Colorado WRX 2017

irvtrain · February 28, 2017

Went and got fitted at D'Lance over a couple Saturdays recently. Pretty happy with my titleist irons so we're going to reshaft them with the proper shaft. Amazing how much my numbers jumped on the trackman. Shifting from the TIX100's (which I only played because that's what everyone plays, right?) to a C-Taper parallels. I thought the overall cost was quite expensive but I'm curious to see how they work on the course. Good luck with all the fittings that have been going on at Club Champion!

What is their fitting process like?

TheKrushh · February 28, 2017

Went and got fitted at D'Lance over a couple Saturdays recently. Pretty happy with my titleist irons so we're going to reshaft them with the proper shaft. Amazing how much my numbers jumped on the trackman. Shifting from the TIX100's (which I only played because that's what everyone plays, right?) to a C-Taper parallels. I thought the overall cost was quite expensive but I'm curious to see how they work on the course. Good luck with all the fittings that have been going on at Club Champion!
Went and got fitted at D'Lance over a couple Saturdays recently. Pretty happy with my titleist irons so we're going to reshaft them with the proper shaft. Amazing how much my numbers jumped on the trackman. Shifting from the TIX100's (which I only played because that's what everyone plays, right?) to a C-Taper parallels. I thought the overall cost was quite expensive but I'm curious to see how they work on the course. Good luck with all the fittings that have been going on at Club Champion!

What is their fitting process like?

Questions about your game to start. Hit some with your clubs to get loose and a baseline number. Next, I hit with some wired up club they had to find what my swing "pattern" was like. This was pretty cool because it helped you see how you transition and what your momentum of the club is like. Talked a bit about what I was looking for and started working different shafts. I really liked that you could use whatever ball you're used to playing rather than some generic range ball. They are very detailed on checking every configuration before you hit it so it's definitely a slow process. I like that though because I don't like when were changing a bunch of variables at the same time. A lot of fitting was done from the 6 iron which I would say that I typically play at 210-215. My 6 on the simulator was doing about 212-220. Once we got in to a good shaft for me, the spin came down, ball flight and dispersion went tighter, and the "total" was up around 230. This was pretty cool as my biggest complaints with my irons is distance control variation. Guys definitely know what they are talking about and have a strong passion for golf.

The overall vibe I got was very detail oriented and super particular about the build. I would say you definitely pay for that which is fine. I'll be curious to see the difference in how I play this year as I typically am not overly concerned about the details.

I don't do a ton of fitting so that's what I remember off the top of my head. Did you have any other specific questions?

pseudoswede · February 28, 2017

Too busy to play golf this weekend. :(

brianhorne8 · March 1, 2017

You guys even going to be able to this weekend? Not sure how much snow y'all got.

Joelness · March 1, 2017

Yeah it won't be a problem at all. It was snowing really hard when I left work but not much accumulated at all. I wasn't looking this morning on my way in but didn't notice any on the side of the road. Even if there was an inch or two it will be melted off by Thursday I bet.

danzur · March 1, 2017

You guys even going to be able to this weekend? Not sure how much snow y'all got.

Reporting from Black Bear-pretty much a heavy dusting. Sun is out. Should be gone in a day or 2 at the most.

thaar · March 1, 2017

So I finally got to look over the Trackman results for the other shaft options I had during my fitting. FWIW, Club Champion has been accommodating to make sure I'm happy. If you recall, my fitter initially suggested the DG S400 Tour primarily due to the ball speeds I was having. The other shafts we tested with the Mizuno MP-5 head were the Oban ct 115, C-Taper lite 110, C-Taper 120, and Project X LZ 6.0. Here's the averages for those shafts:

And here is the comparison of the S400 with various heads:

It looks to me as though the Project X LZ yields better numbers overall - keep in mind this is with the MP-5 head, which we've said probably isn't the best head out of the bunch. The spin is better over the s400 (5240 vs 4972), higher launch angle (16.8* vs 15.2*), better height (102.9ft vs 98.7ft), better smash factor (1.4 vs 1.38), and similar distance overall (better carry - 205.5yds vs 203.3yds, slightly less total - 217.6 vs 218.4).

Here is more detail on my shots with the Project X LZ:

And here's the dispersion, which looks like the Project X LZ performs well for me in this area:

So it looks to me that I should try the Project X LZ with the Titleist 716 CB to see if that will bring up my spin numbers to a more optimal range. They also didn't have the Srixon 765 when I was there last since it broke, but they have now fixed it, so I want to try that as well. Do you think this is the right approach?

Thanks again for everyones help!

Joelness · March 1, 2017

So it looks to me that I should try the Project X LZ with the Titleist 716 CB to see if that will bring up my spin numbers to a more optimal range. They also didn't have the Srixon 765 when I was there last since it broke, but they have now fixed it, so I want to try that as well. Do you think this is the right approach?

Thanks again for everyones help!

I think you're right on the money thaar. I've never liked DG shafts and I love ProjectX's, but that's a deeply personal thing.

av1084 · March 1, 2017

My ball speeds were substantially better with LZ as well. Have some reshafted iBlades coming in courtesy of Dan Weitzel imminently...

Joelness · March 1, 2017

It looks to me as though the Project X LZ yields better numbers overall - keep in mind this is with the MP-5 head, which we've said probably isn't the best head out of the bunch. The spin is better over the s400 (5240 vs 4972), higher launch angle (16.8* vs 15.2*), better height (102.9ft vs 98.7ft), better smash factor (1.4 vs 1.38), and similar distance overall (better carry - 205.5yds vs 203.3yds, slightly less total - 217.6 vs 218.4).

Yeah, the 205 carry and 217 total still leaves 12 yards of roll out and that's way too much for a mid-iron. When you get the launch and spin rates up that will make a much better decent angle (which you can also check on TM) which should minimize that rollout a lot. See how low you can get it without losing distance and you will have your perfect match.

thaar · March 1, 2017

Yeah, I'm hoping the Project X LZ paired with the Titleist 716 CB or Srixon 765 will provide better spin. Are there other heads that are known for higher spin numbers?

Kind of bums me out since I've been a big fan of Mizuno for quite some time (I've owned 3 sets), but I simply don't get enough spin from their heads apparently.

Thanks again for the input and advice!

Edit: Also, the 12yd roll out was with a 6i. Is that still considered a lot?

brianhorne8 · March 1, 2017

Random question: Any of you guys game a PM grind wedge? I tested with Dan Weitzel when I redid my bag last year but kind of forgot about it. Wondering how it fares in the sand around Denver...which seems to often be firm. Just looking for thoughts on it before I get to testing one.

av1084 · March 1, 2017

Yeah, I'm hoping the Project X LZ paired with the Titleist 716 CB or Srixon 765 will provide better spin. Are there other heads that are known for higher spin numbers?

Kind of bums me out since I've been a big fan of Mizuno for quite some time (I've owned 3 sets), but I simply don't get enough spin from their heads apparently.

Thanks again for the input and advice!

Edit: Also, the 12yd roll out was with a 6i. Is that still considered a lot?

This is just my opinion and personal anecdotal evidence, so it may be wrong, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the rollout. The trackman also said my rollout for my 6 iron gamer was about 10 yards or so, which is completely untrue when correlated with real world experience...I can't explain why it says that, but FOR ME, it is categorically wrong. With the LZs my rollout was increased by about a yard or so which was attributable to the 100-200 less RPM I suppose, but I am not putting stock into that either. Or at least yet. Until I try them outdoors.

thaar · March 1, 2017

Good to know, thanks. So it sounds like I need to focus mostly on spin, launch and peak height, which sounds like the LZ is the proper selection for me of what I tried.

Joelness · March 1, 2017

Random question: Any of you guys game a PM grind wedge? I tested with Dan Weitzel when I redid my bag last year but kind of forgot about it. Wondering how it fares in the sand around Denver...which seems to often be firm. Just looking for thoughts on it before I get to testing one.

I can't help you on that one Brian, I've always been a vokey guy. I always buy the M grind in those. It is a somewhat similar grind though. I find it to be the most versatile as the leading edge stays lower to the ground when opening up the clubface. I never noticed a big difference in the bunkers when it came to grinds but that's for me personally.

Yeah, I'm hoping the Project X LZ paired with the Titleist 716 CB or Srixon 765 will provide better spin. Are there other heads that are known for higher spin numbers?

Kind of bums me out since I've been a big fan of Mizuno for quite some time (I've owned 3 sets), but I simply don't get enough spin from their heads apparently.

Thanks again for the input and advice!

Edit: Also, the 12yd roll out was with a 6i. Is that still considered a lot?

This is just my opinion and personal anecdotal evidence, so it may be wrong, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the rollout. The trackman also said my rollout for my 6 iron gamer was about 10 yards or so, which is completely untrue when correlated with real world experience...I can't explain why it says that, but FOR ME, it is categorically wrong. With the LZs my rollout was increased by about a yard or so which was attributable to the 100-200 less RPM I suppose, but I am not putting stock into that either. Or at least yet. Until I try them outdoors.

I can't speak to how accurate TM is for rollout honestly. If it were accurate 12 yards is a lot of rollout. I would say on average greens are about 20-25 yards deep so you're talking about landing it short of the green for front pins with a 6 iron.

I do agree though that those numbers you mentioned as well as decent angle should be your focus. Get that spin up around 6k rpm with a good decent angle and the ball will be a lot more "sticky" for you.

av1084 · March 1, 2017

Random question: Any of you guys game a PM grind wedge? I tested with Dan Weitzel when I redid my bag last year but kind of forgot about it. Wondering how it fares in the sand around Denver...which seems to often be firm. Just looking for thoughts on it before I get to testing one.
I can't help you on that one Brian, I've always been a vokey guy. I always buy the M grind in those. It is a somewhat similar grind though. I find it to be the most versatile as the leading edge stays lower to the ground when opening up the clubface. I never noticed a big difference in the bunkers when it came to grinds but that's for me personally.

Yeah, I'm hoping the Project X LZ paired with the Titleist 716 CB or Srixon 765 will provide better spin. Are there other heads that are known for higher spin numbers?

Kind of bums me out since I've been a big fan of Mizuno for quite some time (I've owned 3 sets), but I simply don't get enough spin from their heads apparently.

Thanks again for the input and advice!

Edit: Also, the 12yd roll out was with a 6i. Is that still considered a lot?

This is just my opinion and personal anecdotal evidence, so it may be wrong, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the rollout. The trackman also said my rollout for my 6 iron gamer was about 10 yards or so, which is completely untrue when correlated with real world experience...I can't explain why it says that, but FOR ME, it is categorically wrong. With the LZs my rollout was increased by about a yard or so which was attributable to the 100-200 less RPM I suppose, but I am not putting stock into that either. Or at least yet. Until I try them outdoors.

I can't speak to how accurate TM is for rollout honestly. If it were accurate 12 yards is a lot of rollout. I would say on average greens are about 20-25 yards deep so you're talking about landing it short of the green for front pins with a 6 iron.

I do agree though that those numbers you mentioned as well as decent angle should be your focus. Get that spin up around 6k rpm with a good decent angle and the ball will be a lot more "sticky" for you.

The suggestion of even 10 yards rollout to me is absurd. Is it possibly to get people focused on "distance gains" when they go in there? 196 carry/199 total is not as eye-catching as 196 carry/207 total, right? Not suggesting anything sinister, just thinking out loud. I can say that my gamers spin at about 6k and do not even come close to rolling out that much.

Joelness · March 1, 2017

The suggestion of even 10 yards rollout to me is absurd. Is it possibly to get people focused on "distance gains" when they go in there? 196 carry/199 total is not as eye-catching as 196 carry/207 total, right? Not suggesting anything sinister, just thinking out loud. I can say that my gamers spin at about 6k and do not even come close to rolling out that much.

That would make a lot of sense if that's the case. The only thing I find odd is TM shouldn't have any incentive themselves because they don't sell any clubs. Maybe it's just an error in the their algorithm, who knows.

You're right though, ten yards of rollout on a 6i is HUGE. I bet my average is 2-3 yards. With soft greens it can spin back.

jacobEDGE · March 1, 2017

My fitting is Saturday, so I won't be able to get out on the course that day. But I absolutely want to play some golf on Sunday.

Also, I emailed Club Champion and they won't have the 770's in stock to try out, which is a bummer, because those are the clubs I'm about 99% sure I'll be ordering.

irvtrain · March 1, 2017

It is odd that there is rollout on a TM and not on a simulator at Superstore etc. I would say the rollout is accurate if hitting into a dry fairway and not a green which is what I think the trackman assumes.

I used a PM Grind 64* for a little while last year. It was OK if you're not trying to open it up on a firm fairway or hard pan sand due to the high bounce.

Joelness · March 2, 2017

Have you guys read the rules changes? What do you think? Favorite changes?

As a regular tournament player I'm pumped.They will make the game so much easier. There were so many convoluted rules that never made sense and it appears they're getting rid of a lot of them. Besides the obvious change like the ball moving on a green my favorites are the dropping procedure change and making it no penalty to move lose impediments and ground your club in a "penalty area" (used to be hazard.)

brianhorne8 · March 2, 2017

Have you guys read the rules changes? What do you think? Favorite changes?

As a regular tournament player I'm pumped.They will make the game so much easier. There were so many convoluted rules that never made sense and it appears they're getting rid of a lot of them. Besides the obvious change like the ball moving on a green my favorites are the dropping procedure change and making it no penalty to move lose impediments and ground your club in a "penalty area" (used to be hazard.)

I like the reduction of search times for lost balls, the change in drops, and if I'm reading this correctly:

"A player may remove loose impediments in the sand and touch the sand with his/her club, although the player cannot deliberately touch the sand to test its condition. Practice swings would still be prohibited."

Does that mean you can now ground your club in bunkers as long as you're not checking to see how firm the sand is?

Good, common sense changes.

Joelness · March 2, 2017

Does that mean you can now ground your club in bunkers as long as you're not checking to see how firm the sand is?

Good, common sense changes.

Actually no you can't ground your club in bunkers. The USGA site has a better description than the quick article WRX put together. The change for bunkers is really based around allowing removal of loose impediments. Since that will disturb the sand that's why they had that verbiage in there that you can affect the sand a little in so doing.

irvtrain · March 2, 2017

I love the rule changes. I like the 1" drop, which I believe is basically for your second drop to keep it in your drop area if the first one rolled out.

Would like to see distance penalty removed somehow to help keep tournament rounds moving. It would eliminate the extra time for a provisional and combined with shorter search times should equate to shorter rounds, or at least hopefully. I think something could be done for us average folks with the tour still implementing the 3 off the tee rule. Tournaments can get out of control long..i.e 5 hours or more. Which is one of the main reasons I don't play in too many tournaments.

Andrew M · March 2, 2017

I am a little late on replying here, but FWIW the PM-grind is very good in general conditions around the area for what I've noticed in my experience

av1084 · March 2, 2017

Anyone playing Sunday? Headed up to the mountains but could probably swing that.

ASak10 · March 2, 2017

I love the rule changes. I like the 1" drop, which I believe is basically for your second drop to keep it in your drop area if the first one rolled out.

Would like to see distance penalty removed somehow to help keep tournament rounds moving. It would eliminate the extra time for a provisional and combined with shorter search times should equate to shorter rounds, or at least hopefully. I think something could be done for us average folks with the tour still implementing the 3 off the tee rule. Tournaments can get out of control long..i.e 5 hours or more. Which is one of the main reasons I don't play in too many tournaments.

Actually from what I understand of reading about the new rule, the 1" drop applies to any and all drops. Love the proposed changes and even though I don't play in tournaments, I think they should help speed up and simplify everyday rounds.

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-proposed-changes/proposed-change--new-procedure-for-dropping-a-ball.html

Joelness · March 3, 2017

Anyone playing Sunday? Headed up to the mountains but could probably swing that.

I have an 11:15 @ Colorado National with one more spot if you want to fill it.

I love the rule changes. I like the 1" drop, which I believe is basically for your second drop to keep it in your drop area if the first one rolled out.

Would like to see distance penalty removed somehow to help keep tournament rounds moving. It would eliminate the extra time for a provisional and combined with shorter search times should equate to shorter rounds, or at least hopefully. I think something could be done for us average folks with the tour still implementing the 3 off the tee rule. Tournaments can get out of control long..i.e 5 hours or more. Which is one of the main reasons I don't play in too many tournaments.

Actually from what I understand of reading about the new rule, the 1" drop applies to any and all drops. Love the proposed changes and even though I don't play in tournaments, I think they should help speed up and simplify everyday rounds.

https://www.usga.org...ing-a-ball.html

ASak is correct, you can drop from any height, any time.

As for your second part irv, I did the USGA survey yesterday and one of the questions was "How likely are you to take a two-stroke penalty dropped from the area of the lost/OB ball?" So clearly they are thinking about the Stroke and distance rules. They had a few different questions about stroke and distance on that same page actually.

Ironically enough, my answer to that questions was "Highly unlikely." No way I'm taking a two stroke penalty and dropping in the crap where I can't find my ball, I'll just play another from the tee, thanks.

I disagree with you though on how long it takes to play a provisional. If you're a normal player it should be less than a minute to grab another ball and go through your routine again. Either way you're going to look for the first one so that time happens no matter what rule change you make. The big time sink is when you just hit a ball into the rough or a fairway bunker, don't take a provisional because it's just in the rough and then nobody finds it. Those are the only times I would likely take the two-stroke and drop in the area, but how often does that really happen? It only happens once a year for me, maybe.

I do agree with you that tournaments can be pretty brutal but what I won't agree with you on is that stroke and distance is the cause. I find the cause to be just generally slower play because everyone is trying to shave a shot or two so most all routines get longer. However, what the CGA did last year with their pace of play rules for their championship tournaments was unbelievably effective. I'm a little worried of excessive penalties for it but at the same time I don't think I played a round in the CGA Mid-AM last year that was over 4 hours.

pseudoswede · March 3, 2017

As for your second part irv, I did the USGA survey yesterday and one of the questions was "How likely are you to take a two-stroke penalty dropped from the area of the lost/OB ball?" So clearly they are thinking about the Stroke and distance rules. They had a few different questions about stroke and distance on that same page actually.

Ironically enough, my answer to that questions was "Highly unlikely." No way I'm taking a two stroke penalty and dropping in the crap where I can't find my ball, I'll just play another from the tee, thanks.

One local rule the Kennedy Men's Club had was if you lost a ball inside the course (like in the rough between fairways), you'd simply drop and take a penalty. Yes, if the ball ended up in a questionable area, you would hit a provisional. But there is nothing more aggravating to hit your ball into some benign rough, and then you can't find it.

cphrey · March 3, 2017

As for your second part irv, I did the USGA survey yesterday and one of the questions was "How likely are you to take a two-stroke penalty dropped from the area of the lost/OB ball?" So clearly they are thinking about the Stroke and distance rules. They had a few different questions about stroke and distance on that same page actually.

Ironically enough, my answer to that questions was "Highly unlikely." No way I'm taking a two stroke penalty and dropping in the crap where I can't find my ball, I'll just play another from the tee, thanks.

One local rule the Kennedy Men's Club had was if you lost a ball inside the course (like in the rough between fairways), you'd simply drop and take a penalty. Yes, if the ball ended up in a questionable area, you would hit a provisional. But there is nothing more aggravating to hit your ball into some benign rough, and then you can't find it.

Same rule at Wellshire mens club as well. There are so many areas between fws where a ball can hide. It is kind of ridiculous really when an entire group watches a ball come to rest in the middle of the course but then no one finds it.

forecast6236 · March 3, 2017

As for your second part irv, I did the USGA survey yesterday and one of the questions was "How likely are you to take a two-stroke penalty dropped from the area of the lost/OB ball?" So clearly they are thinking about the Stroke and distance rules. They had a few different questions about stroke and distance on that same page actually.

Ironically enough, my answer to that questions was "Highly unlikely." No way I'm taking a two stroke penalty and dropping in the crap where I can't find my ball, I'll just play another from the tee, thanks.

One local rule the Kennedy Men's Club had was if you lost a ball inside the course (like in the rough between fairways), you'd simply drop and take a penalty. Yes, if the ball ended up in a questionable area, you would hit a provisional. But there is nothing more aggravating to hit your ball into some benign rough, and then you can't find it.

Same rule at Wellshire mens club as well. There are so many areas between fws where a ball can hide. It is kind of ridiculous really when an entire group watches a ball come to rest in the middle of the course but then no one finds it.

Like the rough between 4 and 5.