USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

You got opposite of what you wanted.  You are affected close to the most, while the shorter guys are effected almost nil LOL.  They just crept closer to you.

How so ?   They won’t have a magic ball that only slows down for fast guys.  I’ll still be hitting 8-9 iron. Theyll be hitting 6. I’ll gain on the field. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by bladehunter

[SlothofDespond]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

How so ?   They won’t have a magic ball that only slows down for fast guys.  I’ll still be hitting 8-9 iron. Theyll be hitting 6. I’ll gain on the field. 

 

Right? The USGA is effectively lengthening courses. Longer players might see more total distance lost but anything that lengthens the course favors longer hitters.

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, SlothofDespond said:

 

Right? The USGA is effectively lengthening courses. Longer players might see more total distance lost but anything that lengthens the course favors longer hitters.

Bingo.  I been yelling it. I wanted them to leave the ball alone. Shrink the driver to sub 300cc or about there and  regulate it that way. If you can middle the face.  Rock and roll. If you can’t. Welcome to the trees.  I said a milllon times they’d just hand our advantage back with a ball rollback.  
 

At least we may see some more mid iron play from short tour guys.  😂. But I’m sure the tour will move tees up to protect their product.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by bladehunter

[EagleGSU]

Hopefully we get some data soon that shows what balls on the market currently are conforming to the new standards, and which are "going to far". 

[clevited]

10 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

How so ?   They won’t have a magic ball that only slows down for fast guys.  I’ll still be hitting 8-9 iron. Theyll be hitting 6. I’ll gain on the field. 

 

You are losing a club, they are losing less.  The percentage of distance loss goes down in each category they show in their graph.

[subrew]

26 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

How so ?   They won’t have a magic ball that only slows down for fast guys.  I’ll still be hitting 8-9 iron. Theyll be hitting 6. I’ll gain on the field. 

 

The current balls already "magically" slow down for slow guys.  The distance spread from longest to shortest at fast speeds amongst current balls can be 18-20 yards.  When hit at much slower speeds, those distance gaps condense down to 10-12 yards.  

 

And if you look at longest ball and shortest balls at highest speeds, they often swap positions at slower swing speeds.  So the distance gap goes from 18 yards at higher swing speeds, to -2 yards at slower speeds.  The short balls from the fast test, actually become the longest balls at slow tests.

 

It isn't magic.  It's the current state of balls already on the market that have to pass the existing tests.

 

You really should look at the data of some of the more recent ball tests.  

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bingo.  I been yelling it. I wanted them to leave the ball alone. Shrink the driver to sub 300cc or about there and  regulate it that way. If you can middle the face.  Rock and roll. If you can’t. Welcome to the trees.  I said a milllon times they’d just hand our advantage back with a ball rollback.  
 

At least we may see some more mid iron play from short tour guys.  😂. But I’m sure the tour will move tees up to protect their product.  

I don’t have data other than ancedotal data, but I think amateurs/average golfers would be impacted far more shrinking the driver.  Far more than this proposed ball rollback will.

[PowderedToastMan]

Remember the outrage when the USGA outlawed box grooves? Everyone on here was livid. So was everyone on tour. Next to no one cares about this anymore. It was essentially forgotten within the year it was implemented. I believe this ball change will be exactly the same. The best in the world will be given a ball in late 2025, dial it in with their GCQuads and play it with no discernable difference in 2026. They'll hit a 6 iron instead of a 7 iron into a short par 5. It will make the game statistically harder for the pros, but barely, half a stroke over the course of a season maybe. 

 

For the best players in the world, the v groove change was a slight nuisance that makes the game slightly harder from the rough. We don't even care about it anymore. It actually makes golf on TV more interesting because sometimes players will hit those monster flyers out of the rough. I think this ball change will be much the same in how it impacts the game-very little. The average golfer is not going to notice this change. I'm sure they'll be like "I USED TO HIT IT 300 ON THIS HOLE" while everyone else in the group knows that person hit it 300 once and it smashed the cart path. 

 

The USGA will be coming for driver size next. 460 cc drivers will be things the next generation sees in pawn shops and dumpsters come 2040. 

[Pnwpingi210]

Really what this does is bring fairway bunkers and hazards back into play for the longest hitters.

 

Seems like watching the tour and the course I’m able to play there are fairway hazards somewhere in the neighborhood of 270-300.  Most pros or longer hitter can carry those without blinking.  And if you get past them it always seems like there is a speed slot of slope that propels you ball forward 60 yards.  So now that 300 yard drive is 360.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pnwpingi210

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Really what this does is bring fairway bunkers and hazards back into play for the longest hitters.

 

Seems like watching the tour and the course I’m able to play there are fairway hazards somewhere in the neighborhood of 270-300.  Most pros on longer hitter can carry those without blinking.  And if you get past them it always seems like there is a speed slot of slope that propels you ball forward 60 yards.  So now that 300 yard drive is 360.

 

I would bet money it does nothing at all.  Zip, zero, zilch.  They can optimize almost all of that away overnight.

 

Edit:  Or they can just swing harder which many of the longest have plenty in reserve.

Edited December 6, 2023 by clevited

[NJgolfer11]

Can you imagine telling an MLB pitcher?

"You can only throw a baseball this fast."

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, NJgolfer11 said:

Can you imagine telling an MLB pitcher?

"You can only throw a baseball this fast."

Well….they did lower the mound….

[CDLgolf]

24 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

You are losing a club, they are losing less.  The percentage of distance loss goes down in each category they show in their graph.

 

But how do they know this if the new balls haven't been invented yet.

[scores]

Dictators in golf -- at the USGA/RA -- why tell us how to play the game -- did they ever go back and take Tom Watson's title away at Pebble Nope. His Ball did not conform.

 

I think this is absolute crazy stuff making these changes - one guy from Callaway and one from Taylormade -(making the decisions). 

 

Well rounds are going to get a lot longer and i will not play any club tournaments.

 

 

 

Change golf ba

 

[DFS PFD]

1 minute ago, NJgolfer11 said:

Can you imagine telling an MLB pitcher?

"You can only throw a baseball this fast."

No one is slowing down the speed they swing the club. Swing and a miss. 

[Simpsonia]

40 minutes ago, idrive said:

Reading that the current ball will probably, possibly be conforming when the roll back comes to fruition four- five years from now?

 

Why not just stop anymore advancements with the ball? Just freeze it as it is now.

 

Much like when the max COR for the driver was established.

 

Manufactures aren't going to lose money if this happens. People still have to buy golf balls.

 

Literally everything we currently use has been frozen in the rules for 20 years or more. The COR was pegged in '98, ball speed velocity rules were in '02 (I believe), and 460cc driver head was '03 or '04. The average distance of PGAT driving distance leaders has also been static for 20 years or more (Hank Kuehne averaged 321.4 in 2003; Rory averaged 326 in 2023). 

[subrew]

17 minutes ago, NJgolfer11 said:

Can you imagine telling an MLB pitcher?

"You can only throw a baseball this fast."

 

Yes I can.  Because the ball has in fact changed.  Some specifically aimed at slowing it down, providing less purchase on it for less action etc.  Shallower laces and seams, slicker covers etc.  It appears they actually played two different balls in 2021.

 

https://www.insider.com/mlb-used-two-balls-again-this-year-and-evidence-points-to-a-third-2022-12

 

Way back in the day, American League and National League used different balls.  Differences to laces, lace protrusion etc.  One was better for pitching, one was better for hitting.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by subrew

[TheMoneyShot]

USGA/R&A - total ball dropped here (no pun intended)…

[GoGoErky]

50 minutes ago, idrive said:

Reading that the current ball will probably, possibly be conforming when the roll back comes to fruition four- five years from now?

 

Why not just stop anymore advancements with the ball? Just freeze it as it is now.

 

Much like when the max COR for the driver was established.

 

Manufactures aren't going to lose money if this happens. People still have to buy golf balls.

 

11 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I would bet money it does nothing at all.  Zip, zero, zilch.  They can optimize almost all of that away overnight.

 

Edit:  Or they can just swing harder which many of the longest have plenty in reserve.

Its already frozen, has been for 20+ years and there’s never been talk of allowing thing to get faster. 
 

Your edit is what Sasho Mackenzie posted on social media said and that they will be back to their normal distances. This did nothing other than slow the ruling bodies to claim they are taking care of the game

[Simpsonia]

37 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bingo.  I been yelling it. I wanted them to leave the ball alone. Shrink the driver to sub 300cc or about there and  regulate it that way. If you can middle the face.  Rock and roll. If you can’t. Welcome to the trees.  I said a milllon times they’d just hand our advantage back with a ball rollback.  
 

At least we may see some more mid iron play from short tour guys.  😂. But I’m sure the tour will move tees up to protect their product.  

 

 

Did you listen to the HackItOut podcast posted a couple pages ago? Sasho McKenzie said that the the fastest guys on tour have the same rates of face stability as the slower "accurate" guys. They aren't more offline because they are swinging wildly, they are more offline merely because the ball goes further. These pros are just as accurate hitting center face with their 190cc 3W as they are with their driver. Shrinking the driver would have very little effect on the pros, and if it wasn't a bifurcated rule would have an absolutely enormous (probably the biggest) effect on non-elite amateurs. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Simpsonia

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, CDLgolf said:

 

But how do they know this if the new balls haven't been invented yet.

 

They apparently have test examples.  That is how they created their charts I think.  

[idrive]

Then why, year after year, do the manufactures tell us this is their longest ball ever...

 

I know the Prov of today absolutely flies further than the Professional did.

 

 

[clevited]

11 minutes ago, idrive said:

Then why, year after year, do the manufactures tell us this is their longest ball ever...

 

I know the Prov of today absolutely flies further than the Professional did.

 

 

 

Marketing, nothing more.  Also, you don't know that Prov does for sure since we don't have the ability to test brand new wound balls against a modern ball.  I would guess it does a little, but I don't think by nearly as much as people think once you optimize for it.

Edited December 6, 2023 by clevited

[idrive]

13 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Marketing, nothing more.  Also, you don't know that Prov does for sure since we don't have the ability to test brand new wound balls against a modern ball.  I would guess it does a little, but I don't think by nearly as much as people think once you optimize for it.

 

I played the Titleist Professional ball exclusively.  I bought 10 dz. of them when they released the Prov as I couldn't imagine the Prov was going to better than the Profess.

 

I did a shootout, comparison a short time later comparing them side by side.

 

I sold my remaining Professional balls and bought 10 dz. Prov's. For me, the Prov was absolutely, noticeably longer.

Edited December 6, 2023 by idrive

[NJgolfer11]

54 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

No one is slowing down the speed they swing the club. Swing and a miss. 

Not yet.

[clevited]

26 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

I played the Titleist Professional ball exclusively.  I bought 10 dz. of them when they released the Prov as I couldn't imagine the Prov was going to better than the Profess.

 

I did a shootout, comparison a short time later comparing them side by side.

 

I sold my remaining Professional balls and bought 10 dz. Prov's. For me, the Prov was absolutely, noticeably longer.

 

Sure I believe that, but if you didn't change your club to get the most out of the ball, then it wasn't necessarily as big of a difference as you think.  You can mitigate spin with proper club fitting but you would have likely required a launch monitor back then to dial it in without a lot of guess work and hand measuring.

[DFS PFD]

18 minutes ago, NJgolfer11 said:

Not yet.

This just demonstrates how irrationally people are viewing this. There's been a mechanical/material means of limiting performance, you're just hyper aware of it now because it's being changed, very little at that. I'd agree with most, this change is essentially a waste of time because of it's insignificance, much like the groove rule. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

Did you listen to the HackItOut podcast posted a couple pages ago? Sasho McKenzie said that the the fastest guys on tour have the same rates of face stability as the slower "accurate" guys. They aren't more offline because they are swinging wildly, they are more offline merely because the ball goes further. These pros are just as accurate hitting center face with their 190cc 3W as they are with their driver. Shrinking the driver would have very little effect on the pros, and if it wasn't a bifurcated rule would have an absolutely enormous (probably the biggest) effect on non-elite amateurs. 

I’m interested  in effecting  the amateur game . That’s what interests me. I see some awful swings in the fairway.  And loads of 70 year olds still on the middle tees.  

 

no I didn’t listen to the podcast. I’ve never heard of the guy.  I’m very much aware that fast guys hit the center.  I’m also aware that the center on a 460cc driver is much larger than one on a 300 cc driver.  And I’m aware that a 3 wood is infinitely easier to hit for a pro level guy because of shaft length being shorter and because of tee height being low.  They’re not going to hit it fat so that takes care of the vertical miss on a 3 wood.  And the  heel toe will simply have a tendency based on path or setup.  So they’ll miss in a spot.  I get it. I’ve lived it. Easy to work around.  
 

but what I also know is that you won’t see guys playing a 300 cc head with a 46 inch shaft.  You won’t see guys tee that size head up 3-4 inches. They’ll tee it with a short tee like Tiger.  And this will bring them back some from max.  And when they do miss under pressure, it will go off the planet.  We can’t claim forgiveness is real 24/7 and then claim it’s not when it’s convenient 

Edited December 6, 2023 by bladehunter

[CDLgolf]

1 hour ago, idrive said:

Then why, year after year, do the manufactures tell us this is their longest ball ever...

 

I know the Prov of today absolutely flies further than the Professional did.

 

 

 

Is the 2023 pro v1 longer than the original pro v1 ? 

 

If so by how much ?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by CDLgolf

[gvogel]

4 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I’m more curious to see how this impacts irons.  The modern ball and players irons rewards very steep angles of attack with lots of shaft lean.  

Are you sure about that?  Tiger says he doesn’t take a divot when he is playing well.  He must not be very steep.