Ground Reaction Forces, Lead side dominant.

[i*windows]

has anyone done any work with ground reaction forces and found that they are lead side dominant? I was doing some work on this and we found that I struck the ball much better and with more speed when I feel that on my backswing I'm immediately loading my lead leg and putting pressure in my lead foot, it feels very unnatural but if it works, it works.

 

I'd be interested if there were other people out there who have had success with this

[Jtgavigan]

Was on Swing Catalyst at Golf Liberty (Matt Blois) a few weeks ago and found this to be true for me. I am a "center post" golfer, but had been playing more like a "rear post" golfer for a long time and loading into my trail side more than I should. I found that getting back left earlier and trying to post up on my lead leg quicker helps clean up my horizontal forces,  produce more torque, and not lose the huge vertical force I generate.  So, not uncommon.

 

Here is the breakdown on my swing: 

 

[ppjn348]

7 hours ago, i*windows said:

has anyone done any work with ground reaction forces and found that they are lead side dominant? I was doing some work on this and we found that I struck the ball much better and with more speed when I feel that on my backswing I'm immediately loading my lead leg and putting pressure in my lead foot, it feels very unnatural but if it works, it works.

 

I'd be interested if there were other people out there who have had success with this

I stumbled upon something similar with Mike Adams and Scott Lynn of Swing Catalyst. I’d love to hear more about it.

Edited March 8 by ppjn348

[ppjn348]

3 hours ago, Jtgavigan said:

Was on Swing Catalyst at Golf Liberty (Matt Blois) a few weeks ago and found this to be true for me. I am a "center post" golfer, but had been playing more like a "rear post" golfer for a long time and loading into my trail side more than I should. I found that getting back left earlier and trying to post up on my lead leg quicker helps clean up my horizontal forces,  produce more torque, and not lose the huge vertical force I generate.  So, not uncommon.

 

Here is the breakdown on my swing: 

 

When “rip the carpet” was said, is that referring to shear forces of the lead leg? Also, in what direction?

[naj959]

I haven't been measured but suspect that I am a front post golfer. I can hit it pretty well feeling like I push into the lead leg almost immediately. But the allure of more speed has me trying to shift more pressure right, brake and re-center. Low point control is not as good so jury is still out.

Edited March 8 by naj959

[MonteScheinblum]

This is my theory after seeing many pressure traces of golfers from all skill levels.

 

Lets put aside beginners and very high handicappers who actually do go left immediately and tilt their spine toward the target.  An actual reverse pivot.

 

Most golfers instinct who were taught to load the right side and shift weight, is to move left way too late and have to have a reverse pivot feel to get left at the end of the backswing.

 

Your feel might be to go left immediately, but you’re not.  This is why it’s important to sequence the club, hands and arms early, so your pelvis rotation and shift can get you left on time. 
 

When I out someone on a pressure mat and say, “In your mind only move the club head to p2 and whip it back there as fast as you can.”

 

Static pressure goes from cerca 50/50 to like 70-30 right. When I have them do it to left arm parallel it’s 80-20ish.  This is why slow backswings ruin sequencing and shift.

 

Then when they do it dynamically, they can “feel” they go left immediately and they get a proper trade and vertical force spikes at right time.  It just takes a while as they are so used to slow smooth tempo and Uber loading the right side.

 

The facts are this.  GRF vector is up and away from the target.  That’s why you see Bubba, Berkshire and the like pull their lead foot back.  The middle letter is Reaction.  How do you get that vector if you push off the right side like many people say to do?.  That correct action force vector is down and forward.  You don’t have time to get the down and forward to begin the downswing to get a proper GRF at the right time.  Guess why nearly every golfer peaks their vertical force too late?

 

I don’t think this is as complicated as rear and front post.  I think it’s more like early and late backswing shift.  Bryson early, Rory late.

 

 

 

Edited March 8 by MonteScheinblum

[Jtgavigan]

1 hour ago, ppjn348 said:

When “rip the carpet” was said, is that referring to shear forces of the lead leg? Also, in what direction?

There is a story from Dr. Scott at Swing Catalyst where Matthew Wolfe,  while in college, tore the carpet off the front force plate because he generated so much torque. We were trying to get me to replicate that feeling.

 

So, that means pushing the lead foot toward the ball and trail foot away from the ball.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, Jtgavigan said:

There is a story from Dr. Scott at Swing Catalyst where Matthew Wolfe,  while in college, tore the carpet off the front force plate because he generated so much torque. We were trying to get me to replicate that feeling.

 

So, that means pushing the lead foot toward the ball and trail foot away from the ball.

Excellent 

[Jtgavigan]

What Monte just said was exactly my issue as a low handicap golfer. I "feel" like I am getting left immediately now,  when in turn, i am actually staying center post, where i should be.

 

I also loaded way right a few times at Matt's place and it made me over drive left and too late. Low point control and direction went bye bye. For far too long (like probably most of my golfing career of 40 years), I stayed loaded into my right side too long. What now feels like "stack and tilt" to me, gets me better sequencing for my swing.

 

I have listened to a lot of Monte's videos and being on swing catalyst and seeing what I personally do, has made some of his ideas click. "OH, THAT'S what he meant!!"

[phizzy30]

Just now, MonteScheinblum said:

This is my theory after seeing many pressure traces of golfers from all skill levels.

 

Lets put aside beginners and very high handicappers who actually do go left immediately and tilt their spine toward the target.  An actual reverse pivot.

 

Most golfers instinct who were taught to load the right side and shift weight, is to move left way too late and have to have a reverse pivot feel to get left at the end of the backswing.

 

Your feel might be to go left immediately, but you’re not.  This is why it’s important to sequence the club, hands and arms early, so your pelvis rotation and shift can get you left on time. 
 

When I out someone on a pressure mat and say, “In your mind only move the club head to p2 and whip it back there as fast as you can.”

 

Static pressure goes from cerca 50/50 to like 70-30 right. When I have them do it to left arm parallel it’s 80-20ish.  This is why slow backswings ruin sequencing and shift.

 

Then when they do it dynamically, they can “feel” they go left immediately and they get a proper trade and vertical force spikes at right time.  It just takes a while as they are so used to slow smooth tempo and Uber loading the right side.

 

The facts are this.  GRF vector is up and away from the target.  That’s why you see Bubba, Berkshire and the like pull their lead foot back.  The middle letter is Reaction.  How do you get that vector if you push off the right side like many people say to do?.  That correct action force vector is down and forward.  You don’t have time to get the down and forward to begin the downswing to get a proper GRF at the right time.  Guess why nearly every golfer peaks their vertical force too late?

 

I don’t think this is as complicated as rear and front post.  I think it’s more like early and late backswing shift.  Bryson early, Rory late.

 

 

 

When you say down and forward, are you referring to the sequencing of the squat move/weight shift?  

[MonteScheinblum]

14 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

When you say down and forward, are you referring to the sequencing of the squat move/weight shift?  

I probably used the term squat in the past, but I don’t like it because the connotation makes people go down too much.  Center of pelvis only goes down an inch or so, but most golfers have it stay level or go up, so it’s a big difference.

[MonteScheinblum]

26 minutes ago, Jtgavigan said:

What Monte just said was exactly my issue as a low handicap golfer. I "feel" like I am getting left immediately now,  when in turn, i am actually staying center post, where i should be.

 

I also loaded way right a few times at Matt's place and it made me over drive left and too late. Low point control and direction went bye bye. For far too long (like probably most of my golfing career of 40 years), I stayed loaded into my right side too long. What now feels like "stack and tilt" to me, gets me better sequencing for my swing.

 

I have listened to a lot of Monte's videos and being on swing catalyst and seeing what I personally do, has made some of his ideas click. "OH, THAT'S what he meant!!"

Every time I tell someone to do this, the first words out if their mouth are reverse pivot or SnT.

 

However, when their club head speed goes up 5 or even 10% with less effort, they don’t care if it looks like Dorf on Golf.

 

Watching the look on people’s face when the referees pivot feel changes them from stick on the right side and late vertical force application to a proper dynamic shift and vertical force in crewing and happening on time is precious.

 

Like holding lag, swinging to right field and slow smooth tempo, shifting weight and  loading the trail side at the top is an antiquated concept.

 

People have two choices.  Admit to themselves they’ve been doing and teaching the wrong thing for decades, or push back.  Far too many select choice 2.  Choice 1 is a hard pill.  I swallowed it around 15 years ago.  The good news is when you swallow the big horse pill and give in to new information, the process serves a bunch of tiny ones as you are exposed to new info.

 

 

[Laaandry]

19 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Every time I tell someone to do this, the first words out if their mouth are reverse pivot or SnT.

 

This actually clarifies/confirms some things really well for me. I used two analog weight scales and went through different swing positions and realized at the top I was always mostly on my trail side. Using the scale as feedback, I started just spiking my trail side to start for what felt like an instant--almost akin to a sprinter pushing off a starting block sideways. My driver clubhead speed shot way up.

 

Doing so consistently in a controlled round is another thing, but I too was worried about being too reverse pivoted until reading your replies.

Edited March 8 by Laaandry

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, Laaandry said:

 

This actually clarifies/confirms some things really well for me. I used two analog weight scales and went through different swing positions and realized at the top I was always mostly on my trail side. Using the scale as feedback, I started just spiking my trail side to start for what felt like an instant--almost akin to a sprinter pushing off a starting block sideways. My driver clubhead speed shot way up.

 

Doing so consistently in a controlled round is another thing, but I too was worried about being too reverse pivoted until reading your replies.

Great analogy

[Sean124]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Most golfers instinct who were taught to load the right side and shift weight, is to move left way too late and have to have a reverse pivot feel to get left at the end of the backswing.

 

 

 

This sounds familiar  😂

[i*windows]

1 hour ago, Laaandry said:

 

This actually clarifies/confirms some things really well for me. I used two analog weight scales and went through different swing positions and realized at the top I was always mostly on my trail side. Using the scale as feedback, I started just spiking my trail side to start for what felt like an instant--almost akin to a sprinter pushing off a starting block sideways. My driver clubhead speed shot way up.

 

Doing so consistently in a controlled round is another thing, but I too was worried about being too reverse pivoted until reading your replies.

That's very cool and similar to what I'm feelin. I have a fast tempo and it feels like a micro second right then hard as hell down left and push up and back. The jump in ball speed and quality of contact is frankly astonishing, when combined with the pump thing I do is really amazing and I just wish I learnt this 20 years ago. But as they say you live and learn 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I probably used the term squat in the past, but I don’t like it because the connotation makes people go down too much.  Center of pelvis only goes down an inch or so, but most golfers have it stay level or go up, so it’s a big difference.

 

Yeah, I am careful here as I've had students actually lower straight down. I tend to say "fall onto the lead leg" or something while demonstrating the specific thing, or better yet have them mimic me and when they do it correctly, ask them what that felt like and then keep saying that. I also make sure they understand what it looks like, what the mechanics actually are, as feel drift is a very real thing.

 

[Jtgavigan]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Every time I tell someone to do this, the first words out if their mouth are reverse pivot or SnT.

 

However, when their club head speed goes up 5 or even 10% with less effort, they don’t care if it looks like Dorf on Golf.

 

Watching the look on people’s face when the referees pivot feel changes them from stick on the right side and late vertical force application to a proper dynamic shift and vertical force in crewing and happening on time is precious.

 

Like holding lag, swinging to right field and slow smooth tempo, shifting weight and  loading the trail side at the top is an antiquated concept.

 

People have two choices.  Admit to themselves they’ve been doing and teaching the wrong thing for decades, or push back.  Far too many select choice 2.  Choice 1 is a hard pill.  I swallowed it around 15 years ago.  The good news is when you swallow the big horse pill and give in to new information, the process serves a bunch of tiny ones as you are exposed to new info.

 

 

It wasn't that I didnt trust or believe what you were saying, I just THOUGHT I was doing it. I did re-center right at the top of my swing, but my left leg always straightened well after impact and I knew it needed to happen sooner. Until working with Matt so that I could see the video AND the data at the same time, along with the "feel" I just had, could I really put it all together. I have to admit, this still feels awkward, and I played ghastly today, because it has changed some of my swing dynamics and I don't know what to do with it yet. I have really only been hitting into a net using this technique for about a week.

 

I bladed a few wedges today. Pretty sure the ball position was too far back. I noticed that my iron AoA was steeper when I did things correctly at Matt's place (maybe 6° down with a 7i instead of 4°), but the low point was now further forward. I was hitting the middle of the ball while still swinging down on it. I hit one shot that felt bladed that was 4° down. I thought I was flipping it and hitting up. That was a revelation. Just everything has changed and not sure how to do things consistently yet. I hit some really good shots today and missed big too a few times because I am just not sure what I am doing yet.

[PracticeSwinger]

20 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The facts are this.  GRF vector is up and away from the target.  That’s why you see Bubba, Berkshire and the like pull their lead foot back.  The middle letter is Reaction.  How do you get that vector if you push off the right side like many people say to do?.  That correct action force vector is down and forward.  You don’t have time to get the down and forward to begin the downswing to get a proper GRF at the right time.  Guess why nearly every golfer peaks their vertical force too late?

 

I don’t think this is as complicated as rear and front post.  I think it’s more like early and late backswing shift.  Bryson early, Rory late.

Golden and on your last part - do you think that’s why some elite swings seem like ‘effortless’ power; Scott, Knapp, Aberg… while others look ‘jerkier’ and ‘forced’; Bryson, JT, Min Woo… (not sure I got the best examples on top of my head) i.e. related to how they move in their backswing to load the lead side early

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, PracticeSwinger said:

Golden and on your last part - do you think that’s why some elite swings seem like ‘effortless’ power; Scott, Knapp, Aberg… while others look ‘jerkier’ and ‘forced’; Bryson, JT, Min Woo… (not sure I got the best examples on top of my head) i.e. related to how they move in their backswing to load the lead side early

Maybe, I never cared for the “effortless” debate.

[drfrankenstein]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:20 AM, i*windows said:

has anyone done any work with ground reaction forces and found that they are lead side dominant? I was doing some work on this and we found that I struck the ball much better and with more speed when I feel that on my backswing I'm immediately loading my lead leg and putting pressure in my lead foot, it feels very unnatural but if it works, it works.

 

I'd be interested if there were other people out there who have had success with this

 

I am currently debating and struggling with the same thing myself. I was characterized as a center/rear post golfer. I am right handed but am left leg and left eye dominant. What I've started to realize is I also hit the ball much better using the same feel and you - focusing on getting pressure on my dominant/lead leg as soon as possible. I think this plays to my strength and is also better technique as Monte described above. Although I don't want to doubt what the coach had told me about my post tendency - the other possibility is maybe I was turning wrong the entire time? I know I was shifting a lot to the trail side and sliding back using a large amount of side bend to get the club in the slot, which caused a significant in to out path. Ball striking seems much easier keeping pressure on my lead foot through most of the swing. Any comments or suggestions would be helpful. 

[skim4]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:20 AM, i*windows said:

has anyone done any work with ground reaction forces and found that they are lead side dominant? I was doing some work on this and we found that I struck the ball much better and with more speed when I feel that on my backswing I'm immediately loading my lead leg and putting pressure in my lead foot, it feels very unnatural but if it works, it works.

 

I'd be interested if there were other people out there who have had success with this

Is lead side dominant the same as front post? I did a pressure plate over the weekend and was characterized as mid/ front post. The instructor told me I wasn't loading my trail leg properly. So the pressure trace never got to my backfoot. 

 

He told me to really pressure, push with the trail leg almost immediately in the backswing. My CHS is up 5 to 10 and my body/ hips seems to move better. I look more stable throughout the swing.

My vertical force was like a 1.75 but my two other forces were really bad he said. 

[drfrankenstein]

9 hours ago, skim4 said:

Is lead side dominant the same as front post? I did a pressure plate over the weekend and was characterized as mid/ front post. The instructor told me I wasn't loading my trail leg properly. So the pressure trace never got to my backfoot. 

 

He told me to really pressure, push with the trail leg almost immediately in the backswing. My CHS is up 5 to 10 and my body/ hips seems to move better. I look more stable throughout the swing.

My vertical force was like a 1.75 but my two other forces were really bad he said. 

I don’t think they are the same but it seems it would be a problem if you were a right handed front post golfer and right leg dominant (or vice versa) as you aren’t using your strongest leg to generate the dominant force. Although Dr Lynn says it all exists as a spectrum…

[Nels55]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:59 PM, drfrankenstein said:

I don’t think they are the same but it seems it would be a problem if you were a right handed front post golfer and right leg dominant (or vice versa) as you aren’t using your strongest leg to generate the dominant force. Although Dr Lynn says it all exists as a spectrum…

I am right handed and right leg dominant but I jump off of my left leg and reach with my right hand if I want to try to get as high as I can.  LOL not very high but I would think that those of us who like to jump off of the lead leg would do okay as front post?  Sort of makes sense does it not?

[TheDeanAbides]

Stand and throw a ball over and over as hard as you can but with your focus on your feet. This is how I eventually understood how quickly the pressure moved to the front foot and how much torque is produced if we stop thinking of golf in terms of backswing followed by downswing. 

[MonteScheinblum]

This debate and debates on all movements in the swing comes down to this.

 

You have two choices.

 

1.  Keep a closed mind to new ideas that don’t make sense to you and never adapt new motions that feel weird and stay in your current lot.  Then as you get older, your distance and skill level will deteriorate quickly.

 

2.  Open up and create the possibility you can get better. 

[Jimjam651]

I had some lessons with Steve Furlonger in the UK a while ago and one of my issues was not getting in to / pressuring my lead side early enough in the back swing. 

 

The feel we worked on was pushing the ground away from me down and to the right* (right handed golfer) with my trail foot at around hip height in the back swing which I found helped. 

 

*This wasn't a gentle push, I was really trying to get the turf moving down and away to my right hard. 

 

He is a really good follow on instagram actually if you're interested in ground forces, breaks it down pretty well for idiots like me! 

[i*windows]

On 3/27/2024 at 5:21 PM, skim4 said:

Is lead side dominant the same as front post? I did a pressure plate over the weekend and was characterized as mid/ front post. The instructor told me I wasn't loading my trail leg properly. So the pressure trace never got to my backfoot. 

 

He told me to really pressure, push with the trail leg almost immediately in the backswing. My CHS is up 5 to 10 and my body/ hips seems to move better. I look more stable throughout the swing.

My vertical force was like a 1.75 but my two other forces were really bad he said. 

I'm not 100% sure on the correct terminology but sounds so similar 

[vernon]

Need to try this today.

 

[tippethor]

On 3/8/2024 at 12:37 PM, Jtgavigan said:

Was on Swing Catalyst at Golf Liberty (Matt Blois) a few weeks ago and found this to be true for me. I am a "center post" golfer, but had been playing more like a "rear post" golfer for a long time and loading into my trail side more than I should. I found that getting back left earlier and trying to post up on my lead leg quicker helps clean up my horizontal forces,  produce more torque, and not lose the huge vertical force I generate.  So, not uncommon.

 

 

It was a good increase in SS for your 7 iron. Can i ask what your driving swingspeed is?