Moving Backwards in Time - Why do you play vintage clubs?

[GolfNutRiblick]

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I second that!

[HoldenCornfield]

 

They are all literally works of art compared to the modern crap.

 

That's reason enough, right there!

 

I donated every other club I owned to Goodwill, stopped playing for three months to get the latest, greatest, whiz-bang technology out of my system, and vowed I would spend the rest of my life playing the game that I enjoy with 1968 Haig Ultra irons, PowerBilt Citation woods, and an old Bullseye putter. If I am hitting a 5-iron from 152 while everyone else in the group is debating between a 9-iron and PW, so be it. I simply do not believe the game being played today is golf; it's a watered-down version of golf for (1) people too lazy to actually master the very difficult game that golf used to be, and (2) Tiger-brainwashed clowns who think that hitting the longest drive and shortest iron on every hole makes you the winner even if you make a 7 and the short hitter makes a 4. This makes me sound like a curmudgeonly old fart, but basically I have decided to play vintage clubs because I despise everything about modern "golf."

 

Love it!

[scomac2002]

I wonder if the game is truly any easier today? It most certainly is for the top level player based upon the number of truly low rounds that are being posted in competition, the length they can hit the ball and the parity on tour. But, is it the same for the rest of us? Handicaps haven't gotten appreciably lower over the years. Yes, we hit the ball further, but that might be further off-line as much as anything when dealing with a poor strike. I'm fairly certain that I would post a lower score with my modern set versus my classics, but that might have as much to do with familiarity because I play them much more often. A good ball striking day is a good ball striking day regardless of what is in your hands. With so many shots being accumulated within 100 yards I doubt that there's much to be gained there with new. Old school golf may require a different approach, but that doesn't mean that it will be any less rewarding when done well score notwithstanding.

[stixman]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

[scruffynick]

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I second that!

I third it!

[birly-shirly]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

 

I love this. Whether or not modern gear makes the game appreciably easier, I don't think the new stuff does anything to make the experience more vivid. I don't want my golf to be wrapped in cotton wool - I want the contact sport that doesn't give you brain damage.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

 

That's a really interesting take on it, and as birly-shirly just said,the new stuff doesn't really make the experience vivid. I've hit some great drives with my Pings (G20 and now G400), but they kind of blend into each other, whereas I can recall some drives I hit with my old Mizuno persimmon driver over 25 years ago. Heck, I can even still see the ball flight in my mind's eye.

[baloo]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

 

This resonates with me. The experience is just more enjoyable when playing vintage gear.

[augustgolf]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

 

That's a really interesting take on it, and as birly-shirly just said,the new stuff doesn't really make the experience vivid. I've hit some great drives with my Pings (G20 and now G400), but they kind of blend into each other, whereas I can recall some drives I hit with my old Mizuno persimmon driver over 25 years ago. Heck, I can even still see the ball flight in my mind's eye.

 

When people talk about the difference between the modern game vs the "old" game, one thing that is rarely mentioned is ball flight, altho, I will admit, I did see a quick reference to it in a post sometime within the last month, but can't remember who or where it was.

 

The take-off trajectory of the old players, with balata balls/wooded head woods was amazing. A low bullet slowly rising to an apex, then dropping slowly towards the target.

 

Today's equipment seems to launch everything sky-high. And, I understand it, if you are playing a 7600 yard course with wet fairways allowing zero roll-out.

 

But, what I see on the PGA tour today is driver roll-out of 30-50 yards.

 

When I moved from Michigan to South Texas, I had to learn how to hit that bullet drive, keeping wedges knee-high to a grasshopper, etc, because I was raised on what you could carry with the driver, allowing for no roll, and hitting high wedges to carry bunkers where pins were tucked immediately behind.

 

I have modern stuff, but still outputt everyone with my older (40+ years) putters, play score as well with my '73 Apex irons/'70 Ping K-1's as I do with the modern stuff.

 

And, while I have the 460cc driver, I have to admit that my Ping Tisi Tex driver puts the ball in play straight and far enough to compete with just about anyone.

 

However, nothing feels as good as striping balata balls with a wooden headed wood, or nailing a low 2-iron into the wind into a long par 3....and, IMHO, nothing ever will.

[birly-shirly]

Growing up, I didn't have the funds to play anything other than what I found - and a found balata was not often a good candidate for putting into play. But the ballflight you describe is just what I remember seeing in good players.

[HoganApexBlades]

For me, it isn't whether it's easier today than yesterday. As it happens I see courses I used play to 5 handicap, and they were regarded as tough then, now set up and 'modernised, to be much more difficult today....and not just crudely lengthened.

 

It is something about the quality and feel of the strike.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of good strikes with old equipment; strikes that gave an inordinate amount of pleasure at the time and that I could recall both back in the bar and in some cases, weeks afterwards.

I could graphically tell you, If you hadn't otherwise shot me, my three 'shots of the year'.

 

With modern equipment I would have very little recall about the quality of the strikes, but...I could bore the backside off you with tales of the outcomes.

 

So, maybe that's it. it's about 'quality' versus 'outcomes'. Zen versus Ego, if you will forgive me going all 1960's on you.

 

That's a really interesting take on it, and as birly-shirly just said,the new stuff doesn't really make the experience vivid. I've hit some great drives with my Pings (G20 and now G400), but they kind of blend into each other, whereas I can recall some drives I hit with my old Mizuno persimmon driver over 25 years ago. Heck, I can even still see the ball flight in my mind's eye.

 

When people talk about the difference between the modern game vs the "old" game, one thing that is rarely mentioned is ball flight, altho, I will admit, I did see a quick reference to it in a post sometime within the last month, but can't remember who or where it was.

 

The take-off trajectory of the old players, with balata balls/wooded head woods was amazing. A low bullet slowly rising to an apex, then dropping slowly towards the target.

 

Today's equipment seems to launch everything sky-high. And, I understand it, if you are playing a 7600 yard course with wet fairways allowing zero roll-out.

 

But, what I see on the PGA tour today is driver roll-out of 30-50 yards.

 

When I moved from Michigan to South Texas, I had to learn how to hit that bullet drive, keeping wedges knee-high to a grasshopper, etc, because I was raised on what you could carry with the driver, allowing for no roll, and hitting high wedges to carry bunkers where pins were tucked immediately behind.

 

I have modern stuff, but still outputt everyone with my older (40+ years) putters, play score as well with my '73 Apex irons/'70 Ping K-1's as I do with the modern stuff.

 

And, while I have the 460cc driver, I have to admit that my Ping Tisi Tex driver puts the ball in play straight and far enough to compete with just about anyone.

 

However, nothing feels as good as striping balata balls with a wooden headed wood, or nailing a low 2-iron into the wind into a long par 3....and, IMHO, nothing ever will.

 

Augie,

 

I know I had mentioned that a BALATA ball hit on the screws of a persimmon driver was similar to a fighter jet launched from a carrier deck...starts low, hits its first "rise", then reaches its next level before leveling off and falling to the earth.

[sandtrap]

I deal in used clubs, and stop by goodwills frequently. I find all kinds of things. My "one" weakness is persimmon. I have to buy the pretty woods. I just can't bear to think of them being thrown out or being destroyed. I know there is no market for them but it's my saving an art form I guess.

 

I took a high tech persimmon, graphite Shaft, with me for an outing and had everyone play a hole w it. Neat ball flight and it really freaked some guys out.

 

Wouldn't you like to hear the sound of metal spikes on the concrete as well?

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Here's another thing that occurred to me this morning. Back in the days of persimmon, the driver was one of the hardest clubs to hit. Probably the hardest was a 1-iron, then a 2w off the deck, perhaps. But driver was up there. I remember the nerves on the first tee when I was hitting driver. "Am I going to make good contact?" "God, I hope I don't duff it...or top it."I remember numerous articles in golf magazines advising players not to take the driver on the first, especially if they hadn't warmed up.

Now, with these enormous 460cc heads, the driver is, I think, one of the easiest clubs to hit. There's so much more room for error than before. That was probably the biggest change I noticed when I came back to golf a few years ago.

[NRJyzr]

Tiger-brainwashed clowns who think that hitting the longest drive and shortest iron on every hole makes you the winner even if you make a 7 and the short hitter makes a 4.

 

Not sure why you're blaming Tiger for that. He's the guy who plays old school lofts and has said if he had his choice, they'd be playing persimmons and balata on the Tour.

[NRJyzr]

Growing up, I didn't have the funds to play anything other than what I found - and a found balata was not often a good candidate for putting into play. But the ballflight you describe is just what I remember seeing in good players.

 

The low initial trajectory that rises is actually a form of ballooning. Or, too much spin.

 

The reason you'd see it in better players is because they were likely the ones with the swingspeed to produce it. And were using a low enough lofted wood to create it. :)

[birly-shirly]

I don't remember anyone ever complaining about too much spin the way folk routinely do now. A very few stories of elite pros who maybe felt they had to change their technique in order to be competitive in certain conditions. Everyone knew that balatas cost you distance off the tee - and if you were good enough, the extra control (AKA "spin") more than paid off approaching the green.

 

And I'm convinced that you would see a different trajectory from a good player hitting persimmon compared to metal woods. The first burners, all 150cc of them, were routinely being played with lofts lower than I've ever seen in persimmon.

 

When everyone was hitting wooden woods, even among decent recreational players, the hallmark of less than perfect contact was a very low launch. I don't see that same sort of miss with modern clubs, which launch the ball consistently higher.

[NRJyzr]

They may not have complained, but they were aware, though not to the level generally seen today thanks to the proliferation of launch monitors. There are plenty of stories of players applying substances to the driver clubface to reduce spin. :)

[birly-shirly]

If, by too much spin, you just mean that they could have hit the ball further, then yes, I agree. They could grease their driver face, or they could stay within the rules and play a surlyn ball. But neither would have been optimal for a good player trying to post a score.

[dcopp7]

 

Now, with these enormous 460cc heads, the driver is, I think, one of the easiest clubs to hit.

you might contact it, but there is a difference between contact and a hit. I tend to swing wildly with a large head driver and hope the forgiveness of the club helps me out, which it never does. When I play 300cc or less wood heads, I tend to hit my best shots by far. I just built a 350cc Cobra driver that is working out well so far but when I am playing modern clubs, I tend to hit 13 or 15* 3W off the tee quite often instead. I can hit it within 10yds of my driver and am far more accurate with it.

[LBP]

Thanks for the likes on my post #282. One of my first posts on these forums, a couple of years ago, was about the pretty massive distance I had gained after age 65 by focusing on fitness and increasing my club head speed, pretty much at all costs, with the use of a Swing Speed Radar and a backyard net. I was hitting 100 drivers a day and calculating my average club head speed down to the tenth of a mph. For at least 18 months, I was definitely on a "distance high," whacking drives 30-40 yards past playing companions who had always driven it about the same distance as I. So I definitely understand the enjoyment of hitting a 7-iron when everyone else is hitting a 5 (or those 40 years younger than you are also hitting a 7). I then realized, however, that (1) my scoring was actually worse than it had ever been, and (2) my quest for distance had turned me into a relentless tinkerer and pretty much screwed up my swing. Now I am hitting my Citation the same 220 I hit it 40 years ago, so at least the fitness has paid off.

 

Despite the loss of distance, the vintage clubs carry their own psychological benefits:

 

1. Everyone, without exception, from teenagers to the elderly, thinks you're cool. There is a cool factor to vintage clubs that even a full set of PXG just don't have.

 

2. Since the current gospel is that anything longer than a 6-iron requires a hybrid, you're considered a god when you pull out a 2-iron or 3-iron even if you hit it no farther than your companion's Whiz Bang 6-hybrid. In fact, you're considered a demi-god if you just get it in the air. Since the vintage 2-iron is basically a modern 4.75 iron anyway, hitting it is really no big deal.

 

3. When you shoot the same 82 you would have shot with a bagful of Whiz Bangs, everyone assumes you're around a scratch player because they all "know" vintage clubs are impossible to hit. Whatever you shoot, they assume you'd be ten shots better with modern clubs.

 

It seems to me the trick is to make a definite commitment to the vintage clubs. Trying to take them out occasionally just doesn't work. They are going to seem like clunky garden tools. But when you get the Whiz Bang technology out of your system, they are completely playable. After laying off for a few months, I started back hitting 100 balls with my Haig Ultra 8-iron - and it looked and felt like a perfectly normal 8-iron, which it would not if I had spent the previous day hitting 100 graphite-shafted Cobra Fly-Z's 8-irons that were a full inch longer, weighed far less and had 8 degrees less loft.

[scomac2002]

LBP; I love your enthusiasm! I should try and get that back myself, but I seem to have fallen into the trap of shooting for score in league play because there's money on the line. I had this grand plan of doing a heritage course tour this fall with my half set of blades and laminate woods to take on the courses with appropriate implements for the times that they were designed, but that never did seem to materialize.

 

Strangely enough, I put a set of modern graphite shafted game improvement irons in the bag for today's round and they felt about as foreign as anything vintage might for a newby to classic clubs. I couldn't hit the irons worth a damn. Worse yet was I was an absolute butcher with the wedges versus the Hogans that I had been playing for most of the year. Why are these easy to hit modern clubs so much shorter than vintage classics? That was the biggest surprise to me!

 

I will say one thing; it doesn't matter whether you hit them good or bad they all feel the same! :dntknw:

[augustgolf]

I deal in used clubs, and stop by goodwills frequently. I find all kinds of things. My "one" weakness is persimmon. I have to buy the pretty woods. I just can't bear to think of them being thrown out or being destroyed. I know there is no market for them but it's my saving an art form I guess.

 

I took a high tech persimmon, graphite Shaft, with me for an outing and had everyone play a hole w it. Neat ball flight and it really freaked some guys out.

 

Wouldn't you like to hear the sound of metal spikes on the concrete as well?

 

Yes, the sounds of metal spikes on concrete...and, they always made a different sound when walking across asphalt.

 

The only time you heard the concrete sound was around the pro shop. Concrete cart paths weren't part of the picture yet when I caddied.

 

And, altho I didn't smoke, I always appreciated the smell of a Lucky Strike or Camel wafting through the air whilst listening to that familiar crunch of spikes on the concrete.

 

And, never EVER did anyone flip their cigarette butt onto the ground. They were carried until the next trash receptacle on the course.

 

Things from the past I'm afraid we will never experience again...but we can hope, can't we?

[augustgolf]

So, what do vintage clubs do for you? Why you collect them or play them?

 

My first set of really quality clubs was a 1968 set of Haig Ultra irons with aluminum shafts, which I acquired in 1970 when I was 20. In 1998, I happened upon a set of 1968 Haig Ultra irons with aluminum shafts in near-pristine condition, which I played off and on for a couple of years while also playing the latest, greatest, whiz-bang technology (I worked at Ping for several years). About 6 months ago, I played a round with my Cobra Fly-Z woods and hybrids and Mizuno JPX 825 Pro irons and simply said, "That's it, I'm done. Golf, if you wish to call this game golf, has become silly." I was 40 yards longer at 67 years old than I was at 25. To my mind, this is simply not golf anymore. I found on eBay a set of 1968 Haig Ultra irons with steel shafts (2-SW) in pristine condition, a set of PowerBilt Citation persimmon woods in pristine condition (1-3-4-5), and an old Bullseye putter in pristine condition. They are all literally works of art compared to the modern crap. I donated every other club I owned to Goodwill, stopped playing for three months to get the latest, greatest, whiz-bang technology out of my system, and vowed I would spend the rest of my life playing the game that I enjoy with 1968 Haig Ultra irons, PowerBilt Citation woods, and an old Bullseye putter. If I am hitting a 5-iron from 152 while everyone else in the group is debating between a 9-iron and PW, so be it. I simply do not believe the game being played today is golf; it's a watered-down version of golf for (1) people too lazy to actually master the very difficult game that golf used to be, and (2) Tiger-brainwashed clowns who think that hitting the longest drive and shortest iron on every hole makes you the winner even if you make a 7 and the short hitter makes a 4. This makes me sound like a curmudgeonly old fart, but basically I have decided to play vintage clubs because I despise everything about modern "golf."

 

 

[Fletcherville]

Being a furniture designer by trade I am very much inspired by the simple, and functional (and therefore beautiful and appealing to me) designs of older equipment.

Like any other tool worth its salt, if you use it correctly it will do its job.

However hyperbolic the comparison, the SGI clubs of today are akin to a CNC router in the eyes of an old master who plies his work by hand.

While I most often play more modern (I.e. ~10 years old) CB irons and I love my bio cell woods, I relish the occasional twilight round with my 30+ year old Cobra Mild Steel blade irons on my back.

[Pinball Wizard]

Great opening post. Maybe it's true, everything goes full circle, and when I also consider a tall flag stick proudly taking its position on a green I also see a tall tree that may have, at one time, occupied the same location and gave its life to allow our game to unfold, so using a persimmon wood may offer some measure of respect to them as they watch us play, knock on wood.

 

[TimV]

Old school golf may require a different approach, but that doesn't mean that it will be any less rewarding when done well score notwithstanding.

 

Indeed. We few, we proud, we stubborn, find it far more rewarding! ;)

[sdandrea]

For this 65 year old:

 

1. They look cool in the bag (to me, anyway)

2. It's more fun playing well and winning a few bucks with equipment that the OEM marketers say is no good

3. I built my swing as a youngster around high offset, high-toe irons (Karsten I)

4. I keep trying the new stuff and can't find anything that feels better than a well struck Eye 2 iron with a ZZ LIte shaft.

[omcriles]

You would never see a Japanese archery master shooting a compound bow.

[Tumbleweed_1968]

My thoughts on 2017:

 

This was the year I discovered vintage golf. I started with some really bad 3rd hand CB irons and lousy metal woods. Throughout the year I bought about 5 complete sets of vintage irons, more laminated and persimmon woods than I can count, and some brand new GI clubs. Went to three vintage outings, got some hickories, got more clubs given to me, and made some new friends. All in all, it was a pretty good year of golf. My scoring improved too, so I got that going for me.

 

I just enjoy the heck out of playing vintage courses with vintage clubs. There is a certain synergy playing a course built in the 1960s with clubs from the same era, just like there is a synergy playing 100 year old courses with 100 year old clubs.

 

I also enjoyed playing modern courses with old clubs, and finding out that my scoring was essentially the same no matter where and with what I played. Hit some great shots with the vintage clubs this year. That was fun. Mis-hits were not as punishing. Overall, I think my club buying days are over, except to fill out my hickory set with a couple of woods. I have everything I need at this point, and I can put together a couple of sets for friends who don't have any. So that also adds to the fun.

 

But there is just something about hitting a persimmon wood, hearing the thwack, and seeing it go where you wanted that makes it really cool. And hitting a forged iron correctly, when you were told that was only for pros, just feels so good.

 

My storage area holds a lot of projects to keep me busy all winter. And in the spring, I look forward to getting the hickory clubs out once again. My birth year set is still waiting to be played. Also learned the joy of playing with a minimalist set, which I am hoping to turn into a passion for speed golf in 2018. Lots to look forward to.

 

So that is my year in review. That hole in one is still out there. Hope to check that off the bucket list and make it using a vintage club. That would be sweet. Cheers!

[Tim Schoch]

I didn't embrace vintage golf until I became vintage myself. It is a journey of nostalgia, memories, and reward for me. I wonder how the Millennials who play old clubs feel about them. To me, the clubs are old friends and we hobble around the course together. For the youngsters, do they feel like they're driving a Model A or polishing up an old gem? It's probably more like putting on a costume for them.

 

I know some folks are into hickories. I'm not. But I do dabble in vintage mid-century goods, and we have a number of wooden-shafted clubs in the shop. Once in a while I get questions--not about the hickories, but asking if I have any old Pings or 845s. So I'd give them an answer something like "Why, when I was your age, sonny, I used to eat 845 club heads for breakfast! " and they'd smile crookedly and wander off.

 

I recently purchased my first set of Ping Eye 2 BeCu irons to go with my pristine Ping Eye 2 woods. They don't feel much different than my steel set of Pings, but there is something magical about them. I have a Scottsdale Anser BeCu putter, and when I put it together with the BeCu irons, I could've sworn I heard them talking. Probably about my swing. Copper clubs are a bit of a wiseass, I hear.

 

I'll tell you, though, I take the 50.5* PW out in the back yard and I often hit pitch shots until dusk. I think they do have magic. I've often thought that some clubs have good memories and others just don't, particularly putters. Some are dumb as metal, but others recall old shots you've sunk and reward you again. You can just feel it. Those are the clubs you keep. Those are the valued ones that keep you in the game.