WHS Change - 9 Holes. Dealing w/Exploit

[rzitup]

The change has been discussed, whereby a 9 hole score is now posted as a "full score".

A potential issue with this is the ability for a player to post a 9 hole score with the intent of knocking off an 18 hole score.  

 

A golfer at a club is eyeing his index, and notices he has two low, counting rounds at the bottom of his 20.  

He joins a group of friends and plays the back nine in the morning, and posts a 9 hole score. 

He then eats lunch, and joins another group for the front 9, and posts another 9 hole score.  

 

Is this the correct way to post these two scores, or should be be combining the two and posting 18?

What about the same foursome, plays the front nine, then takes a break, has lunch, and goes out on the back in the afternoon?

[davep043]

In general, the Rules are not written with "cheaters" in mind.  As you have described it, this player is intentionally manipulating his handicap, he's a cheater.   The Rules don't specify this, but in my opinion the "right" thing to do would be to combine the two nines, assuming he did play two separate nines.  Intentional manipulation like you describe would be something for a Handicap Committee to review closely, with the potential to combine those 9-hole scores into a single posting, or to manually adjust his handicap, or to post a "penalty score".  It depends on the attitude of the Committee, perhaps a single instance wouldn't lead to any type of discipline, but repeated actions like this just might.

[david.c.w]

What if he has a good 9 hole round? 

 

Agree with @davep043that the rules can't be written around cheaters.  Cheaters will always find a way.  

 

 

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

I dont think this will be the exploit you think it is other than to make more vanity caps methinks.

[lookylookitzadam]

It seems like it would be easy enough for the coding to check if two 9-hole rounds are entered and a day, from the same course, and if so combine them into a single 18-hole score. 

[Hawkeye77]

 

Personally, I find the change in the rule a little silly.  Who has to wait and wait and wait for another 9 hole round to be combined and so what?  That was the first stated reason.  Later justifications offered by the USGA in the FAQs were a little weak, IMO.

 

Seems to me another populist change ("hey, we're here for you ordinary 9 hole golfer") and now some algorithms kicking in when there was no real problem to solve in the first place.  

Edited February 5 by Hawkeye77

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Personally, I find the change in the rule a little silly.  Who has to wait and wait and wait for another 9 hole round to be combined and so what?  That was the first stated reason.  Later justifications offered by the USGA in the FAQs were a little weak, IMO.

 

Seems to me another populist change ("hey, we're here for you ordinary 9 hole golfer") and now some algorithms kicking in when there was no real problem to solve in the first place.  

Haven't they just come into line with the rest of the world where an 18 hole score was calculated according to a formula. As it happens that formula has been adjusted to make a better estimate related to the individual player.

Edited February 5 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Newby said:

Haven't they just into line with the rest of the world where an 18 hole score was calculated according to a formula. Asit happens that formula has been adjusted to make a better estimate related to the individual player.

 

Are you saying that's what the R&A was already doing and the USGA is finally jumping on board?  I just assumed (on me for that if I'm wrong, lol) since it was a WHS change it was something both the USGA and R&A were doing.

 

Or are you referring to the fact that there was something being adjusted in some way when 9s were combined previously?  If so, and maybe that's what you were getting at, this seems more "drastic" and not sure what "rest of the world" means.

 

Just trying to clarify!

[Newby]

25 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Are you saying that's what the R&A was already doing and the USGA is finally jumping on board?  I just assumed (on me for that if I'm wrong, lol) since it was a WHS change it was something both the USGA and R&A were doing.

 

Or are you referring to the fact that there was something being adjusted in some way when 9s were combined previously?  If so, and maybe that's what you were getting at, this seems more "drastic" and not sure what "rest of the world" means.

 

Just trying to clarify!

The R&A has never combined two nines. I don't think that Europe and Australia did either.

Edit: I now find that prior to 1 April Oz did combine two 9s. They will be changing on 1 April

 

But there are regular posters here from outside the US.

 

"RoW" is effectively outside USGA jurisdiction.

Edited February 5 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

The R&A has never combined two nines. I don't think that Europe and Australia did either.

But there are regular posters here from outside the US.

 

"RoW" is effectively outside USGA jurisdiction.

So meaning we're now following what the R&A did?  Meaning they took a 9 hole and extrapolated?

 

Not that they care, lol, but if it is the USGA now doing what the R&A has been doing, it gives me more confidence in the method.

[Newby]

Basically the US & Oz are changing to an 'estimated' score rather than combined 9s

 

Beginning in January, the WHS will use an “expected score” formula to take nine-hole scores and adjust them to 18-hole score differentials. That means golfers no longer will have to post a nine-hole score and then need to wait for an accompanying nine-hole score for it to be paired with to create an 18-hole number.

How does the new formula work? Using the data gathered from previous year’s posted scores, a model scoring formula for every handicap index for males and females has been developed. The appropriate one will be applied to your index and create an expected score on any remaining holes you had for handicap purposes, taking the place of applying a score of net par for any missing holes. The new formula is built to account for a standard golf course, so the calculations are no longer course dependent compared to the math applied in the past.

[Newby]

From Europe:

 

Use of an Expected Score for a Hole Not Played: Improvements have been made to the method used to handle holes not played, which will now be based on a player’s expected score rather than a score of net par. This new method will produce a Score Differential that more accurately reflects a player’s ability. As golfers across the world are playing more 9-hole rounds, an expected score can be used to convert a 9-hole round into an 18-hole Score Differential

Edited February 5 by Newby

[rzitup]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

In general, the Rules are not written with "cheaters" in mind.  As you have described it, this player is intentionally manipulating his handicap, he's a cheater.   The Rules don't specify this, but in my opinion the "right" thing to do would be to combine the two nines, assuming he did play two separate nines.  Intentional manipulation like you describe would be something for a Handicap Committee to review closely, with the potential to combine those 9-hole scores into a single posting, or to manually adjust his handicap, or to post a "penalty score".  It depends on the attitude of the Committee, perhaps a single instance wouldn't lead to any type of discipline, but repeated actions like this just might.

 

I get that these things aren't decided based off of how someone might take advantage, but in this case I was more questioning the logic of having a 9 hole score replace an 18 hole score.  I guess the fact that its 9 holes, and not 13, has me questioning it, and if there was a reason to make the change.

 

In this scenario, while the golfer was obviously focused on a goal, is what he did really cheating, or is it the right way to post the two nines?

 

Take the exact scenario, where a golfer plays the front 9 in the morning with his regular group, and then heads to the clubhouse as he usually does.  A few hours later a different group of friends comes by the clubhouse after 9 and talk him into joining them on the back.  He doesnt care one way or the other, but is he supposed to record 18 together?  Even though its two different groups of people verifying his score? And not played as 18 holes?

 

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

I get that these things aren't decided based off of how someone might take advantage, but in this case I was more questioning the logic of having a 9 hole score replace an 18 hole score.  I guess the fact that its 9 holes, and not 13, has me questioning it, and if there was a reason to make the change.

 

In this scenario, while the golfer was obviously focused on a goal, is what he did really cheating, or is it the right way to post the two nines?

 

Take the exact scenario, where a golfer plays the front 9 in the morning with his regular group, and then heads to the clubhouse as he usually does.  A few hours later a different group of friends comes by the clubhouse after 9 and talk him into joining them on the back.  He doesnt care one way or the other, but is he supposed to record 18 together?  Even though its two different groups of people verifying his score? And not played as 18 holes?

 

The situation will not be the same after 1 April 2024.

[Hawkeye77]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

From Europe:

 

Use of an Expected Score for a Hole Not Played: Improvements have been made to the method used to handle holes not played, which will now be based on a player’s expected score rather than a score of net par. This new method will produce a Score Differential that more accurately reflects a player’s ability. As golfers across the world are playing more 9-hole rounds, an expected score can be used to convert a 9-hole round into an 18-hole Score Differential

So it's what I said to start with - others are making the same change we are with respect to converting 9 hole rounds to 18 hole rounds.

[SNIPERBBB]

29 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

I get that these things aren't decided based off of how someone might take advantage, but in this case I was more questioning the logic of having a 9 hole score replace an 18 hole score.  I guess the fact that its 9 holes, and not 13, has me questioning it, and if there was a reason to make the change.

 

In this scenario, while the golfer was obviously focused on a goal, is what he did really cheating, or is it the right way to post the two nines?

 

Take the exact scenario, where a golfer plays the front 9 in the morning with his regular group, and then heads to the clubhouse as he usually does.  A few hours later a different group of friends comes by the clubhouse after 9 and talk him into joining them on the back.  He doesnt care one way or the other, but is he supposed to record 18 together?  Even though its two different groups of people verifying his score? And not played as 18 holes?

 

Thing is the potential score for 18 will be normalized. So the effect of entering two 9s unless they happen to be exceptionally bad/good, the resulting scores will not have much impact. 

[rzitup]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Thing is the potential score for 18 will be normalized. So the effect of entering two 9s unless they happen to be exceptionally bad/good, the resulting scores will not have much impact. 

 

Except it will replace two 18 hole scores, vs one.  Which gives the golfer the flexibility to do as he wishes unless there is some guidance on how to handle it.

[rogolf]

20 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

Except it will replace two 18 hole scores, vs one.  Which gives the golfer the flexibility to do as he wishes unless there is some guidance on how to handle it.

As someone said above, cheaters gonna cheat.  Can't build a system that eliminates it totally.  Thank goodness the vast majority of players aren't in that category.

[Hawkeye77]

30 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Thing is the potential score for 18 will be normalized. So the effect of entering two 9s unless they happen to be exceptionally bad/good, the resulting scores will not have much impact. 

I disagree - one of them is fictional vs. an actual round played as it was before. 

[rzitup]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

As someone said above, cheaters gonna cheat.  Can't build a system that eliminates it totally.  Thank goodness the vast majority of players aren't in that category.

 

As mentioned in my other post, I am more questioning what the right way to post two 9s is under the format.   Or is it player discretion, which opens it up to being exploited.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, rzitup said:

 

I get that these things aren't decided based off of how someone might take advantage, but in this case I was more questioning the logic of having a 9 hole score replace an 18 hole score.  I guess the fact that its 9 holes, and not 13, has me questioning it, and if there was a reason to make the change.

 

In this scenario, while the golfer was obviously focused on a goal, is what he did really cheating, or is it the right way to post the two nines?

 

As I understand it, in CONGU areas (GB&I) a 9-hole score has always been scaled up to an 18-hole score for handicap purposes, with the "second nine" being essentially par + (handicap strokes) + 1.  I'm not sure what is done in other jurisdictions  This change brings the USGA areas closer to the rest of the world in this regard.    

To your second question, you originally phrased this as something the player is doing intentionally, after noticing that two "good" scores will be ageing off his record.  If its accidental, he thought he was done and then decided to play some more, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  On the other hand, if I was the player, I might let the pro/committee know what happened, and they might choose to combine the two 9-hole scores, so that only one of the old good scores was eliminated.

[Imp]

As someone that plays a 9 hole courses and 18 hole courses on the regular, this is going to be interesting. 

 

I think the OP is on to something with possibly gaming the system, but it can't be cheating, because "that's the way it works now". 

 

All 18 holes in a day on an 18 hole course, and that's one 18 hole score calculated (as long as the players doesn't treat them as separate 9s)

 

Compared to...

The front 9 twice on an 18 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

The back 9 twice on an 18 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

18 holes in a day on a 9 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

 

Or, in the OPs case, what if they play the front 9 of an 18 hole course, go in, submit, have lunch, and get invited to join on the back 9. (And then submit). IMHO, the USGA software SHOULD be combining these at end of day. However, I'm not seeing it anywhere in the USGA Handicapping rules as a calculation/allowance.

 

Never mind if someone plays 27 holes on a 9 hole course in a day. 

 

 

13 hours ago, davep043 said:

On the other hand, if I was the player, I might let the pro/committee know what happened, and they might choose to combine the two 9-hole scores, so that only one of the old good scores was eliminated.

 

Dave, you mention that the committee can combine them. How? I cannot find that capability mentioned anywhere in the USGA Handicapping rules. They have eliminated the capability (verbiage) regarding combining separate 9 hole scores into an 18, so I would think there would be no capability to do what you suggest, lacking a calculation, especially playing "the same 9s" (Front/back of an 18 hole course, that's easy, remove the scores and submit an 18 hole score).

 

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, Imp said:

As someone that plays a 9 hole courses and 18 hole courses on the regular, this is going to be interesting. 

 

I think the OP is on to something with possibly gaming the system, but it can't be cheating, because "that's the way it works now". 

 

All 18 holes in a day on an 18 hole course, and that's one 18 hole score calculated (as long as the players doesn't treat them as separate 9s)

 

Compared to...

The front 9 twice on an 18 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

The back 9 twice on an 18 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

18 holes in a day on a 9 hole course, and that's two 18 holes scores calculated.

 

Or, in the OPs case, what if they play the front 9 of an 18 hole course, go in, submit, have lunch, and get invited to join on the back 9. (And then submit). IMHO, the USGA software SHOULD be combining these at end of day. However, I'm not seeing it anywhere in the USGA Handicapping rules as a calculation/allowance.

 

Never mind if someone plays 27 holes on a 9 hole course in a day. 

 

 

 

Dave, you mention that the committee can combine them. How? I cannot find that capability mentioned anywhere in the USGA Handicapping rules. They have eliminated the capability (verbiage) regarding combining separate 9 hole scores into an 18, so I would think there would be no capability to do what you suggest, lacking a calculation, especially playing "the same 9s" (Front/back of an 18 hole course, that's easy, remove the scores and submit an 18 hole score).

 

I would imagine the committee could just go in, delete the 2 9's and just input the 18 hole combined score as a normal 18

Edited February 6 by SNIPERBBB

[Imp]

24 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I would imagine the committee could just go in, delete the 2 9's and just input the 18 hole combined score.

"Combined" is a word that was retired at the end of 2023 as far as I can tell per the 2024 handicap rules - as it relates to 9 hole scores. 

I'm not trying to be obtuse (and hopefully am not BEING/coming across as obtuse), but can you point out where in the 2024 Handicapping Rules that calculation where you (or specifically committee) can combine 9s into an 18 hole score for a) two front 9s, b) two back 9s, c) only 9 hole course where the course/slope is the same for each 9 hole round to be combined? Like, I have not bee able to find it. Bonus points if you can find it for front/back 9 on 18 holes and committee responsibility to do the combination. (And I can imagine the logistical nightmare to ensue espeically with 9 hole courses)

As I mentioned in my post, I did allow for the combination of 9s for an 18 hole course if they played front and back 9, but can't find it as part of their role anymore.  This was all prevalent in the 2023 and earlier rules where it went into much greater detail. Today? 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 6 by Imp

[SNIPERBBB]

as I edited it, the committee would just enter it as a normal 18 hole round after they deleted the "2 9's".

Edited February 6 by SNIPERBBB

[davep043]

40 minutes ago, Imp said:

Dave, you mention that the committee can combine them. How? I cannot find that capability mentioned anywhere in the USGA Handicapping rules. They have eliminated the capability (verbiage) regarding combining separate 9 hole scores into an 18, so I would think there would be no capability to do what you suggest, lacking a calculation, especially playing "the same 9s" (Front/back of an 18 hole course, that's easy, remove the scores and submit an 18 hole score).

 

@SNIPERBBB has it right, if the Committee chooses to, they can simply delete the two NH scores, and enter a single combined score.  If it was the same 9 played twice, they would manually enter the CR and slope.  From the admin page, all 9-hole scores show up as NH, so they're easy to find.  And the Committee has the authority to do almost anything they determine is appropriate.  I mentioned this would be an option to be used if the player came to the committee with the concern, I don't anticipate that a Committee would go searching for this situation.  I'm interested, though, and I'll send a note to my local AGA asking for guidance.

[bluedot]

16 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Personally, I find the change in the rule a little silly.  Who has to wait and wait and wait for another 9 hole round to be combined and so what?  That was the first stated reason.  Later justifications offered by the USGA in the FAQs were a little weak, IMO.

 

Seems to me another populist change ("hey, we're here for you ordinary 9 hole golfer") and now some algorithms kicking in when there was no real problem to solve in the first place.  

I’m one who had to “wait and wait and wait” for another 9 hole round.  I NEVER play 9 holes except in our Wednesday night men’s league during the summer, or in a club tournament format where we play a series of 9 hole matches.  If it happens to be the last match of the season, it could be months before I play another 9 hole round; last year, it was a 9 hole match from the Member-Guest in October combined with a 9 hole score from a league match in July.  Different weather, and VERY different course conditions.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW ... take the case of a golfer playing nothing but two 9 hole rounds (assume on a 9 hole course for sake of argument) on every day he/she plays. The resulting index calculation will be quite different than if the golf was played on an 18 hole course. The 9 hole golfer will NEVER post a score made up of two good 9's or of two bad 9's. And good scores/bad scores/all scores will 'roll off' twice as fast as they would for the 18 hole golfer. 

 

Just an observation of fact - not an editorial of what should or should not be done. 

 

dave

 

ps. Now for the editorial. I think the system should combine 9 hole scores played on the same day on the same course. From what I can see that does not happen. 

[Schulzmc]

17 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I dont think this will be the exploit you think it is other than to make more vanity caps methinks.

This. I have a friend who has already said if he has a great front nine he will quit and post it “to get his handicap down.” LOL

[davep043]

21 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

ps. Now for the editorial. I think the system should combine 9 hole scores played on the same day on the same course. From what I can see that does not happen. 

I just checked a couple of players from my club, and you're right.  Someone plays the front 9 twice, enters two 9-hole scores appropriately, and the result is two 18-hole entries in his Scoring Record.