Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Conrad1953]

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Now this is a level of "lag" that I can NOT duplicate. Not even close, in fact.

 

Click the pause button at 1:09 and 1:10. Right along through there you see that tremendous angle between the lead arm and shaft. The shaft is almost touching his trail shoulder. Incredible.

 

It's hard to find another swing with that much lag in it. Pro or otherwise. You can pull up his driver, mid-irons, and other videos present and past. It's something he does up and down through the bag. Lot's to love in that swing but for the life of me, I don't know how he sets the wrists with that much angle and manages to carry that angle all the way down so deeply before releasing it. If I tried that, the medics would be putting casts on both wrists after the ball went went nowhere from the whiff - lol.

 

It looks like his lead wrist is very cupped at 1:10 when his lag is maxed out and then moves flat to bowed coming

into impact. Hogan was like this too and it may be how Phil is able to have that shaft angle. If I recall correctly,

Hogan had a lag angle like that too and did not flatten his lead wrist until right before impact; like Phil.

 

I have a hard time, for whatever reason, flattening my lead wrist on the backswing. It feels really uncomfortable

just trying to do it..........but I can flatten it coming into impact, like them, though I'm certainly not comparing myself

to them. I know it makes things a little more complicated but it seems to me that as long as the lead wrist is flat

at impact that's what matters as far as having the hands ahead of the club head.

 

All I can think of as far as that shaft angle is that they both must have more range of motion in their wrists than most.

Phil though is wild off the tee while Hogan was deadly accurate.

[Conrad1953]

Swing speed and lag are interesting topics for me. The minute you try to increase either it becomes an instant fail.

As it seems so often in the golf swing, these things are the result of things that happened before. When we try to

just swing faster we end up actually losing club head speed; the reason being that we are jumping the gun and

acting prematurely and trying to speed up before it's time to.

 

I remember teaching new truck drivers how to shift gears in a big truck. Most, early on, will want to wind every gear

out; thinking that they will get up to speed faster; but actually doing that makes it take longer to get up to speed. The

smarter, more experienced driver will instead get through the lower gears quickly, not winding them out and instead

wait until they get to the higher gears to wind them out. Doing it this way they not only get up to speed sooner but

also in a much smoother more efficient manner. In trucker lingo this is known as progressive shifting; winding each

gear out a little more as you go up through the gears.

 

Back to the golf swing; most try to add speed too early rather that let their speed build progressively. When a golfer

jumps the gun, so to speak, that's when we see the herky jerky swing that is actually losing speed by the time the

club head reaches the ball; the energy spent too early in the swing. That ball on the ground isn't going anywhere

until we hit it yet for some reason we feel the need to hurry on the downswing.

 

Everyone has swung a hammer hitting nails. We don't swing that hammer in a hurry because we know we will miss

the nail. We swing it nice and smooth. Neither do we flick our wrist trying to "hit" the nail. We just maintain a nice

supple wrist and let it "release" to hit the nail. If we need to hit that nail a little harder we will speed up our arm at

the last moment, which will cause our wrist to fling that hammer down hard on the nail...and we don't miss. If we tried

to speed up our arm "from the top" of our hammer swing; we risk missing the nail. We inherently know when to apply

the "speed" we need.

 

The releasing of the golf club at impact is so similar. If we wish to hit that ball hard we don't flick at hands at the ball;

we speed up our arms at the last moment; maintaining those supple wrists, and the wrists will release on their own

due to the speed of our arms and the weight of the club head forcing our wrists to release. Actually, we couldn't stop

the release from happening if we tried. We are not strong enough to stop it.

 

So much speed in the golf swing happens at the last moment. We do not need to think about or use our hands at all.

They should just be holding onto the grip. As we speed up at that last moment, the club head will "release" all on it's

own and square up as well; squaring up providing we have our hands on the grip in such a manner that matches our

swing.

 

Here is an interesing factoid. Forearm and hand strength have much to do with how much speed one can generate.

This relates directly to one's ability to hold onto the club at high speed. Your body will subconciously not allow you to

swing so fast that you can no longer hold onto the club. It will slow you down. If you have strong forearms and hands

(I don't) then you have the potential to swing faster; given that you do other things right.

 

Lag, of course, is the angle between the arms and the club shaft. Typically we reach a 90 degree angle there at the

top of our swing (some a little earlier). The idea of lag is to hold onto that angle and deliver it to the ball. Most are afraid

to do that becasue they think they can't hit the ball like that. Many will cast the club early and throw away that lag

because they don't feel comfortable holding the lag all the way to the ball. The dirty little secret though is it's impossible

to hold that lag all the way to the ball; the club head will release as you get to the ball anyway.

 

So, the longer you can hold onto that lag the better because you will have the latest possible release, generate more

speed and have that handle still leaning a little forward at impact for the best possible impact conditions.

 

Here's the rub though, consciously trying to "hold the lag" is fraught with danger. It can lead to handle pulling and other

troubles. So you want to have that lag but you don't want to be pulling your arms down. Your arms will come down on

their own as you unwind and then the centrigual force will release that stored up lag at the ball at it uncocks your wrists

for you.

 

Anyway, my thoughts on speed and lag. I think both are interrelated and all, no matter what age, can increase their speed

by understanding the mechanics in play. It's not really compilcated......but not easy to do either.

 

If there was any justice... all golfers in the world would go practice and play long enough to get some good solid shots under their belt and then would eat / sleep / drink Radro's post above day and night for about a month. There's so much good stuff in his post.

 

For starters, I SO agree that the club has to be STILL accelerating at the point of contact...as opposed to maxing out clubhead speed at the moment of impact. Flailing the arms and hands as hard as you can into the back of the ball is a great way to "cast"... thereby dumping that angle seen face-on between the shaft and lead arm way too early. The very attempt to add power (which is what happens in this case) - ends up reducing reducing clubhead speed.... not increasing it. The clubhead MUST be still accelerating at impact. Now according to the laws of the universe, it may not actually be still accelerating past the ball, since the act of contact between ball and clubhead will slow that clubhead down a bit. BUT... it has to FEEL like it's still gaining momentum PAST the ball, not AT the ball. And LAG is a huge key in getting that very thing to happen.

 

The oily-wristed effect of lag (IMO) brings forth all those things Radro points out and they're all good things. But to his point there's a point of overdose. I 100% agree that yanking downward hard on that handle and forcing a hard hand-flip is NOT lag... That's the tipping point of where the golfer is trying too hard to force a "lag" when he could more efficiently and easily generate it by simply letting the wrists HINGE and UNHINGE very fluidly. A little fraction of even adding a touch more of an angle between the shaft and lead arm as the downswing starts... KERPOW! Especially when that lead hip is clearing as discussed before.

 

Also want to add this one into the mix.

 

These things can be thought of as either going along for the ride in a swing and being passive - OR - they can be thought of being called in action and firing muscles to force things to occur. Will serve up my own thoughts on them... but to each his own. Just because I say it and work toward it doesn't make it universally true for all others who play this game. Here goes...

 

The hands... For me personally they need to be more passive than active. They "can" be when the foot and knee work get that belly turning. Therefore the lead knee (moving more back behind me coming out of transition) is active - so that the hands can be more passive.

 

The arms... this is just me talking but they are most assuredly connected to the shoulders. So in my lowly opine, I can't send the arms anywhere and can't move them faster or slower until or unless the shoulders they're connected to do the actual turning. That says the only true way the arms move faster, is when the shoulders turn faster. Now, I "could" perform what they call the "wipe move' where the hands and arms rip across a basically dead-still body I suppose. But we're talking speed here. So for me personally, the arms basically go for a ride. They start smoothly in transition, and speed up all the way to the finish rather than "at" the ball. I can have little errors in my swing and get away with them... a lethargic shoulder turn is NOT one of them. Said differently - If I start smoothly but fully accelerate the shoulder turn - it tends to hide my other mistakes.

 

In an ideal world my hands are passive and the hands are also going for a ride as the wrists unhinge. On a practical level however, I'm pretty sure there is "some" hand action through the strike. But I honestly work toward the getting the lower body to support an active shoulder turn with more or less passive hands and arms. Is it PURELY that way for me? Prolly not. I just know it's less taxing on the old body that way.

 

Really good stuff Radro. Great post!

 

Thanks for the kind words. Well, you know I'm about shoulder speed, haha. Goota keep those arms and

shoulders in synch. For me too, speeding. up the arms means speeding up the shoulders. I have to get

to bed but I have found that if you can find and post a good face on of Louis' swing you can clearly see

the burst of speed he gets at impact; very noticeable with driver seeing him swing on TV.

 

May not be good for me to be doing at my age, lol, but it doesn't add any additional pain. Tiger calls it

being "explosive". I'm too old to be "explosive" but it's fun to try!

[tolmij]

Golf swing, ding a ling, means nothing to me as I have never really looked into it, never been in a position time or finance wise to peruse it to that extent. What I do know is that I have always had a slow swing speed, try to speed it up towards the end but that always results in a rubbish shot, apart that is from my driving. Now talking lag, I know I have a really good lag on my driver, I can feel the club head way back and know it is accelerating to catch up, I know it hits the ball faster than in the downswing, I can feel exactly what is happening, never knew it was called lag.

 

Now my other clubs are a different tale, cannot for the life of me take a divot, always a divot means my club will almost stop, always picked clean. I cannot feel any lag either, I know what my driver does but I cannot replicate it with my other clubs, the driver it has become a natural stroke.

 

I will try again when I get to the club, a few weeks as yet, the course is in turmoil as they are fitting a new watering system.

[SixtySomePing]

Well it's clearly not everyone's favorite topic and I get it as to why. In the spirit of tolerance and fail play, I'm respectfully about to risk talking to myself and a small handful of those who "might" care to converse about the golf swing. Ignore - or - comment at will.

 

These are things on my own personal list of things I work on when it comes to ball striking. (On and around the greens are another post for another day).

 

"CLEARING" THE LEAD SIDE:

 

This one serves up a little bit of a conflict for me. It teeters on being more of a concept than something very specifically actionable. Does it start at the initiation of the downswing? Do the knees (and thus the hips) start the downswing whilst the backswiing is still finishing - OR - is there a fractional little pause at the top? If the lead knee is at least a little bit bowed inward toward the trail side toes at the top, then how do we smoothly get it moving back and a little behind the arse through impact? There's supposed to be a "little" lateral motion of the hips as the lower body and belly rotates through the shot. How much is a "little"? (I know too well how much it too much - lol).

 

So I have my own little ways of working through the above during practice. I find I can NOT overload and obsess about it but at the same time I pay a price if I ignore it. (Nuff said for now on that one. It's a topic I've gone bat-crap crazy working on for years.I know I "can" get to the top well and ruin it if I don't "clear" well during the downswing.)

 

FINISH POSE:

 

When I've done other things leading up to it well...

 

* Arms, hands, shaft, shoulders all come to a stop at about the same time. (versus a slowly decaying and almost forced/manufactured pose).

* Trail shoulder is my "pointer" for where to look for the ball in flight. (not my clubhead or hands or shaft).

" Trail shoulder is a touch higher than the trail shoulder. (versus 100% level to the horizon).

* From down-the-line, I'd still have some forward tilt toward the ball with the arse behind the heels DEEP into the through swing.

* From face-on, the trail knee would be lined up with the lead knee for shorter clubs, but a little space is seen for longer sticks. (stance width).

 

General Setup:

 

No clue why I own these not-so-good tendencies but I work on them religiously:

 

* Ball position too far back

* Trail foot not quite wide enoung

* Ball lined up on the hosel - or at least toward it - especially with longer clubs

* Clubface pointed to the push side.

* Too far from the ball with the hands too high.

* Too much tension - as in way too much - as in everywhere imaginable. No clue why when I know better and "can" fully relax.

 

Finishing the backswing:

 

* Trail knee stays inside (never over) the trail foot

* Lead shoulder moves more DOWN and behind the ball

* Trail elbow more UNDER the hands.

* Slowing into the finish of the backswing - with a mini "pause"

* Upper spine a little farther from target than the hip girdle

* Grip pressure from set up unchanging all the way up and back down. Wrists feeling "oily" and free to hinge and unhinge. (versus forced hand flip).

* Feeling of getting ready to move that lead hip BACK behind me more and stay in-posture until the ball is long gone.

 

LAG

 

One of my own personal swing mysteries. I like it - I need it - I get WAY more swing speed from it. I hit ball first and THEN mother earth as a result. The problem for me is.... for all the world and having tried endlessly... I don't see it in videos the way I see it when watching a really great ball striker do it live and in-person. I therefore can't easily unpack exactly what it is, how to do it, what constitutes too much or too little of it.

 

/////////////////

 

There - I put it out there.

 

My name is Reason and I'm a swing-a-holic. It's been 20 minutes since I thought about swings. I've stolen candy from children and beat up old people to get a look a swing video. :jester:

Gentlemen and Gentleman, my name is Reasy Friday, and I'm a Swingaholic. The story you've just heard is true. Only the names of the children and old ladies have been withheld because they beat me in match play 5 and 4 and 8 and 6 respectfully, and I intend to investigate and prosecute to the fullest. :)

 

I was going to say I agree with your post whole-spleenedley except for the trail shoulder higher than the trail shoulder thingy, then you explained that, so I'm good with it, so I like it all...

 

Reasy Friday

[tolmij]

Is being a swingaholic catching, can you be cured, is it a lifelong ailment. These are questions I would like answered before I try to join the club. Are they in any way similar to puttaholics, chipaholics, wedgeaholics or the alltime largest club, sliceaholics.

 

It seems as if golf causes all types of medical issues that are giving the medical profession a hard time, more surgery hours are now being used converting these conditions into a language more easily understood. Governments are becoming concerned, golf courses are being closed, the reason given not enough cash flow is all lies, it’s a con job trying to free up specialists for presumably more important research.

 

Input from the rest of the Grille is not required, unless you are suffering the same as I am from a lack of golf stimulation.

[Wriggles]

Only played nine yesterday. I really don't worry about swing analysis or any technical aspects of the game. I just hit the ball. The only thing I do is pace off my drives. Makes it easier to find the ball in deep rough, or the leaf season rapidly approaching. As we're aware, distances seem much farther than the paced off truth.

 

Penny is getting harder and harder to get home. She just refuses to leave and stubbornly sits down, no matter how much we entice her with food or kindness. It's really funny. She just looks at us, as if saying, "I'm not going anywhere."

 

Golf maybe later.

[BIG STU]

Well you guys know I play golf not golf swing. I do not think about mechanics I just hit the damn ball. I have said this in all due respect that Reasy needs to be teaching in a golf school somewhere. Seriously I think him and Brendall Chamblee have the most in depth analogy of the golf swing than anyone else. A lot of it is timing for ones body and speed. For me being a feel player it is all about timing and feel and not so much mechanics. Rad gave a perfect analogy on the gear shifting on a big truck but just like golf there are variables there too. Depends all on the engine , transmission and gearing. That Maxidine 10 speed I drive with the 600 HP engine shifts a lot differently than a Eaton 10 speed. Rad the transmission I absolutely hated in a truck was the Eaton Super 10. I think everyone else hated them too because they were only around for a few years. Gear shifting like blades and persimmon in golf will soon be a thing of the past since most big trucks have automatic transmissions now. LOL we had a guy that came to work for us that could not shift a 10 speed. He rode with me for a few days and could not shift a lick. I got frustrated with him and asked him "How in hell did you get a CDL?" Come to find out he went to truck driver school and they had automatics and the beer company he worked for had automatics. He had never even driven a car or pick up with a standard shift. He never went solo with us and went back to the beer company.

I was on the range the other day wringing out a set of 925 Armour blades. My buddy the Miura dealer was there. This guy walked up that I had not seen in maybe 10 years. He remarked he was not sure it was me since I did not have my loop in the back swing. The Miura man told him "he does not pull it back far enough to loop it anymore" What he was referring to was the fact I used to pull the club darn past parallel and lay it off at the top 90% of the time but I auto corrected it on the way down about the 11:00 position and got it back on plane for me, That produced the loop and was a natural move for me without thinking. Had a friend of mine from MGS play golf with me a couple of months back. I had came up short of a green and had to hit a nipper 56 off a tight lie. Hit the one hop stop. He begged me to teach him that so I tried my best. He is a young smart guy and very analytical. He asked if I thought about the shot. I told him honestly I did not. I told him that I had played so much golf over the years that I had in mind what I wanted to do and my hands and body automatically react. I showed him and told him it takes practice practice practice and for me it is a natural instinctive thought like walking. Yeah I am totally an instinct and feel player.

[BIG STU]

Only played nine yesterday. I really don't worry about swing analysis or any technical aspects of the game. I just hit the ball. The only thing I do is pace off my drives. Makes it easier to find the ball in deep rough, or the leaf season rapidly approaching. As we're aware, distances seem much farther than the paced off truth.

 

Penny is getting harder and harder to get home. She just refuses to leave and stubbornly sits down, no matter how much we entice her with food or kindness. It's really funny. She just looks at us, as if saying, "I'm not going anywhere."

 

Golf maybe later.

Wriggs I think Penny has bonded with you and your wife--- All dogs know good people--

[Conrad1953]

Well you guys know I play golf not golf swing. I do not think about mechanics I just hit the damn ball. I have said this in all due respect that Reasy needs to be teaching in a golf school somewhere. Seriously I think him and Brendall Chamblee have the most in depth analogy of the golf swing than anyone else. A lot of it is timing for ones body and speed. For me being a feel player it is all about timing and feel and not so much mechanics. Rad gave a perfect analogy on the gear shifting on a big truck but just like golf there are variables there too. Depends all on the engine , transmission and gearing. That Maxidine 10 speed I drive with the 600 HP engine shifts a lot differently than a Eaton 10 speed. Rad the transmission I absolutely hated in a truck was the Eaton Super 10. I think everyone else hated them too because they were only around for a few years. Gear shifting like blades and persimmon in golf will soon be a thing of the past since most big trucks have automatic transmissions now. LOL we had a guy that came to work for us that could not shift a 10 speed. He rode with me for a few days and could not shift a lick. I got frustrated with him and asked him "How in hell did you get a CDL?" Come to find out he went to truck driver school and they had automatics and the beer company he worked for had automatics. He had never even driven a car or pick up with a standard shift. He never went solo with us and went back to the beer company.

I was on the range the other day wringing out a set of 925 Armour blades. My buddy the Miura dealer was there. This guy walked up that I had not seen in maybe 10 years. He remarked he was not sure it was me since I did not have my loop in the back swing. The Miura man told him "he does not pull it back far enough to loop it anymore" What he was referring to was the fact I used to pull the club darn past parallel and lay it off at the top 90% of the time but I auto corrected it on the way down about the 11:00 position and got it back on plane for me, That produced the loop and was a natural move for me without thinking. Had a friend of mine from MGS play golf with me a couple of months back. I had came up short of a green and had to hit a nipper 56 off a tight lie. Hit the one hop stop. He begged me to teach him that so I tried my best. He is a young smart guy and very analytical. He asked if I thought about the shot. I told him honestly I did not. I told him that I had played so much golf over the years that I had in mind what I wanted to do and my hands and body automatically react. I showed him and told him it takes practice practice practice and for me it is a natural instinctive thought like walking. Yeah I am totally an instinct and feel player.

Well you guys know I play golf not golf swing. I do not think about mechanics I just hit the damn ball. I have said this in all due respect that Reasy needs to be teaching in a golf school somewhere. Seriously I think him and Brendall Chamblee have the most in depth analogy of the golf swing than anyone else. A lot of it is timing for ones body and speed. For me being a feel player it is all about timing and feel and not so much mechanics. Rad gave a perfect analogy on the gear shifting on a big truck but just like golf there are variables there too. Depends all on the engine , transmission and gearing. That Maxidine 10 speed I drive with the 600 HP engine shifts a lot differently than a Eaton 10 speed. Rad the transmission I absolutely hated in a truck was the Eaton Super 10. I think everyone else hated them too because they were only around for a few years. Gear shifting like blades and persimmon in golf will soon be a thing of the past since most big trucks have automatic transmissions now. LOL we had a guy that came to work for us that could not shift a 10 speed. He rode with me for a few days and could not shift a lick. I got frustrated with him and asked him "How in hell did you get a CDL?" Come to find out he went to truck driver school and they had automatics and the beer company he worked for had automatics. He had never even driven a car or pick up with a standard shift. He never went solo with us and went back to the beer company.

I was on the range the other day wringing out a set of 925 Armour blades. My buddy the Miura dealer was there. This guy walked up that I had not seen in maybe 10 years. He remarked he was not sure it was me since I did not have my loop in the back swing. The Miura man told him "he does not pull it back far enough to loop it anymore" What he was referring to was the fact I used to pull the club darn past parallel and lay it off at the top 90% of the time but I auto corrected it on the way down about the 11:00 position and got it back on plane for me, That produced the loop and was a natural move for me without thinking. Had a friend of mine from MGS play golf with me a couple of months back. I had came up short of a green and had to hit a nipper 56 off a tight lie. Hit the one hop stop. He begged me to teach him that so I tried my best. He is a young smart guy and very analytical. He asked if I thought about the shot. I told him honestly I did not. I told him that I had played so much golf over the years that I had in mind what I wanted to do and my hands and body automatically react. I showed him and told him it takes practice practice practice and for me it is a natural instinctive thought like walking. Yeah I am totally an instinct and feel player.

 

I'm liking this automatic trans in this Volvo. It's not really like a car auto trans. Volvo calls it i-shift. It's

a 12 speed and a computer does the shifting and downshifting. There's a pause between gears as

the computer shifts just like there would be if I was doing the shifting yet you can come to a full stop

with the truck in drive just like you can in a car......but it doesn't skip gears when taking off like you

and I do, lol.

 

I never liked the Super 10 either but when Cobi and I bought our Volvo back in 2005 it came with

an 18 speed trans in it. It was like a combo of the normal Eaton 10 and the Super 10. We skipped

gears like crazy with that one. Having an 18 speed in that truck was overkill. I think they just put it

in there to jack up the price.

[tolmij]

Well you guys know I play golf not golf swing. I do not think about mechanics I just hit the damn ball. I have said this in all due respect that Reasy needs to be teaching in a golf school somewhere. Seriously I think him and Brendall Chamblee have the most in depth analogy of the golf swing than anyone else. A lot of it is timing for ones body and speed. For me being a feel player it is all about timing and feel and not so much mechanics. Rad gave a perfect analogy on the gear shifting on a big truck but just like golf there are variables there too. Depends all on the engine , transmission and gearing. That Maxidine 10 speed I drive with the 600 HP engine shifts a lot differently than a Eaton 10 speed. Rad the transmission I absolutely hated in a truck was the Eaton Super 10. I think everyone else hated them too because they were only around for a few years. Gear shifting like blades and persimmon in golf will soon be a thing of the past since most big trucks have automatic transmissions now. LOL we had a guy that came to work for us that could not shift a 10 speed. He rode with me for a few days and could not shift a lick. I got frustrated with him and asked him "How in hell did you get a CDL?" Come to find out he went to truck driver school and they had automatics and the beer company he worked for had automatics. He had never even driven a car or pick up with a standard shift. He never went solo with us and went back to the beer company.

I was on the range the other day wringing out a set of 925 Armour blades. My buddy the Miura dealer was there. This guy walked up that I had not seen in maybe 10 years. He remarked he was not sure it was me since I did not have my loop in the back swing. The Miura man told him "he does not pull it back far enough to loop it anymore" What he was referring to was the fact I used to pull the club darn past parallel and lay it off at the top 90% of the time but I auto corrected it on the way down about the 11:00 position and got it back on plane for me, That produced the loop and was a natural move for me without thinking. Had a friend of mine from MGS play golf with me a couple of months back. I had came up short of a green and had to hit a nipper 56 off a tight lie. Hit the one hop stop. He begged me to teach him that so I tried my best. He is a young smart guy and very analytical. He asked if I thought about the shot. I told him honestly I did not. I told him that I had played so much golf over the years that I had in mind what I wanted to do and my hands and body automatically react. I showed him and told him it takes practice practice practice and for me it is a natural instinctive thought like walking. Yeah I am totally an instinct and feel player.

 

I think it’s the same with many sports and other aspects of life, the body will automatically do what it has been trained to do. When I was competing in Judo, sometimes I had completed the throw and beaten my opponent without any conscious thought, everything was exactly in the correct place and the body instinctively performed. So I can fully understand your playing by feel, to me it makes perfect sense, OK some golfers will be helped by lessons, if the body is not fully tuned the ability to change will still be there, and not enough of us play that much so the action is automatic. Again as with your comment, practice, practice, practice, we used to perform the same movement thousands of times to ensure when everything came together the reaction was automatic.

[tolmij]

Only played nine yesterday. I really don't worry about swing analysis or any technical aspects of the game. I just hit the ball. The only thing I do is pace off my drives. Makes it easier to find the ball in deep rough, or the leaf season rapidly approaching. As we're aware, distances seem much farther than the paced off truth.

 

Penny is getting harder and harder to get home. She just refuses to leave and stubbornly sits down, no matter how much we entice her with food or kindness. It's really funny. She just looks at us, as if saying, "I'm not going anywhere."

 

Golf maybe later.

Wriggs I think Penny has bonded with you and your wife--- All dogs know good people--

 

I agree, I still think he should adopt penny and put up a fence.

[Spooky67]

Glad you had a good time and glad you like swing talk Spooky.

 

Not sure if it was you or Reasy who posted that video of an instructor unwinding with a golf ball in hand

and letting it fly out of his palm and going straight out rather than trying to steer it with his hand or fingers

or trying to "time" the release. That was a very good illustration of what we should do with the golf club IMO.

 

It really involves one of my favorite words in golf; trust. Tust that if you do X, Y will happen. For me, I want

to be able to trust that certain things will happen without my trying to make them happen. Just like that illustration

from that instructor.

 

Anoher thing is to swing the club and play in such a way that we can maximize our margin for error. The more

precise we have to be the more error prone we become. A good example of this is to compare 2 kinds of golfers.

The first is the "picker" who picks the ball cleanly off the turf. This golfer has very little room for error. His swing

bottom has to be in a very precise location and he is more prone to mishits than the golfer whose swing bottoms

out after the ball. The 2nd golfer can have his swing bottom out at the ball or as much as 4 inches on the target

side of the ball and still hit a good shot. He has a 4 inch margin for error compared to the picker who has maybe

a 1 inch margin for error and is prone to fat and thin shots.

 

Also, the 2nd golfer can play from ANY lie from rough to hardpan. The first golfer will struggle with tight lies on

fairways and fear hardpan lies.

 

Which golfer do we want to be? Which golfer's game will travel anywhere?

 

The biggest cure for so many of the ills that can plague us on a golf course is to move our swing bottom forward

of the ball. Doing that gives us so much more room for error and make us more consistent ball strikers that are

less prone to getting off kilter during a round.

 

I know this because I was a picker and a hitter and I resolved to become a swinger who takes divots. Not an

easy change to make and still a work in progress because I haven't been playing. I have played with many

friends who are divot taking swingers and I rarely see them mishit shots the way I have on occasion. They may

pull or push a shot or draw or fade one unintentionally but they rarely hit them fat or thin, or hit hosel rockets.

 

Anyway, I learned inconsistent golf comes from inconsistent ball contact from playing with so little room for

error. So little room that it doesn't take much to lose it and get it back again and not really know how or why

 

I read Bobby Clampett's book "Impact Zone" many years ago and I agree with his main point that moving the

swing bottom forward should be the primary focus of all golfers who wish to become more consistent ball

strikers and more consistent players.

 

My 2 cents FWIW, LOL.

 

If there was any justice... all golfers in the world would go practice and play long enough to get some good solid shots under their belt and then would eat / sleep / drink Radro's post above day and night for about a month. There's so much good stuff in his post.

 

For starters, I SO agree that the club has to be STILL accelerating at the point of contact...as opposed to maxing out clubhead speed at the moment of impact. Flailing the arms and hands as hard as you can into the back of the ball is a great way to "cast"... thereby dumping that angle seen face-on between the shaft and lead arm way too early. The very attempt to add power (which is what happens in this case) - ends up reducing reducing clubhead speed.... not increasing it. The clubhead MUST be still accelerating at impact. Now according to the laws of the universe, it may not actually be still accelerating past the ball, since the act of contact between ball and clubhead will slow that clubhead down a bit. BUT... it has to FEEL like it's still gaining momentum PAST the ball, not AT the ball. And LAG is a huge key in getting that very thing to happen.

 

The oily-wristed effect of lag (IMO) brings forth all those things Radro points out and they're all good things. But to his point there's a point of overdose. I 100% agree that yanking downward hard on that handle and forcing a hard hand-flip is NOT lag... That's the tipping point of where the golfer is trying too hard to force a "lag" when he could more efficiently and easily generate it by simply letting the wrists HINGE and UNHINGE very fluidly. A little fraction of even adding a touch more of an angle between the shaft and lead arm as the downswing starts... KERPOW! Especially when that lead hip is clearing as discussed before.

 

Also want to add this one into the mix.

 

These things can be thought of as either going along for the ride in a swing and being passive - OR - they can be thought of being called in action and firing muscles to force things to occur. Will serve up my own thoughts on them... but to each his own. Just because I say it and work toward it doesn't make it universally true for all others who play this game. Here goes...

 

The hands... For me personally they need to be more passive than active. They "can" be when the foot and knee work get that belly turning. Therefore the lead knee (moving more back behind me coming out of transition) is active - so that the hands can be more passive.

 

The arms... this is just me talking but they are most assuredly connected to the shoulders. So in my lowly opine, I can't send the arms anywhere and can't move them faster or slower until or unless the shoulders they're connected to do the actual turning. That says the only true way the arms move faster, is when the shoulders turn faster. Now, I "could" perform what they call the "wipe move' where the hands and arms rip across a basically dead-still body I suppose. But we're talking speed here. So for me personally, the arms basically go for a ride. They start smoothly in transition, and speed up all the way to the finish rather than "at" the ball. I can have little errors in my swing and get away with them... a lethargic shoulder turn is NOT one of them. Said differently - If I start smoothly but fully accelerate the shoulder turn - it tends to hide my other mistakes.

 

In an ideal world my hands are passive and the hands are also going for a ride as the wrists unhinge. On a practical level however, I'm pretty sure there is "some" hand action through the strike. But I honestly work toward the getting the lower body to support an active shoulder turn with more or less passive hands and arms. Is it PURELY that way for me? Prolly not. I just know it's less taxing on the old body that way.

 

Really good stuff Radro. Great post!

 

Both of y'all are saying A LOT of the things my instructor is saying. He has told me that I don't turn through the swing enough. That and my trail knee are my big swing flaws. Reasy I think you've mentioned that knee before too...lol. He has explained what I should be trying to do, and I understand what he's saying. His instruction is almost 100% opposite of what I have been trying to do over the last five years or so. I did take one lesson from a highly recommended instructor five or six years ago, at that point in time I was spinning out with my hips and getting the club trapped behind me. So his advice was "try to have your belt buckle pointing behind the ball when you hit it, you won't be able to but try." So I started trying to stop my hips at impact. He also wanted my to throw my right hand at the ball, so I developed a lot of "arms" in the swing.

 

Like y'all are saying he's wanting my arms relaxed and passive, letting the turn and raising the trail shoulder into the finish control my arms and club/release. Today was my third lesson with him. He talks a lot about an athletic swing, not thinking about the movement just letting your brain/body react to the target-throwing a ball etc. He talks a lot about focusing on the target, not the ball, his explanations for bad swings revolve around the brian trying to figure out how to overcome the movement mistakes you've already made and compensate to try hit the ball towards the target. He also talks about the club head moving last as you start the takeaway.

 

He hasn't talked about anything complex, no wrist talk, no shaft angle stuff, no positive/negative stuff at impact, no launch monitor, no tech. He has talked weight shift, rotation in the backswing, stabilizing the trail knee in the backswing, weight shift forward and turning through the shot, aggressively straightening the front leg and bringing the trail shoulder around and up through the swing. That's it. He talked a little bit about ball position with the driver to encourage an upward deliver of the club into the ball, but that's about as detailed as he's gotten. Which IMO is a good thing for me.

 

The lessons have helped for sure, if nothing else I know what I am trying to do and now when I hit a bad shot I know, most likely, what happened and what to do about it. I am still not consistent- I don't play/practice enough to be so at the moment, but I'm better than I was. Shot a 97 on 18 last Friday 50/47. The 47 on the back was encouraging because I usually do worse on the back at my home course. I am usually around 100 for 18 on this course and usually score a little better on the front, so I think I am trending in the right direction.?

 

I think with my limited ability to play- once a week, and no real range time these lessons give me thoughts about sequencing and timing in the swing that are helping me swing a little more consistently.? I think the bigger help is having a good idea of what went wrong when I hit a bad shot.

[tolmij]

We had a full out in the garden planned for today but the storms are about 10 mins from a massive downpour. Thunder in the background. We have range of hills between us and the direction the storm usually come from but this morning they will not stop it. Into the studio for a paint day. Mulching now planned for tomorrow, fingers crossed, public holiday tomorrow so son will be here working hard instead of sitting at his desk exercising his fingers on the keyboard. Ah well we need the rain.

 

Have a good evening Grillers, stay safe.

[tolmij]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

[BIG STU]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

Looks pretty darn tasty to me--- Man oh man that Chimchrri sauce sounds good--- I may make some this afternoon I have all the ingredients in stock here at the house

[Qqq123xx]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

Looks pretty darn tasty to me--- Man oh man that Chimchrri sauce sounds good--- I may make some this afternoon I have all the ingredients in stock here at the house

That baked potato is killer huge and am wanting to take a long dive into it. Not spectacular looking my not so young butt.

[BIG STU]

Rad--- That Volvo you bought in 05 that transmission sounds like that is a heavy haul transmission. Those 18 and 15 speeds have real close ratios for maximum torque throughout the range pulling super heavy loads. I had my 88 T-600 specced out with the Eaton 15 speed. Never used the bottom end unless we were off road or grossing over 100K. The bottom end was what was called a under drive. Granny low was so low that you could literally put it there and pull the hand throttle out and at 2100 RPM literally walk beside it. Of course it had 3 live drives in the back too 4.30 ratio. 14 and 15th were a super high ratio to compensate for the low rears running empty or light loads. That engine was a 444 Cummins bumped to 460 had a hot little PT pump with a big button. I specced out that truck from the ground up. Kenworth built that truck exactly like I wanted it built. If I had that truck now I would have to command some super rates to cover fuel costs but empty or under 80k it did pretty well on fuel mileage. Nothing like the computer controlled trucks of today though. That Mack I drive now is a heavy haul spec truck itself and I get combined empty and loaded around 6 MPG.

[tolmij]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

Looks pretty darn tasty to me--- Man oh man that Chimchrri sauce sounds good--- I may make some this afternoon I have all the ingredients in stock here at the house

 

Sounds as if you have a good store cupboard, the sauce is fairly intense but went well with the sweetness of the potatoe. It is supposed to go well with steak we have not tried that as yet.

 

Good to see you back on line Stu, did you have much damage?

[tolmij]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

Looks pretty darn tasty to me--- Man oh man that Chimchrri sauce sounds good--- I may make some this afternoon I have all the ingredients in stock here at the house

That baked potato is killer huge and am wanting to take a long dive into it. Not spectacular looking my not so young butt.

 

We have a local shop that always has the larger variety of all vegetables, this is medium sized sweet potatoe compared to some they sell.. this is the orange flesh variety the sweetest of all of them.

[Wriggles]

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

 

A wonderful lunch! Can't recall the last time I had anything remotely like that. Yesterday, the missus and SIL went to a local kitchen tour. Basically, for $15, the patrons visit wealthy peoples houses, where volunteer chefs prepare stuff most guys won't eat, and share a morsel with the commoners.

They take chances on different raffle baskets, of course they buy tickets. SIL "won" some wooden boxes that looked like old time soda pop crates, and my dearest won a hair care shampoo basket.. WOW, I wonder who won all the good stuff? Probably, the richest people in town.

 

Anyhow, my running joke is, Mrs. Wriggles wants to go somewhere she's never been before. Try the kitchen. (I believe a Henny Youngman joke.)

 

In the evening, they went to a fundraiser library dinner.

 

I'm glad they have each other to go to this stuff. At least, I don't have to go.

 

Cheers!

[BIG STU]

Tol our place did not get any damage at all just a few small tree limbs down which took me an hour or so to clean up and cut up. We were lucky

[SixtySomePing]

Tol our place did not get any damage at all just a few small tree limbs down which took me an hour or so to clean up and cut up. We were lucky

That's great to hear, good for you!

 

 

 

 

Lunch today, not spectacular looking but spectacular taste.

 

Chicken, remove backbone, flatten rub herbs and spices into skin, spray with oil, stuff butter with herbs and spices under skin, dry bake till cooked.

 

Sweet potatoe, salt and pepper on skin, bake untill tender, split top flatten and cover with Jalapano chillies and mozzarella cheese, Grill untill cheese is nice and brown.

 

Cooked corn on the cob.

 

Chimchirri sauce, garlic, chillies, parsley, red wine vinegar, oregano, lime juice, olive oil, blend untill smooth.

 

Served with a baguette of sour dough bread, not shown as DW was guarding it.

 

Washed down with a fine white wine.

 

Cheers. :)

Wow tol, that absolutely looks fabulous!

[Reasonability]

Wondering something. Shafts are all up for selection and preference up and down through the bag. What about the putter? Does it matter nearly as much with that stick (other than length)???

 

USA just took a powder in the Ryder. Way to go Europe. Well played. Very well and very proudly done.

[Reasonability]

Will roam around here a bit - and forgive the laziness in not directly quoting and responding individually.

 

Stu, I've heard you mention we need us a golf shop where you tune up the clubs while I look at the swings. There's every good reason you and I would not even want or care to even speak to one-another. Other than both residing in the Carolinas we come at this goofy game very differently. But I'll put this out there. It's a pleasure to know you - I'd be very proud to work in that shop with you - and you're nothing short of a good soul who stands proudly on strong principle. And thank you for the kudos about swing talk. I don't own the credentials to actually call myself an "instructor". In a way I like it that way as I can share what I share from my seat and if it's not aligned perfectly with this philosophy or that... this instructor or that... I've got absolutely nothing to apologize for. There's a certain amount of freedom that goes with sharing in the spirit of sharing - being perfectly willing to say right out loud I don't have all the answers - and treating it as a fun passion rather than a make or break thing my entire family's future depends on to survive. I'd very much like, before leaving this planet - to help younger people, those perhaps wounded in the line of duty - and even older farts who'd be willing to open up to the possibilities of swinging respectfully into their later years. If we ever open that shop up together - you'd find me running in those directions just cause it would (to me) be a pure blast doing so.

 

More to come. I sort of ranted at Stu and Stu alone on this one - lol.

[Reasonability]

Sixty - I stand guilty as charged in your "swing-a-holic" post! LOL. Just curious - will you have any say-so as to who fills your shoes when you retire? Guess it's common for that one to be entirely in the employers hands far more so than he who exits. Just wondering.

 

Wriggs - If you pace off your drives then you must have a reasonable idea of when you're about in the right place. That says you're pretty consistent. In my book it's important to know about what distance a club serves up. And, the story of Penny is the stuff they make movies about. Very special stuff.

 

Tol - FWIW I understand the swing talk is not an investment for all who play the game. It's OK. You play -- you're a golfer. You're good to go here. Why the driver is does things for you that are harder to call up with irons is interesting. For so many golfers it's the other way around. LOL

 

Spooks - Great to hear you're on a good flight plan with the instructor. When you first dropped by the Grille, you mentioned hoping to build an indoor practice setup at home. Sure hope that gets to happen for you since practice/play time options for you are limited for now. If/when you do - be sure to snag a couple of cheap closet mirrors. One sets face-on and the other down-the-line. You get immediate feedback as opposed to stopping and starting a thousand videos.

 

Radro - I agree Hogan is among those with that extreme lag angle in the downswing. There are a few who had it in spades. Not so many who took it as far as guys like them. Yea- I suppose age has taken us out of the running for applying that much of it. As to the cupped lead wrist for Phil... I noticed he started off with a pretty strong lead hand. And for me personally - I played with more cupping the lead wrist than instructors wanted to see for many years, too. In my case, I wanted to work the ball and flight it higher and lower. So I was encouraged to get that wrist flatter at the top. And the way it finally happened was to forget the lead wrist and focus on the amount of cupping in the TRAIL wrist up there. It represented one of those true "break-through" moments on my own journey. Found out I could do whatever I wanted with the trail wrist and the lead one just followed suit... but for some dumb reason I could only get the lead wrist doing what I wanted by forcing it which felt very unnatural. Why it worked this way for me personally is anyone's guess. Getting that lead wrist a little more bowed at impact... I totally confess that for me that one seems to happen better for me when I want to flight the ball down a little but it's a conscious thing on such occasions. I don't think I do that move like the pros do on every normal swing. Then again I don't have sponsors calling me either - lol.

 

Q - Potatoes can move from the sack to the back of the pants but it's wisdom for the pain! A little salt, butter, sour cream... go for it!

[BIG STU]

Wondering something. Shafts are all up for selection and preference up and down through the bag. What about the putter? Does it matter nearly as much with that stick (other than length)???

 

USA just took a powder in the Ryder. Way to go Europe. Well played. Very well and very proudly done.

Putters can be very subjective even vintage ones. Some of the early Bulls Eyes have a fluted shaft which helps off torque and a soft feel. Even some later Scottys have that shaft my 97 Santa Fe does. So do a lot of 8802s and Wilson blade putters. It is really on the putter all about feel. One of my tricks is to take a non insert putter and use a Sensicore shaft without the insert. Sometimes with a soft faced insert you may need a stiff shaft to get the feel. Then you have those "Frequency Filter" shafts and that newfangled shaft that has some kind of vibration damper. On putters most of the time it is not about mechanical torque but feel. Yeah you can tune a putter for feel.

 

Yep in the Ryder Cup we got our butts handed to us on a silver platter---- I am going to hold my comments on our "team" because they are not nice. Nothing against the Euros they played great and they seem to care about the Ryder cup

[scomac2002]

Great looking lunch you prepared there tol!

 

We went down to Niagara-on-the-Lake with another couple that we travel with. They hadn't been in years and wanted to go.

 

WE had dinner at the Niagara College restaurant on Friday night and low and behold on the wine list we found a section with alumnus commentary about wines that the restaurant is serving. Our son was featured for a wine from the previous winery that he worked at in Niagara. DW pictured the piece and sent it along to #2 son who quickly responded: WTF? I never wrote that! I'm going to email someone down there and complain!

 

The meal we had was exceptional and the college had no trouble dealing with our friend's onion allergy. The following night we looked for a place serving simpler fair that might better appeal to our friends and called ahead to see if they can handle the situation to which we were assured they could, so we booked. Long story short; we get there and after several back-and-forths to the kitchen we are told that all our friend could have was salad and bread... :angry2:

 

This has happened several times and I'm not taking it anymore! It's total BS! Either you can or you can't. You don't pretend that you can and then basically tell the customer we don't want your business! These sorts of establishments need to have a few customers walk out and tell them to stick it! Cancel the food orders and leave without paying for the drinks that were partially consumed. AFAIC, pubs, roadhouses and chains seem to be incapable to handling any sort of food allergy other than a nuisance one. From now on we're sticking to higher end establishments where they are prepared to prepare something separately. Now you know why we travel exclusively on Holland America Line when cruising because they can deal with this. It costs more, but that's the price you pay for individualized service which in this case is a necessity!

[SixtySomePing]

Sixty - I stand guilty as charged in your "swing-a-holic" post! LOL. Just curious - will you have any say-so as to who fills your shoes when you retire? Guess it's common for that one to be entirely in the employers hands far more so than he who exits. Just wondering.

 

Reasy, absolutely! I am part of the search/interview/hire process first. Actually I will have my team be a part of the interview process too, as I have always had them be a part of the hiring of new people into our department, so this should be no different. I want to send that message right from the beginning, and let them be a part of the choosing as well. Then I have a succession plan which is 6 months worth of training of my job. It's pretty detailed on how we do stuff in some places in relation to our company and our products too. We haven't interviewed anyone yet, so tomorrow being Oct. 1st obviously means the 6 month plan will end up being trimmed into the economy package, and hopefully not the appetizer serving, but I'm done March 31st either way... It's a very nice company, and i have enjoyed it, at 575 employees, if we were to use the word seniority which we don't, I would be #10, or #1 in management years there, so it's been fun watching it grow over the last 19 years. It will be difficult leaving but it's time...

[bscinstnct]

Just spent some time catching up on Grille banter. Very relaxing, appreciate the sharing, humor, and civility.

 

And especially the food porn ; )

 

Fall came and the weather in NY turned on a dime. Cant complain, was a brutally hot humid summer and am now enjoying sunny, clear skies, the crisp air. So great for sleeping as well.

 

Wish the NY football teams offered mor promise. Always a bonus when your local teams play well.

 

Big cheers to my favorite forum gents ; )

 

 

[tolmij]

Great looking lunch you prepared there tol!

 

We went down to Niagara-on-the-Lake with another couple that we travel with. They hadn't been in years and wanted to go.

 

WE had dinner at the Niagara College restaurant on Friday night and low and behold on the wine list we found a section with alumnus commentary about wines that the restaurant is serving. Our son was featured for a wine from the previous winery that he worked at in Niagara. DW pictured the piece and sent it along to #2 son who quickly responded: WTF? I never wrote that! I'm going to email someone down there and complain!

 

The meal we had was exceptional and the college had no trouble dealing with our friend's onion allergy. The following night we looked for a place serving simpler fair that might better appeal to our friends and called ahead to see if they can handle the situation to which we were assured they could, so we booked. Long story short; we get there and after several back-and-forths to the kitchen we are told that all our friend could have was salad and bread... :angry2:

 

This has happened several times and I'm not taking it anymore! It's total BS! Either you can or you can't. You don't pretend that you can and then basically tell the customer we don't want your business! These sorts of establishments need to have a few customers walk out and tell them to stick it! Cancel the food orders and leave without paying for the drinks that were partially consumed. AFAIC, pubs, roadhouses and chains seem to be incapable to handling any sort of food allergy other than a nuisance one. From now on we're sticking to higher end establishments where they are prepared to prepare something separately. Now you know why we travel exclusively on Holland America Line when cruising because they can deal with this. It costs more, but that's the price you pay for individualized service which in this case is a necessity!

 

 

Part of my work history was as a chef in a carvery with a fixed menu, most food was prepare in advance, I started my evening shift two hours before first service, however, when we had a special order we always made time to prepare it as required, most kitchen staff even the non cooks are usually more than capable of basic preparation it’s just idleness and could not give a stuff that results in your situation. The menu we did was a fixed price fixed menu mainly, with a few a’la carte options, if you have the ingredients most of the basic work is already done, it’s surprising how meals that look and taste completely different have the same base ingredients. As I said it’s not a matter of cannot but don’t want to.