Jordan Speith - Weak Era

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='Anonymosity' timestamp='1437479302' post='11991016']
[b]Standard "back in my day" stuff. Everybody thinks the sports, music, cars, etc. from their prime was the best ever.[/b]

If some rando is in contention in a tournament in 2015, it shows how weak the fields are. If some rando was in contention in 1970, it showed how deep the fields were. No players in the mid-20th century ever succumbed to pressure, ever. Jack Nicklaus would drive the ball 450 yards with modern equipment. And so on.
[/quote]

And the opposite is also true. New is better and improved because, well, its happening now and things always get better and old things are just old. The reality is that memories fade, and hyperbole is what is served to the masses to keep them buying the latest and greatest.

Anyway I will go back to daydreaming about the halcyon days in ye olden times. Back in 2004. When men were men, and cars were.... hmmm, quite similar actually.

[Illest]

In what way does one golfer make an entire field strong?

[Dave230]

[quote name='Bear Trader' timestamp='1437477949' post='11990952']
The very fact a guy like Sergio who was destroyed by Tiger for 15years and can now compete and be on the top leaderboard in this era shows golf is weak. If there was no Tiger, els would have won 3 in a year. DiMarco would have won 2 in a year, phil would have done 3 in a year and so on. Now it's just the same nobodies who would have had no chance back in 2000.
[/quote]

Lol this is a ridiculous point given that Sergio actually won a lot more in Tiger's era than he does now!

1 Pga tour win post 2009 vs 7 pre 2009
3 Euro wins vs 8 pre 2009.

[Scotty1140]

[quote name='Dave230' timestamp='1437477170' post='11990918']
[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1437476262' post='11990882']
Why is it that people look to anyone with success and assume their "era" was weak? So rather than have Jack and Tiger's records, would it have been better to watch 40 different guys win one tournament a year? Is that the only way we have a great era of golf? Maybe it's just my approach, but I just tend to think of Jack and Tiger and once in a generation golfers. And Jordan and Rory appear to be built for the long haul as well.

I wondered how long it would take for Speith and McIlroy's "era" to weaken...
[/quote]

And if there were 40 different winners then it would definitely be called a weak era because it had no outstanding player...
[/quote]
Maybe. Either way everyone just keeps talking in a circle haha

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1437479715' post='11991036']
The more capitalized a sport gets in terms of talent, the harder it will be for a handfull of people to dominate. We see less dynasties in major sports, and less individuals putting up gaudy numbers. The irony is that the obvious effects of an era being stronger get used as an argument that's its weaker
[/quote]

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic, Kelly Slater(43!).

Or talent is just talent and the atg's are just rare occurrences.

[dbleag]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437458337' post='11990500']
This is not a knock on Jordan Speith who is a talented young player, but the fact that a 22 year old who doesn't do anything incredibly, and is 30 yards shorter that Rory, almost won 3 majors in a row suggests something is amiss. At first I was confused and then I looked at the leader board this weekend and also thought about the broader competition he competes against. What I saw was guys like Mickelson who even though a great player is now closer to the Champions Tour than his prime, a prime that Tiger competed against and dominated. The same can be said for Furyk. Then there is Harrington who had a purple patch several years ago but is the definition of a player grinding the most out of his talent, and at 43 he still challenged the leader board. Also we saw the perennial "too-mentally-weak-to-win" nearly men in Dustin Johnson, Sergio Garcia (the old version), Ricky Fowler and Jason Day. The guys who make it look like a deep, talented field but are really just helping tv ratings whilst commentators try to sell you on their talent. The best of the rest was Adam Scott, Tiger Woods -2.0, who is should be an ultimate gauge of the strength of the tour. The only thing he had in common with Tiger was his swing and only won a major once the older talent declined. And bringing up the rear are the solid tour pros like Leishman, Rose, Westhouse-zen, Donald, Streb, Horschel and Zack Johnson who ultimately won.

Where have all the great players gone? Where are all the prime Palmer's, Casper's, Faldo's, Player's, Langer's, Trevino's, Snead's, Mickelson's, Furyk's, Singh' etc guys who were talented and mentally tough as nails. All I hear is that "the fields are so deep now". Sure, but where are the super talented guys at the very top that can crush it in Majors. The old guys from Tiger's era are still challenging the young 'stars' who can't get it done. That opened the door for a guy like Speith to come along and play consistent golf and show a bit of composure. And if thats all it takes to almost win 3 majors in a row then its clear there is a lot of snake oil being sold at the moment. Its like going to a restaurant with 200 'good' dishes on the menu and nothing truly delicious.

This is undoubtedly a weak era and I hope it doesn't last too long.
[/quote]

Spieth is a combination of many of the players you mention, above.

There is only room for 1 "top" player at a time. The rest are just jockeying for position. Spieth will have many classic battles over the years with Rory, Jason Day,Ricky, A. Scott, D. Johnson, J. Rose and others. Surely Tiger and Phil will mount a few last charges.

Spieth is more like Tom Watson, and may end up with a similar or better career.

To me, he and his style is great for the game.

[NoTalentLefty]

Dan Jenkins stop saying its a weak era. Jordan Spieth isn't super long but long enough.

[jmvargas]

[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1437481109' post='11991106']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437458337' post='11990500']
This is not a knock on Jordan Speith who is a talented young player, but the fact that a 22 year old who doesn't do anything incredibly, and is 30 yards shorter that Rory, almost won 3 majors in a row suggests something is amiss. At first I was confused and then I looked at the leader board this weekend and also thought about the broader competition he competes against. What I saw was guys like Mickelson who even though a great player is now closer to the Champions Tour than his prime, a prime that Tiger competed against and dominated. The same can be said for Furyk. Then there is Harrington who had a purple patch several years ago but is the definition of a player grinding the most out of his talent, and at 43 he still challenged the leader board. Also we saw the perennial "too-mentally-weak-to-win" nearly men in Dustin Johnson, Sergio Garcia (the old version), Ricky Fowler and Jason Day. The guys who make it look like a deep, talented field but are really just helping tv ratings whilst commentators try to sell you on their talent. The best of the rest was Adam Scott, Tiger Woods -2.0, who is should be an ultimate gauge of the strength of the tour. The only thing he had in common with Tiger was his swing and only won a major once the older talent declined. And bringing up the rear are the solid tour pros like Leishman, Rose, Westhouse-zen, Donald, Streb, Horschel and Zack Johnson who ultimately won.

Where have all the great players gone? Where are all the prime Palmer's, Casper's, Faldo's, Player's, Langer's, Trevino's, Snead's, Mickelson's, Furyk's, Singh' etc guys who were talented and mentally tough as nails. All I hear is that "the fields are so deep now". Sure, but where are the super talented guys at the very top that can crush it in Majors. The old guys from Tiger's era are still challenging the young 'stars' who can't get it done. That opened the door for a guy like Speith to come along and play consistent golf and show a bit of composure. And if thats all it takes to almost win 3 majors in a row then its clear there is a lot of snake oil being sold at the moment. Its like going to a restaurant with 200 'good' dishes on the menu and nothing truly delicious.

This is undoubtedly a weak era and I hope it doesn't last too long.
[/quote]

Spieth is a combination of many of the players you mention, above.

There is only room for 1 "top" player at a time. The rest are just jockeying for position. Spieth will have many classic battles over the years with Rory, Jason Day,Ricky, A. Scott, D. Johnson, J. Rose and others. Surely Tiger and Phil will mount a few last charges.

Spieth is more like Tom Watson, and may end up with a similar or better career.

To me, he and his style is great for the game.
[/quote]


....+1.

[rafal]

Spieth is great for golf in ways that Dustin Johnson could never be. Listen to him speak.

I just can't at people who want to make golf a glorified Long Drive competition. It's such a shame.

[f5joe]

Wow, what an incredibly odd observation OP. Are you actually paying attention?

[T Shaf]

[quote name='Bear Trader' timestamp='1437468892' post='11990700']
Just look at the people contending all the time in Majors - Day, Scott, DJ, Sergio e.t.c add the total number of wins they have and you will see this era is a joke. Compare that to [size=5][b]Tiger, Phil, Els, Monty,[/b][/size] e.t.c and you will see a clear difference.
[/quote]

one of these is not like the others...



let's have this conversation in 10 years...the fact is Rory, Spieth, Day, Rickie have many years to go to strengthen this so called "weak" era that's just begun.

[DrunkenTiger]

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1437460024' post='11990544']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437459563' post='11990536']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1437459011' post='11990522']
Oh sweet! Another hot "back in my day,.." take.

Its impossible to compare the present and unknown future to a known and recorded past. At least without overlaying your own bias on either or both eras you're judging. You've done well there. So props.
[/quote]

The present as you call it has already taken place. Speith won 2 consecutive majors and nearly a third. The competition he faced is also known and their records (and some go back 20 years) are there to inspect.
[/quote]
The ones that go back 20years are not part of The Spieth, McilRoy, D. Johnson, Day etc era. Thats just beginning. You could have written this same thread last year and asked "Whos going to challenge Rory in this weak era damnit?" And that would have been silly today.
[/quote]This is exactly true-

"This" era did not start in April of 2015, LMAO-

While Tiger's star may have faded, "This" era is no stronger or weaker than the vast majority down through the years.

The one thing regarding Jordan Speith that I have filed away and has influenced me since I added him to my standard Majors' slelections that I had picked since 2010(Ernie, Adam & Luke) was based on the feedback of a Fellow Walker Cupper Teammate of Jordan's who, as a Mid-Am and one of the Team's oldest members, was more or less tasked with the responsibility of being Jordan's Mentor & Big Bro if you will, as Jordan was 17 months younger than anyone on the team-

A few of his observations-

Jordan was mature beyond his years.

As the youngest Team Member, he was well aware that he would be the target of the usual light hearted banter and "hazing" that went on(let's please not forget that these are Golfers so it's not like the activities that you would have participated in as a freshman on my college football team ), and he took it very well and won every Team Member over-

Jordan was the finest Player on a Talent Laden Team-

This Team, led by two Bama AA's, ranked #'s 1 & 3 in the Nation, also had AA's in every Non-Mid Am spot-

Jordan didn't bother with the rest of the Team-

He played the two Bama bois in money practice rounds and beat them like drums in a MP format.

And just to prove it was no fluke, he beat the #1 ranked boi again, worse than the first match-

This Mid-Am, himself a storied Player, who has played with the best Ams in the world for the last 12-14 years, said that while there were some great Players no doubt, Jordan Speith was in a class by himself.

He stated that barring any unforeseen injuries, Jordan would be good for AT LEAST 5-6 Majors-

This Gent is not prone to hyperbale, and in fact is very soft spoken and I said "Wait a minute, how many," and he softly repeated, "5-6, easy."

I then added Jordan to my Majors' threesome list.

Regarding Jordan's Length, and this is what I find most amusing because when Jordan has to have it, and THIS my Friends is a signature of the Great Ones, he wills himself and produces a 300yd + drive.

He has played the longest courses on the face of this earth and laid waste to whomever stood on the tee with him.

He drives it far enough to beat your A**, Nomatter What your name is-

This is something else that the vast vast majority of golfers, both on this board and across the globe just do not get, though this is why 98%+ cannot break 100 playin it down and out-

It ain't about the drives-

It ain't about the approach irons-

And no, it ain't about the putting-

And it sure the hell ain't about the field or the era, LMAO

It's about what's in that 5-5.5" space between Jordan Speith's ears-

He believes in his mind that he is Great, and he is definitely Better than anyone he stands on a tee with, and he knows that if he is coming down 18 FW with a chance to get it done, He will indeed hit the shots needed to emerge victorious.

THAT mindset Gents, transcends fields, decades & eras.

His is the mind set of the Greatest Champions-

Walter Hagen

Ben Hogan

Jack Nicklaus

Tiger Woods

You could take those four Men, drop them in ANY era, and they would emerge unscathed & Victorious, as a Champion ALWAYS does-

I believe that Jordan Speith has that mind set-

Will he end up being spoken of in the same breath as those four Champions?

Only time will tell-

However Please, take the discussion up a level or two and choose something different than "weak era" or "doesn't hit it long enough," LMAO

Don't forget, the same thing was said about Ben Hogan-

However he possessed the single greatest trait that a Champion can possess-

He was blind and deaf to any thoughts, views or opinions that were written or spoken by anyone but himself-

Jordan possesses this same trait-

Well, KYMs, as usual, excellent posts Bro!!

Please pardon the typos, as I'll clean em up, but you know what time it is, lol

I hope that you're well and it's all Fairways & Greens for Ya

As Always,

My Best,
Richard

[cdnglf]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437458337' post='11990500']
Where have all the great players gone? Where are all the prime Palmer's, Casper's, Faldo's, Player's, Langer's, Trevino's, Snead's, Mickelson's, Furyk's, Singh'
[/quote]

Definitely a weak era for punctuation.

[Gem]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1437481266' post='11991116']
Spieth is great for golf in ways that Dustin Johnson could never be. Listen to him speak.

I just can't at people who want to make golf a glorified Long Drive competition. It's such a shame.
[/quote]

Unfortunately courses are set up to suit the bombers. St Andrews didn't suit one type of player as it was all about getting close to the pins. Great to see some of the shotmaking this Open and from all player types.

[The Pearl]

From a pure logic stand point, the fact that a player is dominate in his era could be interpreted as a sign that the era was weak and therefore by point of contradiction because there is not one dominant player in an era could signify that the era is in fact strong.

With that generic statement out of the way, there is no debate that today's fields are deeper than ever. Along with the deeper fields we are seeing an unprecedented time in golf where more players are capable of winning. The sophisticated junior and college programs, along with the super competitive Web.com tour have provided a "minor league" training ground were guys are learning how to win before they get to the tour.

Deeper fields, with more players having a "higher probability" of winning than in the past, makes the accomplishment of winning harder statistically.

[legitimategolf]

I think an argument can be made for the weakness of any era. One argument that comes to mind is Rickie Fowler, who is considered one of the top players of his generation. I wonder how he would be looked upon had he existed in prior eras. I.e. would a player with Rickie's resume so far have become such a big star if was competing against Nicklaus, Watson, Trevino, Seve, etc. Rickie is a great kid, but he does make a case for the weakness of this era, when you consider his reputation against his resume. People make it sound like he is the ultimate major championship competitor of our times. Maybe he is, I'm just not seeing it.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437480941' post='11991096']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1437479715' post='11991036']
The more capitalized a sport gets in terms of talent, the harder it will be for a handfull of people to dominate. We see less dynasties in major sports, and less individuals putting up gaudy numbers. The irony is that the obvious effects of an era being stronger get used as an argument that's its weaker
[/quote]

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic, Kelly Slater(43!).

Or talent is just talent and the atg's are just rare occurrences.
[/quote]

Is tennis more popular now then it was on a global scale 25 years ago? I'm not sure. Tennis you still see dominance as you say but I'm not sure tennis has become more capitalized. If anything it seems to have become less popular in the US, but maybe I am wrong

[Gem]

[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1437481109' post='11991106']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437458337' post='11990500']
This is not a knock on Jordan Speith who is a talented young player, but the fact that a 22 year old who doesn't do anything incredibly, and is 30 yards shorter that Rory, almost won 3 majors in a row suggests something is amiss. At first I was confused and then I looked at the leader board this weekend and also thought about the broader competition he competes against. What I saw was guys like Mickelson who even though a great player is now closer to the Champions Tour than his prime, a prime that Tiger competed against and dominated. The same can be said for Furyk. Then there is Harrington who had a purple patch several years ago but is the definition of a player grinding the most out of his talent, and at 43 he still challenged the leader board. Also we saw the perennial "too-mentally-weak-to-win" nearly men in Dustin Johnson, Sergio Garcia (the old version), Ricky Fowler and Jason Day. The guys who make it look like a deep, talented field but are really just helping tv ratings whilst commentators try to sell you on their talent. The best of the rest was Adam Scott, Tiger Woods -2.0, who is should be an ultimate gauge of the strength of the tour. The only thing he had in common with Tiger was his swing and only won a major once the older talent declined. And bringing up the rear are the solid tour pros like Leishman, Rose, Westhouse-zen, Donald, Streb, Horschel and Zack Johnson who ultimately won.

Where have all the great players gone? Where are all the prime Palmer's, Casper's, Faldo's, Player's, Langer's, Trevino's, Snead's, Mickelson's, Furyk's, Singh' etc guys who were talented and mentally tough as nails. All I hear is that "the fields are so deep now". Sure, but where are the super talented guys at the very top that can crush it in Majors. The old guys from Tiger's era are still challenging the young 'stars' who can't get it done. That opened the door for a guy like Speith to come along and play consistent golf and show a bit of composure. And if thats all it takes to almost win 3 majors in a row then its clear there is a lot of snake oil being sold at the moment. Its like going to a restaurant with 200 'good' dishes on the menu and nothing truly delicious.

This is undoubtedly a weak era and I hope it doesn't last too long.
[/quote]

Spieth is a combination of many of the players you mention, above.

There is only room for 1 "top" player at a time. The rest are just jockeying for position. Spieth will have many classic battles over the years with Rory, Jason Day,Ricky, A. Scott, D. Johnson, J. Rose and others. Surely Tiger and Phil will mount a few last charges.

Spieth is more like Tom Watson, and may end up with a similar or better career.

To me, he and his style is great for the game.
[/quote]

I think Tom Watson was a better ball striker than Jordan but Speith has a fantastic mental strength, pretty similar to Jack's and Tiger's. I just can't believe he missed the put on 17 then hit such a poor drive on the last. Really looking forward to the next few years with all the yound talent coming to the fore now.

I must admit though I am already a bit fed up with the constant whining from Jorday during every round, so much so that I am starting to root for almost anyone but him to win. Won't stop me from admiring his golfing skill though. Very much like Tigers once he lost his driving. He was still able to win when really toiling with the driver and showed an amazing ability to score well. Jordan has this in abundance.

[The Pearl]

I sure do miss the days of Rocco, DiMarco, Bob May, and Shaun Micheel.

[Soloman1]

Don't be too hard on the original poster. I mean, consider the name he created for himself...

[tatertot]

When did we turn into GolfTrollWRX?

[The Pearl]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437463066' post='11990592'] [quote name='FargoRC' timestamp='1437462269' post='11990582'] What is the biggest equalizer in golf? Putting. What Spieth is doing would translate in any era. You make a lot of putts and you are going to be bringing home some hardware or finishing high on the leaderboard. This isn't exactly something new. [/quote] True and his accuracy is good too. But Tiger Woods 10 years ago would have crushed this era and that includes Speith. [/quote]

Probably so but you have crossed the Logical Mendoza Line. "Tiger crushed everybody, but he was crushing good players like DiMarco, May, Micheel, Rocco, so it was a good era and Tiger would crush everybody now like Speith, Rory, Louie, ZJ, so it is a bad era.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1437488211' post='11991774']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1437463066' post='11990592'] [quote name='FargoRC' timestamp='1437462269' post='11990582'] What is the biggest equalizer in golf? Putting. What Spieth is doing would translate in any era. You make a lot of putts and you are going to be bringing home some hardware or finishing high on the leaderboard. This isn't exactly something new. [/quote] True and his accuracy is good too. But Tiger Woods 10 years ago would have crushed this era and that includes Speith. [/quote]

Probably so but you have crossed the Logical Mendoza Line. "Tiger crushed everybody, but he was crushing good players like DiMarco, May, Micheel, Rocco, so it was a good era and Tiger would crush everybody now like Speith, Rory, Louie, ZJ, so it is a bad era.
[/quote]

An odd way to frame it picking the freak major winners in the past 15 years. He also beat everyone else including HOF players. Most of the time. The only player you could say Tiger would have struggled to outperform on occasion even when playing well is Rory. It would be like Nadal vs Djokovic. Hard to pick a winner and everyone else should just sit back and enjoy the show.

Gimme a break with Zack Johnson and Oosthuizen.

[tw_focus]

TW and Rors are the best players on tour, when they work out their issues (swing / injury / mental). The best will always rise to the top. Just wait a short while, TW and Rors will rise to the top again.

Agree that it does show you what a weak tour it is when Spieth is able to nearly win 3 majors in a row with boring, lackluster golf.

[Lodestone]

[quote name='tw_focus' timestamp='1437489771' post='11991938']
TW and Rors are the best players on tour, when they work out their issues (swing / injury / mental). The best will always rise to the top. Just wait a short while, TW and Rors will rise to the top again.

Agree that it does show you what a weak tour it is when Spieth is able to nearly win 3 majors in a row with boring, lackluster golf.
[/quote]

Rory I'll buy. TW??? I think you are living in the past with that one.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1437487433' post='11991688']
I sure do miss the days of Rocco, DiMarco, Bob May, and Shaun Micheel.
[/quote]


2005 OWGR.

Ranking Player Country Average Points Events
1 (2) Tiger Woods USA 17.16 755.20 44
2 (1) Vijay Singh Fij 9.78 615.93 63
3 (5) Phil Mickelson USA 8.14 366.25 45
4 (4) Retief Goosen SAf 8.10 429.35 53
5 (3) Ernie Els SAf 8.03 377.43 47
6 (7) Sergio Garcia Spn 7.23 332.41 46
7 (21) Jim Furyk USA 5.80 237.80 41
8 (81) Colin Montgomerie Sco 4.78 267.43 56
9 (11) Adam Scott Aus 4.68 234.19 50
10 (15) Chris DiMarco USA 4.58 233.81 51

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='tw_focus' timestamp='1437489771' post='11991938']
TW and Rors are the best players on tour, when they work out their issues (swing / injury / mental). The best will always rise to the top. Just wait a short while, TW and Rors will rise to the top again.

Agree that it does show you what a weak tour it is when Spieth is able to nearly win 3 majors in a row with boring, lackluster golf.
[/quote]

Tiger is not one of the best players on tour right now. He may get things worked out and contend again, and grab a win or two. But I think to say he will be at the top again is wishful thinking. Rory and Speith could develope into the best rivarly of all time.

Boring, lackluster is how Jack won. Tiger won hitting it all over the world and getting up and down from everywhere. Common denomiator......they both won.

[Bear Trader]

Funny Phil won at the Open during the weakest era. He had no chance back when the likes of Tiger, Els, Duval, [quote name='T Shaf' timestamp='1437484742' post='11991430']
[quote name='Bear Trader' timestamp='1437468892' post='11990700']
Just look at the people contending all the time in Majors - Day, Scott, DJ, Sergio e.t.c add the total number of wins they have and you will see this era is a joke. Compare that to [size=5][b]Tiger, Phil, Els, Monty,[/b][/size] e.t.c and you will see a clear difference.
[/quote]

one of these is not like the others...



let's have this conversation in 10 years...the fact is Rory, Spieth, Day, Rickie have many years to go to strengthen this so called "weak" era that's just begun.
[/quote]


Why wait 10years - we are being told thay this era is stronger than any era so you are saying Rory+Spieth+Day+Rickie > Prime Tiger+Phil+Els+Singh LMAO!! GTFO!!!

[Bear Trader]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1437487433' post='11991688']
I sure do miss the days of Rocco, DiMarco, Bob May, and Shaun Micheel.
[/quote]


Those guys brought it on the final day which is not something that could be said about the chokers - like Day, Dustin and Rickie.