You hit the ball where you look. Eyeline

[betarhoalphadelta]

32 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

So, for us dumb bass, which numbers are out to in & which are in to out? 

 

I believe nearly all launch monitors work the same. Assuming a golfer who plays right-handed, an in->out path will be positive. An out->in path will be negative. 

 

It's cleaner to say a left->right path will be positive, and a right->left path will be negative, as that applies equally to both left-handed and right-handed golfers. (And to me, who is left-handed but plays right-handed.)

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I believe nearly all launch monitors work the same. Assuming a golfer who plays right-handed, an in->out path will be positive. An out->in path will be negative.

 

Yeah, both GEARS and the Foresight software report "out to in" and stuff like that. Drives me (mildly) nuts. So much wordier than a - or a + sign.

[Valtiel]

On 1/14/2024 at 3:40 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

If you told a non golfer who knew nothing, it would make perfect sense to them.  Of course you’re going to swing right (or way left) if your head is tilted and your eyes are looking over there.  I know this because I’ve asked dozens of non golfers that exact question.

 

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Swing 8 I told him I could get him to make a left path without him swinging differently.  He laughed.  I held his head and tilted his eyeline left.

 

Swing 9 he tried on his own.

 

Swing 10 I held his head again and said, “I’ll give you a 1-3 in to out on this one.”

Great, now i'm off to the range to start shifting my eyeline all over the place to see what it does to the ball. 

[chollier986]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah, both GEARS and the Foresight software report "out to in" and stuff like that. Drives me (mildly) nuts. So much wordier than a - or a + sign.

There’s an option for “numerical” report out for foresight to show +/- rather that “in to out/ out to in”

[Nickb333]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I believe nearly all launch monitors work the same. Assuming a golfer who plays right-handed, an in->out path will be positive. An out->in path will be negative. 

 

It's cleaner to say a left->right path will be positive, and a right->left path will be negative, as that applies equally to both left-handed and right-handed golfers. (And to me, who is left-handed but plays right-handed.)

Thank you. And sorry I somehow quoted the wrong post. 
 

I was asking about Monty holding that kids head. If I understand what you wrote, the kid was coming way inside to out. Monty held his head and produced an outside to in swing. 
 

if that’s correct, why would that be an improvement? Or am I missing the point? Again…

[KD1]

14 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Or am I missing the point?

 

I think the point was how Monte was able to use just the eye line to change the students swing path.

[MonteScheinblum]

47 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

I think the point was how Monte was able to use just the eye line to change the students swing path.

Correct.  I called out both swing paths…..and there’s nothing wrong with a slight outside in swing path.  Tons of good players do that.  In this scenario, -3 is way better than +6-11

Edited January 16 by MonteScheinblum

[MonteScheinblum]

PS-I have donated my time to charity hitting drives and “tips” from the pro.

 

On many any occasion someone will say, “I don’t want put in the effort to change my swing, but is there a quick fix for an OTT slice.”

 

Easy peasy.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, chollier986 said:

There’s an option for “numerical” report out for foresight to show +/- rather that “in to out/ out to in”

 

Oh, okay, great. Thank you. I don't use the software too often, mostly just look on the unit itself… and that doesn't have a setting to change it on the LCD display, IIRC.

 

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

On many any occasion someone will say, “I don’t want put in the effort to change my swing, but is there a quick fix for an OTT slice.”

 

Easy peasy.

 

My brother-in-law hits draws/hooks from an open stance and fades/slices from a closed one, partly because his eye line changes and partly because he "senses" the target being "out to the right" when he's open and "over there to the left" when he's closed, and swings in that direction.

 

I play better golf from a slightly open stance, too. But I can close it to hit a bigger hook, too, when I need to. I don't suddenly start hitting slices like my BIL. 😄 

 

Edited January 16 by iacas
Added quote/reply

[Nickb333]

42 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Correct.  I called out both swing paths…..and there’s nothing wrong with a slight outside in swing path.  Tons of good players do that.  In this scenario, -3 is way better than +6-11

Excellent. Thanks once again. And my apologies for misspelling your name Monte. 
 

I’m not very bright, but I’m a slow learner. 

[JayMas]

This Chris Ryan video was in my YouTube feed this morning. I've always thought his stuff was well done. Instructors, what are some thoughts on this (knowing it's more eye focus than eye line or head tilt, though I have to imagine this can affect that too)?

 

 

 

[rchang72]

When my head feels centered, my left eye is lower than my right. Might that contribute to generally out to in path? And should i touch my right ear to shoulder to fix this?

[MonteScheinblum]

25 minutes ago, rchang72 said:

When my head feels centered, my left eye is lower than my right. Might that contribute to generally out to in path? And should i touch my right ear to shoulder to fix this?

Likely part of the problem, but don’t over do it.

[absoludicrous]

On 1/15/2024 at 2:57 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

A fun moment just now that shows how much this works.  Look at swings 1-7. Inconsistent low point and 2 way miss.

 

Swing 8 I told him I could get him to make a left path without him swinging differently.  He laughed.  I held his head and tilted his eyeline left.

 

Swing 9 he tried on his own.

 

Swing 10 I held his head again and said, “I’ll give you a 1-3 in to out on this one.”

 

Its fun when the trackman makes you look smarter than you are

 

Reading @betarhoalphadelta’s post, it seems like his issue is slightly different since he’s adding the turn right as he moves away from the ball. But just like @betarhoalphadelta, this guy is also left eye dominant and can get wildly inconsistent at times. 

 

The issue was that the head was moving right on the backswing as the arms and hands got higher. It was like the left shoulder was taking the chin and head along for the ride back and forcing it to turn right at the top. Monte was showing this guy that he could control the path left or right by keeping his head from turning so much on the backswing.

 

Unlike @betarhoalphadelta, the fix wasn’t so easy for this student and it’s something that he’ll need to work on in order to correct the eyeline over time.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Was just working and had Golf Channel on in the background and they were commenting on Rory at the range at the Genesis. 

 

The announcers said eyeline has a huge effect on path. 

 

@MonteScheinblum Did the announcers come down to you for a lesson this week? 😂

[MonteScheinblum]

15 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Was just working and had Golf Channel on in the background and they were commenting on Rory at the range at the Genesis. 

 

The announcers said eyeline has a huge effect on path. 

 

@MonteScheinblum Did the announcers come down to you for a lesson this week? 😂

They steal my stuff all the time. 🤪

[bortass]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

They steal my stuff all the time. 🤪

They wouldn't spout as much dumb stuff if they did it more often, lol.

[dodgyman]

A comment and a question.

 

@MonteScheinblum thank you!!! I've been working with my coach on my swing for 3+ years now, with that effort it's improved tremendously in many aspects, but one thing that I've never been able to shake in all those years is swing direction that no matter what always creeps back to the 7-10 range. Anything plausible I would try, and just tillting my head and changing my eye-line instantly moved my swing direction from the 7 range to around 2. I even saw a -0.5.

 

TBH I was a bit angry at first. All those years of instruction, why did we never discuss this. My coach is great, he's always noticed when I "cheated" to fix my swing direction, and the instruction has always been valuable, but if this was one of the big causes and it's so un-obtrusive why didn't he notice?

So I recorded two swings, one as usual, and one with my head/eyeline in a way that feels more out to in. Talk about feel isn't real, I could not see any difference between the two side by side. On video my head change is so minute that honestly I had to double check if I was really looking at before/after. Obv. I'm not a professional so I shouldn't be always be able to tell the difference, but this feels so small that I can't really blame anyone for not noticing.

So I guess my question is... how? What do you see to even know that this may be a cause? Is it just experience on affect of swing path, something specific you look for? I'm honestly kind of amazed that something so subtle does work so well.
 

I'm a little bit afraid to lose this feeling, and hope I can ingrain it and be rid of these bad numbers forever, but so far so good. So thank you, this is just the kind of thing I need right now.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, dodgyman said:

A comment and a question.

 

@MonteScheinblum thank you!!! I've been working with my coach on my swing for 3+ years now, with that effort it's improved tremendously in many aspects, but one thing that I've never been able to shake in all those years is swing direction that no matter what always creeps back to the 7-10 range. Anything plausible I would try, and just tillting my head and changing my eye-line instantly moved my swing direction from the 7 range to around 2. I even saw a -0.5.

 

TBH I was a bit angry at first. All those years of instruction, why did we never discuss this. My coach is great, he's always noticed when I "cheated" to fix my swing direction, and the instruction has always been valuable, but if this was one of the big causes and it's so un-obtrusive why didn't he notice?

So I recorded two swings, one as usual, and one with my head/eyeline in a way that feels more out to in. Talk about feel isn't real, I could not see any difference between the two side by side. On video my head change is so minute that honestly I had to double check if I was really looking at before/after. Obv. I'm not a professional so I shouldn't be always be able to tell the difference, but this feels so small that I can't really blame anyone for not noticing.

So I guess my question is... how? What do you see to even know that this may be a cause? Is it just experience on affect of swing path, something specific you look for? I'm honestly kind of amazed that something so subtle does work so well.
 

I'm a little bit afraid to lose this feeling, and hope I can ingrain it and be rid of these bad numbers forever, but so far so good. So thank you, this is just the kind of thing I need right now.

When you spend almost 4000 hours a year playing golf, studying the swing and GIVING LESSONS, for 40 years, you learn things and have insight that the casual golfer and swing nerd don’t.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, dodgyman said:

A comment and a question.

 

@MonteScheinblum thank you!!! I've been working with my coach on my swing for 3+ years now, with that effort it's improved tremendously in many aspects, but one thing that I've never been able to shake in all those years is swing direction that no matter what always creeps back to the 7-10 range. Anything plausible I would try, and just tillting my head and changing my eye-line instantly moved my swing direction from the 7 range to around 2. I even saw a -0.5.

 

TBH I was a bit angry at first. All those years of instruction, why did we never discuss this. My coach is great, he's always noticed when I "cheated" to fix my swing direction, and the instruction has always been valuable, but if this was one of the big causes and it's so un-obtrusive why didn't he notice?

So I recorded two swings, one as usual, and one with my head/eyeline in a way that feels more out to in. Talk about feel isn't real, I could not see any difference between the two side by side. On video my head change is so minute that honestly I had to double check if I was really looking at before/after. Obv. I'm not a professional so I shouldn't be always be able to tell the difference, but this feels so small that I can't really blame anyone for not noticing.

So I guess my question is... how? What do you see to even know that this may be a cause? Is it just experience on affect of swing path, something specific you look for? I'm honestly kind of amazed that something so subtle does work so well.
 

I'm a little bit afraid to lose this feeling, and hope I can ingrain it and be rid of these bad numbers forever, but so far so good. So thank you, this is just the kind of thing I need right now.

 

Glad this worked for you!

 

I'll PM you my payment details to offset the cost of my lesson since you're getting to freeload off it 😉

 

[Nels55]

20 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When you spend almost 4000 hours a year playing golf, studying the swing and GIVING LESSONS, for 40 years, you learn things and have insight that the casual golfer and swing nerd don’t.  

I was golfing in a tournament with my friend Tom a few years ago and we were randomly paired with a couple of fellows who were not very good.  Tom was not having a good day that day and on the 14th tee one of the two guys who was shooting well over 100 with a really ugly hack of a swing gave him some advice I think it was to slow his backswing down or something.  The guy then said; "I may not swing very well but I know the golf swing!".  

I thought that was kind of funny...

[MonteScheinblum]

21 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I was golfing in a tournament with my friend Tom a few years ago and we were randomly paired with a couple of fellows who were not very good.  Tom was not having a good day that day and on the 14th tee one of the two guys who was shooting well over 100 with a really ugly hack of a swing gave him some advice I think it was to slow his backswing down or something.  The guy then said; "I may not swing very well but I know the golf swing!".  

I thought that was kind of funny...

LOL, so true.  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

 The guy then said; "I may not swing very well but I know the golf swing!".  

 

 

Should be an auto-assignable signature here. 😀

[Obee]

Love love love LOVE this, Monte. And eyeline has other applications beyond just swing mechanics and improving strike consistency.

When helping guys break through the 2 to 3 cap range down into the legit plusses and take their games into (amateur) tournament level, one of the first things I do is watch them hit some 130 - 150 yard shots and ask them what they are trying to do with the ball and where they are trying to START the ball. This directly connects to the "eye line" thing.

It's crazy how often otherwise decent players will assess a shot and set themselves up to fail. Example:

• 148 yard shot to a tucked left pin, back third of the green
• Green quite firm
• Deep bunker immediately left
• 10mph (slightly) helping wind from the right
• Player's normal shot with a 9i is a 145-yard shot with draw of about 5 yards

I will ask, "Okay, what are we doing here? Walk me through you thought process..."
 

Player: "Well, I'm going to hit a nice draw in there. Aim about 5 yards right and draw it in there right to the hole."

They have already completely screwed themselves from the get go.

A better though process is:

• I want this ball to finish even with or under the hole, so...
  • "I'm going to take one full less club (PW instead of 9i) because the R to L wind is going to help my draw a bit and the greens are firm, and balls are taking a significant hop first before checking. Might even be a GW today."
• "I'm going to aim 10 to 12 yards right. That's right on the right edge of the green or just outside.

The crazy thing is that even if some players are instructed on this being the correct approach (it is) and they agree with it, they still can't get themselves to do it. I've watched it time and again and this goes back to eyeline/aim line. I say,

"Okay, let's do that then. Show me."
 

They step into the shot and they aren't even close to aimed the necessary 10 to 12 yards right of the pin. usually 5 or 6 yards at most. When you don't aim far enough right for a shot like this -- and you are a natural drawer of the ball -- you have three outcomes:

1. You know/feel that you aren't aimed far enough right, so you drop the club under and you "stall-flip" it left
2. You know/feel that you aren't aimed far enough right, so you drop the club under and you shove it straight right
3. You time your "under" move compensation and happen to block draw it to the right edge of the green and move it nicely toward and under the hole.

Sadly, in this scenario, numbers 1 and 2 happen far too frequently.

And it all goes back to eye-line/starting line. Lots of other factors, of course, but lots of bad shots and bad golf swings start there, for sure.

 

[Nickb333]

I finally had a chance to work on eye line again. I have a new driver so I was monkeying with stuff but…

 

the proper eye line absolutely promotes a better takeaway for me.

 

47 years of golf and never once heard anyone mention this mini miracle. Wow. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@MonteScheinblum One of the most unexpected things I've noticed after this fix, through a few range sessions and now even seeing it on the course over two rounds, is that it seems to have greatly reduced my toe-side miss. That was probably my most consistent miss before, and I'm hitting the center MUCH more reliably. 

 

Just wondering, as so many things in a golf swing are interrelated, whether there is a correlation due to either eyeline or in->out path with toe-side misses? In short, would it be EXPECTED that a fix like this would also reduce toe-side misses?

 

[JayMas]

Still curious as to whether those that implemented changes here are literally changing where they are looking or just the tilt of their eye line?

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

@MonteScheinblum One of the most unexpected things I've noticed after this fix, through a few range sessions and now even seeing it on the course over two rounds, is that it seems to have greatly reduced my toe-side miss. That was probably my most consistent miss before, and I'm hitting the center MUCH more reliably. 

 

Just wondering, as so many things in a golf swing are interrelated, whether there is a correlation due to either eyeline or in->out path with toe-side misses? In short, would it be EXPECTED that a fix like this would also reduce toe-side misses?

 

Yes

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, JayMas said:

Still curious as to whether those that implemented changes here are literally changing where they are looking or just the tilt of their eye line?

 

For me it's pure tilt. At setup I focus to tilt just SLIGHTLY more neutral than I did before, but I just focus on not tilting my head AWAY in the takeaway. I don't change the focus of where I'm looking.

 

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

Thanks Monte. Appreciate it. First two rounds with this change my GIR% is trending higher. 

[iacas]

I had to remind my juniors this past weekend to actually LOOK at the golf ball sometimes. When they're working, their mind's eye is elsewhere - on what the shaft is doing, their wrist, something… so sometimes they'll mishit a few too many balls (even though they're working on movement changes, you still don't want to grossly mishit ten balls in a row). I reminded them to actually LOOK at the ball… and they all hit it better again.

 

So, sometimes it's not just your eye alignment, but what you're "seeing."

 

(I mean, duh, but… 😄)