Open versus Closed Stance

[BigEx44]

As someone who has hit mostly from a slightly open stance the last few years - I've recently been experimenting with a slightly closed stance in order to see if I could pick up some distance in my advancing years (hard to think I'm about to turn 65!)

 

And I do feel like I've picked up some good distance with my irons, especially when I manage to get more turn with my shoulders (something I've always struggled with).  I also love the draw ball flight.  The irons feel very comfortable with this stance.  While playing on the Sim I'm actually now missing greens because I'm hitting the ball too well (launching them long....a nice problem to have as I re-calibrate my iron distances).

 

However, I've struggled with my longer clubs (driver and fairway woods) with this closed stance.  When I've managed to put a good swing on the ball, I do get more distance and a nice draw. 

 

The problem is that's happening only about 30% of the time.  The other shots I either:  1) leave out way right because I don't quite get the clubhead turned over  2) I hook the ball into trouble or 3) I lose a lot of distance, because for whatever reason, the closed stance doesn't feel as comfortable to me with the longer clubs and I struggle with an OTT move.  I have trouble keeping my upper body (and especially my right shoulder) back.

 

When I go back to the open stance with my longer clubs - my accuracy increases (by a lot).  Feels easier to keep my right shoulder back.  Good swings distance wise are slightly shorter with an open stance versus the good swings with my closed stance.  But my confidence in hitting the fairway are soooo much higher.  I hit more consistently good shots.  Ball flight tends to be straight or with a slight fade.

 

So I was thinking about using a slightly closed stance for my irons and a slightly open stance for my driver and fairway woods.

 

But then I thought - who the heck has ever done that?  Seems totally opposite from someone like Hogan who went from slightly open to slightly closed as the clubs got longer.  Why I am finding the opposite with my swing?

 

I know my swing tends to be steep.  So maybe with the shorter irons that works well with a closed stance?  With my open stance I did battle thin iron shots (especially with my full swing wedges) and mentally it felt like it was tough to come from the inside - whereas I haven't battled any of those issues with my closed stance.

 

But my driver and woods are a totally different story.

 

I'm so confused!

 

Just curious as to people's thoughts.

[dsmil]

If that works for you, go for it.

 

Regarding distance, closing someone’s stance and playing draws does often mean more distance on irons, but not with driver. You are usually lowering your loft at impact. With irons, a 6 iron goes further than a 7 iron but with a driver, an 8 degree driver doesn’t necessarily go further than a 10 degree driver because your launch and spin may get too low. Especially at slower speeds, that could be a bad recipe. So if a closed stance with irons and open stance with woods works for you, go for it.

[Pepperturbo]

Plenty of guys advancing in age get around to using a closed stance with driver.  It works too, except not for everyone.  You need to practice more, so your swing is more comfortable.  Because that stance is NOT normal for you, your swing isn't consistent, and down range shows it.

 

I've tried it more than a few times with Driver, it always feels uncomfortable.  However, with mid-short irons it's more natural, except it leads to a draw, which I don't always want.  I like hitting the ball straight.  If your stance is really closed, it will influence your swing, and not in a good way.

 

An acquaintance has a naturally closed stance, and controls the ball well, but he's been consistently using it for 30yrs.

[RobertBaron]

I’d make sure you’re actually closing your stance and not just closing your shoulders or just closing hips/feet while leaving shoulders in a neutral or open position 

[mikpga]

You’re dealing with the consequences of a path that is far too “from the inside”…

[NoTalentLefty]

Been using a closed stance off and on for a few years now. It actually made me more accurate. Though I’d prefer to go MDLT method but can’t get two good rounds together to go that way. 
I also leave more weight on front foot in backswing do to hip replacements.

[SollyinGA]

I tend to mimic the Hogan foot positions. This was not on purpose, but it’s what I found that works for me.

 

If you’re using a SIM then, I’m sure you are watching your swing path numbers to make sure you are not hitting pulls from out-to-in swing paths that could be causing your issues? With most clubs it’s easy to tell, but once you get to the longer clubs, it’s very easy to be a degree or two ‘out-to-in’ and never know it. I have to really be on my front side after my transition before the downswing to have solid in-to-out numbers.

 

My natural swing is a draw. I have to hit a bit of a ‘push’ with all clubs. When I hit my longer clubs, I have to hit an even  bigger ‘push’ to control the draw. For example, I will push my driver 4 degrees and be 2.5 degrees in-to-out on my normal swing. This gives me a nice 10 yard draw fairly consistently. 

[BigEx44]

On 12/10/2022 at 1:50 PM, RobertBaron said:

I’d make sure you’re actually closing your stance and not just closing your shoulders or just closing hips/feet while leaving shoulders in a neutral or open position 

Shoulders are definitely square or closed as I've always made sure to be more aware of them at setup vs feet.

But thanks for the reminder.  I'll double check at my next session just to be 100% sure!

[BigEx44]

20 hours ago, mikpga said:

You’re dealing with the consequences of a path that is far too “from the inside”…

This could be true.

I've been trying to concentrate on getting a good should turn (an inherent weakness of mine as I've always been comfortable with more lift of my club on the BS with less turn).

Maybe in trying to "turn more" I'm getting the club too inside?

Or perhaps, it's more that I'm not used to hitting the ball from the inside at all?

Hmmmmm......

[aggiegolfer21]

There's a lot going on here.  It sounds like your path is too far right.  Without video it's going to be tough to diagnose.  I would guess just based on experience, though, that you're tilting too far behind the ball.  Does it feel like you finish really tall and bent back away from the target?

[me05501]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:42 AM, mikpga said:

You’re dealing with the consequences of a path that is far too “from the inside”…

 

This! 

 

I've been spending a lot of time on Trackman trying to optimize my driving lately. My best shots kept starting right/staying right. They had the most speed and went the longest but they were way off to the right. I tried a more closed setup to see if I could turn the ball over but it never worked. 

I was focused on my face angle numbers which tend to be +7 to +9, i.e. very open.

 

Finally out of desperation I engaged the Trackman "Traci" AI function. The first rec was to neutralize my path. Once I was able to do that I started hitting the ball online with a nice little draw. 

 

For me the quickest/most natural way of neutralizing my path is to set up more open and make the same swing I always do. Yes, it's probably still 7-9* from the inside relative to my toe line, but it is neutral to the target line so it works. Kind of a controlled push I guess. 

 

With this setup I'm able to swing harder and still control the flight which is nice. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by me05501

[Zitlow]

Aim left swing right was a saying I used to hear. 

[ChaosTheory]

IMO once you get to this point, you have to pick one: more turn back, or a better turn through.  I choose the latter for my driver because my swing is more powerful and consistent with a good turn through the ball.  And these days a driver draw or fade can each work fine.  Irons are not the same, an iron fade at low swing speeds is terrible for distance.
 

Most of us older players waste our backswings anyway.  Or get out of position or lose leverage by trying to turn beyond our limits.  If you or I could turn back fully AND turn through strongly, this wouldn’t be up for discussion.

 

 

[golfarb1]

The position of each respective hip socket is an important factor in the ability of the pelvis to move both in the backswing  and the downswing 

Closed stances setup with the rear hip socket more away from the target line and encourage a larger “ rotation ” of the pelvis  during the backswing . 
Open stances setup with the front hip socket more away from the target line and encourage  more “ rotation “ of the pelvis in the downswing .

 

As Snowman9000 mentioned there are consequences with each stance .

A closed stance will usually make it more difficult to rotate in the downswing , while an open stance will often restrict your turn going back . 
To further complicate the concept of open or closed stances is whether and how much one flares each foot . Flaring the feet at setup encourages external hip rotation , which in turn affects the way and amount that the pelvis moves .

Although “5 lessons “ suggested flaring the lead foot and setting up with an open stance with short irons and a closed stance with a driver , there are many top players who vary from these suggestions .

[ChipDriver]

You're 65.  Play your game, not somebody else's.  Same with golf - same with life.

 

If you get it - you get it.  🙂

 

With respect (I'm 60 and I play better golf now than 25 years ago based on the following) - the point of the game is to score well....not to look pretty.   At 65 you're not 25...it's harder to do things today than in the past - so by now I assume you've learned to adapt and accommodate b/c you want to (or have to).    Lessons are going to be helpful - to a point - because you're 65.  Information is going to be helpful - to a point - because you're 65.   If standing on your left foot makes you score better with irons - do it.  If standing on your right foot makes you hit better shots with driver - do it.  Because you're 65.  In the end - you probably don't/can't swing perfectly - and like all of us - you probably revert to some basic swing that you've always had for the last 30-40 years.  And you've learned to play it....or...you've constantly fought what is natural to you, for far too long.  🙂 

 

The benefit if age - is that you've learned that in a non-perfect world - you adapt, improve - move forward.  

 

In short - if you have to use 2 swings to score low - do it (at least until you learn the new band-aid (yes that's what it is...) and your score will be much better.  

Edited December 23, 2022 by ChipDriver

[BigEx44]

Just an update as I continue to experiment with an open vs closed stance (man I love these sims to be able to do this type of experimentation in the winter - no consequences and plenty of feedback and data!)

I have noticed about a 20 yard distance gain with my driver (220-->240) with my best drives from a closed stance vs my best drives from an open stance.

I've decided that at my age I can't ignore that kind of distance gain.

So I've decided to keep chasing the closed stance option with my driver.

At first, the added distance with the closed stance was with the sacrifice of accuracy which had me debating this whole open vs closed idea.

However, the more I use the closed stance, the more I learn, and the more comfortable I get - so the accuracy gap is closing (vs my open stance)

Although I still think I'm slightly more accurate with the open stance.

So I'm thinking maybe what I do is used the closed stance for most of my drives and only open it up for tight fairways where accuracy is required.

I'll keep experimenting.....

Edited December 23, 2022 by BigEx44

[Jbarretta]

If you play golf with your lead arm being dominant (right handed playing lefty and left handed playing righty) I think open stance.  My hypothesis is the lead side is powering the swing and moving faster than the trail side so we need help getting the trail shoulder  down and around with an open stance 

[st1800e]

As an old guy, I know that this is all about #1, flexibility and #2, strength..  a stretching regimen will help a lot. Trying to manipulate things will for the most part require different swings for different clubs.  Fitness is the key , we’re losing it as we get older, but you can stave off the passage of time with some basic stretching and strength training.  Not trying to turn you into DJ, a couple times a week, with some pre round stretching will make a world of difference.  

[Jbarretta]

I think it's important if you play with an open stance to make sure you take the club back inside and make sure you get enough hand depth.  Anyone else agree?

[st1800e]

What do you mean by “Hand Depth”?

[Jbarretta]

6 hours ago, st1800e said:

What do you mean by “Hand Depth”?

At top of backswing hand behind trail shoulder 

[CB67]

 

[golfarb1]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:13 PM, Jbarretta said:

At top of backswing hand behind trail shoulder 

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Edited May 5, 2023 by golfarb1

[pingfool]

On 12/25/2022 at 12:28 AM, Jbarretta said:

If you play golf with your lead arm being dominant (right handed playing lefty and left handed playing righty) I think open stance.  My hypothesis is the lead side is powering the swing and moving faster than the trail side so we need help getting the trail shoulder  down and around with an open stance 

100% on lefty playing righty and having better results with open stance. Right eye dominant is also a factor in stance

[Jbarretta]

52 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

 

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I've seen this and I know it's measured but I'm not sure I agree it's for everybody   if you don't overbend the trail arm and keep it less than 90 degrees you can still get hand depth behind the trail shoulder and keep width.  if you are not making a two plane swing and you are coming down the same single plane you made on the backswing I think it works better to get the hands well behind the trail shoulder at the top.  It can be done without losing depth and without too much lead arm across the chest  

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

I've seen this and I know it's measured but I'm not sure I agree it's for everybody   if you don't overbend the trail arm and keep it less than 90 degrees you can still get hand depth behind the trail shoulder and keep width.  if you are not making a two plane swing and you are coming down the same single plane you made on the backswing I think it works better to get the hands well behind the trail shoulder at the top.  It can be done without losing depth and without too much lead arm across the chest  

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You have chosen one of the ultimate examples of a golfer who illustrates the opposite of your point .

Look at videos of Rory  at 9:00 going back, NOT  at the top . His hands are not deep at that point , but over his trail knee. He perfectly illustrates  the point made in the previous graphic that I posted .

Getting the hands deep by 9:00 in the backswing vastly increases the probability of getting stuck at top unless the golfer truncates his shoulder turn and lifts his arms. Raymond Floyd is a good example of this . 

Edited December 28, 2022 by golfarb1

[Jbarretta]

6 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

You have chosen one of the ultimate examples of a golfer who illustrates the opposite of your point .

Look at videos of Rory  at 9:00 going back, NOT  at the top . His hands are not deep at that point , but over his trail knee. He perfectly illustrates  the point made in the previous graphic that I posted .

Getting the hands deep by 9:00 in the backswing vastly increases the probability of getting stuck at top unless the golfer truncates his shoulder turn and lifts his arms. Raymond Floyd is a good example of this . 

Would you consider this inside? For me I feel like it's very inside but maybe it's not 

 

 

[Rbsiedsc]

2 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

Would you consider this inside? For me I feel like it's very inside but maybe it's not 

 

 

Yes. The club head almost immediately comes inside of the path of the hands 

[golfarb1]

9 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

Would you consider this inside? For me I feel like it's very inside but maybe it's not 

 

 

Taking the clubhead back inside is not necessarily a problem. Sam Snead took it back inside, especially with a driver  , so did Raymond Floyd.

Taking the club back inside and rolling your forearms to open  the clubface is a potential disaster and is to be avoided at all costs . Fortunately , you do NOT open the clubface .

There are three main check points for an inside takeaway

1. shaft at first parallel-should point parallel to the target -Your shaft points  somewhat to the left , indicating an inside takeaway. But it does not point extremely to the left , so this checkpoint is more of a warning then a problem

2. How much your right arm has moved across your body and how deep your hands are when your right arm is at 9:00. This is exactly the point that was made in the graphics I posted .

Again not a real problem , but  more of a warning with your shaft pointing at or outside the ball and your trail elbow too bent at this point in the swing 

3. How straight your trail leg is when your lead arm is at 9:00. You should lose some of the brace of the rear leg during the backswing, but it should not be straight . Among other issues , a straight rear leg is a sure indication that your weight has moved too much into your rear  heel. 
Your rear leg looks to be too straight at 9:00

 

Suggestions 

Many swing issues start from the grip /takeaway . I can not see your grip , so I can not comment

A. With  a short iron , your UPPER trail arm should hang almost vertically( dtl view)  Doing so will place your body closer to the ball and minimize any inside takeaway. 

B. The front of your knees should be over the middle of your shoe laces . To do so, you need to bend your knees slightly more . When you bend your knees more , the angle of your thighs  will automatically increase at setup. 

C. Your trail arm is too bent at the top. Few top players bend their trail  arms more than 90 degrees . 
Among other problems , bending your trail arm too early and too much reduces hand width going back . Hand width has a positive correlation to clubhead speed .

 

Swing thoughts 

1.keep your trail arm straighter for longer in your backswing . 
At 9:00 ( front view) your trail elbow  should NOT be visible BELOW your lead arm. 

Drills 

Practice 9-3 drills with a minimum of bend in your trail arm. 

 

[Nard_S]

 

I have noodled this both ways. Opening stance to nail too inside path down the line and closing stance and allowing a more over the top move. The latter is better. Nothing wrong with closed driver and open wedge shift. Many Pro's have done that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hi