Ghin handicap vs average score

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, mrfitz said:

Our club does any of their sanctioned competitions at 80% course handicap. I think that levels the playing field much better than 100%.

 

 

USGA says 95% - Appendix C

 

You should probably let them know your club (and you) have a much better idea.

[Dewdman42]

I read somewhere, don't remember where, I think it was somewhere on popeofslope, that actually low handicappers generally show more general sandbagging them high cappers.  The high handicappers don't really know what they are doing.  a 20 cap shooting 85 is cheating, pure and simple, but generally, a lot of tournaments are won by a few strokes and don't kid yourself, the low guys can easily beef up their index just as much as the high guys.  a 5 index who shoots under par is also sand bagging quite likely.

 

 Actually, just small errors while playing will result in higher cap inflation, the lower your average scoring actually is. Put another way, 5 mistakes on the course have more impact on a low score than a high score.  its a larger percentage of the score, thus 5 mistakes has a greater affect of raising a cap on a low handicapper then it does on a high handicapper.

 

Think about that for a minute.  

 

The "potential" is still there for the low capper to not make 5 mistakes one day and reach his potential...and due to capping he would blow away the high handicapper who is unlikely to shave of all 5 mistakes either.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

what I wish they would do is use our index only to group us into groups, and each group competes gross.  If you win more than 2 times in a group, you automatically get bumped up to the next group regardless of your handicap.  

 

Instead of having it where I have a 1/100 chance to win a handicap tournament and that is without even any sandbaggers, what I would rather do is compete in a group and see my gross  ranking each time and try to improve my ranking each time until eventually I might at lest win it, or see myself move up through the ranking, but I would know that there is no sandbagging involved whatsoever and every score a complete and honest score.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Dewdman42

[DaveLeeNC]

11 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

your stats are off.  A 0 differential should happen once or twice every 20 rounds.

 

Your differential is the slope modified difference between your score and the CR. A 0 differential should be not all that uncommon for a scratch golfer and a not even once in a lifetime event for a 20 handicapper. 

 

dave

[Dewdman42]

@DaveLeeNC you're right I was confusing differential with net over par.  

 

Getting back to what you said earlier though, if someone does shoot a 0 differential, then I would contend that their index should not be much higher than about a 5, give or take.  the odds of someone with a higher legitimate index then that of hitting 0 are extremely low odds.  yes once in a lifetime and for many people never.  someone over 10 index should not ever hit that.

 

but the thing is about sandbagging is that its going to be also unusual that a person with an inflated index (which qualifies them as a sandbagger) will also happen to shoot the best round of the year or whatever.  its far more likely they will shoot an average round or slightly better then average round.  I have no problem with anyone winning a tournament if it's their best round of the year or longer..even if they have a sandbagged index.  what sucks is when their inflated index allows them to win with a semi-mediocre round...  that is where sandbaggers slide under the radar and get away with it because nobody is looking at enough of their stats to know that is the case.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Dewdman42

[MountainKing]

23 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

20 handicap throwing up an 85 is a sandbagger, plain and simple.  Their handicap is not accurate.

 

I guess the fact that I've seen this scenario play out several times over the years, one being my old man who played to a 18 at the time, was all my imagination.   Outside of the country club life and guys who like to gamble on the course, sandbagging isn't this giant issue people want to make it out to be.   If anything most people tend to carry a vanity cap, thus skewing any handicapping data you want to throw out here, and given that most sandbaggers won't post their good rounds we don't have them in the mix to balance it out.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

 

I guess the fact that I've seen this scenario play out several times over the years, one being my old man who played to a 18 at the time, was all my imagination.   Outside of the country club life and guys who like to gamble on the course, sandbagging isn't this giant issue people want to make it out to be.   If anything most people tend to carry a vanity cap, thus skewing any handicapping data you want to throw out here, and given that most sandbaggers won't post their good rounds we don't have them in the mix to balance it out.

 

 

 

when i spent a year living in asia, sandbagging and cheating was everywhere, worse then here in usa.  

 

I feel that people there just accepted sandbagging tricks as part of the game.

 

[Guia]

There is no perfect handicap systems, too many variances.  Players always complain no matter the method used to calculate hc.  Sand baggers are close to impossible to hc; they enter scores higher than they shot, and often do not post all their scores.  I have played at course/organizations that have 2 hc, one for daily play and another for tournaments, sounded good but still had problems.  

 

I quit worrying about the method used since I had no control over it.  I post all my scores and let the chips fall where they may.

[MountainKing]

Just now, Dewdman42 said:

 

when i spent a year living in asia, sandbagging and cheating was everywhere, worse then here in usa.  

 

I feel that people there just accepted sandbagging tricks as part of the game.

 

 

Well, unless I'm missing something, neither of us are in Asia, so not really sure why that little nugget is relevant.

[Dewdman42]

oh sorry i misread your comment about "country club life", I only saw "outside country"...never mind...but yea...cheating was rampant over there, I saw every cheating and sandbagging trick in the book.  The club runners had to lower people's handicaps on a routine basis.  some people seem to win every other week.  I smelled a rat.

 

Unless handicaps are strictly tracked and monitored, handicapped tournaments will never be fair.  i stopped wasting my time on them honestly..  I had so many times that I felt I had a pretty strong day and should have fared well, but was beat by a LOT of net strokes.  It's a corrupt system and relies on people to self police...and humans are by our nature lying scoundrels....  so the system is entirely flawed.

 

but.....I do track mine for the sake of knowing where I'm at.  Nothing more.  If I were to enter a tournament I would have no expectations of winning.

 

Also...not to say that everyone is lying and cheating on purpose.  for an index to be accurate it has to represent an average of your best 8 rounds out of 20, where on those 8 rounds you were legimately trying to score well to the best of your ability for every single swing of the round.  the truth is many people do not always play to that level of scrutiny in their casual rounds.  They give up on certain holes, rush through things for pace of play, take mulligans, take lateral drops when they should have gone back, drink alcohol on the course, experimenting with different techniques, shots, taking chances they probably wouldn't take in a tourney, etc.. and many other casual and fun things, that makes it fun and relaxing to play golf...but those rounds should not be posted...and frequently are..which means the vast majority of golfers posting their scores are posting BS that is not truly indicative of their "potential".  Its indicative of how they will play while playing casually for fun..not how they will play when they are not only in a tournament but also in the running enough to take every single shot on every single hole dead serious.  I feel the majority of inflated indexes are due to this phenomenon of people posting their rounds from friendly casual games and this results in inflated indexes.  It can also resul in vanity caps depending on the personality involved.  But vanity caps hurt nobody other then the person with the cap.  The ones pumping up their index with cascual rounds are unwittingly, or perhaps semi wittingly...inflating their cap.  Sandbagging.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Dewdman42

[North Butte]

When my handicap index plateaued around 20-22 for a couple years I repeatedly shot 81 and once I shot 80.

 

But for every one of those 81's there were dozens and dozens of rounds where I barely broke 100 and I occasionally would post a legit 103 or 106 a few times a year. It's entirely possible to have the "potential" to shoot 8-10 over par while playing to a course handicap in the high teens and averaging 20+ strokes over par. 

 

There's never been a scratch golfer with even 1/3 of that kind of round to round variance. Or if there is, I've certainly never met him. 

[Augster]

The WHS is a perfect handicapping system when used honestly. I take matches with anyone, anytime, that I know uses WHS and is honest and posts correctly. Literally dozens and dozens of guys I know. I’ll take my legit cap up against their legit cap any day of the week and the player who plays better relative to their cap is going to win. 
 

There is ZERO chance that if I play well, and they play poorly, that they are still going to win because “their cap is wrong”. I’ve played HUNDREDS of matches this year, last year, the year before that etc. and nobody with a legit cap thought they lost or won because the system is broken. None. Zero. 
 

Lastly, to say a 20 cap that shoots 85 is a sandbagger is completely wrong. Higher caps are going to have WAY more variance than lower caps. 

[st1800e]

2 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

Anyone shooting net 61 is sandbagging

Nice generalization…….. Jealous maybe?  

[goaliedad30]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The WHS is a perfect handicapping system when used honestly. I take matches with anyone, anytime, that I know uses WHS and is honest and posts correctly. Literally dozens and dozens of guys I know. I’ll take my legit cap up against their legit cap any day of the week and the player who plays better relative to their cap is going to win. 

 

During 2020, when there wasn't much else to do, my wife and I played golf essentially every day. She was a rapidly improving 20-something handicapper, and I was playing to around 2 or 3 at that point. We played a singles match every day, because she wanted to learn and understand match play, and the rules that go with it.

 

I didn't track it religiously, but the matches split pretty well 50-50, and usually went to the 16th, 17th, or 18th hole -- the system worked as designed.

 

And then there was that day when she was playing her best round ever (shot 89 as a 25 handicapper, and it was 100% legit). I was 3 under on the 13th tee and she had closed me out 7 & 6! Some days you're the windshield ... 🙂

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

oh sorry i misread your comment about "country club life", I only saw "outside country"...never mind...but yea...cheating was rampant over there, I saw every cheating and sandbagging trick in the book.  The club runners had to lower people's handicaps on a routine basis.  some people seem to win every other week.  I smelled a rat.

 

Unless handicaps are strictly tracked and monitored, handicapped tournaments will never be fair.  i stopped wasting my time on them honestly..  I had so many times that I felt I had a pretty strong day and should have fared well, but was beat by a LOT of net strokes.  It's a corrupt system and relies on people to self police...and humans are by our nature lying scoundrels....  so the system is entirely flawed.

 

but.....I do track mine for the sake of knowing where I'm at.  Nothing more.  If I were to enter a tournament I would have no expectations of winning.

 

Also...not to say that everyone is lying and cheating on purpose.  for an index to be accurate it has to represent an average of your best 8 rounds out of 20, where on those 8 rounds you were legimately trying to score well to the best of your ability for every single swing of the round.  the truth is many people do not always play to that level of scrutiny in their casual rounds.  They give up on certain holes, rush through things for pace of play, take mulligans, take lateral drops when they should have gone back, drink alcohol on the course, experimenting with different techniques, shots, taking chances they probably wouldn't take in a tourney, etc.. and many other casual and fun things, that makes it fun and relaxing to play golf...but those rounds should not be posted...and frequently are..which means the vast majority of golfers posting their scores are posting BS that is not truly indicative of their "potential".  Its indicative of how they will play while playing casually for fun..not how they will play when they are not only in a tournament but also in the running enough to take every single shot on every single hole dead serious.  I feel the majority of inflated indexes are due to this phenomenon of people posting their rounds from friendly casual games and this results in inflated indexes.  It can also resul in vanity caps depending on the personality involved.  But vanity caps hurt nobody other then the person with the cap.  The ones pumping up their index with cascual rounds are unwittingly, or perhaps semi wittingly...inflating their cap.  Sandbagging.

 

 

 

Dewd,

 

Do you lean to the left or the right when you walk ?  You know, under the weight of that gigantic chip on your shoulder.

 

"Wahhhhhh. Everybody's cheating but me, so how can I win ?" A familiar refrain.

 

But tell me. If you played with the same 20 guys round after round, wouldn't you place 1st at least ONCE out of 20 rounds ? Most likely you would - but that would mean you "lost" 19 of 20.

 

"Wahhhhhhh. How come all these cheaters keep beating me ?"

 

You've been all over the map with this carp. I don't think I have enough cyber-ink to answer everything you posted about.

 

As for Asia, been there and done that. Over roughly 24 months and 250 rounds or so, over the last 10 years in SE Asia, I've seen exactly 2 people chastised/banned. TWO. And one seemed "accidental".

 

So 20 cappers are baggers because they occasionally shoot a net 61 ? Well, as you already know the "net" is irrelevant - it's the number of strokes of the differential under one's index.

 

But low single digits are sandbagging too ?  So you're in the middle at 11. You DON'T sandbag ? You're the only honest player you know ? 🙃

 

For me personally, I likely haven't played more than 5 rounds in the last 20 YEARS with no $$$ on the line. Not a LOT of cash mind you, but enough so that I wasn't going to throw any of it away. And I'm here to tell you, I've never thrown away strokes with a chance to win.

 

"Ah Haaaa !!!" you say, "With a chance to win". So what did I do when I was closed out on 14 (or alternately had no chance of winning a net game) ? Doesn't matter because if I WAS closed out on 15, or figured I was "out of it" (net), that round ain't going into my best 8 of 20 anyway.

 

"Ah Haaaa !!!" you say. So what happens when *I* close out the other guy (or alternately have a reasonable chance of winning (net game)) ? I try HARDER because I have a great round going and I'm TRYING to win a net game.

 

Net-net, I am not giving up ANY strokes to raise my 'cap.

 

I'm also thinking there are a LOT of players here on WRX who do the same things. Rarely take back the club with no ca$h on the line - or at least in some important (to them) competition.

 

And I can count on one hand the number of times I suspected anybody I've known (99% of the rounds I've played for $), was sandbagging - for the EXACT same reasons as *I* don't.

 

And pretty much everybody I've played with over that same period of time is the same as myself - they ALWAYS have some $$$ on the line.

 

So, unless somebody is bagging for some SERIOUS future BIG cash game (& yes, those guys are around), "nobody" is sandbagging anywhere near the extent you seem to think.

 

You want to play a gross game within a flight ? Good luck with that if you're the highest capper IN that flight. You'll be getting your head handed to you on a regular basis - you know, just like it appears you do now.

 

BTW, those stats on Pope of Slope ? There are estimates that on average 1,000,000 rounds are played per day. That means that somewhere here in the States, EVERY DAY, it's likely those really high odds differentials are being shot,,,,,,, multiple times.

 

BTW#2 - Learn the difference, will ya ?

 

[Dewdman42]

2 hours ago, st1800e said:

Nice generalization…….. Jealous maybe?  

jealous of a cheater?   No of course not 

[Dewdman42]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Dewd,

 

Do you lean to the left or the right when you walk ?  You know, under the weight of that gigantic chip on your shoulder.

 

"Wahhhhhh. Everybody's cheating but me, so how can I win ?" A familiar refrain.

 

But tell me. If you played with the same 20 guys round after round, wouldn't you place 1st at least ONCE out of 20 rounds ? Most likely you would - but that would mean you "lost" 19 of 20.

 

"Wahhhhhhh. How come all these cheaters keep beating me ?"

 

You've been all over the map with this carp. I don't think I have enough cyber-ink to answer everything you posted about.

 

As for Asia, been there and done that. Over roughly 24 months and 250 rounds or so, over the last 10 years in SE Asia, I've seen exactly 2 people chastised/banned. TWO. And one seemed "accidental".

 

So 20 cappers are baggers because they occasionally shoot a net 61 ? Well, as you already know the "net" is irrelevant - it's the number of strokes of the differential under one's index.

 

But low single digits are sandbagging too ?  So you're in the middle at 11. You DON'T sandbag ? You're the only honest player you know ? 🙃

 

For me personally, I likely haven't played more than 5 rounds in the last 20 YEARS with no $$$ on the line. Not a LOT of cash mind you, but enough so that I wasn't going to throw any of it away. And I'm here to tell you, I've never thrown away strokes with a chance to win.

 

"Ah Haaaa !!!" you say, "With a chance to win". So what did I do when I was closed out on 14 (or alternately had no chance of winning a net game) ? Doesn't matter because if I WAS closed out on 15, or figured I was "out of it" (net), that round ain't going into my best 8 of 20 anyway.

 

"Ah Haaaa !!!" you say. So what happens when *I* close out the other guy (or alternately have a reasonable chance of winning (net game)) ? I try HARDER because I have a great round going and I'm TRYING to win a net game.

 

Net-net, I am not giving up ANY strokes to raise my 'cap.

 

I'm also thinking there are a LOT of players here on WRX who do the same things. Rarely take back the club with no ca$h on the line - or at least in some important (to them) competition.

 

And I can count on one hand the number of times I suspected anybody I've known (99% of the rounds I've played for $), was sandbagging - for the EXACT same reasons as *I* don't.

 

And pretty much everybody I've played with over that same period of time is the same as myself - they ALWAYS have some $$$ on the line.

 

So, unless somebody is bagging for some SERIOUS future BIG cash game (& yes, those guys are around), "nobody" is sandbagging anywhere near the extent you seem to think.

 

You want to play a gross game within a flight ? Good luck with that if you're the highest capper IN that flight. You'll be getting your head handed to you on a regular basis - you know, just like it appears you do now.

 

BTW, those stats on Pope of Slope ? There are estimates that on average 1,000,000 rounds are played per day. That means that somewhere here in the States, EVERY DAY, it's likely those really high odds differentials are being shot,,,,,,, multiple times.

 

BTW#2 - Learn the difference, will ya ?

 

a lot of personal insults usually means you don’t know what you are talking about, and it shows.  Either that or you are yourself a sandbagger and I am hitting close to home.  
 

The stats are what they are, don’t shoot the messenger.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Dewdman42

[cardoustie]

I did watch a legit 27 shoot 41-47 last week.  84, half blind and deaf.  He missed a 2footer on 8 as well.  Front 9 was his best 9 in 20 years .. with 2 birdies, one on the hardest hole on the course

[Schulzmc]

14 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

Anyone shooting net 61 is sandbagging.

 

14 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

-5 and lower is probably sandbagging.

 

13 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

20 handicap throwing up an 85 is a sandbagger, plain and simple.  Their handicap is not accurate.

 

I disagree. I play at a private club where I know most golfers well. I know of at least 3 guys there that are legitimate 20+ and can throw up an 85. They can also throw up a 100. I see it happen all the time.

 

Myself - I play 2-4 rounds a week, post every score, and am usually playing some sort of money game so am always trying my best. My index is 8.3 right now, which is a 9 from our blue tees. Every year I will have two or three rounds that are 75 (-6) or below. Last January on a golf trip I shot 70 (net 62 on that course). One of my 75s last year came in the first round of the club championship (I shot 87 the next day). No one I know would accuse me of being a sandbagger.

[jvincent]

13 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

Getting back to what you said earlier though, if someone does shoot a 0 differential, then I would contend that their index should not be much higher than about a 5, give or take.  the odds of someone with a higher legitimate index then that of hitting 0 are extremely low odds.  yes once in a lifetime and for many people never.  someone over 10 index should not ever hit that.

 

 

The problem with your statement above is that it ignores trends.

 

I was at a 7.2, but trending down,  when I shot an even par 0.0 differential. Say hello exceptional score index reduction! 

[larrybud]

17 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

your stats are off.  A 0 differential should happen once or twice every 20 rounds.  Remember your index is average of best 8 out of 20 rounds.  That means a couple of those 8 good rounds, will be below your index.   every once in a while we will shoot a round that is at our index, and a stroke or two below it.  couple of times per 20 rounds, which is roughly 10% of the time.

For a 0 index, a 0 differential or better should happen 4 out of 20 rounds, assuming normal distribution.

[MountainKing]

13 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

oh sorry i misread your comment about "country club life", I only saw "outside country"...never mind...but yea...cheating was rampant over there, I saw every cheating and sandbagging trick in the book.  The club runners had to lower people's handicaps on a routine basis.  some people seem to win every other week.  I smelled a rat.

 

Unless handicaps are strictly tracked and monitored, handicapped tournaments will never be fair.  i stopped wasting my time on them honestly..  I had so many times that I felt I had a pretty strong day and should have fared well, but was beat by a LOT of net strokes.  It's a corrupt system and relies on people to self police...and humans are by our nature lying scoundrels....  so the system is entirely flawed.

 

but.....I do track mine for the sake of knowing where I'm at.  Nothing more.  If I were to enter a tournament I would have no expectations of winning.

 

Also...not to say that everyone is lying and cheating on purpose.  for an index to be accurate it has to represent an average of your best 8 rounds out of 20, where on those 8 rounds you were legimately trying to score well to the best of your ability for every single swing of the round.  the truth is many people do not always play to that level of scrutiny in their casual rounds.  They give up on certain holes, rush through things for pace of play, take mulligans, take lateral drops when they should have gone back, drink alcohol on the course, experimenting with different techniques, shots, taking chances they probably wouldn't take in a tourney, etc.. and many other casual and fun things, that makes it fun and relaxing to play golf...but those rounds should not be posted...and frequently are..which means the vast majority of golfers posting their scores are posting BS that is not truly indicative of their "potential".  Its indicative of how they will play while playing casually for fun..not how they will play when they are not only in a tournament but also in the running enough to take every single shot on every single hole dead serious.  I feel the majority of inflated indexes are due to this phenomenon of people posting their rounds from friendly casual games and this results in inflated indexes.  It can also resul in vanity caps depending on the personality involved.  But vanity caps hurt nobody other then the person with the cap.  The ones pumping up their index with cascual rounds are unwittingly, or perhaps semi wittingly...inflating their cap.  Sandbagging.

 

 

 

You're so focused on sandbagging, I would bet that accounts for less than 1% of actual handicaps, vanity caps are way more of a thing probably 10 to 15% would fit int hat category if I had to guess based on what I've seen over the years.   It seems like if somebody does something slightly out of the norm you want to jump on them being a sandbagger. 

[MountainKing]

12 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

a lot of personal insults usually means you don’t know what you are talking about, and it shows.  Either that or you are yourself a sandbagger and I am hitting close to home.  
 

The stats are what they are, don’t shoot the messenger.

 

I would normally side with you on this one, except every scenario brought to this thread you counter with "sandbagging".  The site you reference has a sandbagging stat on there after looking and it's what I thought, 1%, yet you're coming on here acting like every scenario is sandbagging.

[davep043]

This thread reminds me of many of the "rules am stupid" threads.  It started reasonably enough when someone wonders why handicaps are based on some percentage of a player's better scores, instead of using the average of all of the scores.  Then one nimrod comes in an derails the entire discussion by saying, in essence, "Who the f--- cares how its calculated, only sandbaggers win anything anyway."  I'll take a pass on the sandbagging discussions.

[Dewdman42]

5 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

I would normally side with you on this one, except every scenario brought to this thread you counter with "sandbagging".  The site you reference has a sandbagging stat on there after looking and it's what I thought, 1%, yet you're coming on here acting like every scenario is sandbagging.

sorry if my comments have offended some of you, it was not intended.  I don’t really care though whether anyone agrees with me.  I made no claim whatsoever what percentage of people are sandbagging.  It only takes one or two by the way, to ruin tournament play as far as I’m concerned.  What I have simply said is a 61 net is sandbagging.  That is my opinion.   I don’t really care if you or anyone else sees it differently.  

I also have observed it happening in nearly every tournament i have ever played in, to the point that I don’t bother with them any more because I think they are a joke.  But hey if it works for you then have at it!

[Dewdman42]

5 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

You're so focused on sandbagging, I would bet that accounts for less than 1% of actual handicaps, vanity caps are way more of a thing probably 10 to 15% would fit int hat category if I had to guess based on what I've seen over the years.   It seems like if somebody does something slightly out of the norm you want to jump on them being a sandbagger. 

vanity caps don’t hurt anyone else.  They may or may not be rampant or common I don’t know but they don’t affect me so who cares?  Inflated caps in the other hand ruin tournament play.  What inhave read here are several stories of people who think they are unicorns that defy the known odds.  And i don’t buy that.  If we followed those people around and tracked every shot we would find out why their cap is inflated.  But since we can’t do that we have to just take their word for it, and have these silly debates on the net speculating about what people may or may not be doing to wittingly or unwittingly inflate their caps in some way such that it obviously does not represent their true potential any more.

 

i will contend that the people being defensive about this probably have inflated caps.  But hey I don’t follow them around to know.  But at the tournaments i have participated in over the years they often show up.  And yes I think handicapped tournaments are basically a waste of time, it’s like the every kid gets a trophy mindset.  Except some kids cheat a little bit to improve  their odds of getting a trophy more often.  It’s a joke really.

[Dewdman42]

9 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

The problem with your statement above is that it ignores trends.

 

I was at a 7.2, but trending down,  when I shot an even par 0.0 differential. Say hello exceptional score index reduction! 

no I agree this actually true.  A golfer who is improving and trending down has an unfair advantage in handicapped tournament play.  They are the only statistically viable chance of seeing large -6 net types of scores without some other form of sand bagging most likely at play.  There is always the remote low odds probability of a once in a lifetime round for someone so we can never know  for sure.
 

this brings up an interesting point though which is about the “spirit” of handicapped competition.  If a player trending down knows they are playing better then their current index would indicate, are they not sandbagging?  I realize they may be following the rules to the letter but still they are gaming the handicap system which is designed to flatten the playing field.  Giving themselves an unfair advantage due to a hole in the system as they happen to be trending down. 
 

thus they are gaming with their index manipulation as much as any sandbagger except that none can say they are breaking any rule in so doing.  How convenient.

 

It seems to me that many people simply do not believe or agree with that stats put forth years ago by pope of slope.  I have to believe those stats before I can believe in unicorns though as unicorns are extremely unlikely.  Not impossible of course, even some people do win the lottery with extremely bad odds so there you go.  But I think there are too many people claiming to be unicorns, and imho their indexes are inflated and do not represent a fair indication of their potential for handicap play.  However they got there, they have an unfair advantage and are basically sandbagging the system.  

Edited August 30, 2023 by Dewdman42

[nsxguy]

19 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

a lot of personal insults usually means you don’t know what you are talking about, and it shows.  Either that or you are yourself a sandbagger and I am hitting close to home.  
 

The stats are what they are, don’t shoot the messenger.

 

Right, *I* don't know what I'm talking about; except you don't see ME whining about others sandbagging.

 

As I suspected; ya got nothin'. Especially no STATS

 

[nsxguy]

48 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

no I agree this actually true.  A golfer who is improving and trending down has an unfair advantage in handicapped tournament play.  They are the only statistically viable chance of seeing large -6 net types of scores without some other form of sand bagging most likely at play.  There is always the remote low odds probability of a once in a lifetime round for someone so we can never know  for sure.
 

this brings up an interesting point though which is about the “spirit” of handicapped competition.  If a player trending down knows they are playing better then their current index would indicate, are they not sandbagging?  I realize they may be following the rules to the letter but still they are gaming the handicap system which is designed to flatten the playing field.  Giving themselves an unfair advantage due to a hole in the system as they happen to be trending down. 
 

thus they are gaming with their index manipulation as much as any sandbagger except that none can say they are breaking any rule in so doing.  How convenient.

 

It seems to me that many people simply do not believe or agree with that stats put forth years ago by pope of slope.  I have to believe those stats before I can believe in unicorns though as unicorns are extremely unlikely.  Not impossible of course, even some people do win the lottery with extremely bad odds so there you go.  But I think there are too many people claiming to be unicorns, and imho their indexes are inflated and do not represent a fair indication of their potential for handicap play.  However they got there, they have an unfair advantage and are basically sandbagging the system.  

 

Your arguments are borderline ridiculous.

And yes, I do have a penchant for understatement.

 

Toodles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by nsxguy

[North Butte]

The system is designed to respond far quicker to a golfer whose handicap is "trending down" than to one "trending up". If you were to suddenly get six strokes better overnight, you'd better cash in on your first 2-3 rounds because your handicap will catch up very quickly. But if you wake up one morning suddenly six strokes worse than before you'll be losing money for ten rounds or more until the handicap catches up.