More blatherings from Isaacbm about handicap...

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355087905' post='6042957']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355078489' post='6042253']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

i dont think most wrxers realize how good the best players in the world are, ive seen too many posts that suggest otherwise.
[/quote]

It's silly to argue about, but I've also seen plenty of people who worship pros as Gods. Most of us are realists who are in the middle, it's just that the extremes are the ones that stand out, similar to the guys claiming 300+ carry averages.
[/quote]

Yup, you're right, there are extremists on both sides.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355100919' post='6043791']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355087905' post='6042957']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355078489' post='6042253']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

i dont think most wrxers realize how good the best players in the world are, ive seen too many posts that suggest otherwise.
[/quote]

It's silly to argue about, but I've also seen plenty of people who worship pros as Gods. Most of us are realists who are in the middle, it's just that the extremes are the ones that stand out, similar to the guys claiming 300+ carry averages.
[/quote]

Yup, you're right, there are extremists on both sides.
[/quote]

Never understood the worship the athlete thing, or any celebrity for that matter. However, I do like my cat.

[cardoustie]

Sean
Is that your cat in you avatar and if so are you based in Vegas?

[Sean2]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1355106301' post='6044313']
Sean
Is that your cat in you avatar and if so are you based in Vegas?
[/quote]

Ha! That IS my favorite cat Cardoustie, but my actual cat is a tad smaller.

[307golf]

I played in a Wyoming tournament with a good college golfer about 5 years ago. He was tearing it up in Div 3 golf, but got slapped around a little by guys who sell cars or insurance for a living. 4 years later he wins the PGA.

Sounds a little like the Zach Johnson story.

Predicting future performance is tricky. But that's the beauty of it. That's why they/we play the game.

If we already knew the result, who'd be left to play???

[isaacbm]

[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1355100481' post='6043765']
[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1355083887' post='6042713']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

100% correct.
[/quote]

101% correct
[/quote]

Guys, my point is not that your average player doesn't think that the tour pros are very good. It's that a lot of mid handicap golfers think that the plus handicap golfers at their clubs are close to the same level as the guys on tour.

Again, I'm not saying everyone thinks something, I'm just saying that over the years I've run into so many players that think I'm stupid for not chasing the dream still. I've lost count of how many people have dropped their jaws while playing with me or watching me hit balls.

Most people don't really know what they're looking at. They don't know what to look for because they don't have the frame of reference to compare a plus club golfer to a tour pro. Maybe they have no tourney experience. Or maybe they've never been to a tour event. Or maybe they have and they walk away thinking "well that really didn't impress me that much."

You know what's the most impressive thing to me about top tour pros? It's how unimpressive they make the whole thing look. Yet some how at the end of the day, they've posted 69 and really haven't done anything worth mentioning.

Again, if you haven't run into as many delusional or misinformed people as I have then I guess we can just agree to disagree. But I hear it on a daily basis.

[mshills]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355116998' post='6045063']
You know what's the most impressive thing to me about top tour pros? It's how unimpressive they make the whole thing look. Yet some how at the end of the day, they've posted 69 and really haven't done anything worth mentioning.
[/quote]

That's it right there. That and the ability to play (by a tour pro's standard) horrible golf and still eke out a 71 or 72. that by rights should be 75 or worse.

[WVP]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1354854585' post='6030881']
Those numbers are cargo shorts backwards hat MJ good!

Why is that middle aged 12 handicaps think they have a shot at the Sr. Tour??? I've run into several over the last few years.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's only Fred Couples, Vijay (soon), Kenny Perry, etc. No big deal there!

That's like me as a 30 year old telling myself I could beat Nick Watney, Snedeker, Dufner and others about my age in 20 years.

[golfortennis]

I can relate to this a bit from the "middle" of the spectrum. I'll travel and play away courses, a lot of times as a single, so I will get paired up with all manner of players. 75% of them are "really impressed" with my game, wished they could do that, etc. "Man you hit it a mile." Compared to them, maybe. But I'm not in the championship flight at my golf club yet, and didn't make it out of qualifying in my first mid-am attempt in Ontario. So no I'm really not nearly as good as you think I am.

Having said that, I did get paired with a couple of mini tour pros once. Early 20s, been playing most of their lives compared to me, who is 20 years out of high school, didn't pick up a club until then, and have had a job that wasn't playing golf. They putted much better than I did, on bermuda greens that I see twice a year, and they play on half the year. Beyond that, I didn't see much that was jaw dropping. And it wasn't from being arrogant about my abilities. I think I can move myself on the scale, but I know where I stand. I've played with +s, one who was a quarterfinalist in the Canadian Am back when they still had the match play. These guys weren't better than them. I think a lot of the mini tours and the high level amateur golf players are interchangeable, particularly if the ams didn't have day jobs. Once you start getting to Hooters tour then you really start to see the separation though I think.

I think alot of it depends on what your frame of reference is. Guys who miss cuts at provincial/state mid-ams are a long way from playing for a paycheck. Guys who contend at national championships....I think that gap is a lot narrower than people might be trying to imply here. The other thing is just how few spots there are relative to the number of players. It's similar to basketball, except that hoops disproportionately favors height coupled with athletic ability. I think something like 4% of all American men are 6'2" or taller, yet that is almost a minimum to make a college, much less professional roster. The wow factor is obvious in hoops from a skill perspective, not so much in golf. The differences in golf are much more subtle.

There is a big difference in a lot of ways, but it depends on what pools of golfers you are comparing.

[golfortennis]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1355147665' post='6045649']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1354854585' post='6030881']
Those numbers are cargo shorts backwards hat MJ good!

Why is that middle aged 12 handicaps think they have a shot at the Sr. Tour??? I've run into several over the last few years.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's only Fred Couples, Vijay (soon), Kenny Perry, etc. No big deal there!

That's like me as a 30 year old telling myself I could beat Nick Watney, Snedeker, Dufner and others about my age in 20 years.
[/quote]

So Larry Laoretti was an idiot for thinking he could beat Nicklaus when they reached senior age?

[WVP]

Had to look it up but Laoretti wasn't exactly the type being discussed. He was a PGA pro who played in majors already.

[Chief Illiniwek]

Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.

[RRFireblade]

I don't think most of the people that tell a good player he should go pro , are really being terribly serious or putting nearly this much thought into it.



As for the Dreamers.....let 'em dream. Most of them aren't terribly serious about it either. Besides....There's enough heartbreak in real life already , I don't have any deep seeded personal need to go out on a mission to "set them straight".....let 'em dream.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355152507' post='6045939']
Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.
[/quote]

Even those being paid to "differentiate" get fooled per

Per Tom Brady being the 6th QB, 199th overall pick in the draft.

It happens in all sports. Golf has its share of "cant misses" who bomb just like any other sport.

You just don't know what is going to happen, how a persons mind will work and make decisions/execute at the highest levels and under the gun.

[Obee]

Here's another way to put it in perspective:

If you can consistently contend in -- and occasionally or frequently win -- at either the regional or national amateur level, then you are close to having what it takes to play the game for a living. In my opinion, there's really no better way to determine whether someone is ready to play professional golf. It's by no means a guarantee, but it's a strong indicator.

Here's just one example: Bob Nyjurr (Had to misspell his last name because the website auto correct wouldn't allow me to post it because it's spelled almost like "the N-word" LOL!!!) was a top Northern California amateur for many years. He contended in and/or won many NorCal mid-amateur and amateur tournaments. Rarely would he play a tournament where he wasn't in the top 10, and he won quite a few tournaments. He turned pro at 48 or 49, and is now 53. Last year he Monday qualified for five different Champions Tour events and won $~16,000. In 2010, he Mondya qualified for two events and won ~$20,000. If it were easier for a non-PGA Tour player to get on and stay on the Champions Tour, he would win significantly more $$$.

He was a career amateur, and he decided to turn pro when he was in his late 40's and "give the Senior Tour a shot." Before he did so, though, he was one of the top 30 or 40 golfers in all of California, which has 1 out of 8 golfers in the entire country!! At the time, he was probably a +2.5 to +3.5 index most months.

If you want to "take a shot at the Senior Tour," you should be in the same range as an amateur player before you quite your day job.... :-)

[ptjn1201]

I remember reading an article ages ago about trying to make it on the senior tour, and it said that if you haven't won your state amateur championship, or come really close, you probably don't have a chance. This was the time of Laoretti and Walt Zembriski. People didn't remember that Walt knocked around the tour a few years 15-20 years earlier before heavy TV coverage and the media played up his ironworker past. But Zembriski had won his state amateur title and the Ike in NY, had played mini-tours and was known in the region. And that was when it was easier to get out on the senior tour -- now it's almost impossible.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355152507' post='6045939']
Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.
[/quote]

Well I think you're right. It is hard to spot in any sport. The only way to really know is see what a player can do at high level tournament golf.

I do agree that any am that can continually place in the top 5 has the necessary ability to at least try to test their game at the next level. But I'm talking about players that are already proven to a certain extent.

My point continues to be that a player that simply has a low handicap at their club is not the same as a guy that can prove that ability at a tournament level.

I guess I'm just talking in circles now. As I said in the beginning of this thread, it's winter in Calgary and watching QSchool got me all nostalgic.

It just still amazes me how I can be hitting balls into a wall at an indoor dome and have a couple guys in the next stall say to me: " if you can't make it then no one can. What the hell are you doing here?"

So I get on the computer an "blather" (hence the thread title) about it to all you guys....

[PaddyK]

I didnt think pros kept handicaps.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1355165047' post='6046917']
I didnt think pros kept handicaps.
[/quote];

Well, we can calculate them because their scores and course rating/slope are available....

[CheckJV]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1355165047' post='6046917']
I didnt think pros kept handicaps.
[/quote]

Only for the Member-Guest.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355164831' post='6046897']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355152507' post='6045939']
Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.
[/quote]

Well I think you're right. It is hard to spot in any sport. The only way to really know is see what a player can do at high level tournament golf.

I do agree that any am that can continually place in the top 5 has the necessary ability to at least try to test their game at the next level. But I'm talking about players that are already proven to a certain extent.

My point continues to be that a player that simply has a low handicap at their club is not the same as a guy that can prove that ability at a tournament level.

I guess I'm just talking in circles now. As I said in the beginning of this thread, it's winter in Calgary and watching QSchool got me all nostalgic.

It just still amazes me how I can be hitting balls into a wall at an indoor dome and have a couple guys in the next stall say to me: " if you can't make it then no one can. What the hell are you doing here?"

So I get on the computer an "blather" (hence the thread title) about it to all you guys....
[/quote]

Your overall point is well taken.

I guess if I were you I'd just be pumped that your game resembles that of a tour pros, albeit to the untrained eye. I'm happy anytime someone asks me where I played college golf. My answer whichever place had the cheapest greens fees and didn't card too hard for alcohol!

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355164831' post='6046897']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355152507' post='6045939']
Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.
[/quote]

Well I think you're right. It is hard to spot in any sport. The only way to really know is see what a player can do at high level tournament golf.

I do agree that any am that can continually place in the top 5 has the necessary ability to at least try to test their game at the next level. But I'm talking about players that are already proven to a certain extent.

My point continues to be that a player that simply has a low handicap at their club is not the same as a guy that can prove that ability at a tournament level.

I guess I'm just talking in circles now. As I said in the beginning of this thread, it's winter in Calgary and watching QSchool got me all nostalgic.

It just still amazes me how I can be hitting balls into a wall at an indoor dome and have a couple guys in the next stall say to me: " if you can't make it then no one can. What the hell are you doing here?"

So I get on the computer an "blather" (hence the thread title) about it to all you guys....
[/quote]

First of all, I agree with the whole "you have no idea how good these guys really are" school of thought. But I think the reason that people see a guy like you play and wonder what if or why not or whatever is because you do things about 95% the same as a tour pro and probably a very good one at that. I don't know you personally, but I have seen you post and know you used to play mini tours and such, so I am making some assumptions about what your game looks like. But you'd have to agree that what you do and what Tour Pro A does are substantially similar, setting aside that the minor differences in your games is what leaves you lightyears behind him. My guess is as a +3 handicap type, you probably hit most shots pretty good. You probably rarely make any huge mistakes. You probably routinely hit "tour caliber" shots. And that's the reason that the untrained eye looks at you and says "holy sh*t why aren't you on the tour." But as you know and as I know, although you do things 95% the same as Tour Pro A, his "other 5%" looks pretty much the same as his 95%, and your other 5% is mental edge, penalty shots, lost balls, 3 putts, etc etc etc etc etc - all of the things that add up to 3 or 4 shots a round and represent the difference between a reclaimed AM and a guy paying his bills playing golf. But again, you do things pretty darn similar to him the vast majority of the time. Maybe he has 2 or 3 holes per round where he stares down birdie and you short sided yourself for a bogey or got loose with a tee shot and put one in the trees. But the other 15 or 16 holes, you guys are twins.

[PaddyK]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355165837' post='6046993']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1355165047' post='6046917']
I didnt think pros kept handicaps.
[/quote];

Well, we can calculate them because their scores and course rating/slope are available...
[/quote]

I guess so for usga. I wouldn't want to work out a congu one.

[Hoot151]

A lot of good laughs in this thread. Some of them intentional, some not so much.

[Chief Illiniwek]

Spot on CallawayLefty.

Speaking of first world problems like hacker golfers thinking you're good enough to go pro, I hate when I'm at a bar and some smoking hot girls INSIST that I'm Brad Pitt. Can't they see I'm 95% as handsome as him, at best?!? God, it makes it hard to go out and have a drink. :-)

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355164831' post='6046897']


It just still amazes me how I can be hitting balls into a wall at an indoor dome and have a couple guys in the next stall say to me: " if you can't make it then no one can. What the hell are you doing here?"


[/quote]

Just tell 'em because your a head case.

[Hstead]

On the flip side, one of my favorites is sometimes when I or another member plays in a tournament a shoots a not so great round but also a decent round considering the conditions, course setup, tournament pressure etc. and one of the 12 handicaps tells me how they tore that course up last time they played and how the heck did I shoot 75? Different course due to, different speed greens, different tees, and different rules. These guys will roll the ball nearly everywhere and give themselves 3 footers, not to mention if they lose a ball or hit one in the hazard some of the drops they take nearly in the fairway etc. That always chaps my rear "Man I can't believe you shot 75, I shot 78 last time I was there"

[edub72]

I'd enjoy hearing from Isaac and or Thrillhouse as to what you think the real difference or "it" factor is. I spent time playing with a lot of mini tour players from 1995-2007 and some made it out on the web.com and PGA tours for a year or so but couldn't hang on to cards.

What's the difference between the career mini tour guy that makes money wins mini tour events 54-72 holes in double digit under par scores and , plays with all the local PGA tour players and is every bit as good as them in theory but can't make it any higher than a regional mini tour and the guy that is seemingly the same in ability as them but puts it together at the right time and never loses his card.

I guess it would be like my sales career, everyone can do my job but some are scared to sell or afraid to go to te next level when they hit a certain income level. Does it come down to fear and self doubt at that level?

[bscinstnct]

90% of golfers are bad at golf.

But the good golfers who shake their heads at the "hackersl ho have "no clue" how good you have to be to be a pro golfer shouldnt forget that lots of good athletes, even pro athletes-MLB, NFL and NBA-are included in that 90% and marvel at golfers who can strike a bunch of nice shots.

Its all context from personal experience.

Its like if a good golfer stood in the batters box and tried to hit a curve ball from a good college pitcher that falls off the table (any good baseball player can hit that pitch)

Or tried to tackle a decent 240lb half way decent college fullback (a decent DB at 180lbs can make that tackle)

The golfer would have an appreciation of this (as they stood there thinking the ball would hit them in the head and the drops to the outside corrner) and have no frame of real reference to determine if this athlete was elite or just really good.

[farmer]

Look at Charles Howell III. He was supposed to be a can't miss guy, and he has had a nice career, but hasn't been a dominant player by any means. Part of the difference is the ability to play really well for four consecutive days. The great players play well on different grasses, different green surfaces, in the wind or calm. The good mini tour guy maybe makes a mental mistake or two during a round or makes a bad swing at a critical time, whereas the good tour player does not. A little OT, but back in the day, Frank Beard was regarded as one of the better ballstrikers on tour. He said that if he hit 10 3 irons (tiny little muscle back blades), he would hit 6 good, 3 very good and one acceptably well.