Should the wrists hinge vertically or should trail wrist go into extension on backswing?

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a quick and dirty video that I made the other day explaining it.  

 

 

Oy.

 

[getitdaily]

48 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a quick and dirty video that I made the other day explaining it.  

 

 

But what does your video have to do with wrist set in the backswing?

 

Whatever that video is, it's about impact. OP is asking about wrist movement in the backswing. 

[Righty to Lefty]

7 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

But what does your video have to do with wrist set in the backswing?

 

Whatever that video is, it's about impact. OP is asking about wrist movement in the backswing. 

The intentions at impact are what set the wrist angles at address.  You should not be focusing from address to impact, you should be working from impact to address as your body should be preparing for what is coming.  

 

 

[getitdaily]

20 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The intentions at impact are what set the wrist angles at address.  You should not be focusing from address to impact, you should be working from impact to address as your body should be preparing for what is coming.  

 

 

What does that even mean? 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

What does that even mean? 

C’mon man! It means the OP was about wrist movement in the backswing and R2L wants to discuss address and impact.

Why he can’t start his own thread about address and impact I have no idea.

 

Do try to keep up.🤬

Edited December 30, 2023 by Shilgy

[PracticeSwinger]

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon man! It means the OP was about wrist movement in the backswing and R2L wants to discuss address and impact.

Why he can’t start his own thread about address and impact I have no idea.

 

Do try to keep up.🤬

At least we didn’t get the Jackie Burke and Mike Austin disciples commenting in this one like in every other thread where they try and sniff at teachers ideas along the way… or did we? Right.

[CB67]

The Milo Lines camp’s take on the question 

Edited December 30, 2023 by CB67

[MonteScheinblum]

Someone needs to use a hack motion or something.

[iacas]

@CB67, wow. Hadn't seen that before.

[Tanner25]

This may help....

 

 

[Simpsonia]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

@CB67, wow. Hadn't seen that before.

 

Now, I'm curious about your take on this feel of theirs. 

[rondo01]

Just now, Simpsonia said:

 

Now, I'm curious about your take on this feel of theirs. 

same. This is a key move in Milo’s system. 

[nitram]

"Inquiring Minds Want To Know"

[JayMas]

8 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Someone needs to use a hack motion or something.

For some reason I suspect that would still not help. There is no getting out of this hole.

[JayMas]

9 hours ago, CB67 said:

 

IMG_6328.mov 48.07 MB · 11 downloads

The Milo Lines camp’s take on the question 

Not an instructor, but this seems weird to me. Would make sense for someone with too much radial as a focus/feel, but to say radial deviation is one of the biggest fallacies in golf seems like a real hot take? The wrists do radially deviate even if it isn't a lot, I can't believe that would be in question or someone would say they do not do that.

 

I'll just assume it's a "many should feel this extreme" because they often do too much of the opposite, especially because Milo and his team/guests seem to be good instructors.

[Zitlow]

9 hours ago, CB67 said:

 

IMG_6328.mov 48.07 MB · 15 downloads

The Milo Lines camp’s take on the question 

 

This is too simple for the micro managers. 

[Liveonce]

10 hours ago, CB67 said:

 

The Milo Lines camp’s take on the question 

thank you. This was my exact question. 

[kowalgolf]

8 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

thank you. This was my exact question. 

Did he fire 5 or six shots? In all this excitement I really don't know and I gots to know.

[Zitlow]

16 hours ago, shortpockets said:

 

Not s33n or heard this before I don't believe.  Can you describe this a little more, the purpose-effect, or what your understanding about this is? 

 

There are lots of different ways to get the job done, there are many contrasting styles on tour from Rahm to Rickie Fowler. People should find out what works for them and go with that. 

 

For me taking the slack out of the system works because I'm swinging against the weight of the resisting club. What the casters do is put slack in the system by unloading the shaft before it's ever loaded. 

 

 

Here's a technical GEARS guy who can explain the dynamics of loading and unloading the shaft better than I can. 

 

 

 

 

[Zitlow]

15 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a quick and dirty video that I made the other day explaining it.  

 

 

 

Also putting the whole club on the ball with force like Koepka vs the early release guy on left who doesn't get much leverage on the ball. 

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

Here's a technical GEARS guy who can explain the dynamics of loading and unloading the shaft better than I can. 

 

 

 

 

Great video - on the hands speed and where this is happening part, this is thus basically confirming that you want to acceleterate really early from the top and not leave them up there and just pivot through with lots of early right side bend, right?

[PracticeSwinger]

2 hours ago, JayMas said:

Not an instructor, but this seems weird to me. Would make sense for someone with too much radial as a focus/feel, but to say radial deviation is one of the biggest fallacies in golf seems like a real hot take? The wrists do radially deviate even if it isn't a lot, I can't believe that would be in question or someone would say they do not do that.

 

I'll just assume it's a "many should feel this extreme" because they often do too much of the opposite, especially because Milo and his team/guests seem to be good instructors.

Guessing the comment was made in the heat of the moment to try and be assertive or else… tough call to be that direct on the biggest fallacy in golf and have it in your own swing (which is a good thing if my reading understanding is correct) 

[Soloman1]

13 hours ago, CB67 said:

 

The Milo Lines camp’s take on the question 

 

That’s right up there with the Foley video explaining that the hiss sound of the ball after impact is air coming out of the seams.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Guessing the comment was made in the heat of the moment to try and be assertive or else… tough call to be that direct on the biggest fallacy in golf and have it in your own swing (which is a good thing if my reading understanding is correct) 

This is false dichotomy #8396 in golf.

 

#1 is the golf swing arm drive or pivot driven?

#2 Is improving at golf fixing mechanics or improving mental game?

 

The stupidity of these debates confound me as the answer is there is always a proper balance between the two.

 

You tell a guy who over vertical hinges and extends the lead wrist at the top to get more right wrist bend.  You tell the guy who has nearly a 180* angle between his lead arm and the shaft and whips the club head inside and ends in arm over run he needs more radial (vertical hinge).

 

These BS one extreme or the other narratives drive me crazy.  
 

Use a hack motion for 3 swings and look at a graph of a neutral swinging elite player and you’ll have the answer to this whole thread.

Edited December 30, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[getitdaily]

17 minutes ago, shortpockets said:

 

Sounds like it could closely align with words from Bradley Hughes about working from impact back. 

 

The backswing is earned once you know the true feel of impact...read that again. 

 

Impact is begat by downswing.

Downswing is begat by the transition. 

The transition is begat by the motion from p3 to p4.

P3 is begat by the motion from p1 to p2.

P1 to p2 is where wrist set begins.

 

Get wrist set right from.p1 to p3 and things get easier. 

 

Get the backswing right and the downswing becomes easier. Get the downswing right and impact is simply a reaction. 

[GoGoErky]

29 minutes ago, shortpockets said:

 

Sounds like it could closely align with words from Bradley Hughes about working from impact back. 

 

The backswing is earned once you know the true feel of impact...read that again. 

 

But Bradley also has 6 other drills that address the rest of the swing and doesn’t rely on just drill 1 of hitting from 430. 
 

His drill 4 deals with the backswing.

 

He talks about the individuality of the backswing between golfers but also states that the backswing is an important tool to build a better swing

[glk]

42 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is false dichotomy #8396 in golf.

 

#1 is the golf swing arm drive or pivot driven?

#2 Is improving at golf fixing mechanics or improving mental game?

 

The stupidity of these debates confound me as the answer is there is always a proper balance between the two.

 

You tell a guy who over vertical hinges and extends the lead wrist at the top to get more right wrist bend.  You tell the guy who has nearly a 180* angle between his lead arm and the shaft and whips the club head inside and ends in arm over run he needs more radial (vertical hinge).

 

These BS one extreme or the other narratives drive me crazy.  
 

Use a hack motion for 3 swings and look at a graph of a neutral swinging elite player and you’ll have the answer to this whole thread.

Here are some graphs from Tyler's talk on arm movements of elite golfers.  
waite and elkington    Certainly differences in their overall motion but patterns of wrist/forearms similar.  Better to look at patterns than numbers since calibration can affect the numbers   Tyler uses the amm system.

Lead

trail

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by glk

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

He's not an instructor. He does (basically) one very focused thing. He doesn't know how to teach someone to putt, how to hit a low spinner, or how to hit a lot of shots.

 

I've known people who have gone to him and, while they might swing their drivers 8 MPH faster… they can't keep the ball on the planet (one 3-index player/friend specifically was asked to leave a range or switch clubs from driver because he couldn't keep a ball ON the range - kept hitting it over the right-hand side net, even aiming into the back left corner after a Dr. Kwon visit.)

 

I've visited with him, and respect the heck out of his knowledge. But he's not an "instructor." He's a biomechanist who works in a relatively narrow part of golf.

 

 

That's not what you said. Receipts:

 

 

The shaft is almost always in lead deflection at impact (and drooping).

 

 

It's a tough scene when you're trying to "disagree" with matters of fact. Most shafts are in lead deflection at impact, like so (might be the first swing I looked at, and might be a former OWGR #1 player in the world here):

 

 

I "disagree" that 2 + 2 = 4.

 

 

Some people don't need to test the things you've said to know they lack merit.

 

P.S. O…IDIA.

 

"The shaft may be drooping at impact but is definitely not flexed toward the target at impact as that is the rolling shutter effect and not what is actually happening to the shaft through impact as it will be very close to being in line with the rest of the shaft."

 

 

I was speaking in regards to the rolling shutter effect making the shaft look like it is in crazy lead deflection but in the very next part that you failed to put in bold and mention I stated that the shaft will be mostly inline which your pretty lil graphic obviously depicts, and the still frame of Rory's shaft also shows, but you just want to be an a** instead being and instructor that you claim to be. Instead of maybe saying " hey man I understand what you are saying and see what you are saying that the shaft is mostly in line at impact, which it is, technically a portion of the shaft is in lead deflection." 

 

I have been going back and forth with you for the better part of a decade now and you should know by now that I am going to keep testing and coming back with what I find because I have a perspective that neither you or very few can relate to and that is playing the game right and left handed to a low single digit handicap.   I am a passionate golfer that has a unique perspective on things that is against the grain and I'm cool with that but for a golf instructor like yourself to be in these threads being rude as you are is stunning to me because you should be in here being a mentor to the forum because many hang on the words that you put down.  I assure you that we agree on much more than we disagree on. I thought you blocked me...what happened?!! 

[glk]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

"The shaft may be drooping at impact but is definitely not flexed toward the target at impact as that is the rolling shutter effect and not what is actually happening to the shaft through impact as it will be very close to being in line with the rest of the shaft."

 

 

I was speaking in regards to the rolling shutter effect making the shaft look like it is in crazy lead deflection but in the very next part that you failed to put in bold and mention I stated that the shaft will be mostly inline which your pretty lil graphic obviously depicts, and the still frame of Rory's shaft also shows, but you just want to be an a** instead being and instructor that you claim to be. Instead of maybe saying " hey man I understand what you are saying and see what you are saying that the shaft is mostly in line at impact, which it is, technically a portion of the shaft is in lead deflection." 

 

I have been going back and forth with you for the better part of a decade now and you should know by now that I am going to keep testing and coming back with what I find because I have a perspective that neither you or very few can relate to and that is playing the game right and left handed to a low single digit handicap.   I am a passionate golfer that has a unique perspective on things that is against the grain and I'm cool with that but for a golf instructor like yourself to be in these threads being rude as you are is stunning to me because you should be in here being a mentor to the forum because many hang on the words that you put down.  I assure you that we agree on much more than we disagree on. I thought you blocked me...what happened?!! 

Measured data says there is lead deflection in swings but as usual you are right and the shaft doesn't bend toward the target at impact - not.   Especially for elite swings.  See Tutelman data with writeup by wishon included.  Now for hacks that early release the shaft might be inline but wishon has said he has never seen a shaft being away from the target.  Come on, be open minded like you preach to others.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/ShaftLab3.php

Edited December 31, 2023 by glk

[GolfTurkey]

4 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Guessing the comment was made in the heat of the moment to try and be assertive or else… tough call to be that direct on the biggest fallacy in golf and have it in your own swing (which is a good thing if my reading understanding is correct) 

 

He must have missed the ball on that swing.