Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[Binson]

Do we also have trackman numbers on Shortgamechef's "shallow" technique? Or is it just a shallow feeling?

[MPStrat]

21 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

For the record, I'd pay to see a short game teach off. Even better, I'd love to be involved.

I don’t want to derail the thread, but I’d love to see teach-offs in many forms. That will probably never happen, unfortunately.

[MPStrat]

18 minutes ago, Binson said:

Do we also have trackman numbers on Shortgamechef's "shallow" technique? Or is it just a shallow feeling?

 

It’s not just a shallow feeling, there is a big difference.  
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxOymRLPYjg/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

 

 

[Mcdgolfsalot]

Just wanted to send a thank you to the great teachers chiming in on this thread. There are a lot of ways to move the club both long game and short game. Kudos to all for continuing to learn and explore other ways to do it! 

[Deadaimz]

I joined Joe's patron and what he is teaching is so different than what I have been hearing. I can't wait to try this out since like he has stated you don't need to fear being steep, which I have been. Maybe this method will be the method that cures my chipping and pitching woes. Let's go shaft lean.

[Zitlow]

There's nothing new under the sun. The old timers probably didn't know what spin loft was in theory but they used it when they chipped. 

 

[MPStrat]

49 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

There's nothing new under the sun.

Touché 

 

I have to give Mayo his due on something, though. I mistakenly labeled shaft lean as suboptimal on a standard pitch around the greens. But because I now better understand the role of spin loft, I know that it’s shaft lean combined with a shallow angle of attack that causes the ball to come off the face really hot. Obviously I knew how spin loft worked, but I wasn’t aware that you could get spin loft high enough using shaft lean.
 

People will decide for themselves which one of several techniques they like best around the greens they play on most frequently. I hope Mayos ideas aren’t interpreted as the only way to be a good pitcher of the ball. Or that this way is always better than another way.
 

Mayo’s way is simply the only way to hit the low spinner. He also believes there are benefits for the average golfer as it relates to a repeatably functional low point. I think that’s mostly what will be debated at length over time. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by MPStrat
Spelling

[Zitlow]

@MPStrat I've learned a bunch from the short game stuff posted in the forum. The 3 Releases by Daniel Grieve was an eye opener for me. Would never have heard of him without the site. 

[getitdaily]

Do people really need chipping instruction vs just going to a practice green and trying all sorts of things? 

 

I ask this seriously...

 

I'll add...I think folks should understand and know how to do both. Now, maybe this is myopic from a scratch/+ level player, but if I understand both concepts then they're both equally important depending on the turf.

 

I'm steep and bouncy as my default. I definitely use the bounce and just like to feel a downward hit while pulling the handle left and maintaining shaft lean. That's just how I naturally learned to chip. Idk how, maybe watching folks, maybe trial and error, probably both. I've been in Florida all my life so this technique works best given the usually mushy conditions. I also never paid attention to bounce until about 6 years ago so I always played higher bounce wedges because it was usually what was off the rack.

 

But when I go play high quality, tight bermuda courses, steep and bouncy means fatted chips. I know on tight, into the grain bermuda you have to stay shallow. More rock the shoulders and limited hand action...clip the ball with a level angle of attack.

 

So both techniques are important. Seems the turf one plays on dictates which would be preferred...?

Edited September 18, 2023 by getitdaily

[MK7Golf21]

17 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

@MPStrat I've learned a bunch from the short game stuff posted in the forum. The 3 Releases by Daniel Grieve was an eye opener for me. Would never have heard of him without the site. 

 

I read a tip from Monte on the forum that helped my bunker shots a bunch. I normally looked before the ball a bit to enter the sand and not skull a shot over the green. It worked most of the time but I missed them fat this way and was different than my normal swing so never felt right. 

 

Read his advise to open the face and hit them like a normal shot. Made sense to me. Opening the face reduced chances of sculling it over the green and exposed the bounce. Could get as close to ball with swing as I wanted without issue and started being able to nip them out of the bunker with a good amount of spin. 

[rnolan79]

I subscribed to Joe's Patreon and it really has been an eye-opener for my short game. I have always struggled to hit low wedges into greens and be consistent. What I have found so far is that this method is allowing me to control trajectory in a way that I have never been able to do with my wedges. I don't have as many issues with inconsistent contact and has taken away any fear when it comes to being aggressive around the greens. It has also been pretty cool to see some video's with higher handicappers showing that they can achieve the same numbers as VH to validate what he is teaching. 

[Golf_Goof]

19 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Do people really need chipping instruction vs just going to a practice green and trying all sorts of things? 

 

I ask this seriously...

 

If Hovland can benefit from it; I'm sure we all could. 

[MPStrat]

9 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Do people really need chipping instruction vs just going to a practice green and trying all sorts of things? 

 

I ask this seriously...

There is no substitute for that and it’s fun. 
 

The maintenance free chipping and pitching methods are sold online but to be really good practice is required.
 

I’ve spent as much or more time practicing around the chipping green as I have hitting balls. I figured out the “let the club fall from gravity” thing years ago on my own.

 

But I’ve mentioned before there are harmful biases that can exist from reading golf forums. I would have never in a million years thought you could spin a 12 yard pitch at 6000 rpms while using shaft lean. Just something cool to know. 

[pusb365]

21 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Do people really need chipping instruction vs just going to a practice green and trying all sorts of things? 

 

I ask this seriously...

 

Viktor Hovland would say yes, and he's pretty good. So of course the average golfer would benefit from instruction!

[MPStrat]

20 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

I read a tip from Monte on the forum that helped my bunker shots a bunch. I normally looked before the ball a bit to enter the sand and not skull a shot over the green. It worked most of the time but I missed them fat this way and was different than my normal swing so never felt right. 

 

Read his advise to open the face and hit them like a normal shot. Made sense to me. Opening the face reduced chances of sculling it over the green and exposed the bounce. Could get as close to ball with swing as I wanted without issue and started being able to nip them out of the bunker with a good amount of spin. 

This is a good technique as long as the bunker has nice fluffy sand 😂 

[airjammer]

48 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

 

If Hovland can benefit from it; I'm sure we all could. 

Seems like it will bridge the gap between long game technique and short game technique which as to help with consistency you would think. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Would the concept of a 'mini' parametric acceleration be in play here? Hand path versus clubhead : in order to be able to exibit a downward AoA, some shaft lean and not dig to China without using the bounce to do so... long minimalish turf interaction; which would create the spin loft and rpm desired  

[MPStrat]

12 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Would the concept of a 'mini' parametric acceleration be in play here? Hand path versus clubhead : in order to be able to exibit a downward AoA, some shaft lean and not dig to China without using the bounce to do so... long minimalish turf interaction; which would create the spin loft and rpm desired  

This is covered on his Patreon. The answer is no. He goes into detail on the subject. 

[Avid_but_mediocre]

For those far more knowledgeable about this than I am, is there any comparison to Dan Grieves and his different "releases"?

 

The shot Joe is talking about reminds me of Dan's Release 1 and SGC's shallow approach to Grieves' Release 2.

 

I could easily be over simplifying this or way off base entirely, but I just read Grieves' book so it's where my head is at right now. 

 

Thank you!

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

This is a good technique as long as the bunker has nice fluffy sand 😂 

 

yea, tbh I don't study much short game stuff at all. If sand is wet and packed tight or little to no sand I take a more square face and almost pitch it out. No idea if that is the right technique but seems to work.

[Deadaimz]

5 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Do people really need chipping instruction vs just going to a practice green and trying all sorts of things? 

 

I ask this seriously...

 

I'll add...I think folks should understand and know how to do both. Now, maybe this is myopic from a scratch/+ level player, but if I understand both concepts then they're both equally important depending on the turf.

 

I'm steep and bouncy as my default. I definitely use the bounce and just like to feel a downward hit while pulling the handle left and maintaining shaft lean. That's just how I naturally learned to chip. Idk how, maybe watching folks, maybe trial and error, probably both. I've been in Florida all my life so this technique works best given the usually mushy conditions. I also never paid attention to bounce until about 6 years ago so I always played higher bounce wedges because it was usually what was off the rack.

 

But when I go play high quality, tight bermuda courses, steep and bouncy means fatted chips. I know on tight, into the grain bermuda you have to stay shallow. More rock the shoulders and limited hand action...clip the ball with a level angle of attack.

 

So both techniques are important. Seems the turf one plays on dictates which would be preferred...?

From a mid capper who sucks at pitching and chipping yes. The knowledge Joe is sharing in his patreon is powerful and eye opening for me. I went and tried and and never felt crisper 60° pitching from various yardages. I'm hopeful this will finally help me break 80. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Deadaimz
Misspell

[umamimami]

If you guys want an extreeme example of this AoA stuff take your club nearest 45 degrees and drop/push it down into back of ball. You can’t do this on soft ground. The initial launch  result is an extremely low spinner that then of course freaks out once it gets a yard or so away from you.

 

There’s also the Thai Spinner shot that relies on a similar concept that’s more reliable. 

[DaveGoodrich]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:49 PM, MPStrat said:

There is still some shaft lean it’s just not a ton

 

He likes 10* down with wedges around the green, not much more and not much less

 

It’s possible to do this with very little turf disturbance.

 

It seems that the 10* here is discussing shaft lean, not AOA.  They aren't the same thing, and maybe that is the source of some confusion.  If we "extend as the handle goes up," as @MonteScheinblum says, is the AOA at impact actually steep?  Or are we talking about being steep coming into the ball, but then shallowing at impact (hinge your wrists, but then "scoop up a coin just before the ball").   

10* is 1.66 minutes on a clock face.  So that isn't a lot of shaft lean, really.  To most folks, that is going to seem like a "near vertical shaft at impact."  Yes, the low point should ideally be after the ball, but it doesn't follow that we would want the club head to actually be descending much through impact, which explains why its possible to be "10* down" without disturbing the turf much.   

 

When I hit the low spinner, I'm trying to lean the shaft some, to control launch angle, but still come through the ball with as shallow an AOA as I can muster, given the lie, because that keeps the low point where it needs to be through a longer portion of the bottom of the arc.   The effective bounce on your wedge will control whether a shallow AOA swing with some shaft lean "uses the bounce" or not.  

 

I have been focusing on keeping more weight forward, which is a definite help wrt controlling the low point at impact.  Nevertheless, I don't think the point of doing that is to increase AOA at impact.   It is to keep from swaying off the ball and losing subtle control of where the low point of the swing occurs.  

 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, DaveGoodrich said:

 

It seems that the 10* here is discussing shaft lean, not AOA. 

 

 

No, 10-14ish* down is the proper angle of attack for this shot. It's difficult to hit down enough for the low spinner with only 10* of shaft lean. 

 

6 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

When I hit the low spinner, I'm trying to lean the shaft some, to control launch angle, but still come through the ball with as shallow an AOA as I can muster, given the lie, because that keeps the low point where it needs to be through a longer portion of the bottom of the arc.   

 

 

If you actually accomplished this, your spin loft would be too low to hit the low spinner. 

[GolfTurkey]

5 hours ago, getitdaily said:

But when I go play high quality, tight bermuda courses, steep and bouncy means fatted chips. I know on tight, into the grain bermuda you have to stay shallow. More rock the shoulders and limited hand action...clip the ball with a level angle of attack.

 

So both techniques are important. Seems the turf one plays on dictates which would be preferred...?

 

Mayo is advocating almost the opposite of that. His theory is that the tougher the lie, the more important it is to get low point forward. Doesn't matter if the club sticks once the ball is gone. 

 

[getitdaily]

29 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Mayo is advocating almost the opposite of that. His theory is that the tougher the lie, the more important it is to get low point forward. Doesn't matter if the club sticks once the ball is gone. 

 

Yeah, that doesn't work for me. Could be bounce related but I have to be shallow on tight, into grain bermuda.

 

Just about any other grass I've played on is the opposite. But into grain bermuda is devil's grass so you gotta be shallow like him

[MonteScheinblum]

17 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Yeah, that doesn't work for me. Could be bounce related but I have to be shallow on tight, into grain bermuda.

 

Just about any other grass I've played on is the opposite. But into grain bermuda is devil's grass so you gotta be shallow like him

The concept of into the grain Bermuda around greens was invented by wives who don’t golf to make their husbands quit golf.

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The concept of into the grain Bermuda around greens was invented by wives who don’t golf to make their husbands quit golf.

This is true. And then those wive's mothers said "let's keep that into grain area nice and watered down too".

[GolfTurkey]

Whoever decided that the long bunker shot was the most difficult shot in golf never had to play a lofted pitch off a tight into the grain wet Bermuda lie.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Whoever decided that the long bunker shot was the most difficult shot in golf never had to play a lofted pitch off a tight into the grain wet Bermuda lie.

Word.  All you have to do on a long bunker shot is hit it like a short bunker shot with more club.