Fan Hit by Koepka's Drive - **MERGED TOPICS**

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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    Dr. Block wrote:


    alexdub wrote:



    1. Fans are ROUTINELY hit with errant tee shots at events. This ball just happened to strike in the most unfortunate spot.



    2. That doesn't all of the sudden change the legal responsibilities of all parties involved.





    Had to pick the low-hanging fruit here. The first point you made completely contradicts with your second one, which I thought was kind of funny. Regular occurrence of a seemingly random event absolutely, completely, and unequivocally changes the legal responsibilities of those involved:



    Let's imagine we're in pre-trial for this case. The court is responding to the European Tour's motion to dismiss. Let's pretend you're serving as counsel for the co-defendants. How do you respond when the court likely asks: Is it generally foreseeable that injuries can occur at golf tournaments? How regularly do these injuries occur? What measures have defendants taken to stop future injuries? Have defendants ever paid or settled a damage claim? Is the loss of sight due to injury a natural and probable consequence of attending a golf match?



    In a court's purview, damages (even extra-ordinary damages) resulting from a semi-regular and foreseeable event are completely relevant to the assessment of legal responsibility. It's easy to forget — but courts, the common law, and statutes don't define legal terms like liability, negligence, risk, and waiver in the same way the general public does (for good reason).



    I'm picking on Putterman here, but 90% of the takes in here are off-base in their legal analysis.




    So legal responsibility changes with the degree of injury? Am I understanding you correctly?



    You go to a baseball game and dont pay attention to a foul ball......one person it hit in the arm and get a bruise.....the other in the face..... the baseball team is only responsible for the second person not paying attention?



    If YOU place your self in harms way, the degree of your injury does not absolve you of your inability to pay attention.




    Responsibility doesn't change, the likely-hood of action may though. The responsibility never changes. He's saying that your statement outlining the frequency of people struck by golf balls is specifically why an event organizer or golf tournament body would see, understand, and be insured against such liabilities.




    Fair but beside the point for me.
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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    farmer wrote:

    alexdub wrote:



    1. Fans are ROUTINELY hit with errant tee shots at events. This ball just happened to strike in the most unfortunate spot.



    2. That doesn't all of the sudden change the legal responsibilities of all parties involved.





    Had to pick the low-hanging fruit here. The first point you made completely contradicts with your second one, which I thought was kind of funny. Regular occurrence of a seemingly random event absolutely, completely, and unequivocally changes the legal responsibilities of those involved:



    Let's imagine we're in pre-trial for this case. The court is responding to the European Tour's motion to dismiss. Let's pretend you're serving as counsel for the co-defendants. How do you respond when the court likely asks: Is it generally foreseeable that injuries can occur at golf tournaments? How regularly do these injuries occur? What measures have defendants taken to stop future injuries? Have defendants ever paid or settled a damage claim? Is the loss of sight due to injury a natural and probable consequence of attending a golf match?



    In a court's purview, damages (even extra-ordinary damages) resulting from a semi-regular and foreseeable event are completely relevant to the assessment of legal responsibility. It's easy to forget — but courts, the common law, and statutes don't define legal terms like liability, negligence, risk, and waiver in the same way the general public does (for good reason).



    I'm picking on Putterman here, but 90% of the takes in here are off-base in their legal analysis.
    As I posted earlier, she will be paid, NDA, no admitting liability. This will never go to trial. Even if the Euro Tour, RC, or defendants won, it would be a huge PR disaster, and cost a lot of money. This poor woman should have been more aware of where she was and the dangers inherent to her position, but possibly a first timer? If I hear "FORE", I go turtle, but maybe she just didn't know.




    She is claiming she never heard it yelled. She is an avid golfer, I'm sure she knows what fore means.
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    Bingo1976 wrote:


    Dr. Block wrote:




    I hope her suit is tossed out. Sadly it wont be.



    Its a shame when you start to feel bad for someone in an unfortunate situation, then they pull something like this. I feel less bad for her.....




    Huh? Put yourself in her situation...she LOST AN EYE !!! What would you do ? image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' /> The sponsors and organizers SHOULD give her a settlement...SHE LOST AN EYE...and they won't miss the money. 'nuff said




    I like this post. All the internet tough guys posting in this thread saying she's owed nothing would be doing exactly what she is doing right now if they were in her shoes. You see a payday, you grasp it. Especially if you have been permanently disfigured/severely injured.



    It's why tort lawyers are rich men.




    This may surprise you but there are a great many people that hold values high and accept responsibility for their choices.




    She went to a golf tournament, not stepped into a paintball game without goggles.



    Someone needs to settle with her quickly before it gets out of hand and all tournaments are held behind 100 foot high plexiglass.




    She was standing 300 yards away as people were driving the green. Did she have some extremely bad luck, obviously. But that's inherently probably the most dangerous situation you can create and she is claiming that a fore warning was never clearly given. Sorry, but organizers have a responsibility for some standard of safety. A golf ball travelling at 100mpg is a dangerous object. Now, I agree that people have some responsibility if you are putting yourself in relative harm's way but they should also expect that the standard golf warning of fore is clearly given by organizers during one of the biggest golfing events of the year.
  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    Claiming you didnt hear fore called isnt evidence that is actually wasnt called.







    Fore was called NUMEROUS times, you can also hear quieter calls, implying the call being made down the fairway.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,616 ClubWRX
    chigolfer1 wrote:

    Bingo1976 wrote:


    Dr. Block wrote:





    I hope her suit is tossed out. Sadly it wont be.



    Its a shame when you start to feel bad for someone in an unfortunate situation, then they pull something like this. I feel less bad for her.....





    Huh? Put yourself in her situation...she LOST AN EYE !!! What would you do ? image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' /> The sponsors and organizers SHOULD give her a settlement...SHE LOST AN EYE...and they won't miss the money. 'nuff said




    I like this post. All the internet tough guys posting in this thread saying she's owed nothing would be doing exactly what she is doing right now if they were in her shoes. You see a payday, you grasp it. Especially if you have been permanently disfigured/severely injured.



    It's why tort lawyers are rich men.




    This may surprise you but there are a great many people that hold values high and accept responsibility for their choices.




    She went to a golf tournament, not stepped into a paintball game without goggles.



    Someone needs to settle with her quickly before it gets out of hand and all tournaments are held behind 100 foot high plexiglass.




    She was standing 300 yards away as people were driving the green. Did she have some extremely bad luck, obviously. But that's inherently probably the most dangerous situation you can create and she is claiming that a fore warning was never clearly given. Sorry, but organizers have a responsibility for some standard of safety. A golf ball travelling at 100mpg is a dangerous object. Now, I agree that people have some responsibility if you are putting yourself in relative harm's way but they should also expect that the standard golf warning of fore is clearly given by organizers during one of the biggest golfing events of the year.




    I think we’ve heard both sides. That there was a warning shout of fore, and that she didn’t hear it? Whose fault is it that she didn’t hear? If the warning was shouted, that’s all they can do. Really curious as to what she was doing at the time. Was she paying attention to the golf, or was she talking with someone or on her phone? Did the other spectators hear the warning and take action? How the other around her reacted should tell if there was a warning, and if it was sufficiently loud enough to hear.



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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    edited Oct 11, 2018 #397
    My argument was premised on if they didn't yell fore as many seem to be arguing that even if it wasn't, it's still tough schnikes. Maybe I'm misinterpreting though.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,060 ✭✭
    edited Oct 11, 2018 #398
    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say “ there you go blaming the victim. “



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don’t think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It’s a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who’s at fault. The young lady who didn’t set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don’t tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It’s not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I’ve been told in open court by a judge that “ ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision “. At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn’t stand there . Same as folks with sense don’t play in the road in the dark .
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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭


    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?
  • Forged4everForged4ever To See A Man’s True Character, Play Golf With Him The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene poolClubWRX Posts: 15,605 ClubWRX
    edited Oct 11, 2018 #400
    Skhacker wrote:


    Wish her the best. I'd much rather have my eyesight than a couple million extra in the bank.
    First, having basically lost the sight in my left eye post-stroke in 2015, referred to as monocular vision loss, as I can only see grey & my vision is 20/220 in it(legally blind 20/200), if ya offered me $2Mill in the bank(medical awards are not taxed in the US) or my sight back in my left eye, I’m takin the $2Mill every day all day 7/365.



    I’ve adapted and while it would be great to have my sight back in my left eye, it would never be $2Mill worth of great, lol



    Secondly, while her situation is unfortunate, I would not put her vision loss in the “tragedy” category any more than I would mine.



    I went to bed with 20/20 vision in both eyes and woke up to not being able to see out of my left eye, or being able to totally control my movement with my left side, arm, hand and foot, and no one yelled “fore,” thus giving me the opportunity to duck.



    Either situation sucks, but ya accept it, deal with it, and move on.



    Tragic??



    Paleeeze image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    There’s a reason why we got two kidneys, lungs and eyes image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    I do hope that she has a speedy recovery and looks at the positive side because obviously she had no idea where the ball was coming from so it could have been much worse and potentially a truly tragic event.



    It could have been much worse and that is the way that I have always looked at things.



    For her sake I hope that she does also, because no monetary award will give her that peace of mind if she doesn’t already have it within image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    Obviously, this is just my .03 worth😎



    Cheers🍻

    RP
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    My argument was premised on if they didn't yell fore as many seem to be arguing that even if it wasn't, it's still tough schnikes. Maybe I'm misinterpreting though.
    see the video I linked, it was yelled at least 4 separate times from the tee box, you can hear a quieter call, implying someone in the distance heard it and repeated the call.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,060 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they’ve offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn’t the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn’t a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I’ve been to many races. I’ve never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn’t easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,616 ClubWRX
    Hate to harp on it, but I am really curious. Does anyone know how the people around her reacted. Were they aware of a possible ball incoming?
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭


    Hate to harp on it, but I am really curious. Does anyone know how the people around her reacted. Were they aware of a possible ball incoming?




    I haven't seen a video that gives good evidence on what everyone else was up to, tough to guess.
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭


    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say “ there you go blaming the victim. “



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don’t think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It’s a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who’s at fault. The young lady who didn’t set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don’t tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It’s not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I’ve been told in open court by a judge that “ ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision “. At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn’t stand there . Same as folks with sense don’t play in the road in the dark .




    What a tragic miscarriage from the court system
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHPosts: 3,015 ✭✭

    Ferguson wrote:

    Hawkeye77 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    bscinstnct wrote:


    With whom would you think the liability lies?



    Are the French



    Looking the other way?




    I can't imagine someone turning a blind eye in this situation.




    Since I'll already be there I'll turn up the burners in **** for your arrival!!'




    See........you there.




    I don’t think you two are going to be having any visitors!




    Can't wait to watch Phil ask Ferg about all his posts...
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,381 ClubWRX

    Ferguson wrote:

    Hawkeye77 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    bscinstnct wrote:


    With whom would you think the liability lies?



    Are the French



    Looking the other way?




    I can't imagine someone turning a blind eye in this situation.




    Since I'll already be there I'll turn up the burners in **** for your arrival!!'




    See........you there.




    I don’t think you two are going to be having any visitors!




    LOL! So cold! Just what we need in ****!
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭

    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they've offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn't the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn't a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I've been to many races. I've never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn't easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.




    lol, pay to take pictures with a lion? You are really out there on that one.



    If I go to a nascar race, sit next to the track and the fence breaks due to a faulty installation, do you think there is any liability on the organizer's part? If not, then I guess we will just agree to disagree.



    Again, IF no fore was yelled, this is the same situation. You went to an event and it is reasonable to expect that standard safety measures are being adhered to like a fore warning given, just like you expect the fence to not fail.
  • cgbmcgbm Members Posts: 1,041
    edited Oct 12, 2018 #409
    You go to a golf tournament, stand next to the fairway or green and expect someone else to let you know when golf balls are flying?



    Wait wait. Not only do you expect them to tell you but when one comes and hits you. You then sue them because you “didnt hear them”.



    Hmmm. So if you werent paying attention to the golf play and didnt hear the fore from the tee. Didnt see others scrambling. Clearly were distracted. You now think you would have heard a marshal say fore and also would have listened.



    Give me a break
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    cgbm wrote:


    You go to a golf tournament, stand next to the fairway or green and expect someone else to let you know when golf balls are flying?



    Wait wait. Not only do you expect them to tell you but when one comes and hits you. You then sue them because you “didnt hear themâ€&#157;.



    Hmmm. So if you werent paying attention to the golf play and didnt hear the fore from the tee. Didnt see others scrambling. Clearly were distracted. You now think you would have heard a marshal say fore and also would have listened.



    Give me a break




    It's like we're back to square one. The marshals may or may not have yelled fore but do you really think anyone is hearing fore from a tee box 300+ yards away?



    Give me a break
  • cgbmcgbm Members Posts: 1,041
    If im standing at the ropes and brooks steps up to the tee and hits a shot. I can see him yell something. I can see him wave his arm to the side indicating an errant shot. And i will then duck and cover.



    And i dont know if i can hear a fore from 300. I think i may be able to though. But either way there is way way more to this than weather she could hear fore from the tee.



    All of the arguments in here boil down to the morality of the law suit vs the legality of the law suit. Some stand on one side. Some stand on the other.



    I fall on the morality side of it all. Clearly.



    No You give me a break
  • Forged4everForged4ever To See A Man’s True Character, Play Golf With Him The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene poolClubWRX Posts: 15,605 ClubWRX
    cgbm wrote:


    If im standing at the ropes and brooks steps up to the tee and hits a shot. I can see him yell something. I can see him wave his arm to the side indicating an errant shot. And i will then duck and cover.



    And i dont know if i can hear a fore from 300. I think i may be able to though. But either way there is way way more to this than weather she could hear fore from the tee.



    All of the arguments in here boil down to the morality of the law suit vs the legality of the law suit. Some stand on one side. Some stand on the other.



    I fall on the morality side of it all. Clearly.
    Me too😉



    Have a great weekend🍻

    RP
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,060 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they've offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn't the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn't a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I've been to many races. I've never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn't easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.




    lol, pay to take pictures with a lion? You are really out there on that one.



    If I go to a nascar race, sit next to the track and the fence breaks due to a faulty installation, do you think there is any liability on the organizer's part? If not, then I guess we will just agree to disagree.



    Again, IF no fore was yelled, this is the same situation. You went to an event and it is reasonable to expect that standard safety measures are being adhered to like a fore warning given, just like you expect the fence to not fail.




    LOl...Ok scuba dive and you drown, snorkling and a shark eats you...whatever you prefer .. They are less than safe activities where accidents happen .



    I gave an example of using out of date or known malfunctioning equipment as reasons for liability... Same for a fence that isnt properly installed... lets say that same race an axle breaks and hits just right and flies the 30-40 foot fence they have surrounding the track.. a one in a billion chance... kills a couple.. do i think the track or organization is responsible? No i really dont.. now i do know they have insurance to cover it . BUT thats part of what drives up prices for all of us . Id just like to see people take some responsibility for their own choice to do a less than safe activity . Thats all. Some activities i do not believe theres a realistic expectation of safety , ever.... Baseball game in the kill zone and golf tournament 280-330 out beside a fairway is same same ....
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they've offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn't the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn't a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I've been to many races. I've never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn't easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.




    lol, pay to take pictures with a lion? You are really out there on that one.



    If I go to a nascar race, sit next to the track and the fence breaks due to a faulty installation, do you think there is any liability on the organizer's part? If not, then I guess we will just agree to disagree.



    Again, IF no fore was yelled, this is the same situation. You went to an event and it is reasonable to expect that standard safety measures are being adhered to like a fore warning given, just like you expect the fence to not fail.




    Your attempt at an analogy using your NASCAR scenario is terribly faulted. I MUCH better one would be if the had a section with no fence and a giant sign that says sit here at your own risk, and you did anyway.



    I also dont understand why people, including yourself, keep saying IF no fore was yelled. Are you that lazy you cannot be bothered to watch the numerous videos out there where fore was clearly, and quite loudly called numerous times.
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    cgbm wrote:


    If im standing at the ropes and brooks steps up to the tee and hits a shot. I can see him yell something. I can see him wave his arm to the side indicating an errant shot. And i will then duck and cover.



    And i dont know if i can hear a fore from 300. I think i may be able to though. But either way there is way way more to this than weather she could hear fore from the tee.



    All of the arguments in here boil down to the morality of the law suit vs the legality of the law suit. Some stand on one side. Some stand on the other.



    I fall on the morality side of it all. Clearly.



    No You give me a break




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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    edited Oct 12, 2018 #416

    chigolfer1 wrote:


    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they've offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn't the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn't a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I've been to many races. I've never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn't easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.




    lol, pay to take pictures with a lion? You are really out there on that one.



    If I go to a nascar race, sit next to the track and the fence breaks due to a faulty installation, do you think there is any liability on the organizer's part? If not, then I guess we will just agree to disagree.



    Again, IF no fore was yelled, this is the same situation. You went to an event and it is reasonable to expect that standard safety measures are being adhered to like a fore warning given, just like you expect the fence to not fail.




    Your attempt at an analogy using your NASCAR scenario is terribly faulted. I MUCH better one would be if the had a section with no fence and a giant sign that says sit here at your own risk, and you did anyway.



    I also dont understand why people, including yourself, keep saying IF no fore was yelled. Are you that lazy you cannot be bothered to watch the numerous videos out there where fore was clearly, and quite loudly called numerous times.




    The point is you are saying there is no difference in culpability if no fore was yelled, which is why I'm debating under the premise it wasn't yelled. Again, many, including you(?) are arguing it doesn't make a difference. I also don't agree with your Nascar scenario. At a golf event the presumption is that the marshalls will yell fore if a 100mph ball is coming in the direction of the crowd just like the presumption is the fence is in working order.



    I agree that if fore was clearly communicated that it makes for a different scenario.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,390 ✭✭

    alexdub wrote:



    1. Fans are ROUTINELY hit with errant tee shots at events. This ball just happened to strike in the most unfortunate spot.



    2. That doesn't all of the sudden change the legal responsibilities of all parties involved.





    Had to pick the low-hanging fruit here. The first point you made completely contradicts with your second one, which I thought was kind of funny. Regular occurrence of a seemingly random event absolutely, completely, and unequivocally changes the legal responsibilities of those involved:



    Let's imagine we're in pre-trial for this case. The court is responding to the European Tour's motion to dismiss. Let's pretend you're serving as counsel for the co-defendants. How do you respond when the court likely asks: Is it generally foreseeable that injuries can occur at golf tournaments? How regularly do these injuries occur? What measures have defendants taken to stop future injuries? Have defendants ever paid or settled a damage claim? Is the loss of sight due to injury a natural and probable consequence of attending a golf match?



    In a court's purview, damages (even extra-ordinary damages) resulting from a semi-regular and foreseeable event are completely relevant to the assessment of legal responsibility. It's easy to forget — but courts, the common law, and statutes don't define legal terms like liability, negligence, risk, and waiver in the same way the general public does (for good reason).



    I'm picking on Putterman here, but 90% of the takes in here are off-base in their legal analysis.




    So legal responsibility changes with the degree of injury? Am I understanding you correctly?



    You go to a baseball game and dont pay attention to a foul ball......one person it hit in the arm and get a bruise.....the other in the face..... the baseball team is only responsible for the second person not paying attention?



    If YOU place your self in harms way, the degree of your injury does not absolve you of your inability to pay attention.




    If someone buys a ticket to an event that places them, in some fashion, in harms way, that person has chosen to be there so accepts fault. However, wining an out of court settlement or court case depends on quality of legal representation, who's willing to go to the mat to win as well as government bias. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
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  • klbrown514klbrown514 Posts: 202 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:




    The point is you are saying there is no difference in culpability if no fore was yelled, which is why I'm debating under the premise it wasn't yelled. Again, many, including you(?) are arguing it doesn't make a difference. I also don't agree with your Nascar scenario. At a golf event the presumption is that the marshalls will yell fore if a 100mph ball is coming in the direction of the crowd just like the presumption is the fence is in working order.



    I agree that if fore was clearly communicated that it makes for a different scenario.




    Just a quick clarification. I have worked at golf tournaments as a marshall for the past 9 years. We are not required to yell fore in any situation (at least for the tournaments I work). However we attempt to help the patrons in any way we can in the regard of errant balls, but honestly due to marshall placement you may or may not be able to see where the ball is going. This year I was standing in the rough about 10 yds off the fairway and the flag person motioned that the ball was middle of the fairway. It missed my head by 12 inches (we had a long chat about that). Just to clarify marshalls, for the tournaments I work, are not required to yell fore. They do it out of courtesy.
  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 5,363 ✭✭


    alexdub wrote:



    1. Fans are ROUTINELY hit with errant tee shots at events. This ball just happened to strike in the most unfortunate spot.



    2. That doesn't all of the sudden change the legal responsibilities of all parties involved.





    Had to pick the low-hanging fruit here. The first point you made completely contradicts with your second one, which I thought was kind of funny. Regular occurrence of a seemingly random event absolutely, completely, and unequivocally changes the legal responsibilities of those involved:



    Let's imagine we're in pre-trial for this case. The court is responding to the European Tour's motion to dismiss. Let's pretend you're serving as counsel for the co-defendants. How do you respond when the court likely asks: Is it generally foreseeable that injuries can occur at golf tournaments? How regularly do these injuries occur? What measures have defendants taken to stop future injuries? Have defendants ever paid or settled a damage claim? Is the loss of sight due to injury a natural and probable consequence of attending a golf match?



    In a court's purview, damages (even extra-ordinary damages) resulting from a semi-regular and foreseeable event are completely relevant to the assessment of legal responsibility. It's easy to forget — but courts, the common law, and statutes don't define legal terms like liability, negligence, risk, and waiver in the same way the general public does (for good reason).



    I'm picking on Putterman here, but 90% of the takes in here are off-base in their legal analysis.




    So legal responsibility changes with the degree of injury? Am I understanding you correctly?



    You go to a baseball game and dont pay attention to a foul ball......one person it hit in the arm and get a bruise.....the other in the face..... the baseball team is only responsible for the second person not paying attention?



    If YOU place your self in harms way, the degree of your injury does not absolve you of your inability to pay attention.




    If someone buys a ticket to an event that places them, in some fashion, in harms way, that person has chosen to be there so accepts fault. However, wining an out of court settlement or court case depends on quality of legal representation, who's willing to go to the mat to win as well as government bias. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />




    There you have so let's lock it up!
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 811 ✭✭
    klbrown514 wrote:

    chigolfer1 wrote:


    The point is you are saying there is no difference in culpability if no fore was yelled, which is why I'm debating under the premise it wasn't yelled. Again, many, including you(?) are arguing it doesn't make a difference. I also don't agree with your Nascar scenario. At a golf event the presumption is that the marshalls will yell fore if a 100mph ball is coming in the direction of the crowd just like the presumption is the fence is in working order.



    I agree that if fore was clearly communicated that it makes for a different scenario.




    Just a quick clarification. I have worked at golf tournaments as a marshall for the past 9 years. We are not required to yell fore in any situation (at least for the tournaments I work). However we attempt to help the patrons in any way we can in the regard of errant balls, but honestly due to marshall placement you may or may not be able to see where the ball is going. This year I was standing in the rough about 10 yds off the fairway and the flag person motioned that the ball was middle of the fairway. It missed my head by 12 inches (we had a long chat about that). Just to clarify marshalls, for the tournaments I work, are not required to yell fore. They do it out of courtesy.




    Good info. Given there was an article in this same thread about players not yelling fore, something needs to be addressed here imo.
  • doublehansdoublehans Posts: 641 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    chigolfer1 wrote:



    I hate situations like this. I have a strong opinion on it and yet if I express it people will say " there you go blaming the victim. "



    Local story. Local teacher is killed at 5 am on his bicycle . He was riding on a nearly deserted rural road with speed limit of 45 near my house. It was still very dark at 5 am. Young lady going to work hit him. She says she never saw him. No skid marks etc. they charge her and convict of of vehicular manslaughter. And sentence her to 5 years in jail.



    2 issues with that.



    1. I don't think bicycles should be on a rural road anyway. No bike lanes. No taxes paid. No way. City limits with bike lanes. Sure.



    2. Absolutely zero witnesses and no skid marks. No proof of anything except a grown man playing in the street in the dark.



    It's a very regrettable and terrible accident. But who's at fault. The young lady who didn't set out to kill anyone that morning ? Or the man who did set out to put himself in harms way that morning ? And no don't tell me riding a bicycle is same as gettin in the car and entering the highway. It's not.



    This lady may have been ignorant of her danger. But I've been told in open court by a judge that " ignorance is no excuse and will not be considered in my decision ". At some point people have to understand and take responsibility for their own safety. If she had an expectation of safety 300 out at a pro tournament she was sadly mistaken. A mistake of her own doing. Anyone who knows anything wouldn't stand there . Same as folks with sense don't play in the road in the dark .




    So to my previous post, are you saying that you think the organizers bear no responsibility even if a fore warning wasn't given?




    Personally. No. Not legally. Morally sure. Pay her expenses plus a nest egg . It would be the right thing and they've offered to take care of her.



    Especially if the ticket has a disclaimer like the pga tour ticket. People should not be able to sue at will. Or if they do and lose should have to pay damages themselves.



    Example. You go to a lion exhibit. Pay to take pics with the lion. Sign a release or buy a ticket with a disclaimer . Lion eats you. In my book you were eaten because you played with a dangerous animal. That isn't the fault of the folks selling lion experiences. Any reasonable person knows this isn't a safe endeavor. Much like skydiving or bungee jumping. Only suits I agree with there is proven negligence like using known malfunctioning equipment etc.



    Standing beside a fairway at a pga tour event is just as dangerous as standing trackside at a Nhra drag race. I've been to many races. I've never stood by the rail. Or sat on the top end stands. 300 mph plus isn't easy to catch bare handed. But idiots do it.




    lol, pay to take pictures with a lion? You are really out there on that one.



    If I go to a nascar race, sit next to the track and the fence breaks due to a faulty installation, do you think there is any liability on the organizer's part? If not, then I guess we will just agree to disagree.



    Again, IF no fore was yelled, this is the same situation. You went to an event and it is reasonable to expect that standard safety measures are being adhered to like a fore warning given, just like you expect the fence to not fail.




    LOl...Ok scuba dive and you drown, snorkling and a shark eats you...whatever you prefer .. They are less than safe activities where accidents happen .



    I gave an example of using out of date or known malfunctioning equipment as reasons for liability... Same for a fence that isnt properly installed... lets say that same race an axle breaks and hits just right and flies the 30-40 foot fence they have surrounding the track.. a one in a billion chance... kills a couple.. do i think the track or organization is responsible? No i really dont.. now i do know they have insurance to cover it . BUT thats part of what drives up prices for all of us . Id just like to see people take some responsibility for their own choice to do a less than safe activity . Thats all. Some activities i do not believe theres a realistic expectation of safety , ever.... Baseball game in the kill zone and golf tournament 280-330 out beside a fairway is same same ....




    The increased costs would actually be a significant factor here if it meant a strong run up in ticket prices and related decline in attendance. but serious injuries at tour events are pretty rare, so paying out or buying insurance would be unlikely to tip that scale.
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