Inside takeaway is killing me

[Justsomeguy]

Happy with a lot of my swing, but a lot of days the takeaway is really inside, and on those days everything is a hook. I'm lucky on those days to hit pulls that find the left side of wide fairways.

What can I do setup wise or first move away (generally speaking) to get away from it? 

[Valtiel]

Proper wrist set in the takeaway is key. Almost everyone that drags it inside has a ratio problem with wrist flexion/extension and deviation. Often too much of the former and not enough of the latter. You can test this for yourself with a simple drill:

 

Take your normal address position with a club in hand and fully flex your left wrist and extend your right, basically bending them both to the right so the club head goes straight back (reverse for lefties). Now make a normal backswing from this position maintaining the wrist angles and notice how the club will naturally go very inside and flat.

 

Now reset but instead of full flexion/extension, do half as much and add radial deviation (hinging your wrists up). The club head should now pop up at a 45*ish angle in front you instead of straight back. Now make a swing from this position with those angles and notice how the club works more up and in front of you. 
 

Introducing that deviation into your normal takeaway is the key as the club can’t go too far inside if you’re properly hinging up. You’ll see many pros do drills to check on this e.g. taking the club to P2 and looking at the position. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Valtiel

[getitdaily]

Arms go up as the body turns.

 

Combine that with a push down on the grip with the left palm and a pull up on the grip with the index finger of the right hand and you swing the club up and back.

[tt81621]

The bane of my existence.  Early hip turn coupled with an excessive roll of the forearms had me almost horizontal going back.  The fix for me is just the opposite.  Calm the lower body down, no forearm roll (that is a feeling for me) and get the club head working up quicker.  I have been working on it for a while.  It is slowly getting better.  It feels pretty odd.  

 

The rolling of the forearms is the major flaw.  For me.  Forgot that part.  The rolling of the arms is MY major swing flaw.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by tt81621
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[Petethreeput]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Proper wrist set in the takeaway is key. Almost everyone that drags it inside has a ratio problem with wrist flexion/extension and deviation. Often too much of the former and not enough of the latter. You can test this for yourself with a simple drill:

 

Take your normal address position with a club in hand and fully flex your left wrist and extend your right, basically bending them both to the right so the club head goes straight back (reverse for lefties). Now make a normal backswing from this position maintaining the wrist angles and notice how the club will naturally go very inside and flat.

 

Now reset but instead of full flexion/extension, do half as much and add radial deviation (hinging your wrists up). The club head should now pop up at a 45*ish angle in front you instead of straight back. Now make a swing from this position with those angles and notice how the club works more up and in front of you. 
 

Introducing that deviation into your normal takeaway is the key as the club can’t go too far inside if you’re properly hinging up. You’ll see many pros do drills to check on this e.g. taking the club to P2 and looking at the position. 

Do you have a video or still photos?  I can’t really picture what you’re saying here.  Thanks

[mikpga]

Ball starts left because face is closed to target…

 

 

[KMeloney]

23 minutes ago, tt81621 said:

The rolling of the forearms is the major flaw.  

 

As a first move, probably. But as someone who hooks the ball as his miss, like the OP, keeping the face too closed going back is usually at least 75% of my problem if I don't recognize it early.

 

I'm convinced that I need to make sure I have forearm roll in my backswing. It just can't be an early wrist roll.

[FormerBigDaddy]

I personally believe that the hands/wrists/arms are set into motion by the turn. If you turn too flat, the arms roll, right elbow folds early, wrists hinge late. You arms go the direction of the turn based on momentum. 
 

Nobody here has mentioned tilting or using side bend in the takeaway. If you tilt as you turn the club will go up above the shaft plane and the club will stay outside your hands without doing anything with your hands/wrists/arms. From there the hands/wrists/arms just keep going that direction and everything should fall into place. At least theoretically. 
 

I think I recently discovered that tilting and using left side bend in the takeaway is only part of the swing. For me I have to consciously still work my arms up (what feels independently) to the top. Again, tilting to get the the club going where I want but then the arms have to keep going on that plane to the top. Momentum gets it going but for me I have to keep it going into the arms. Up until now I thought I could just tilt and do nothing with arms which got me all messed up. Eventuality your tilt/turn stalls out and you have to do something with the arms unless you extend your spine like crazy to create more fake turn. 
 

I’m no expert but I’d forget about doing it with your hands/arms/wrists early. Turn and tilt the club early and ride the momentum into your arms to put them over your trail shoulder. 
 

Easier for me to say than do. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[tt81621]

11 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

As a first move, probably. But as someone who hooks the ball as his miss, like the OP, keeping the face too closed going back is usually at least 75% of my problem if I don't recognize it early.

 

I'm convinced that I need to make sure I have forearm roll in my backswing. It just can't be an early wrist roll.

Oh man I have been down this rabbit hole a few times.  I actually hook the ball less if I focus on reducing the amount AND delaying the timing of the forearm roll.   I actually start to fade it which I haven't done in quite some time.   I theorize the club was getting far too open with the forearm roll and I was stalling and flipping to get the club back to square. 

 

My swing still has some forearm roll but the FEEL is that of left elbow down.  

 

I have been working this issue for a while!!!!  My swing has many issues but this seems to be the most problematic.  

[SC-TX 88]

Something that plagued me for the past 18 months that my coach and I finally hammered out recently with some force plates. My hips were not turning, so I was dragging my arms way inside to force my hips to turn/feel load in the trail leg.  I could always take the club down the target line/keep in front of me/etc but I would have no load at the top, turns out for whatever reason (my guess is lack of fitness past year with all life events going on) my core and hips got weak and I just stopped turning them. I would get to the top of my backswing and my hips would just start to move, resulting in an overly long arm swing from that point, coupled with being inside. 

[Liveonce]

I would search Mike Bender Cone drill. Do a lot of those reps. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, Liveonce said:

I would search Mike Bender Cone drill. Do a lot of those reps. 

Yeah but the method you use to do the reps is what matters.  I would stay away from trying to do it with hands/wrists/arms and figure out how to do it with you body tilting/turning. 

[glk]

simple drill

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

17 minutes ago, glk said:

simple drill

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

 

This video is the exact reason why there is so much confusion.

 

As he puts the shaft into his stomach he says "As I rotate my body and turn in the takeaway" but as he demonstrates the move he's clearly tilting as he's turning.  I swear 99% of amature golfers hear rotate and turn and the club immediately goes inside the hands if you don't also tilt.  The only way to turn/rotate and the club not go inside and below the plane, without using tilt, is the manipulate the club with your hands/arms.  By either lifting (or pushing them away from you) or doing the funky vertical wrist hinge like a hammer.  If you tilt and turn then you don't have to think about the hands/arms.

 

Not saying you can't have a good takeaway without tilting but you cannot just turn and rotate.  This is such a mixed message and the reason why so many of us struggle with what's supposed to be a simple move.

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[Liveonce]

22 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah but the method you use to do the reps is what matters.  I would stay away from trying to do it with hands/wrists/arms and figure out how to do it with you body tilting/turning. 

that’s the cone drill I referenced 

[glk]

3 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

This video is the exact reason why there is so much confusion.

 

As he puts the shaft into his stomach he says "As I rotate my body and turn in the takeaway" but as he demonstrates the move he's clearly tilting as he's turning.  I swear 99% of amature golfers hear rotate and turn and the club immediately goes inside the hands if you don't also tilt.  The only way to turn and rotate and the club not go inside your hands, without using tilt, is the manipulate the club with your hands/arms.  By either lifting (or pushing them away from you) or doing the funky vertical wrist hinge like a hammer.  If you tilt and turn then you don't have to think about the hands/arms.

 

Not saying you can't have a good takeaway without tilting but you cannot just turn and rotate.  This is such a mixed message and the reason why so many of us struggle with what's supposed to be a simple move.

What?   you do set up in a forward tilt.   My goodness you are way confused and over thinking things.   It's not that hard.

[FormerBigDaddy]

3 minutes ago, glk said:

What?   you do set up in a forward tilt.   My goodness you are way confused and over thinking things.   It's not that hard.

Correct, but if you just turn the club goes under plane and inside.  You HAVE to increase left side bend as you rotate (tilt). You say it's not that hard b/c it may come natural to you and you may not even feel that you're doing it.  Which is why we're probably in this place talking about it.

 

If you don't use side bend/tilt the club never gets going up.  @MonteScheinblum has used this exact example as to why he hates the one piece takeaway.  Almost all high HC golfers hear just turn and when they do the club gets sucked inside and low.  You have to use side bend/tilt in order for the club to go up at all using this method.  Which most instructors NEVER talk about.

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[Krt22]

So easy a little kid learned it, song and all

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmR90ecJE9u/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[jholz]

Jim Waldron and the "Arm Swing Illusion" helped sort me out. Common fault, several effective ways to think about the solution.

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

So easy a little kid learned it, song and all

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmR90ecJE9u/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Yeah... this video shows exactly my point.  He demo's a club getting sucked low and inside from just turning with no tilt and no arm lift.  Then he shows the correct move by tilting and no arm lift.  My point is i wish instructors would address that you HAVE to tilt/increase lead side bend as you rotate for the club to go up and stay on plane and outside the hands.

[llewol007]

I’m no teacher but here is something you can try. Most times, the inside takeaway can be due to a very closed stance. Similar se up to a player trying to play a sharp draw.  I suggest at the driving range or even on the golf course to go extreme and open up the lead foot to where you are promoting more of an out to in swing. Like players who play the fade or cut. Kinda like Rahm. I have a feeling that you are set up very closed which can be causing the aggressive inside take away and this can help to straighten it out.

[glk]

4 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Correct, but if you just turn the club goes under plane and inside.  You HAVE to increase left side bend as you rotate (tilt). You say it's not that hard b/c it may come natural to you and you may not even feel that you're doing it.  Which is why we're probably in this place talking about it.

 

If you don't use side bend/tilt the club never gets going up.  @MonteScheinblum has used this exact example as to why he hates the one piece takeaway.  Almost all high HC golfers hear just turn and when they do the club gets sucked inside and low.  You have to use side bend/tilt in order for the club to go up at all using this method.  Which most instructors NEVER talk about.

Actually I suffered from getting the club head inside early - cause I overused my arms and upper body with a relatively inert lower body - I fixed two things with one stone courtesy to iteach teaching me how the club should move around the body via the stick drill - with work I learned to move my body and arms together better and to move the club in a steep to shallow pattern.    Folks I see on here major reason for inside is similar to my past - don't know how to use the knees and hips properly in coordination with the upper body - been told swing the arms and the body will react - that is true that the body will react but mostly it does so poorly.

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, jholz said:

Jim Waldron and the "Arm Swing Illusion" helped sort me out. Common fault, several effective ways to think about the solution.

The ASI is all about turning without tilting/increasing lead side bend early while pushing your arms away from you in the takeaway.  This is a method that works but is NOT the same as what so many teach when they say "just turn and rotate."  If you're gonna turn flatter you're going to have to push your hands/arms away to keep it from going inside.  If you want to "just turn" then you'll need to tilt/increase left side bend to get the club going up.

 

To me there are 3 distinct methods and golf instructors get us all confused by not explaining which ones apply to what.

 

1.  Turn and tilt in one piece (no hands/arms. Tilting/increasing lead side bend gets the club up on plane)

2.  Turn and hinge (vertical hinge gets club going up on plane)

3. Turn and lift (arms get the club going up on plane)

 

Tell me i'm wrong.... ill wait.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah... this video shows exactly my point.  He demo's a club getting sucked low and inside from just turning with no tilt and no arm lift.  Then he shows the correct move by tilting and no arm lift.  My point is i wish instructors would address that you HAVE to tilt/increase lead side bend as you rotate for the club to go up and stay on plane and outside the hands.

Did you completely miss the part of simply hinging the club vertically? Simply changing the intent from "low and slow" to "hinge the club vertically" can fix multiple problems at once without getting into such details.

 

I agree a good pivot includes turning and tilting, but it doesn't always need to be explained as such. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Did you completely miss the part of simply hinging the club vertically? Simply changing the intent from "low and slow" to "hinge the club vertically" can fix multiple problems at once without getting into such details.

 

I agree a good pivot includes turning and tilting, but it doesn't always need to be explained as such. 

Yep that’s method 2 I described. But you can’t pair up a vertical wrist hinge with a turn that includes increasing lead side bend early.  If you did you’d see a clubhead so far outside the hands it would be comical.  My point exactly….

 

But if you turn flatter with less increase of tilt/increasing lead side bend paired with vertical wrist set you get a takeaway that looks very good. 

 

Different methods fit into different types of swings but confusion gets created when people mix and match them. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[jholz]

45 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

The ASI is all about turning without tilting/increasing lead side bend early while pushing your arms away from you in the takeaway.  This is a method that works but is NOT the same as what so many teach when they say "just turn and rotate."  If you're gonna turn flatter you're going to have to push your hands/arms away to keep it from going inside.  If you want to "just turn" then you'll need to tilt/increase left side bend to get the club going up.

 

To me there are 3 distinct methods and golf instructors get us all confused by not explaining which ones apply to what.

 

1.  Turn and tilt in one piece (no hands/arms. Tilting/increasing lead side bend gets the club up on plane)

2.  Turn and hinge (vertical hinge gets club going up on plane)

3. Turn and lift (arms get the club going up on plane)

 

Tell me i'm wrong.... ill wait.

 

 

Um...nah. I'm not gonna tell you that you are wrong. Golf is confusing AF.

 

For me, it's the "pushing your arms away from you in the takeaway" part of the Arm Swing Illusion that made sense.

 

I guess I've never really thought too much about all that other stuff.

[FormerBigDaddy]

13 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

 

Um...nah. I'm not gonna tell you that you are wrong. Golf is confusing AF.

 

For me, it's the "pushing your arms away from you in the takeaway" part of the Arm Swing Illusion that made sense.

 

I guess I've never really thought too much about all that other stuff.

Yeah pushing your arms away from ASI works for people who like to turn flatter. Falls under turn and lift category. 
 

But again, if you turned with tilt but also tried to push away/lift your arms, you’d look like Matt Wolff. He’s a perfect example of some who goes left shoulder down and lifts arms vertically. Most people who focus hard on left shoulder down don’t need much arm lift at all. The early lead side bend/tilt takes the arms where they need to go. 
 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 hour ago, glk said:

simple drill

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

 

Here’s me doing that “simple” drill. Instructors say if you turn too flat your head lifts. How can that be true? How come I can “turn” 2 different ways doing this drill without my head lifting?

 

I’m actually wanting a response from you bc this is exactly what my issue is. 
 

[MMB1500]

 

[glk]

1 hour ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Here’s me doing that “simple” drill. Instructors say if you turn too flat your head lifts. How can that be true? How come I can “turn” 2 different ways doing this drill without my head lifting?

 

I’m actually wanting a response from you bc this is exactly what my issue is. 
 

IMG_0693.MOV

On what instructors say, I don't know who says if you turn flat you lift your head - folks do all kinds of things but turning flat doesn't auto lead to standing up - more typical in turning flat is that folks lift their arms at the end of the backswing cause if they didn't then they would swing them way behind and not up - like in your first attempt - you aren't turning flat but if you continued your motion either you lift the arms or you swing them way behind and below your shoulders.

 

No drill or aid can't be done incorrectly.     In both swings you aren't letting the club leave your body -first time you keep it stuck your stomach way too long so naturally everything turns together - second one you do a better job of turning but still keep it stuck into your body.  In both cases, you fail to start  your wrists c0ck and stand the club up.

 

Here is another clip of Todd working with a student and talks about the drill.  

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFkD4GOlDC7/ 

 

Obviously getting in front of an instructor who will insure you do the drill correctly is important - issue with lots of video instruction is when the student goes and tries the drills (sans an instructor) they aren't doing it correctly - issues then abound.   Also it is good to actually do drills incorrectly as part of learning - goldilocks - so do Todd's drill too inside, then too outside, then just right - train the brain by teaching it boundaries.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by glk