WHS Change - 9 Holes. Dealing w/Exploit

[rogolf]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Hardly worth shouting about when compared with the 'net par + 1' used outside the US now but probably more realistic.

That may not be true around the world, certainly wasn't in Canada.  National Associations had their choice.

[davep043]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Hardly worth shouting about when compared with the 'net par + 1' used outside the US now but probably more realistic.

Agree.  Its something in the ballpark of "average differential", reflecting the wider variability typical for higher handicappers.

[ChaosTheory]

19 hours ago, davep043 said:

Just to be clear, do you think its pretty common that players will play 9 holes twice in the same day, the same 9 when there are a18 holes available?  I know there are 9-holes courses, or unusual occasions when you'll play the same 9 twice, but those are likely to be the exceptions rather than the rule.  

At our course, the front nine gets closed because of flooding for a handful of days a year.  So we play 18 on the back nine.  I’m going to check with our pro and our committee to make sure they get ahead of this.  
 

I wonder if and how Golf Genius software is handling such rounds.

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

I wonder if and how Golf Genius software is handling such rounds.

Golf Genius can be configured to post scores to GHIN, at least in my area.   If you were to hold an 18-hole competition using twice around a single 9-hole course, I imagine that it could be set up manually to post as a single 18-hole score.  CR would be double the 9-hole rating, Slope would be the 9-hole slope.

[Hawkeye77]

I'm sure I'm missing something - but why not just allow 9 hole rounds posted to be integrated into handicap without the need for making them "18"?  You play 18 you play 18, you play two 9 hole rounds at the same course in one day treat it as 18, otherwise just figure a way to let a 9 hole round stand on it's own and move on.

 

Are they just not wanting to let go of 18 holes being "the" standard?  That ship has basically sailed, IMO.  

 

Surely if all this figuring to incorporate a fictional back 9 into creating an 18 hole round is possible, they could figure a way to let a 9 hole round stand on its own and be factored in.  

 

Seems like there's some math they'll do and other math they won't -- can't be hard for smart math people.

[ChaosTheory]

I assume PCC adjustments will be the same for a 9->18 posting as for an 18?

[davep043]

2 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

I assume PCC adjustments will be the same for a 9->18 posting as for an 18?

Did you look, or just guess?  As I read the Rule, available in 5.1b here

 https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/rules-of-handicapping.html

half of the PCC is applied to the 9-hole differential, and THEN the "expected differential" is added.

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Did you look, or just guess?  As I read the Rule, available in 5.1b here

 https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/rules-of-handicapping.html

half of the PCC is applied to the 9-hole differential, and THEN the "expected differential" is added.

No, I didn’t look.  Thanks for the info.  That makes sense now that I think about it.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, I played 9 holes today on a 9 hole course. I putted well and beat my CH by 1 stroke (specifically my differential was 1.2 strokes less than half of my index). But I ended up posting a differential that was 0.2 strokes more than my current index. The real impact on my index will be minimal but it just felt wrong. I am not claiming that had I repeated those 9 holes that the result would have been better - it just felt wrong. I guess that is much like the golf swing mantra of "feel isn't real". 

 

dave

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

16 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

FWIW, I played 9 holes today on a 9 hole course. I putted well and beat my CH by 1 stroke (specifically my differential was 1.2 strokes less than half of my index). But I ended up posting a differential that was 0.2 strokes more than my current index. The real impact on my index will be minimal but it just felt wrong. I am not claiming that had I repeated those 9 holes that the result would have been better - it just felt wrong. I guess that is much like the golf swing mantra of "feel isn't real". 

 

dave

 

 

wrong part is that you can post lol. were little over a month away from posting season

[davep043]

10 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

FWIW, I played 9 holes today on a 9 hole course. I putted well and beat my CH by 1 stroke (specifically my differential was 1.2 strokes less than half of my index). But I ended up posting a differential that was 0.2 strokes more than my current index. The real impact on my index will be minimal but it just felt wrong. I am not claiming that had I repeated those 9 holes that the result would have been better - it just felt wrong. I guess that is much like the golf swing mantra of "feel isn't real". 

 

dave

This seems consistent with what I saw in my review.  Your "expected diff" is 1.4 over your HI for 9 holes.  Your posted 18-hole score is just about par, net, probably around 3 strokes lower than your average score.

[bluedot]

10 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

FWIW, I played 9 holes today on a 9 hole course. I putted well and beat my CH by 1 stroke (specifically my differential was 1.2 strokes less than half of my index). But I ended up posting a differential that was 0.2 strokes more than my current index. The real impact on my index will be minimal but it just felt wrong. I am not claiming that had I repeated those 9 holes that the result would have been better - it just felt wrong. I guess that is much like the golf swing mantra of "feel isn't real". 

 

dave

 

 

On a similar note, I have played, and will be for some time, rounds of less than 18 holes because of an ongoing bunker renovation project at my club.  Usually it’s 17 holes, a time or two only 16.

 

I’ve religiously post hole-by-hole, but for the life of me I can’t figure out how the algorithm arrives at the differential that gets posted.  That’s not a complaint; I’m just puzzled.

 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

On a similar note, I have played, and will be for some time, rounds of less than 18 holes because of an ongoing bunker renovation project at my club.  Usually it’s 17 holes, a time or two only 16.

 

I’ve religiously post hole-by-hole, but for the life of me I can’t figure out how the algorithm arrives at the differential that gets posted.  That’s not a complaint; I’m just puzzled.

I'm not sure exactly how your Expected Differential will be calculated, I anticipate it would be some prorated portion of the 9-hole expected differential.  As I noted by researching a number of 9-hole postings at my home club, the 9-hole ED is typically 1.2 to 1.8 strokes greater than the player's Handicap Index.  As for the differential for the holes played, I believe the system will calculate a CR and Slope for the actual holes you did play, and use it to calculate a differential.  It doesn't show up anywhere I know of, but the Scratch and Bogey ratings for each hole are maintained, so that "14-hole" (as an example) rating and slope can be calculated.  

[Newby]

9 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 It doesn't show up anywhere I know of, but the Scratch and Bogey ratings for each hole are maintained,

In the Course & Bogey Rating data. But I don't think it is in the WHS database. I suspect it uses Par (which is).

Edited February 8 by Newby

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

In the Course & Bogey Rating data. But I don't think it is the WHS database. I suspect it uses Par (which is).

I can get Scratch and Bogey ratings for a complete 18 holes on the USGA's course rating database, but not for individual holes.  However, I know they're compiled at the state or regional Authorized Golf Association level, along with all the measurements and other data that goes into the rating calculation.  I don't know for sure how much detail is provided to GHIN, the USGA handicap calculation system

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I can get Scratch and Bogey ratings for a complete 18 holes on the USGA's course rating database, but not for individual holes.  However, I know they're compiled at the state or regional Authorized Golf Association level, along with all the measurements and other data that goes into the rating calculation.  I don't know for sure how much detail is provided to GHIN, the USGA handicap calculation system

Yes, the individual hole data is held in the Course Rating files. 

Given that the same algorithms used for this process and PCC are common around the world and I can't find any evidence that the hole data is held in the WHS database(s), I would still guess it uses par.

[rzitup]

I started this thread on Monday, and as luck would have it, we got absolutely dumped on the following few days.  For a course/area that isnt used to such rain (8-10" in two days), the course took a beating.  Two holes in particular hills slide down onto the course.  Thankfully the course drains well and they were able to open 9 holes yesterday, and as you can imagine everyone was all over the 9 holes (we cant go days in a row without playing golf in So Cal!).  

100 people played 9/9 yesterday.  It might be this way for awhile.  And no one will post 18 hole scores because no one knows how to do that with the app (explained above).  Meaning 18 hole scores are going to fall off rapidly for many in the club.

 

I dont see the issue with auto combining the 9 hole rounds into 18, as it was before.  

Edited February 9 by rzitup

[Imp]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:21 PM, davep043 said:

Just to be clear, do you think its pretty common that players will play 9 holes twice in the same day, the same 9 when there are a18 holes available?  I know there are 9-holes courses, or unusual occasions when you'll play the same 9 twice, but those are likely to be the exceptions rather than the rule.  

Yes. Ask anyone at a 9 hole course, quite a few members/locals on weekends just spend the day/weekend there. Tournament maybe on the morning, casual 9 after lunch and drinks after the tournament. 

 

Most 9 hole courses (that I know of) are also 1st come 1st served... no tee times. Ball in rack or starter takes your name and pairs you up. You'd be surprised how many pickup games there are later in the day/after mornings rounds are done, not sure if you're going to play in the afternoon, or if you want to play in the morning but after a hot 9, figure you'll tempt fate again. ;)

 

 

[mneumann]

My experience with this this far is that it's definitely affecting my cap vs. the system last year, and as said in the op it's definitely a way for a cheater to take advantage, but I think a cheater will take advantage either way.

 

 

Personal experience, I play a lot of 9 hole rounds in the winter due to weather, daylight, work, etc and have played 4 9 hole rounds since the new year, also am currently playing better than average. 

 

Starting index was 1.6. All 4 rounds have been a 9 hole differential of -0.5 to 0.7. Combined rounds last year I would've posted 2 18 hole differentials of right around 0. This year because they made up another 9 for my score I have posted 4 differentials between 1.1 and 3.6. So I've displaced twice as many rounds as I would have last year and with higher numbers. So far estimate I'm getting a half to full stroke extra based on the new method, and that's without trying to cheat.

[Augster]

I’d like to inject here to trust the system. Also, it’s not cheating your cap if you’re posting correctly. And, if one’s cap ends up 1 shot higher than last year’s WHS number, it is very likely many, many others will also. So the net gain is zero. 
 

From what I’ve seen in posting 9-hole scores and 10+ hole scores, is the algorithm keeps differentials closer to one’s index. That is, the “made up differential” is close to a player’s average differential. 
 

Since we should shoot net par or better about 1/5 rounds, one could make the case that the other 4 rounds could be well outside our average differential and you’d end up with the same index. 
 

One could “game” the system for a little while, knocking off good 18-hole differentials with 9-hole scores, but eventually your entire index will be made up of these “closer to average differential” scores and likely hurt you in the long run. 
 

That’s what I’m seeing anyway from the 9-hole and 10+ hole scores myself, and others, have posted. 

Edited February 15 by Augster

[bluedot]

Another twist, and sorry if this has already been covered.  
 

Again, because of an ongoing bunker renovation project at my club, we’re playing only 17 holes most days.  

 

If you play 10-17 holes, and enter your hole-by-hole scores (but no stats) the algorithm will give you an 18 hole differential, but show your actual strokes taken, with the number of holes played in parentheses, rather than an 18 hole score.

 

However, if you play 10-17 holes and then enter your hole-by-hole scores WITH stats, the GHIN app DOES give an 18 hole score.  
 

So today, a buddy and I both had 74 strokes for 17 holes from the same tees.  The hole we didn’t play was a par 5, and a stroke hole for both of us. (He’s 8.0, I’m 4.9).  I entered hole-by-hole, and the app said 74 (17 holes, differential of 8.1.  My buddy entered hole-by-hole with stats, and the app gave him a 78, with a differential of 7.1.  So he did NOT get net par; it looks like the app gave him a birdie?  I have NO idea what it did with me.
 

Our head pro looked at this, had no idea what was going on, and called our state association office to inquire, only to find out that they didn’t know either.  
 

Mysterious…

[LCP]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:08 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

FWIW ... take the case of a golfer playing nothing but two 9 hole rounds (assume on a 9 hole course for sake of argument) on every day he/she plays. The resulting index calculation will be quite different than if the golf was played on an 18 hole course. The 9 hole golfer will NEVER post a score made up of two good 9's or of two bad 9's. And good scores/bad scores/all scores will 'roll off' twice as fast as they would for the 18 hole golfer. 

 

Just an observation of fact - not an editorial of what should or should not be done. 

 

dave

 

ps. Now for the editorial. I think the system should combine 9 hole scores played on the same day on the same course. From what I can see that does not happen. 

Agree 100%. I was just wondering about what to do the handful of times a year I play the same nine twice at my club instead of 18 (which has 27 holes), or I play one tees on the front 9 and another on the back 9.  We would all just enter our 9 hole scores, and on the same day, they'd be combined.  I've already observed a friend of mine who often gets 9 hole afternoon rounds in posting a ton of scores, and his handicap has gone up.  Because he never puts together a good round.  And handicap only counts your good rounds.  His good rounds now are only a good 9 combined with an average 9. If I ran a club/handicap committee at a normal course, I'd forbid posting 9 hole scores now. They are not reflective of 18 hole ability.  In the last 8-9 years of keeping my handicap, I'd bet I only had 9 hole randomly combined rounds come in more than a stroke under my handicap one time, although they probably "counted" in my handicap more frequently than a normal 18 hole round would; however, often one of my 2-3 worst rounds in my handicap was also a 9 hole combined score.

[DaveLeeNC]

9 hours ago, LCP said:

 His good rounds now are only a good 9 combined with an average 9. If I ran a club/handicap committee at a normal course, I'd forbid posting 9 hole scores now. They are not reflective of 18 hole ability.

 

If you did that you would almost certainly have an issue with the USGA/R&A. I agree with your point, but I think that your solution creates a different problem. 

 

Along the lines of your situation (27 hole club) there is a related situation at a club local to me. It is a 9 hole course and, from what I have been told, members will sometimes play 18 holes and play the 'back 9' from different tees than the front (just for variety). You can post an 18 hole score at this club, but only from a single set of tees. 

 

It would be really interesting to see what happens with indexes at this club at the end of 2023 vs.  the end of 2024. 

 

dave

[hahanice]

Just chiming in here to say I think this whole thing is absurd. In reality maybe it won't really move peoples indexes that much but its stupid either way. Did anyone ask for this or was someone bored in an office cubicle somewhere?

 

We have A LOT of guys at my club who primarily play 9 hole rounds - like 4 or 5 a week. It is also very common for people at my club to play the same 9 twice in a day, for a variety of reasons. Say what you want about the old system, but at the very least it was calculated by the golf shots that I hit. 18 out of the next 20 times I play golf will probably be 9 holes only. This means that 45% of my handicap will be based off of theory, instead of golf that I actually played. 

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, hahanice said:

Just chiming in here to say I think this whole thing is absurd. In reality maybe it won't really move peoples indexes that much but its stupid either way. Did anyone ask for this or was someone bored in an office cubicle somewhere?

 

We have A LOT of guys at my club who primarily play 9 hole rounds - like 4 or 5 a week. It is also very common for people at my club to play the same 9 twice in a day, for a variety of reasons. Say what you want about the old system, but at the very least it was calculated by the golf shots that I hit. 18 out of the next 20 times I play golf will probably be 9 holes only. This means that 45% of my handicap will be based off of theory, instead of golf that I actually played. 

 

I also am wondering just exactly what problem was solved here.  dave

[davep043]

6 hours ago, hahanice said:

Did anyone ask for this or was someone bored in an office cubicle somewhere?

There are lots of players who rarely post 9-hole scores, so they often had a score sitting in limbo for weeks or even months before it counted in their handicap.  Others realistically get tired when playing 18, so combining 9-hole (less fatigued) scores could produce unrealistically low 18-hole handicaps.  The old system would discard holes you actually played, if you played 10 to 13 holes.  There were a number of issues with the previous system.  There are still issues with the revised system.  

Separately, a number of jurisdictions around the world used to use something similar to the new method for treating 9-hole scores.  The entire WHS system has involved compromises for everyone, and in this case the USGA moved towards the rest of the world.  Those of us within the USGA area have probably had the least disruption, as compared to the rest of the golfing world.

[Augster]

This is just another step toward a truly WHS. It’s what they do elsewhere, so the US moved to that.

 

IMO, it’s going to be harder to doctor the cap with this change. My main example is my friend last year that shot 30 (-5) on the nine he played with us. (He was a 4-cap at the time) He never plays 9 holes, but he had a doctor appointment in the afternoon. Shot 30 and said, “Well, I’m never playing another 9 the rest of this year.”  And he didn’t. That 9 never sunk his cap. 
 

With the new WHS rules, his -5 nine would be combined with an “average nine” for his cap. His 2024 posted score would certainly be one of his 8/20. 
 

As a result, he got to sweep the cash for that 9, while also not having his cap affected. That’s not equitable. With the new posting rules, his cap would certainly have gone down. At least a little bit for the next 20 rounds. 
 

For those of you with 27 holes, each combo from each tee should be rated and postable as an 18-hole score. If one wants to play the same 9 twice, it’s easy enough to post a “custom” 18-hole course. Just combine the rating of the 9, and keep the slope the same. 34.6/118, played twice becomes 69.2/118. 

[LCP]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

For those of you with 27 holes, each combo from each tee should be rated and postable as an 18-hole score. If one wants to play the same 9 twice, it’s easy enough to post a “custom” 18-hole course. Just combine the rating of the 9, and keep the slope the same. 34.6/118, played twice becomes 69.2/118. 

Well this is helpful and can be done. 99% of people have never entered a custom course score and never will though.

[davep043]

16 minutes ago, LCP said:

Well this is helpful and can be done. 99% of people have never entered a custom course score and never will though.

Perhaps you're right, but it really is simple.  If people choose not to learn, there's very little anyone can do to change them.  

[Augster]

In the GHIN app it’s POST SCORE-Manually Post Total Score-Yes.