Please help! So should we use the bounce or not?

[nikegolfer93]

For the past couple years, I've been watching shortgamechef videos and he's a big advocate for using the bounce on the wedge when chipping. He actually encourages hitting a little behind the ball. 

I started to change my technique because as junior, I always chipped with the leading edge and trying to clip the ball clean. Recent years, I've been using the bounce more and hitting slightly behind the ball. 

However, it seems to me that a lot of people are now advocating for using the leading edge and hitting the ball first before turf. 

I'm really confused at the moment. I also watched a video with Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey, where they are also supporters of using the bounce and hitting behind the ball a bit for shots around the green. 

Can someone please explain this to me? Thank you very much. 

[CSagan]

[getitdaily]

They are both shots you should be able to execute.

 

However, be careful (or get specific clarity)with the term "hit behind the ball".

 

To me, using the bounce doesn't mean hitting behind the ball at all. It means hitting the ball first but with the leading edge slightly above the turf so it never engages the turf....the flange engages the turf.

[Primo1868]

If you haven't already, please read this thread:

 

After, your confusion will be so great you may not worry about chipping ever again. Texas wedge from every lie.

[Ri_Redneck]

Don't go to that thread as it's just really a p1ssing contest amongst dissenters. As Getitdaily said, you should be proficient at both methods and know what conditions call for each one. Some conditions can be handled with either, but there are certain times when one will be a bit better than the other. The main point is you HAVE to practice both methods so that you're comfortable with them both. Having more than one shot/technique will expand your abilities in playing / shotmaking.

 

BT

[DaveLeeNC]

Take this with a grain of salt from someone who is only moderately successful (so far) at the concept of using the bounce around the greens...  but a better mental perspective might be 'slide the club under the ball' rather than 'hit behind the ball a tad'. 

 

dave

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, nikegolfer93 said:

For the past couple years, I've been watching shortgamechef videos and he's a big advocate for using the bounce on the wedge when chipping. He actually encourages hitting a little behind the ball.

 

Sometimes, that's a great way to go. I teach that to a lot of golfers. There are other times when you don't want to use the bounce.

 

As with a lot of things… they're two different ways to accomplish often slightly different shots. You should become well versed in both, as ends of a spectrum, and know that almost every shot you ever hit will be somewhere in between them. If that spectrum runs from 1 to 10, you might like to live at 7 for a lot of your shots… but knowing how to hit a 9 or a 2 will be valuable.

 

50 minutes ago, nikegolfer93 said:

However, it seems to me that a lot of people are now advocating for using the leading edge and hitting the ball first before turf.

 

FWIW "ball first" is not the same as "leading edge." You can hit the ball first but still engage the bounce through the shot. But… I get what you mean. This is a little pedantic.. 😄 

 

50 minutes ago, nikegolfer93 said:

I'm really confused at the moment. I also watched a video with Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey, where they are also supporters of using the bounce and hitting behind the ball a bit for shots around the green. 

Can someone please explain this to me? Thank you very much. 

 

Learn both types of shots.

 

9 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Don't go to that thread as it's just really a p1ssing contest amongst dissenters.

 

No, it's not that. It's a topic where a duo said basically "use the bounce everywhere, hit 6" behind the ball, even from 120 yards!" and others (mostly me 😄) said "uhhh, no."

 

I agree with the overall warning to not bother to read the topic, though. 😄 

 

7 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Take this with a grain of salt from someone who is only moderately successful (so far) at the concept of using the bounce around the greens...  but a better mental perspective might be 'slide the club under the ball' rather than 'hit behind the ball a tad'.

 

That picture may work for some, but for many, I find that such a mental picture or feel encourages too much trail hand action to actively "slide" the club under the ball.

 

But, I'm sure the idea works for some.

[nikegolfer93]

55 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Don't go to that thread as it's just really a p1ssing contest amongst dissenters. As Getitdaily said, you should be proficient at both methods and know what conditions call for each one. Some conditions can be handled with either, but there are certain times when one will be a bit better than the other. The main point is you HAVE to practice both methods so that you're comfortable with them both. Having more than one shot/technique will expand your abilities in playing / shotmaking.

 

BT

Can you actually expand on the certain conditions? 

When should I use the leading edge vs the bounce? 

[DaveLeeNC]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

That picture may work for some, but for many, I find that such a mental picture or feel encourages too much trail hand action to actively "slide" the club under the ball.

 

But, I'm sure the idea works for some.

 

Interesting that you should observe that (re: thought of 'sliding under the ball'). For me my instincts (took years of practice to get there) are now to hit down and through the ball. Now that I think about things, when I returned to golf after decades away (in the early 2000's) I was a scooper on just about everything, and adding that 'slide under' concept would have been counter productive for me back then. 

 

dave

[nikegolfer93]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Sometimes, that's a great way to go. I teach that to a lot of golfers. There are other times when you don't want to use the bounce.

 

As with a lot of things… they're two different ways to accomplish often slightly different shots. You should become well versed in both, as ends of a spectrum, and know that almost every shot you ever hit will be somewhere in between them. If that spectrum runs from 1 to 10, you might like to live at 7 for a lot of your shots… but knowing how to hit a 9 or a 2 will be valuable.

 

 

FWIW "ball first" is not the same as "leading edge." You can hit the ball first but still engage the bounce through the shot. But… I get what you mean. This is a little pedantic.. 😄 

 

 

Learn both types of shots.

 

 

No, it's not that. It's a topic where a duo said basically "use the bounce everywhere, hit 6" behind the ball, even from 120 yards!" and others (mostly me 😄) said "uhhh, no."

 

I agree with the overall warning to not bother to read the topic, though. 😄 

 

 

That picture may work for some, but for many, I find that such a mental picture or feel encourages too much trail hand action to actively "slide" the club under the ball.

 

But, I'm sure the idea works for some.

 

In your opinion, when should you engage the bounce and when should you use the leading edge?

[The Mad Bomber]

Think of bounce as another form of forgiveness. When you engage the bounce, you engage the forgiveness characteristics of the club. When the handle is back and the bounce is presented, you have a lot more leeway to catch it a little heavy and still get a good result. If you lean the shaft a lot, that's fine, but imperfect contact will have far poorer results. You can spin the ball with either method, but trajectory control tends to be easier when the handle is back and the bounce is engaged simply by changing clubs, and again, contact will feel more consistent for most people. Unless I'm trying to hit a very specific shot where I drive a PW low up a hill without too much spin, I never lean the shaft and clip it. 99.9% of the time, I'm using that bounce and giving myself the best possible chance to hit a good shot. If you stick with Parker McLachlin, your short game will improve. 

[Pepperturbo]

3 hours ago, nikegolfer93 said:

For the past couple years, I've been watching shortgamechef videos and he's a big advocate for using the bounce on the wedge when chipping. He actually encourages hitting a little behind the ball. 

I started to change my technique because as junior, I always chipped with the leading edge and trying to clip the ball clean. Recent years, I've been using the bounce more and hitting slightly behind the ball. 

However, it seems to me that a lot of people are now advocating for using the leading edge and hitting the ball first before turf. 

I'm really confused at the moment. I also watched a video with Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey, where they are also supporters of using the bounce and hitting behind the ball a bit for shots around the green. 

Can someone please explain this to me? Thank you very much. 

Too much input from the internet, you'll find yourself perpetually confused.  IMO, it's best to source a limited number of respected instructors, that approach the game in similar ways, and ignore the rest.  When I took up golf I used ONLY "3" books authored by PGA Pros.  Each of those books are on my desk and still used today.  If I am in a quandary, I go back to one of those books, vs, what's said on DB's.

 

The lie and what is between your ball and the pin determines your shot, and how you set up to the ball.  The short game has a few mechanical aspects, but most of it requires a creative mind with a lot of feel.  My SM9 M-58 LW has low 8* bounce.  When the face is square, the leading edge slides under the back of the ball.  However, when the face is fractionally opened it effectively creates additional bounce, which necessitates hitting behind the ball.  In other words, that means, depending on the ground under the ball, if your wedge has 12-14' bounce, you'll hit a tad behind the ball because of the raised leading edge.

  

 

Edited January 22 by Pepperturbo

[ShortGolfer]

I find that engaging the bounce is easiest from a fairway lie.

Which far different from the grass in my back yard.

 

In order to putt you need to be able to read greens.

In order to use the bounce you need to be able to read your lie.

[Scottbox]

For a stock bump and run, ball back, hands a little forward, narrow stance, and hit the ball first is a pretty good idea (I mean, even shortgamechef teaches that). But as other posters have intimated, you have to adapt your approach to the lie and shot you're attempting to achieve. Without writing a massive essay, I'd highly recommend looking at James Oh's channel on YouTube. He simplifies things a lot and talks about all the variables you'll run into on the course and what you need to do to adapt:

 

JAMES OH ON YOUTUBE

Edited January 22 by Scottbox

[Cliffy2020]

PM sent

[virtuoso]

44 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

For a stock bump and run, ball back, hands a little forward, narrow stance, and hit the ball first is a pretty good idea (I mean, even shortgamechef teaches that). But as other posters have intimated, you have to adapt your approach to the lie and shot you're attempting to achieve. Without writing a massive essay, I'd highly recommend looking at James Oh's channel on YouTube. He simplifies things a lot and talks about all the variables you'll run into on the course and what you need to do to adapt:

 

JAMES OH ON YOUTUBE

Jimmy O is a good dude.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, nikegolfer93 said:

In your opinion, when should you engage the bounce and when should you use the leading edge?

 

First, would you be comfortable defining "using the bounce?" Every club "uses" bounce when it gets into the ground at some point to help it get out of the ground.

 

Also, I'm not a big fan of calling it "using the leading edge" because you never really hit a shot with the leading edge. You're more just "not using the sole immediately." But that's too wordy, so I know what you mean… I just don't like the phrase and wish there was a better one.

 

 

[nikegolfer93]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

First, would you be comfortable defining "using the bounce?" Every club "uses" bounce when it gets into the ground at some point to help it get out of the ground.

 

Also, I'm not a big fan of calling it "using the leading edge" because you never really hit a shot with the leading edge. You're more just "not using the sole immediately." But that's too wordy, so I know what you mean… I just don't like the phrase and wish there was a better one.

 

 

Yeah absolutely, I am certainly not afraid of hitting shots around the green where open the wedge up and hit a little behind the ball. I find it to be imperative that there is no tension when I'm doing this technique. I also try to bruise the ground. I really do it like the way Billy Horschel does it in his video with Bob Vokey. 

However, when I was younger, I was the opposite. I would have shaft lean and really try to clip the ball, while coming steep. I would also make a divot every time I chipped like this. 

[Chunkitgood]

I could be wrong but it seems to me using the bounce as commonly interpreted at least means inevitably giving up spin loft and therefore spin and therefore giving up a means of controlling the outcome of the shot.  Of course you could (and apparently people do) use higher lofted clubs, but then the trajectory is higher.

 

It seems to me the optimum chip is with a lower loft club struck a descending blow that doesn’t go any higher than necessary and stops with spin.

 

Like any other golf shot.

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I could be wrong but it seems to me using the bounce as commonly interpreted at least means inevitably giving up spin loft and therefore spin and therefore giving up a means of controlling the outcome of the shot.  Of course you could (and apparently people do) use higher lofted clubs, but then the trajectory is higher.

 

It seems to me the optimum chip is with a lower loft club struck a descending blow that doesn’t go any higher than necessary and stops with spin.

 

Like any other golf shot.

 

You say that using the bounce (in the context of this thread) 'inevitably gives up spin loft'. Why do you say that? Again in the context of this thread, you are coming into the ball with a flatter trajectory (reducing spin loft) and a more open face (more loft increasing spin loft). Maybe this decreases spin loft or maybe it increases spin loft. My sense of things is that this does reduce spin but I have felt like it was because of contact that not as clean introducing grass/whatever between the ball and the clubface. 

 

dave

[iacas]

9 hours ago, nikegolfer93 said:

Yeah absolutely, I am certainly not afraid of hitting shots around the green where open the wedge up and hit a little behind the ball. I find it to be imperative that there is no tension when I'm doing this technique. I also try to bruise the ground. I really do it like the way Billy Horschel does it in his video with Bob Vokey. 

However, when I was younger, I was the opposite. I would have shaft lean and really try to clip the ball, while coming steep. I would also make a divot every time I chipped like this. 

 

You didn't define "using the bounce" so much. 😄 

 

The answer to your earlier question is not good: "it depends." For the sake of convenience, if we call bounce a "Parker" shot and if we call not using the bounce a "Joe," then I have students who Parker everything they can. I also have students who Joe it all the time.

 

Because they like those shots, they get good at them. There's a case to be made for becoming a master of one shot and not trying to be a jack of all trades, but… around the greens, I think there IS benefits to having variety. Like I said earlier, I see it as existing on a spectrum. You rarely hit a "pure Joe" or a "pure Parker." You've got to learn both ends of the spectrum (it's really almost just that - two shots or styles).

 

And then match the shot you choose to the conditions. You can love using the bounce, but try to do it off a muddy lie.

 

Nicklaus once asked a guy "do you like to stop the ball with trajectory or spin" and the answer is slightly different for everyone.

 

8 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I could be wrong but it seems to me using the bounce as commonly interpreted at least means inevitably giving up spin loft and therefore spin and therefore giving up a means of controlling the outcome of the shot.  Of course you could (and apparently people do) use higher lofted clubs, but then the trajectory is higher.

 

It seems to me the optimum chip is with a lower loft club struck a descending blow that doesn’t go any higher than necessary and stops with spin.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying there.

 

Spin generally increases up one side of the spin loft mountain, the peak of which is around 55°. So… you can take a 60° wedge, deliver 15° of shaft lean and hit 10° down, and you get 55° and somewhere really close to peak spin. Or you can take a 48° wedge, deliver it 6° down with only 6° of shaft lean (still not quite "using bounce")… and get… 48° of spin loft, for most likely less spin. Deliver 10° of shaft lean while hitting 6° down and you've narrowed it to 44° and less spin.

 

So I'm not sure what "giving up spin loft" means.

 

(Tiger and some other guys can hit "high spinners" too - deliver about 52° of loft with an AoA of about -3° to get a higher launch angle than the "low spinner" but with about the same amount of spin, sometimes more because you have to swing a bit harder to get it to fly as far.)

[vman]

Interesting podcast with Mark Immelmann and Spieth, where Jordan talks about his short game technique and his low bounce lob wedge.

[jonsnow]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You didn't define "using the bounce" so much. 😄 

 

The answer to your earlier question is not good: "it depends." For the sake of convenience, if we call bounce a "Parker" shot and if we call not using the bounce a "Joe," then I have students who Parker everything they can. I also have students who Joe it all the time.

 

Because they like those shots, they get good at them. There's a case to be made for becoming a master of one shot and not trying to be a jack of all trades, but… around the greens, I think there IS benefits to having variety. Like I said earlier, I see it as existing on a spectrum. You rarely hit a "pure Joe" or a "pure Parker." You've got to learn both ends of the spectrum (it's really almost just that - two shots or styles).

 

And then match the shot you choose to the conditions. You can love using the bounce, but try to do it off a muddy lie.

 

Nicklaus once asked a guy "do you like to stop the ball with trajectory or spin" and the answer is slightly different for everyone.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're saying there.

 

Spin generally increases up one side of the spin loft mountain, the peak of which is around 55°. So… you can take a 60° wedge, deliver 15° of shaft lean and hit 10° down, and you get 55° and somewhere really close to peak spin. Or you can take a 48° wedge, deliver it 6° down with only 6° of shaft lean (still not quite "using bounce")… and get… 48° of spin loft, for most likely less spin. Deliver 10° of shaft lean while hitting 6° down and you've narrowed it to 44° and less spin.

 

So I'm not sure what "giving up spin loft" means.

 

(Tiger and some other guys can hit "high spinners" too - deliver about 52° of loft with an AoA of about -3° to get a higher launch angle than the "low spinner" but with about the same amount of spin, sometimes more because you have to swing a bit harder to get it to fly as far.)

Even if a player can play both effectively, don't we all have shots we are more comfortable with that we tend to default to unless conditions prevent doing so? Disclaimer: this is coming from someone who can't play either effectively at the moment...

EDIT: didn't finish reading your post before responding. I exist on a spectrum too.

Edited January 23 by jonsnow

[iacas]

2 hours ago, jonsnow said:

Even if a player can play both effectively, don't we all have shots we are more comfortable with that we tend to default to unless conditions prevent doing so? Disclaimer: this is coming from someone who can't play either effectively at the moment...

 

Most people are more proficient with one end of the spectrum over the other, yeah. The point is that not EVERY shot is hit as a 2 or as a 9. You should be able to do some shots that are on the other end of the spectrum from your preference.

 

[ferrispgm]

I have been working on the steeper aoa shot for a few weeks and have gotten really comfortable with it after a few rounds.  I find that I prefer this shot when I have a decent amount of green to work with, or if the ground is super soft or hard pan.  It's almost automatic to hit a decent shot once you get over the fear of being too steep.  UTB was my go to for every shot in the past and I had a pretty good short game but I never felt totally comfortable when there was a ton of green especially and using less loft felt awkward no matter how much I tried.  Having both shots has made things a ton easier for sure.

[nikegolfer93]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Most people are more proficient with one end of the spectrum over the other, yeah. The point is that not EVERY shot is hit as a 2 or as a 9. You should be able to do some shots that are on the other end of the spectrum from your preference.

 

 

Could you give me an instance where I would use the "Joe" shot? 

Like why would I sacrifice the forgiveness to hit a low spinner? More predictability if I can consistently hit it? 

Thanks for answering btw. 

[EddieEdwards]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

And then match the shot you choose to the conditions. You can love using the bounce, but try to do it off a muddy lie.

 

I've tried this recently after Monte suggested a power chunk in another thread.  While I'm not sure exactly what he meant by that.  I picked the softest, wettest lies I could find, and opened up the the face to where I didn't think it would dig. It worked pretty well even though I was hitting the ground first. 

[iacas]

11 hours ago, nikegolfer93 said:

Could you give me an instance where I would use the "Joe" shot? 

Like why would I sacrifice the forgiveness to hit a low spinner? More predictability if I can consistently hit it?

 

Well, sometimes you don’t have that “forgiveness.” Good luck trying to land the club into mud an inch behind the ball. Or off hardpan.

 

Another reason, as you said, is that some people find it to be a more predictable, better shot.

 

Others would say you actually have more forgiveness with a forward leaning shaft and a steeper AoA for contact height:

 

 

Other times, it’s simply a better shot to hit. It requires a smaller swing than a comparative distance high shot. It’s got a different trajectory and landing angle, can launch lower and take a hop over a tier but then stop quickly, etc.

 

Edited January 24 by iacas
clarity

[Scottbox]

The entire concept of "using the bounce" is pretty oversimplified by instructors, and doesn't really reflect all the possibilities. It's quite possible to slide the leading edge along the ground with shaft lean, or "use the bounce" and dump it into the turf behind the ball. As in the full swing, matchups are key:

 

 

 

Edited January 24 by Scottbox

[naval2006]

The bounce topic reminds me of rake in the bunker or not.