Snapped Shaft - Whose Responsibility?

[rooski]

Not that anybody else needs to say what's already been said, but in transactions the seller takes on all reasonable responsibility. If you buy something from a store it's their obligation that it works correctly and is what you paid for, this similarly trickles down to person to person transactions.

 

Unless something miraculous happens, I'm going to have to refund a $500 SIK putter I sold on WRX tomorrow morning because USPS lost the package. Luckily I did get insurance on it but its my obligation as the seller to make the buyer whole.

Edited March 15 by rooski

[mktrout]

buyer should be refunded a 100% of what they paid without question. Seller needs to file a claim. With that being said, buyer is an idiot for paying F&F so realistically they can't do anything about it all but hope the seller does the right thing.

Edited March 15 by mktrout

[ambro]

Update: Seller refunded me the amount paid minus $20. This was the offer I made to him and agreed to so I'm satisfied with it at this point.

 

I understood the risk I accepted by going F&F, and knew no extra insurance was purchased so wanted to share the burden with seller at least a little bit. That extra $20 is insignificant in my opinion.

 

Thanks everyone for the overwhelming responses. Not sure the seller would have refunded without this community support but I will not be mentioning the other party. Hopefully they've read this thread and treat this as a lesson learned for future transactions. Both in terms of how to ship a shaft/club and how to handle a lost or broken item as the seller.

[ambro]

9 hours ago, mktrout said:

buyer should be refunded a 100% of what they paid without question. Seller needs to file a claim. With that being said, buyer is an idiot for paying F&F so realistically they can't do anything about it all but hope the seller does the right thing.

 

Not sure I deserve to be called an idiot, but thanks 😂

 

I've stated I understood and accepted the risk by going with F&F. Never once complained about that aspect of it or felt I was entitled to anything in that regard.

 

This post was more a question of what's the right thing to do, in hope that I could show the seller and get him to do the right thing. Shouldn't have had to come to this in my opinion but it worked out in the end.

[Bad9]

7 minutes ago, ambro said:

 

Not sure I deserve to be called an idiot, but thanks 😂

 

I've stated I understood and accepted the risk by going with F&F. Never once complained about that aspect of it or felt I was entitled to anything in that regard.

 

This post was more a question of what's the right thing to do, in hope that I could show the seller and get him to do the right thing. Shouldn't have had to come to this in my opinion but it worked out in the end.

 

I'm happy you have a resolution satisfactory to you but you really should post his forum name to protect the rest of us from dealing with someone like this.

 

Edit: you should also leave feedback that at least outlines what happened. I would leave a negative but you obviously don't feel the same but you should gove something

Edited March 15 by Bad9

[ambro]

22 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

I'm happy you have a resolution satisfactory to you but you really should post his forum name to protect the rest of us from dealing with someone like this.

 

Edit: you should also leave feedback that at least outlines what happened. I would leave a negative but you obviously don't feel the same but you should gove something

 

If I can leave a neutral feedback I will. Don't think negative is warranted because ultimately I did get the refund I agreed to. And I definitely don't think positive is deserved.

 

I don't think as a seller he needs to be avoided. It seemed to me that he's not encountered this kind of situation previously so wasn't entirely sure of the proper way to handle it. Now that he's been through this experience I hope in the future he would act accordingly right away.

 

Appreciate your opinion.

[Bad9]

38 minutes ago, ambro said:

 

If I can leave a neutral feedback I will. Don't think negative is warranted because ultimately I did get the refund I agreed to. And I definitely don't think positive is deserved.

 

I don't think as a seller he needs to be avoided. It seemed to me that he's not encountered this kind of situation previously so wasn't entirely sure of the proper way to handle it. Now that he's been through this experience I hope in the future he would act accordingly right away.

 

Appreciate your opinion.

Neutral is an option

[jacob7071]

I think Paypal and UPS should split the money - to remind buyer and seller how ridiculous they're being.

 

To the buyer:  If the seller wants to net $180, just send $185 G&S.  I'm all for saving a buck, but don't give up all your protection for $5. If $5 is going to make a difference, you have no business spending $180 on a piece of a golf club.

 

To the seller:  If you chose the shipper, paid for a shipping label and packed it yourself, then the shaft is yours until it gets to the buyer in the condition you described.  The risk is on you during transit.  If you don't want to take that risk, pay the couple of bucks for insurance. 

[Vespar]

wow I can't even begin to understand the multiple mistakes by both buyer and seller. But as far as the broken shafts goes a claim has to be made to UPS first and foremost. Look for a possible $100 refund if you are lucky. They photograph everything, so be prepared that the shipment was not properly packaged.  If they do refund the $100 it will take about 3-5 weeks. 

 

UPS has a lot of old school conveyers, slides in an otherwise way over crowded & old facilities due to the volume prior to covid. They really havn't updated or expended from these buildings and centers. They have a limited number of trucks due to  limited docks on these old facilities, they can't expand anymore so they stuff the trucks.

 

My suggestion and successes regarding shipping is either use Fedex or USPS.

 

I've shipped 1000s and 1000s of item with USPS and they have never been lost, a couple of close calls but never lost. And 99% arrive on time or earlier. 

 

I use fedex exclusively when ever possible and try to avoid UPS, price is often the same or  cheaper. Never had a problem

 

 

 

 

[ambro]

46 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

If the seller wants to net $180, just send $185 G&S.  I'm all for saving a buck, but don't give up all your protection for $5. If $5 is going to make a difference, you have no business spending $180 on a piece of a golf club.

 

I agree, it wasn't well thought out on my end and $5 definitely makes no difference. Tbh, even the $180 is largely insignificant in the grand scheme of how much I spend on golf annually. That's why I was willing to accept risks associated with F&F. I've done maybe 3 total F&F transactions like this over the years, and only when the other party brings up the idea and has a well documented reputation. Never had issues and I've been on both buying and selling ends, although this will certainly be the last time I entertain the idea (from either side).

 

This is also why I was willing to accept less than what I paid for a refund. There were mistakes made by both parties so I don't feel entitled to getting the full amount back. I definitely had a role in putting myself in this situation.

 

Thanks again to you and everyone for your inputs. I hope this serves as another lesson learned to the broader community, and not only myself (and hopefully the seller).

[Tzoid]

This is a bad situation for both parties. Many years ago I bought a GD AD-DI 6 shaft from another member and he shipped the shaft in a cardboard tube with end caps. USPS delivered an "EMPTY" cardboard tube with no end caps and left it at my garage door. I was livid that the USPS person would deliver an obviously empty bent up card board tube and I drove to the main post office in my town. They did zero and told me to contact the shipper/ seller. The WRX member was upset and immediately refunded my money and opened a claim with USPS.   That is what should happen in this case in my opinion.   

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

I’m never gonna understand why people cut corners to save a few bucks. As a seller I’d rather buy extra insurance to protect both sides at a cost of a few bucks. In the end the seller will end up losing much more just to save a few bucks. I’ve had to file multiple insurance claims already this year due to damage from shipping. 

[BYK]

18 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I’m never gonna understand why people cut corners to save a few bucks. As a seller I’d rather buy extra insurance to protect both sides at a cost of a few bucks. In the end the seller will end up losing much more just to save a few bucks. I’ve had to file multiple insurance claims already this year due to damage from shipping. 

I guess I'm confused about the insurance

 

it seems that half the people are saying buy insurance as it's a good idea, but the other half are saying the insurance is worthless as the carriers don't honor it, or its a pain in the butt to get them to honor it.

 

Sounds like you had no issues?

[jblough99]

17 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I’m never gonna understand why people cut corners to save a few bucks. As a seller I’d rather buy extra insurance to protect both sides at a cost of a few bucks. In the end the seller will end up losing much more just to save a few bucks. I’ve had to file multiple insurance claims already this year due to damage from shipping. 

You can buy all the insurance you want, this particular situation would be denied the insurance claim due to insufficient/improper packaging.  I can’t comprehend anyone thinking that shaft would survive in a box that size with no packaging inside the box.  100% the seller’s negligence.

[jblough99]

2 minutes ago, BYK said:

I guess I'm confused about the insurance

 

it seems that half the people are saying buy insurance as it's a good idea, but the other half are saying the insurance is worthless as the carriers don't honor it, or its a pain in the butt to get them to honor it.

 

Sounds like you had no issues?

People assume if they buy insurance they are off the hook for properly packaging an item.  If improper packaging is used, insurance is typically denied.  
 

I work for UPS and it’s crazy some of the stuff I see.  Just yesterday I delivered 2 small automotive lights of some sort, the lights were wrapped in paper towels and put in a ziplock bag, the label was then placed on the ziplock bag, that’s it.  And to make it even worse, this came from an Amazon seller!

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

23 minutes ago, BYK said:

I guess I'm confused about the insurance

 

it seems that half the people are saying buy insurance as it's a good idea, but the other half are saying the insurance is worthless as the carriers don't honor it, or its a pain in the butt to get them to honor it.

 

Sounds like you had no issues?

It’s definitely a process. I alway keep the receipt till I get confirmation from the buyer it was received in the same condition I sent it out. They don’t ever tell you to keep the receipt. And that’s where a lot of people will get screwed over. 
 

As long as you keep the receipts as your due diligence. The carrier wil do there due diligence. Its fairly smooth process. Just takes time is the downside. 
 

Also did not know about the poor packaging the insurance will be denied. Not that I package items poorly. 

Edited March 16 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[jacob7071]

On 3/16/2024 at 10:00 AM, BYK said:

I guess I'm confused about the insurance

 

it seems that half the people are saying buy insurance as it's a good idea, but the other half are saying the insurance is worthless as the carriers don't honor it, or its a pain in the butt to get them to honor it.

 

Sounds like you had no issues?

On 3/16/2024 at 10:07 AM, jblough99 said:

People assume if they buy insurance they are off the hook for properly packaging an item.  If improper packaging is used, insurance is typically denied.  
 

I work for UPS and it’s crazy some of the stuff I see.  Just yesterday I delivered 2 small automotive lights of some sort, the lights were wrapped in paper towels and put in a ziplock bag, the label was then placed on the ziplock bag, that’s it.  And to make it even worse, this came from an Amazon seller!

 

While I agree items should be properly packaged, it wouldn't surprise me if the carriers' (or more specifically, UPS's) first step in dealing with any broken item is to first claim improper packaging by the sender.  I've had one item damaged by a carrier - a shaft I sold on ebay.  When I dropped it at UPS, the tube was all in one piece with both end caps secured.  The pictures below show wat it looked like when the buyer received it.  All of the tape was added by UPS after the shipping tube and shaft broke, and with both pieces of shaft at one end of the tube, it was able to bend about 60 degrees before the tape held it back from bending more.  UPS initially denied my claim due to improper packaging.  I asked, "if your handling did this to the shipping tube, what amount of packaging would've protected the contents of the tube?"  

 

They reversed their decision and approved the claim within 24 hrs "as a one-time courtesy" they said.  Then they fat-fingered my address and sent a check to an address that doesn't exist, then made me wait 8 weeks to get a stop payment on a check (when we all know it only takes a few minutes to process a stop payment and verify the funds have not cleared), then made me wait 2 more weeks to get a new check issued.  I shipped the item on July 3, and had my insurance check in my hand on Oct 20, so I can see why some would claim carriers don't honor their insurance.  It's definitely a pain int he butt to get them to honor it.

 

I certainly wouldn't ship automotive lights in a ziplock bag, but if it's a problem, I wonder why UPS would even accept it for shipment.  

 

 

 

[Masterhacker]

skipped over all the comments to give an unbiased opinion.  I've sold hundreds of things on ebay over the years and through shop orders. 

 

1 - the whole friends and family thing is really to protect from scams and frauds.  If you know the person and consider him your friend (as in you trust him) that's what it's used for.  Now if you get burnt doing it, it's completely your fault. I personally never do this as a buyer or seller unless I personally know the individual.   

 

2 -  As a seller, it is my responsibility to get the purchased item to the buyer.  As a seller, you figure your shipping cost, insurance, pp fees, etc. in when you're agreeing to a price.  If the seller doesn't purchase insurance to ship, that's the risks that the seller is taking and therefore he/she assumes responsibility for the merchandise.  

 

3 - Once a buyer purchases the item, the buyer should expect the item to be delivered as described.  

 

The seller of the shaft bares the burden of insuring the shaft to ensure that it gets to the buyer.  The seller should refund the money the buyer paid for the shaft and recoup the insurance money from the shipping provider.  If this transaction would have been a goods and services transaction, the money would have been refunded to the buyer because the item didn't arrive in it's described condition.  

[jefftomahawk]

Just went through the same crap with usps, my buyer was a good sport, shaft snapped, I had it insured for 200$, just got the letter in the mail, to take packaging, shaft to local post office, the shaft was received two weeks ago, and he threw out the box, but had many photos of before shipping and received, they denied the claim at the post office, the bite was my shipment was packed with shipping wrapping, a headcover on both ends, and as my wife said, could you use a bit more shipping tape on the outside, as I used almost half the roll.

the box was received as an accordion 

 

so why insure, if you never can win the claim 

[JadenGolfWRX12]

9 hours ago, jefftomahawk said:

Just went through the same crap with usps, my buyer was a good sport, shaft snapped, I had it insured for 200$, just got the letter in the mail, to take packaging, shaft to local post office, the shaft was received two weeks ago, and he threw out the box, but had many photos of before shipping and received, they denied the claim at the post office, the bite was my shipment was packed with shipping wrapping, a headcover on both ends, and as my wife said, could you use a bit more shipping tape on the outside, as I used almost half the roll.

the box was received as an accordion 

 

so why insure, if you never can win the claim 

you have to call and keep pestering

[Greenie]

On 3/14/2024 at 7:31 PM, brew4eagle said:

The counter argument is UPS comes with $100 insurance automatically, so you'll certainly save $ in the long run by not purchasing insurance on smaller ticket items (around $350 or less), ASSUMING you put a little effort into good packaging. 

 

Edit- I've shipped A LOT of items and never purchase insurance and have never had an issue, so I've saved hundreds (maybe thousands) of $.

 

I used to be a regular seller on Ebay. I read an article about shipping and if you should get insurance or not. The article recommended not getting insurance but taking the cost of the insurance if you had purchased it and putting that amount in a shipping account fund. As you put the cost of insurance in your fund you build up cash to pay out of if an item ever gets damaged or lost. 

 

I never had to use the fund and I still have a surplus of money in that account from years ago.

 

I am not sure if that idea pans out anymore. From my recent experiences in the last few years the chances of a damaged or lost package is much greater now.

 

I had two items I purchased in Feb. lost in the mail and I had to get Ebay involved to get refunds from those sellers. The one item the tracking still says " your item is delayed but still on it's way" from Feb. 21st. The seller didn't  want to refund my money because it is still on it's way. lol

[RosePark]

Just had this happen to me a couple of weeks ago. Shipped a shaft via UPS in a PVC pipe. Seller received the package with a big crease in the pipe and the shaft snapped in half. He sent me pics upon receipt of the package. I sent him a full refund. Filed an online claim with UPS (using pics that the buyer sent me) that night  and received the insurance claim in my account (used direct deposit as form of payment) in less than 48 hours. Process was pretty smooth, just sucked that the buyer missed out on a nice shaft.

[James Joseph]

Seller should offer full refund or pay for insurnace on the whole amount. Buyer should never have to wait on insurance. That’s sellers job . 

[jlevitt9]

On 4/16/2024 at 9:42 AM, RosePark said:

Just had this happen to me a couple of weeks ago. Shipped a shaft via UPS in a PVC pipe. Seller received the package with a big crease in the pipe and the shaft snapped in half. He sent me pics upon receipt of the package. I sent him a full refund. Filed an online claim with UPS (using pics that the buyer sent me) that night  and received the insurance claim in my account (used direct deposit as form of payment) in less than 48 hours. Process was pretty smooth, just sucked that the buyer missed out on a nice shaft.

I want to know how a shaft in a PVC pipe snapped. 

[dcmidnight]

I stopped reading when I read you paid by F&F.