standing behind player while putting

[szaino]

Help me understand this issue.

 

Rule 10 and rule 22 prevent caddies and partners from standing on the line of play behind a player, but I can't see where the rules prevent a competitor from doing this ?

 

My partner can't stand behind me to get a read on a putt, but a competitor also on the same line is allowed to do so? I feel that I must be missing something, I just can't find it in the rules.

 

 

[davep043]

50 minutes ago, szaino said:

Help me understand this issue.

 

Rule 10 and rule 22 prevent caddies and partners from standing on the line of play behind a player, but I can't see where the rules prevent a competitor from doing this ?

 

My partner can't stand behind me to get a read on a putt, but a competitor also on the same line is allowed to do so? I feel that I must be missing something, I just can't find it in the rules.

 

 

You're not missing anything, there's no prohibition on another player or your Opponent standing in that "restricted area".  The only thing that could address this is in 1.2a, which says:

 

"All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

.....

Showing consideration to others – for example, ......not distracting the play of another player"

 

But there's no specific requirement for this, or penalty for not doing it, unless it gets to the level of Serious Misconduct.  Unless the guy is doing it for every shot, even after being asked to stand somewhere else, this would never be Serious Misconduct, and even if it WAS every hole it wouldn't merit the DQ.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

Is there a prohibition on competitors doing this specifically in PGA Tour events? Because I always see them standing well off the line even when it would benefit them, and then only briskly walking to where they might view the line and read the putt after it has been struck. 

 

My normal group it's customary to stand behind on the line if you're closer on a similar line to get a read. I do it frequently, with the caveat (per Dave's point about distractions) that you want to stand far enough back from the player so that you're not in their eye line and distracting them. 

 

Of course, we're such bad golfers that half the time I'll stand there and my fellow competitor will leave it 10' short or blast it 10' past, so I have no idea what the line is at an appropriate speed 😉 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Is there a prohibition on competitors doing this specifically in PGA Tour events?

Nothing in the Rules of Golf, other than simple consideration for the other players.  

[szaino]

Thanks for confirming and explaining this.

 

It makes no sense to have this rule apply to, and penalize some players and not all players. If they are going to have this rule it should be universal to all players.   

[Halebopp]

35 minutes ago, szaino said:

Thanks for confirming and explaining this.

 

It makes no sense to have this rule apply to, and penalize some players and not all players. If they are going to have this rule it should be universal to all players.   

The rule exists to stop the player making the stroke from getting certain help. Not to stop others from learning something from that stroke.

 

Naturally asking for advice from other players, or giving it to them, is forbidden and covered in Rule 10.2.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Halebopp

[david.c.w]

Why did I think that a competitor could NOT stand behind a putt and watch the break, especially if their ball is on the same or similar line?  I have thought that forever and is a hill I would die on.  

 

It is only a penalty for your partner?

 

 

[jacob7071]

38 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Why did I think that a competitor could NOT stand behind a putt and watch the break, especially if their ball is on the same or similar line?  I have thought that forever and is a hill I would die on.  

 

It is only a penalty for your partner?

 

 

Correct, only a penalty for your partner or caddie.  Because the partner or caddie is allowed to give you advice after the fact - like you pushed or pulled it, or lined it up incorrectly, or just misread the shot.  Your fellow competitor is already forbidden from giving that advice, so it doesn't matter if they see it.  But like davep said, if it's distracting to you, you can ask them to move.  If they don't, then they're in breach of 1.2.  

 

The reason you probably thought a competitor can NOT stand behind you is you were (likely) taught that it's considered poor etiquette.  Like so blatant poor etiquette that it's gotta be against the rules, right?

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

Because the partner or caddie is allowed to give you advice after the fact - like you pushed or pulled it, or lined it up incorrectly, or just misread the shot. 

Actually, it has nothing at all to do with providing advice or feedback after the stroke.  A Caddie or Partner is not allowed to stand in the Restricted Area in order to help the Player to align himself.  If that happens, the penalty is applied to the Player, not to the Partner. Additionally, a Partner is not allowed to stand in the Restricted Area in order to learn something to help his own (the Partner's) next shot, in which case the Penalty is applied to the Partner, not the Player.  

[Newby]

18 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Actually, it has nothing at all to do with providing advice or feedback after the stroke.  A Caddie or Partner is not allowed to stand in the Restricted Area in order to help the Player to align himself.  If that happens, the penalty is applied to the Player, not to the Partner. Additionally, a Partner is not allowed to stand in the Restricted Area in order to learn something to help his own (the Partner's) next shot, in which case the Penalty is applied to the Partner, not the Player.  

Dave

A reference to the relevant rule numbers would be useful

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Newby said:

Dave

A reference to the relevant rule numbers would be useful

You're absolutely correct.  The stuff about aligning a Player is in 10.2b(4) (for a Caddie), and 22.2 and 23.5 extend the limitations on a Player's Caddie to a Partner in Foursome and Fourball play. The stuff about gaining an advantage for the Partner's next stroke is in 22.6 for Foursomes, and 23.8 for Fourball play.  

[jobin]

A 'greenside' myth perpetuated by the old skool.

[davep043]

14 hours ago, jobin said:

A 'greenside' myth perpetuated by the old skool.

Which "myth" are you talking about?

[jholz]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Which "myth" are you talking about?

 

I think he's referring to our old friend "Greenside Ghoul"...

[davep043]

3 hours ago, jholz said:

 

I think he's referring to our old friend "Greenside Ghoul"...

Sometimes brevity is a key to clarity, too many words can muddle the message.  In @jobin's post, I'd say brevity is the enemy of clarity.

[iacas]

The old Rules (pre-2019) used to say (emphasis added):

 

Quote

On the Putting Green
On the putting green, players should not stand on another player’s line of putt or when he is making a stroke, cast a shadow over his line of putt.

 

This was in the etiquette section at the start of the Rules, which is why you see people standing to the side and stepping in quickly.

 

I always preferred just standing on the line… but really far away so as not to be anywhere near the field of view. I think that's more courteous than hovering close and jumping in as soon as the putter makes contact with the ball. 😄 

[Augster]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:45 AM, jacob7071 said:

Correct, only a penalty for your partner or caddie.  Because the partner or caddie is allowed to give you advice after the fact - like you pushed or pulled it, or lined it up incorrectly, or just misread the shot.  Your fellow competitor is already forbidden from giving that advice, so it doesn't matter if they see it.  But like davep said, if it's distracting to you, you can ask them to move.  If they don't, then they're in breach of 1.2.  

 

The reason you probably thought a competitor can NOT stand behind you is you were (likely) taught that it's considered poor etiquette.  Like so blatant poor etiquette that it's gotta be against the rules, right?

Absolutely. 
 

While I do agree the Rule was put in place to stop alignment, and hopefully speed up play, why then is it still restricted if the partner/caddie does not help line them up?

 

It’s as Jacob has said, a partner/caddie would be able to tell the player, after the fact, you were lined up a little right/left etc. 

 

By not allowing the partner/caddie to stand there at any time, it limits the information a player has for future putts. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:23 AM, szaino said:

Help me understand this issue.

 

Rule 10 and rule 22 prevent caddies and partners from standing on the line of play behind a player, but I can't see where the rules prevent a competitor from doing this ?

 

My partner can't stand behind me to get a read on a putt, but a competitor also on the same line is allowed to do so? I feel that I must be missing something, I just can't find it in the rules.

 

 

You're overlooking another aspect that influences behavior, it's called etiquette.  The reason why most people don't stand on the line behind someone putting, but jump to see the line after the putt is made.  

 

I played many years of match play and regional events, don't recall anyone standing behind me while I putted.  But recall plenty of people moving quickly to see the line after I putt.

[rogolf]

45 minutes ago, Augster said:

By not allowing the partner/caddie to stand there at any time, it limits the information a player has for future putts. 

Sometimes the player is forced to do things by himself.  It also prevents the partner from gaining information on his own putt if it happens to be on the same line.