You hit the ball where you look. Eyeline

[iNeedMoreGolf]

4 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

So in a post about “you hit where you look,” you’re not a big fan of talking about where you are look, but rather use where you feel your ears are to determine where you look?

We are just missing a thanks icon on this post.. id really like to see it happend. Might be a first time ever all icons on a post so someone do it.

[iceman1118]

Curious if this is an eye dominance thing? The OP did mention he is left eye dominant who plays righty.

 

I happen to be a right hand, right eye dominant golfer. I feel like this is something that isn’t talked about enough. For me, I need an intermediate point for every shot I hit from driver to putter. And it feels like I am aimed way left, but I’m not. If I use my eyes to step into the shot and look at the target, I end up aiming 40 yards right of the target. 
 

And if I sway my head off the ball at all, my nose gets in the way and I lose sight of the ball.
 

If I am way off, please ignore  

[GolfTurkey]

Good work both of you, and if you play to a 22 from that after position I'll eat my iPad.

[rondo01]

An oldie but a goodie on this 

 

 

[JayMas]

Very nice. I've got the opposite tilt problem (left ear to left shoulder too much), but the concept resonates.

[dblinden]

@monteschienblum posted this topic on Insta a number of weeks ago. I asked a question and you indicated you didn't know what I meant. I'd like to try again. I have limited range of motion in my neck, especially when turning my head to the left. So, on my backswing, it's very hard to get my chin over my left shoulder (head tilts to the right). Also, I happen to be strongly L eye dominant. What can I do to mitigate this issue (frustrated by this for years)?

[CSagan]

3 minutes ago, dblinden said:

@monteschienblum posted this topic on Insta a number of weeks ago. I asked a question and you indicated you didn't know what I meant. I'd like to try again. I have limited range of motion in my neck, especially when turning my head to the left. So, on my backswing, it's very hard to get my chin over my left shoulder (head tilts to the right). Also, I happen to be strongly L eye dominant. What can I do to mitigate this issue (frustrated by this for years)?

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Do you think the eyeline thing is causing a subtle shift of the shoulder line? My tendency is to have open shoulders at address and when I am setting up to play a fade, I wonder if that would be causing an exaggeration of the shoulder line?

[Cliffy2020]

I’ve actually used this technique myself for shot shaping 🤣

[fred faldo]

15 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s some irony.  This is a very common problem.  There’s a reverse cause effect issue here too.  Many people will sense the target is “behind them” and come over the top badly.  When they fix their eyeline, the path of the hands and club get less over the top.

 

The irony is my social media posts on this subject get some of the lowest engagement of any of my posts.

thanks for this, can I please ask a question of you? when I get going bad it becomes a smother pull hook or flat out pull that I always assumed was from a huge over the top move. Could my eyeline also have a bearing on that as well? thanks in advance

[Golfbeat]

2 hours ago, CSagan said:

 

 

 

You can try a relaxed shoulder and left arm with a bit of bend in it. Too many people want to keep it straight as a rod and way too tense.

Edited January 12 by Golfbeat

[bortass]

First time I have ever heard of this which isn't surprising. What makes an instructor pick up on the eyeline being off/changing during the swing is causing a problem? 

[ferrispgm]

Just goes to show how something relatively simple can have such a huge impact in the swing.  The position at P4 is dramatically improved as well. Curious, did pressure shift improve as well or were you not measuring at the time? 

[Avid_but_mediocre]

17 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s some irony.  This is a very common problem.  There’s a reverse cause effect issue here too.  Many people will sense the target is “behind them” and come over the top badly.  When they fix their eyeline, the path of the hands and club get less over the top.

 

The irony is my social media posts on this subject get some of the lowest engagement of any of my posts.

 

You probably already know this, but Gareth Raflewski was talking about this with respect to putting and the new glasses he came out with (have a narrow slit to see through to limit where you can look at setup). He posted a story of someone using them for full swing practice. 

 

Always appreciate you bring these topics to light in a digestible way for us hacks!

[KD1]

If it's a mismatched dominate eye issue a trick the old guys use in sporting clays is to smudge some petroleum jelly or something on the lense of your shooting glasses over the dominate eye to train the other eye.

Edited January 12 by KD1
clarification

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

Just goes to show how something relatively simple can have such a huge impact in the swing.  The position at P4 is dramatically improved as well. Curious, did pressure shift improve as well or were you not measuring at the time? 

There were no pressure plates in use. I do have a sway problem off the ball and then a late shift back into the lead side. Monte said that this change might have a positive effect there as there's usually a relationship. Reminds my of my earlier years in martial arts: "where the head goes, the body will follow." So working on this might have a benefit, which I'll be checkpointing regularly on video as I work through this. But he also gave me some points on better hip movement and how to get there if I don't see meaningful improvement in the sway already. 

 

But he made a comment about a 25 cap, and I told him I'm a 22 which he didn't realize, and he just about fell over in disbelief based on what he saw in the full swing. I told him about my short game woes (my most recent round was a 92 with no penalty strokes, but I think I lost at least 8-9 strokes due to short game. I'm abysmal. So we got into the short game stuff (which I had intended to ask him about anyway) and he immediately saw why I'm a 22 and fixing that was a bigger priority than the sway lol. So we worked mostly on that for most of the remainder of the hour (to great effect).  And we spent a short amount on putting, which I'm sure unsurprisingly to Monte, I had some of the same faults putting that were ruining my chipping/pitching stroke. 

 

[Tanner25]

@betarhoalphadelta Great work! That is a nice improvement! Just to be clear, it sounds like your fault was to tilt your head towards your right shoulder in the backswing. Tilting the other way, looks like your head ends up more vertical as you said. We're you also looking (eye line) straight ahead of the ball (not towards the target) lifting your chin at set-up?

Edited January 12 by Tanner25

[betarhoalphadelta]

20 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

@betarhoalphadelta Great work! That is a nice improvement! Just to be clear, it sounds like your fault was to tilt your head towards your right shoulder in the backswing. Tilting the other way, looks like your head ends up more vertical as you said. We're you also looking (eye line) straight ahead of the ball (not towards the target) lifting your chin at set-up?

 

To give an idea of the fault, below are some of my swings from a few months ago. Especially in the face-on view, you can see that although I set up with my head fairly neutral, the first move off the ball I immediately tilt my head right:

 

 

With the change, I didn't really make any difference to my setup--maybe my head was naturally tilted SLIGHTLY less right than before because I was thinking about head position, but it wasn't necessarily something I consciously changed. Nor did I do anything to lift my chin or otherwise change head position. 

 

All I did was to consciously make sure that I was looking down at the ball and not letting my head fall off to the right during the swing.

 

 

[Nickb333]

Without really understanding what’s going on here, I’ll bump this thread up anyway. 
 

I hit the sim today and focused mostly on eye alignment. Something I’ve never even considered before. 
 

The results were pretty amazing. After my normal square setup, I adjusted my eye line to be parallel.(never in 40+ years have I noticed or adjusted my eye line) Then I did a slight head turn rear down the line. ( based on the left eye dominant suggestions above)

 

With those two small changes, I didn’t hit a single bad hook and only a couple crappy slices. Overall everything started much straighter than any practice session I remember. 
 

The kicker is this. My takeaway felt natural. At no time did I feel the need to fix it. I was able to load up and swing away without the feeling I would yank it left or drive it into the ground. 
 

Crazy. Hope it works next time. 
 

Thanks Monte. 
 

 

Edited January 13 by Nickb333

[MonteScheinblum]

14 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

Just goes to show how something relatively simple can have such a huge impact in the swing.  The position at P4 is dramatically improved as well. Curious, did pressure shift improve as well or were you not measuring at the time? 

Didn’t measure it, but pelvis position improved.

[DShepley]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:33 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

And unknown to Monte, I'm left handed but play golf right handed, and absolutely left eye dominant. 

Oh dear...'Lefty to Righty'.....deep breath.....

[vernon]

I've never been able to get anybody to believe this - anytime I've brought it up people look at me like I've got two heads.....

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, vernon said:

I've never been able to get anybody to believe this - anytime I've brought it up people look at me like I've got two heads.....

Therein lies the issue with golf instruction and tips.

 

If you told a non golfer who knew nothing, it would make perfect sense to them.  Of course you’re going to swing right (or way left) if your head is tilted and your eyes are looking over there.  I know this because I’ve asked dozens of non golfers that exact question.

 

People don’t like info that doesn’t fit their narrow view of things.  I had a narrow view as a player and only opened up about new ideas when I decided I wanted to teach.

 

People will counter they see me poo pooing ideas all the time.  Yes, if someone told me the best way to get a scab to heel is rub the area with a cheese grater, I’m not open to that.

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

30 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Therein lies the issue with golf instruction and tips.

 

If you told a non golfer who knew nothing, it would make perfect sense to them.

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if there is a special brain eating virus emitted by golf balls or something.

 

Myths get propagated in golf that nobody would be dumb or brave enough to repeat in other sports.

 

Imagine telling a baseball pitcher or tennis player to have passive arms and hands and use their body for power. The pitcher would struggle to crack 20 mph and the tennis player's shots wouldn't reach the net.

 

Backswing doesn't count...try that on a serve in tennis (probably the closest analogy to a golf swing in tennis because you aren't reacting to the opponent's shot and the ball is wherever you chose to toss it).

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Sometimes I wonder if there is a special brain eating virus emitted by golf balls or something.

 

Myths get propagated in golf that nobody would be dumb or brave enough to repeat in other sports.

 

Imagine telling a baseball pitcher or tennis player to have passive arms and hands and use their body for power. The pitcher would struggle to crack 20 mph and the tennis player's shots wouldn't reach the net.

 

Backswing doesn't count...try that on a serve in tennis (probably the closest analogy to a golf swing in tennis because you aren't reacting to the opponent's shot and the ball is wherever you chose to toss it).

I’ll go farther.  When track sprinters are warming up and training, they practice pumping their arms up and down as fast as they can because that force adds speed.  How would that not translate to an activity where there are actually attached to what you’re trying to speed up.  People have never seen me give a lesson criticize that I teach an all arm swing and I get PM’s from clients who laugh.  
 

If you were to label what I teach it’s to make sure the arms don’t engage late or they will take over because they have to.  I hate swings that the arms are too engaged like everyone else.  For many golfers that have those swings, the arms over engage late because they never engaged when they were supposed to.

 

Try throwing a frisbee left handed or hit a left handed cross court back hand (if you’re a right handed golfer) where the arm is completely passive and falls with gravity.  Try running where your arms are passive and just flail around .  

 

I make a joke that when you enter a golf course parking lot, 80% of your brain is held in escrow above the service road and it comes back when you leave.

 

 

 

[Soloman1]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:46 AM, Avid_but_mediocre said:

You probably already know this, but Gareth Raflewski was talking about this with respect to putting and the new glasses he came out with (have a narrow slit to see through to limit where you can look at setup).

 

Perhaps new for him, but I made them long ago.

[Avid_but_mediocre]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Perhaps new for him, but I made them long ago.

Nice! Did you see positive results?

[Soloman1]

It’s excellent for solving what Monte explained and most excellent in swiveling the head when looking at an intermediate spot or the hole for putting alignment.

 

And very stylish at the gym or the mall…

[MonteScheinblum]

A fun moment just now that shows how much this works.  Look at swings 1-7. Inconsistent low point and 2 way miss.

 

Swing 8 I told him I could get him to make a left path without him swinging differently.  He laughed.  I held his head and tilted his eyeline left.

 

Swing 9 he tried on his own.

 

Swing 10 I held his head again and said, “I’ll give you a 1-3 in to out on this one.”

 

Its fun when the trackman makes you look smarter than you are

Edited January 15 by MonteScheinblum

[Nickb333]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:18 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

To give an idea of the fault, below are some of my swings from a few months ago. Especially in the face-on view, you can see that although I set up with my head fairly neutral, the first move off the ball I immediately tilt my head right:

 

 

With the change, I didn't really make any difference to my setup--maybe my head was naturally tilted SLIGHTLY less right than before because I was thinking about head position, but it wasn't necessarily something I consciously changed. Nor did I do anything to lift my chin or otherwise change head position. 

 

All I did was to consciously make sure that I was looking down at the ball and not letting my head fall off to the right during the swing.

 

 

So, for us dumb bass, which numbers are out to in & which are in to out?