Archimedes65]

7 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

CW is actually available over the air in many markets, including plenty of mid and small markets. 

 

So all I need to do is put an antenna on my roof, circa 1974?  Sounds easy… 🙂

 

I’m the perfect straw man for a LIV focus group.  I don’t have an issue with the Saudi angle, I don’t have a problem with greed on the part of the athletes, and I don’t have a die on the hill allegiance to the PGA Tour.  In fact, I’m Monahan’s smallest fan.  But, I have zero interest in watching LIV golf for the simple reason that the product they’ve developed stinks.  But if others, especially younger golfers, love it, that’s totally cool to me.  There’s a lot of stuff if life that I don’t like, that I don’t for a minute begrudge other people from loving.  Taylor Swift for one thing…

 

If LIV offered a compelling product, I’d certainly watch it.  Even though they drafted many of the most unlikable golfers on the Tour, I’d still watch it,  if I liked the product. But I don’t.  But I like the fact that it’s there for other folks to love and it’s going to locations the Tour doesn’t.  Which is why, again, I hope that it does not merge with the PGA Tour.

[cdnglf]

Hey, there’s a LIV Hot Dog Tour now.

 

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/joey-chestnut-downs-57-hot-011435155.html

 

 

[stinger_gc]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:50 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

This is a LIV propaganda thread. Most/all pro-LIV posters are shills. The anti-LIV folks are just providing fact checking and countering the propaganda. You know that.

Stinger GC is a billion dollar franchise and you can’t tell me otherwise 

[stinger_gc]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

CW reports Nielsen ratings on all of their shows.

 

LIV is not shown for their own reasons.

 

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-quietly-stopped-reporting-tv-ratings/?amp=1

I still remember the LIV Phoenix playoff got bumped for family guy reruns last year.