Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[BIG STU]

52 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

My understanding is that lithium prices have been actually plunging in part due to over mining. And could remain soft until 2025. This will keep prices for EVs competitive and that’s the key, price. 
 

Im not surprised Ford can’t sell ev trucks, lol, traditional pickup truck buyers doing strike me as the prime ev market. 
 

But the next gen of ev batteries, solid state, is being developed, Toyota is supposedly rolling out cars in a “couple of years” with solid state batteries with far more range and charge much faster. 
 

EVs are still in very early stages right now. Gotta keep that in mind. It’s just a question of when they are cheap enough with enough range/fast charge to be just as appealing to the average car buyer. 

According to the local media they have some Japanese investors that are going to spend a bunch putting in a new Lithium battery plant. This is up in the Florence SC area. The media and politicians are falling all over themselves over that. I do not see it ever getting off the ground due to what is mainly happening to Ford. In that area they will have to import help

[bscinstnct]

24 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

if acceleration and driving performance is a primary buying/leasing consideration, then i can appreciate the ev choice.

 

however, far more people think of cars as simply transportation. it’s evident in sales and a look at other cars on the road. like the difference between the majority of golfers and gear head wrx golfers.

 

cost is still a driver for the majority of people and the premium for ev’s is steep.

 

early adopters shook out the drawbacks of ev’s.

 

insurance rates are about 20% higher

 

repair costs so high that cars are scrapped as a total loss compared to ice cars with similar repairable damage

 

battery capacity reduces up to 30% after 4 years. 30% less range

 

high cost of replacement batteries, if replaceable at all. $8,000 - $30,000 for a new battery. that’s why a lease makes more sense. just drop off the keys when done.

 

solid state batteries are certainly better. non flammable, stable, higher energy density, good cold/hot performance and more charging cycles.

 

the idea that they will be cheaper is probably wishful thinking. different manufacturing process and the battery factories being built today are not going to be scraped. solid state will be artificially held back until those factories and supply chain have worn out.

 

i’m still respectfully unconvinced that the average person is willing to pay the premium for an ev.

 

driving environmental guilt down to the consumer by simply looking at the tailpipe doesn’t change anything overall.

 

and electricity still isn’t growing on trees.

 

for those with the financial means and preference, sure. but $1,400 + per month for a car? that’s a hard pill to swallow for what, 80% of the country?

 

---

 

i gotta go hustle, uh, play some golf today to pay some bills. 🙂

 

 

“i’m still respectfully unconvinced that the average person is willing to pay the premium for an ev.

 

driving environmental guilt down to the consumer by simply looking at the tailpipe doesn’t change anything overall.”

 

Agree 100%

 

Ultimately it will come down to price/cost of ownership, range, ease of refueling for the average person

 

Thats why EVs are generally higher priced cars in the US. 
 

But you got Toyota and the rest of the industry pouring tens of billions into development and eventually we will see 

 

Average customers walk in a showroom for an average car and se EVs at equal price to gas cars. 

[Nard_S]

The most compelling reason EV's will take hold and gain significant market share is they use 40% less parts. 40% less engineering & sourcing. A future model is your car resembles your phone plan, you never really own it too. The slow-motion crash is the grid and the demand. Where's the juice? It's already projected data demand will rise a lot, so what's left is parsed between the big LCD and your car. So what happens to electrical rates when energy plants cannot be built and fuels remain in ground? They skyrocket and cost benefits evaporate. But it will probably happen and yet there still be a 700 HP V8 available in a truck or retro coupe. 20 years ago there were too many car companies, there's even more now. The industry will see consolidation. My bet is a big three will go down before Tesla but many more worldwide will fail too. This could all be a real positive but without cheap energy, net for the consumer is possibly a loss that is greater than just MSRP. Rolling blackouts, decreased mobility, higher costs for those Amazon & Door Dash buys.

[Jim53]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

I’ve been a Jamey fan for the past 25 or so years. However, they have another in the Jameson line called “Black Barrel”. That has supplanted the original as my favorite. Give it a try Jim and tell me what you think.

I just got the small bottle 

[nitram]

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/09/23/blueoval-city-groundbreaking.html

25 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

According to the local media they have some Japanese investors that are going to spend a bunch putting in a new Lithium battery plant. This is up in the Florence SC area. The media and politicians are falling all over themselves over that. I do not see it ever getting off the ground due to what is mainly happening to Ford. In that area they will have to import help

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/09/23/blueoval-city-groundbreaking.html

 

https://patriotpost.us/articles/105546-rnc-a-bloodbath-is-coming-for-the-us-auto-industry-2024-03-28

Edited April 3 by nitram

[nitram]

11 minutes ago, Jim53 said:

I just got the small bottle 

It should last a night or two . . .

[Petethreeput]

Let's start this off saying, I know nothing about anything, but I do think the EV/ non-ICE phenomenon is here to stay.  The American public delights in what CANT be done rather than what can be done, even though folks consistently exceed the naysayers.  We can rationalize anything, and with the current news cycles we don't even have to do it anymore, some dolled up blond does it for us to garner ratings.  I also believe Tesla is in trouble.  As a start up investors were giddy regardless of the mounting losses because auto manufacturing is super capital intensive.  The share price was based on potential, but after 5 years or so, valuations are based on performance.  The loss of the Chinese market as well as their well documented production issues will eventually lead to either, a come to the lord moment or the assimilation by an actual car maker.

 

If I needed a car, my '11 Prius is still killing it, I would seriously consider an EV as a replacement even though I think engine tech is about to explode and I expect Toyota to take the non-ICE engine into realms we haven't seen by 2027.  I am hoping my Prius makes it until then, honestly.  Of course, this is all based on the premise that in a world of 6B people no one does anything stupid like start WWIII, which seems increasingly less likely.  Until then though, I will lament my horrendous golf swing, the likelihood of Tiger finishing the '24 Masters, and whether Brooks and Bryson really didn't like each other or they just wanted to break into the news cycle.    

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

My understanding is that lithium prices have been actually plunging in part due to over mining. And could remain soft until 2025. This will keep prices for EVs competitive and that’s the key, price. 
 

Im not surprised Ford can’t sell ev trucks, lol, traditional pickup truck buyers doing strike me as the prime ev market. 
 

But the next gen of ev batteries, solid state, is being developed, Toyota is supposedly rolling out cars in a “couple of years” with solid state batteries with far more range and charge much faster. 
 

EVs are still in very early stages right now. Gotta keep that in mind. It’s just a question of when they are cheap enough with enough range/fast charge to be just as appealing to the average car buyer. 

I’m not really even talking lowering costs etc , as in market factors and where it will go.  I’m saying it’s DOA.   No section of that deal  is sustainable.  Not the child/slave labor digging up cobalt and lithium. Not the electric grid here.  Not the battery tech … not the huge amount of waste from both production and after use and certainly not the $50k plus price for a Toyota Corolla equivalent car.  

 

And mainstream EVs are almost 30 years old now.  https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=1999 Ford Ranger XL Electric NIMH (California)&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#wptab=si:AKbGX_pOa1b2dv2TLMVyWP3gfavaGxtt8_IcjFLuhMtL3zbc7vVwPmEowic8lE5-wNu1CnRk9vKL0ktTq-8xVM_Gcp0GZvR3KlljGrnGQqOhor6owNVfWxw0KajNalwIW8qdUTylFgAKOy4O7WlA4ED3G0clQZfEna7v91pmjcv7-h4iFD9hpW7m0KNo0yH9JsBkT-Ei3NSw
 

They’ve never caught on because they’re cost prohibitive. And dangerous to charge and store indoors.  

 

they’ll have to get sub $25k to make sense. I don’t see it being possible unless we start importing Chinese models.  The cheap models of these things are literally equivalent to base model compact sedans in gas.  And cost double.  The nicer models are priced right beside your high end European suv or sports car.  The benefit isn’t clear.  It’s not price.  It’s not environmentally better , it’s not longevity , it’s not resale ( post 5 year mark they plummet to the ocean floor ). It’s simply a fad that signals mindset.  Similar to these trucks with black wheels poking out 3 feet etc. it’s a club.    Disagree ?  Sell it to me.  Sell me on why .  I cannot figure out the why.  

[Double Mocha Man]

5 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

Let's start this off saying, I know nothing about anything, but I do think the EV/ non-ICE phenomenon is here to stay.  The American public delights in what CANT be done rather than what can be done, even though folks consistently exceed the naysayers.  We can rationalize anything, and with the current news cycles we don't even have to do it anymore, some dolled up blond does it for us to garner ratings.  I also believe Tesla is in trouble.  As a start up investors were giddy regardless of the mounting losses because auto manufacturing is super capital intensive.  The share price was based on potential, but after 5 years or so, valuations are based on performance.  The loss of the Chinese market as well as their well documented production issues will eventually lead to either, a come to the lord moment or the assimilation by an actual car maker.

 

If I needed a car, my '11 Prius is still killing it, I would seriously consider an EV as a replacement even though I think engine tech is about to explode and I expect Toyota to take the non-ICE engine into realms we haven't seen by 2027.  I am hoping my Prius makes it until then, honestly.  Of course, this is all based on the premise that in a world of 6B people no one does anything stupid like start WWIII, which seems increasingly less likely.  Until then though, I will lament my horrendous golf swing, the likelihood of Tiger finishing the '24 Masters, and whether Brooks and Bryson really didn't like each other or they just wanted to break into the news cycle.    

 

It's a win for today's best post in the Wide-Ranging category! And it's only 8:16 a.m. in the only time zone that really matters.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/09/23/blueoval-city-groundbreaking.html

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/09/23/blueoval-city-groundbreaking.html

 

https://patriotpost.us/articles/105546-rnc-a-bloodbath-is-coming-for-the-us-auto-industry-2024-03-28

Yep. It’s the completion of the 2008 intrusion into the auto market. In one breath recently Ford  cut ( laid off) half its EV employees…. then all of the sudden they’re building a new plant.  For EVs.  How ?  Why ?  Govt pressure and our money. That’s how.  They saw the boat turning around.  

[bscinstnct]

16 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not really even talking lowering costs etc , as in market factors and where it will go.  I’m saying it’s DOA.   No section of that deal  is sustainable.  Not the child/slave labor digging up cobalt and lithium. Not the electric grid here.  Not the battery tech … not the huge amount of waste from both production and after use and certainly not the $50k plus price for a Toyota Corolla equivalent car.  

 

And mainstream EVs are almost 30 years old now.  https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=1999 Ford Ranger XL Electric NIMH (California)&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#wptab=si:AKbGX_pOa1b2dv2TLMVyWP3gfavaGxtt8_IcjFLuhMtL3zbc7vVwPmEowic8lE5-wNu1CnRk9vKL0ktTq-8xVM_Gcp0GZvR3KlljGrnGQqOhor6owNVfWxw0KajNalwIW8qdUTylFgAKOy4O7WlA4ED3G0clQZfEna7v91pmjcv7-h4iFD9hpW7m0KNo0yH9JsBkT-Ei3NSw
 

They’ve never caught on because they’re cost prohibitive. And dangerous to charge and store indoors.  

 

they’ll have to get sub $25k to make sense. I don’t see it being possible unless we start importing Chinese models.  The cheap models of these things are literally equivalent to base model compact sedans in gas.  And cost double.  The nicer models are priced right beside your high end European suv or sports car.  The benefit isn’t clear.  It’s not price.  It’s not environmentally better , it’s not longevity , it’s not resale ( post 5 year mark they plummet to the ocean floor ). It’s simply a fad that signals mindset.  Similar to these trucks with black wheels poking out 3 feet etc. it’s a club.    Disagree ?  Sell it to me.  Sell me on why .  I cannot figure out the why.  

 

I appreciate this blade 

 

Toyota is thinking about this differently and will plan to sell the exact same car models (sub 25k included) in both EV or gas…at the same price 

 

In fact, they may plan to offer the EVs cheaper to gain share over competitors 

 

There are challenges but it seems clear that’s where this is going 

[Soloman1]

12 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

EVs? Be 25-30% of new cars sold in the US by 2030. Even higher internationally.

 

China already like 25% new cars sold are EVs

 

the us doesn’t have, and can’t build the electrical generating and transmission capacity for the plan of 25-30% ev’s by 2030.

 

“everybody’s got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” - philosopher mike tyson.

 

again, china has been building a coal fired generating plant every week for the past few years.

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I appreciate this blade 

 

Toyota is thinking about this differently and will plan to sell the exact same car models (sub 25k included) in both EV or gas…at the same price 

 

In fact, they may plan to offer the EVs cheaper to gain share over competitors 

 

There are challenges but it seems clear that’s where this is going 

If they do it , fair enough. As long as it isn’t priced low because of taxpayer subsidies. That’s a false flag bargain.  At best. Forced compliance at worst.  

 

it’s funny how this turned.  For 10 years Toyota has been screaming “ hydrogen cell” …. And I understood them to be close to a salable model a while back.  Has this been scrapped ?  

[Soloman1]

japan, the breakout innovator of modern electric vehicles with the prius in 1997, sells about 2% ev’s domestically. hybrids are the choice. electrical capacity and inconvenience rears its ugly head again.

 

but, they’re happy to build ev’s to satisfy the pipedreams of others. 🙂

 

[Soloman1]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

If they do it , fair enough. As long as it isn’t priced low because of taxpayer subsidies. That’s a false flag bargain.  At best. Forced compliance at worst.  

 

it’s funny how this turned.  For 10 years Toyota has been screaming “ hydrogen cell” …. And I understood them to be close to a salable model a while back.  Has this been scrapped ?  

 

1/6th energy of an equivalent volume of gasoline. gonna need a cooled tank 6 times as big as your gas tank. maybe a trailer pulled behind your car?

 

long way off.

[bscinstnct]

17 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

the us doesn’t have, and can’t build the electrical generating and transmission capacity for the plan of 25-30% ev’s by 2030.

 

“everybody’s got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” - philosopher mike tyson.

 

again, china has been building a coal fired generating plant every week for the past few years.

 

McKinsey

 

“Could electric vehicles (EVs) soon face a different kind of gridlock? With the electrification of mobilityaccelerating, energy producers and distributors need to understand the potential impact of EVs on electricity demand (Exhibit 1). The good news: McKinsey analysis suggests the projected growth in e-mobility will not drive substantial increases in total electrical-grid power demand in the near to midterm, thus limiting the need for new electricity-generation capacity during that period.“

 

 

 

Lotta good stuff in here..,

 

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-potential-impact-of-electric-vehicles-on-global-energy-systems

 

 

 

 

[Soloman1]

i’ve reached my limit of thinking and words for one day. 🙂

 

want clean electrical energy and lots of it? it’s simple.

 

build smaller nuclear power plants where the capacity is needed with less transmission costs.

[Soloman1]

4 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

McKinsey

 

“Could electric vehicles (EVs) soon face a different kind of gridlock? With the electrification of mobilityaccelerating, energy producers and distributors need to understand the potential impact of EVs on electricity demand (Exhibit 1). The good news: McKinsey analysis suggests the projected growth in e-mobility will not drive substantial increases in total electrical-grid power demand in the near to midterm, thus limiting the need for new electricity-generation capacity during that period.“

 

 

 

Lotta good stuff in here..,

 

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-potential-impact-of-electric-vehicles-on-global-energy-systems

 

 

 

 

 

 

written in 2018, though. things different with ev mandates now.

[BIG STU]

16 hours ago, braincramp52 said:

That's one thing I do right. If they call me and their name isn't in my phone , they get no answer.

Same here---- If it is legit they can leave a message if not screw them

[mshills]

4 hours ago, braincramp52 said:

I see a few EV's around here but the fact is they just aren't practical because of the weather. I think I saw where at 20°F they lose 41% of their efficiency. I've seen it where we haven't gotten above 20 for weeks. We have 4 charging stations in the entire county. I do love my electric push cart though.😄

Hence my point about home charging. I would be hard pressed to own one if I didn’t have the convenience of plugging up at night, and no efficiency loss would be enough for me to be short of capacity during a single day use. However, my use isn’t everyone’s use, I get that. 

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

 

“i’m still respectfully unconvinced that the average person is willing to pay the premium for an ev.

 

driving environmental guilt down to the consumer by simply looking at the tailpipe doesn’t change anything overall.”

 

Agree 100%

 

Ultimately it will come down to price/cost of ownership, range, ease of refueling for the average person

 

Thats why EVs are generally higher priced cars in the US. 
 

But you got Toyota and the rest of the industry pouring tens of billions into development and eventually we will see 

 

Average customers walk in a showroom for an average car and se EVs at equal price to gas cars. 

Just saw this on one of my news feeds. New Jersey is putting an additional road use tax of $250 per year on EV vehicles that stays fixed for 4 years then it increases. If one buys a EV in Jersey the 4 year tax has to be paid up front. 

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not really even talking lowering costs etc , as in market factors and where it will go.  I’m saying it’s DOA.   No section of that deal  is sustainable.  Not the child/slave labor digging up cobalt and lithium. Not the electric grid here.  Not the battery tech … not the huge amount of waste from both production and after use and certainly not the $50k plus price for a Toyota Corolla equivalent car.  

 

And mainstream EVs are almost 30 years old now.  https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=1999 Ford Ranger XL Electric NIMH (California)&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#wptab=si:AKbGX_pOa1b2dv2TLMVyWP3gfavaGxtt8_IcjFLuhMtL3zbc7vVwPmEowic8lE5-wNu1CnRk9vKL0ktTq-8xVM_Gcp0GZvR3KlljGrnGQqOhor6owNVfWxw0KajNalwIW8qdUTylFgAKOy4O7WlA4ED3G0clQZfEna7v91pmjcv7-h4iFD9hpW7m0KNo0yH9JsBkT-Ei3NSw
 

They’ve never caught on because they’re cost prohibitive. And dangerous to charge and store indoors.  

 

they’ll have to get sub $25k to make sense. I don’t see it being possible unless we start importing Chinese models.  The cheap models of these things are literally equivalent to base model compact sedans in gas.  And cost double.  The nicer models are priced right beside your high end European suv or sports car.  The benefit isn’t clear.  It’s not price.  It’s not environmentally better , it’s not longevity , it’s not resale ( post 5 year mark they plummet to the ocean floor ). It’s simply a fad that signals mindset.  Similar to these trucks with black wheels poking out 3 feet etc. it’s a club.    Disagree ?  Sell it to me.  Sell me on why .  I cannot figure out the why.  

It is beyond my pay grade too.

[BIG STU]

23 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

japan, the breakout innovator of modern electric vehicles with the prius in 1997, sells about 2% ev’s domestically. hybrids are the choice. electrical capacity and inconvenience rears its ugly head again.

 

but, they’re happy to build ev’s to satisfy the pipedreams of others. 🙂

 

it is called Capitalism 101

[BIG STU]

8 minutes ago, mshills said:

Hence my point about home charging. I would be hard pressed to own one if I didn’t have the convenience of plugging up at night, and no efficiency loss would be enough for me to be short of capacity during a single day use. However, my use isn’t everyone’s use, I get that. 

The guy I know that has the "Mustang" EV says he has a charger at his house and he plugs it up just like he does his Golf cart. Now he is a businessman and has several businesses in N Myrtle and Charleston SC. He admits he only uses the Mustang around here and drives his ICE Escalade on trips to the north end and Charleston

[Soloman1]

10 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Just saw this on one of my news feeds. New Jersey is putting an additional road use tax of $250 per year on EV vehicles that stays fixed for 4 years then it increases. If one buys a EV in Jersey the 4 year tax has to be paid up front. 

 

have to make up for gasoline taxes.

 

every state and the feds will start doing it.

[mshills]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

if acceleration and driving performance is a primary buying/leasing consideration, then i can appreciate the ev choice.

 

however, far more people think of cars as simply transportation. it’s evident in sales and a look at other cars on the road. like the difference between the majority of golfers and gear head wrx golfers.

 

cost is still a driver for the majority of people and the premium for ev’s is steep.

 

early adopters shook out the drawbacks of ev’s.

 

insurance rates are about 20% higher

 

repair costs so high that cars are scrapped as a total loss compared to ice cars with similar repairable damage

 

battery capacity reduces up to 30% after 4 years. 30% less range

 

high cost of replacement batteries, if replaceable at all. $8,000 - $30,000 for a new battery. that’s why a lease makes more sense. just drop off the keys when done.

 

solid state batteries are certainly better. non flammable, stable, higher energy density, good cold/hot performance and more charging cycles.

 

the idea that they will be cheaper is probably wishful thinking. different manufacturing process and the battery factories being built today are not going to be scraped. solid state will be artificially held back until those factories and supply chain have worn out.

 

i’m still respectfully unconvinced that the average person is willing to pay the premium for an ev.

 

driving environmental guilt down to the consumer by simply looking at the tailpipe doesn’t change anything overall.

 

and electricity still isn’t growing on trees.

 

for those with the financial means and preference, sure. but $1,400 + per month for a car? that’s a hard pill to swallow for what, 80% of the country?

 

---

 

i gotta go hustle, uh, play some golf today to pay some bills. 🙂

 

Thanks for this. I’m definitely not a normal / typical buyer. I like things that are different and unique, sometimes ONLY because of the uniqueness. I enjoy being an early adopter, but I’m not early at all to the EV thing. In fact, it’s been completely frictionless so far and I won’t even have the home charger installed until next week. 
 

One man’s anecdote, my insurance cost is no higher for this vehicle than any other. In fact my 2010 Volvo carries a materially higher premium, which is strange and might be worth a call to NJM. 🙂 I think the insurance costs might be specific to Teslas — not sure, because after renting a Tesla for 2 weeks I was no longer interested in owning one and did not research it any further. 

 

I do not know why accident repairs on Teslas are so costly. 
 

On purchase cost, I don’t have a great answer there. I can say that the brokered deal I got (including several incentives available only on a lease) made the decision easy from a $ perspective. Residual over 70%, money factor below 5% apr, and selling price 10% below msrp makes for a pretty nice 2y rental price. 

[BIG STU]

3 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

have to make up for gasoline taxes.

 

every state and the feds will start doing it.

In my practical way of thinking I do not understand why the big oil companies are not raising holy hell over all this EV stuff

[BIG STU]

2 minutes ago, mshills said:

Thanks for this. I’m definitely not a normal / typical buyer. I like things that are different and unique, sometimes ONLY because of the uniqueness. I enjoy being an early adopter, but I’m not early at all to the EV thing. In fact, it’s been completely frictionless so far and I won’t even have the home charger installed until next week. 
 

One man’s anecdote, my insurance cost is no higher for this vehicle than any other. In fact my 2010 Volvo carries a materially higher premium, which is strange and might be worth a call to NJM. 🙂 I think the insurance costs might be specific to Teslas — not sure, because after renting a Tesla for 2 weeks I was no longer interested in owning one and did not research it any further. 

 

I do not know why accident repairs on Teslas are so costly. 
 

On purchase cost, I don’t have a great answer there. I can say that the brokered deal I got (including several incentives available only on a lease) made the decision easy from a $ perspective. Residual over 70%, money factor below 5% apr, and selling price 10% below msrp makes for a pretty nice 2y rental price. 

I can only speculate as to the high costs of collision damage. Parts are not available except from Tesla and they know it. Secondly it would take more than the average skilled labor to repair one for it to again to be safe and reliable. Another thing would be the shop insurance as in product liability in the future that may or may not be caused by the repair shop. You get the gist there after all we live in the era of lawsuits.

All of this is just speculating on my part

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

 

written in 2018, though. things different with ev mandates now.

 

Somewhere between 

 

EVs will be 50% of sales by 2030

 

and

 

EVs are finished!

 

 

The truth resides 😊

 

 

 

 

[mshills]

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I do not drive far any more. I drove trucks on and off all my life so I have rode enough.

Cannot blame you there. I have a ton of respect for anyone making a living driving a truck. Driving the truck is one thing, but I cannot imagine sleeping in it and living out of it. Hell to the N. O. That cannot be easy.