Rolling back the ball

[buckeyefl]

Again opinion, not fact. Your ego is showing.

 

I mean i know this is the first time Augusta has made any changes to the course, and you are on several boards there but lets try to stick to the facts. IT MUST BE THE BALL!!!!!!!!!

[buckeyefl]

"Payne is already discussing, with Tom Fazio and others, the possibility of building a new back tee and a new green for the 5th hole. The club already has the land for that. The Augusta Country Club purchase would allow Augusta National to build a new back tee for the iconic par-5 13th hole. Payne would like to add roughly 25 yards to the hole and change the orientation of this new back tee so that the longest right-handed players cannot bomb towering draw shots toward the right trees and leave wedge shots into the green. Bubba Watson, a lefty, of course, hits a giant slice in that same direction.

That is an area of intense discussion within the club, because the hole is so beloved and so dramatic as it is, even if it does not play as a traditional par-5 anymore. But Payne's greater goal with this land purchase is to give the club more of a border that it can patrol, as a matter of security. Right now, with the back part of the 13th tee abutting the Augusta Country Club property, Augusta National does not have the feelings of control that is a central part of its DNA. Payne would like a road behind the 13th tee that can transport emergency, security and work vehicles."

 

Again there has been no change in tech in quite some time and none looming. Augusta is doing what Augusta has done for decades.

 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-complete-changes-to-augusta-national

[radiman]

Again opinion, not fact. Your ego is showing.

 

I mean i know this is the first time Augusta has made any changes to the course, and you are on several boards there but lets try to stick to the facts. IT MUST BE THE BALL!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's not forget that scoring hasn't really changed. I'm really worried that these changes are going to affect me when I play there. I mean how a private course handles their layout when scoring hasn't changed is a travesty.

[thug the bunny]

Again opinion, not fact. Your ego is showing.

 

I mean i know this is the first time Augusta has made any changes to the course, and you are on several boards there but lets try to stick to the facts. IT MUST BE THE BALL!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's not forget that scoring hasn't really changed. I'm really worried that these changes are going to affect me when I play there. I mean how a private course handles their layout when scoring hasn't changed is a travesty.

 

Yeah, I get a little more pissed every time I fly my Lear down there to play. I'm gonna have to pull Billy aside and have a word with him. I'll put in a good word for you.

[radiman]

Again opinion, not fact. Your ego is showing.

 

I mean i know this is the first time Augusta has made any changes to the course, and you are on several boards there but lets try to stick to the facts. IT MUST BE THE BALL!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's not forget that scoring hasn't really changed. I'm really worried that these changes are going to affect me when I play there. I mean how a private course handles their layout when scoring hasn't changed is a travesty.

 

Yeah, I get a little more pissed every time I fly my Lear down there to play. I'm gonna have to pull Billy aside and have a word with him. I'll put in a good word for you.

 

That would be great. It's a shame all these heathens show up and make a mockery of the course by not hitting their approach shots from the same places Nicklaus did. Hopefully the common folk lay down and accept a rollback so Augusta National doesn't have to spend any of their muti-millions to lengthen the course to force the issue.

[BNGL]

Thank y'all might wanna chat with Mr. Ridley, not Mr. Payne.

[radiman]

And the game of golf has no distance issues with the exception of 0.0001% of the people who play. The average driving distance for amateurs has hardly budged the last few decades from the stats I've seen.

 

drn92

 

true that the average hasn't moved much, which means they haven't seen the benefits of modern equipment....consequently they wouldn't experience any loss of distance either.

 

Call me a skeptic, but I do not think the USGA will be able to find a solution that does not materially impact the average golfer if they attempt to roll back the ball at the upper echelon.

 

drn92

 

It's a funny thing... Seven years on after the groove rule change, we've had commenters in this very thread saying that the groove rule somehow screwed average recreational players. When in in fact the rule didn't affect the clubs in any recreational player's bag. And the USGA is going to simply review it in 2020, with no "ban" anticipated until 2024, and maybe (probably) more like "never." The only people who had to switch out clubs were Tour players (2010), then US Am participants and NCAA players (two years later). Per a Condition of Competition, not any Rule.

 

A complete myth, that the groove rule forced anyone to switch out any clubs. And by 2024, the old-standard clubs will be 14 years old or more.

 

One thing you fail to acknowledge is that even though the rule will not be implemented until 2024, all of the major OEMs stopped producing the prior conforming grooves once the new rule was implemented for the elite tours in 2010. So in reality there really isn't a choice at this point when someone is looking to replace their wedges. The same would be likely if the ball was rolled back across the board with adoption by the PGA Tour.

 

It's no use. I've made this point more than once and he's yet to acknowledge it.

[storm319]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

[storm319]

It's a funny thing... Seven years on after the groove rule change, we've had commenters in this very thread saying that the groove rule somehow screwed average recreational players. When in in fact the rule didn't affect the clubs in any recreational player's bag. And the USGA is going to simply review it in 2020, with no "ban" anticipated until 2024, and maybe (probably) more like "never." The only people who had to switch out clubs were Tour players (2010), then US Am participants and NCAA players (two years later). Per a Condition of Competition, not any Rule.

 

A complete myth, that the groove rule forced anyone to switch out any clubs. And by 2024, the old-standard clubs will be 14 years old or more.

 

One thing you fail to acknowledge is that even though the rule will not be implemented until 2024, all of the major OEMs stopped producing the prior conforming grooves once the new rule was implemented for the elite tours in 2010. So in reality there really isn't a choice at this point when someone is looking to replace their wedges. The same would be likely if the ball was rolled back across the board with adoption by the PGA Tour.

 

It's no use. I've made this point more than once and he's yet to acknowledge it.

 

Whoops. Wrote this before reading your response then deleted just before you quoted. doh! BTW, I'm in MN too. Hopefully we're done with snow as I am itching to get out.

[Roadking2003]

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

Deal !!!!!

[radiman]

It's a funny thing... Seven years on after the groove rule change, we've had commenters in this very thread saying that the groove rule somehow screwed average recreational players. When in in fact the rule didn't affect the clubs in any recreational player's bag. And the USGA is going to simply review it in 2020, with no "ban" anticipated until 2024, and maybe (probably) more like "never." The only people who had to switch out clubs were Tour players (2010), then US Am participants and NCAA players (two years later). Per a Condition of Competition, not any Rule.

 

A complete myth, that the groove rule forced anyone to switch out any clubs. And by 2024, the old-standard clubs will be 14 years old or more.

 

One thing you fail to acknowledge is that even though the rule will not be implemented until 2024, all of the major OEMs stopped producing the prior conforming grooves once the new rule was implemented for the elite tours in 2010. So in reality there really isn't a choice at this point when someone is looking to replace their wedges. The same would be likely if the ball was rolled back across the board with adoption by the PGA Tour.

 

It's no use. I've made this point more than once and he's yet to acknowledge it.

 

Whoops. Wrote this before reading your response then deleted just before you quoted. doh! BTW, I'm in MN too. Hopefully we're done with snow as I am itching to get out.

 

Lol, what area in the state are you?

[Bye]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

[bladehunter]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

What came up when you googled them ? The poop emoji ?

[North Butte]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

Imagine if QPR were bottom of the table every year and there were no relegation. Repeat for 20 years.

 

Cleveland Browns.

[mosesgolf]

The ball goes further because today's tour player has taken advantage of technology to maximize distance. Today's tour players are more athletic. If the ball is going to be rolled back to make the game harder why not go back to 260cc head drivers? If the ball is rolled back 10% then don't longer hitters get penalized more? 350 x 10% = 35yards vs 280 x 10% = 28 yards. Where do you draw the line to make the game harder?

[Bye]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don't want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn't happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

What came up when you googled them ? The poop emoji ?

 

Lol, It was just a, ok football team. The rest was fairly self explanatory.

[Bye]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

Imagine if QPR were bottom of the table every year and there were no relegation. Repeat for 20 years.

 

Cleveland Browns.

 

10-4

 

You probably know more about our football (soccer) than I do.

 

The things you learn on WRX hey!

[buckeyefl]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don't want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn't happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

What came up when you googled them ? The poop emoji ?

 

I will be passing the stadium on my way home today. I call it "The Monumnet to Perpetual Mediocrity"

[gvogel]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don’t want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn’t happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

Hey, I'd like in on that deal as well ... if Scotland will accept me as a citizen.

[QMany]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

[rawdog]

Golfer who hits the ball 200-230 yards think a roll back is mad

 

Golfer who plays on a course that was designed after 2003 or is 7000 yards plus thinks a roll back is mad.

 

Golfer who plays on an older course under 6500 yards that can hit a driver 250+ through the air has a different perspective.

 

I don't want to make golfer harder for anyone. If the only way to roll back anything affects everyone then it shouldn't happen.

 

How about this compromise. The R&A can rollback whatever they want for Europe, the USGA will do nothing for North America, the US will deport tnord and 15th club to GB...and we'll throw in the Cleveland Browns to top it off. Deal?

 

I dread to think what you have planned for Jack and Mike Davis.

 

Anyone on WRX is welcome over here.

 

Even though my knowledge of US sports teams is reasonable, I had to Google the Cleveland Browns. But I guess that is the point!

 

What came up when you googled them ? The poop emoji ?

 

Lol, It was just a, ok football team. The rest was fairly self explanatory.

 

Nicest thing anyone has said about the Browns in quite a while.

[sirparalot]

Why would any course that had been altered need to undo anything? They could just use the forward tees. And then have more room for more fans.

 

I would think courses like Quail Hollow might be a bit annoyed.

 

No. That is not the intent of the Framers. Bunkers would have to be filled in, green complexes would have to be flattened and slowed down considerably, trees would have to be removed or replanted. We are talking about some major restoration projects.

 

Tiger says Augusta plays easier now (not sure I buy that), but check out how many things Augusta would have to change to roll it back! https://www.usatoday...anges/99964456/

 

Well you have lost me, I have no idea why anything would need to change at Augusta, unless there is nothing between the tournament tees and the members tees.

 

Maybe I can help here.

 

Indeed, there are only two sets of tees at ANGC. A members set of tees, which is really modest length, with tees located nearby to the previous green for easy walking. And then there is the ever-moving set of tournament tees. In some cases (11 is a good example) with the tournament tees being a considerable walk backwards to get to them.

 

If there was a major ball rollback, ANGC would be all-too happy, to move tournament tees back to more comfortable locations. Play just might be a shade easier and faster; it would definitely be a tiny bit easier walk.

 

Best of all, they'd save $25 million, if they didn't have to move #13 tee to the property next door at ACC, and move ACC's Ninth fairway.

 

Win, win, win for ANGC and ACC together.

 

This is true for every course the PGA plays on. Do people think that these courses lay dormant 51 other weeks of the year. There are enough tees for any distance and ball configuration that could be envisioned. Distance is not the determining factor in a great course. A great tournament can be played from 6500 yards when the ball goes 280. The only reason you need 7500 is because the ball goes 340. There is nothing wrong with forward tees!!!

[15th Club]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

This notion has been raised maybe a dozen times in this long thread. Here is the simplified response:

1. It is easier to hit softened fairways.
   
2. Softened fairways remove an important element from golf course design and strategic golf thinking; how will the ball bounce and roll out on the ground. "The ground game."
   
3. Fairways that are so heavily soaked so as to slow down drives are fairways that won't be able to resist any added moisture if it rains heavily during tournament week. The chances of rainouts and delayed play are dramatically increased.
   
4. Fairways that are so heavily soaked so as to slow down drives are also fairways that at more likely to produce mudballs, casual water (see above) and other conditions that are undesirable to good playing conditions.
   

[QMany]

There is a lot of area between bounding runways that afford 8% of total distance and “so heavily soaked.”

[Shilgy]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

I read on wrx that every tee shot gets 50 yards. Rory led the tour last year and averaged 12.1 yards of roll. Hagy averaged 8.3.

[buckeyefl]

Yes because watering schedules can't be adjust based on weather and we have zero technology for predicting weather and PGA tour certainly doesn't have their own meteorologist and they NEVER monitor course conditions at an OCD level.

 

ROLL BACK THE BALL. ITS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO SAVE COURSES FROM THE BEST .0001% OF GOLFERS IN THE WORLD. DOOOOOOOOMMMMMM

[North Butte]

There is a lot of area between bounding runways that afford 8% of total distance and "so heavily soaked."

 

Yes, they could start not by "soaking" but by simply NOT doing every single thing humanly possible to make the ball roll farther. If you watch any PGA Tour golf at all it should be obvious that they are "all in" and 100% behind aiding the distance their players hit the ball. The Tour is the farthest thing from worried about THE BALL GOES TOO FAR, they are all about Distance Sells.

[Sean2]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

I have been saying the same thing. I was watching the Farmer's a couple of years ago and it was soaking wet. Many of the drives on TrackMan were in the 270 - 280 range. Rolling the ball back is a solution without a problem.

[15th Club]

Wait just a minute! I thought all of you were arguing that distance is good; it is exciting. Chicks Dig The Long Ball. It helps with tv ratings, and is fun to watch, live, and why would we want to constrain some great athletes who have found a place within the game of golf to display their athleticism?

 

Why don't you want fairways that encourage distance? Moar distance = moar good, right?

 

I swear; the rhetorical knots that some equipment fanyboyz are willing to tie themselves into, in order to avoid a ball rollback.

 

Balls are tightly regulated now. They will be tightly regulated going forward. They were tightly regulated going back as far as anyone reading this can recall. All that we are talking about is a small change in those regulations. Just like past changes in regulations.

 

You all want to slow down fairways, to counteract the distance that balls can travel with present-day equipment in the hands of Tour golfers?

 

I ask again, for the 100th time in this thread; why do all of this other stuff (slowed-down fairways, ultra-fast greens, thick rough, narrowed landing areas), when the ball is the simplest and easiest thing to fix?

 

I'd sooner understand somebody who took the position of, "Let's do absolutely nothing," than somebody who keeps fiddling with little things around the edges to avoid any discussion of, or change in, ball specifications. I wouldn't agree with, or even much respect, the "Let's do nothing" position. But it might be harder to argue with.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Wait just a minute! I thought all of you were arguing that distance is good; it is exciting. Chicks Dig The Long Ball. It helps with tv ratings, and is fun to watch, live, and why would we want to constrain some great athletes who have found a place within the game of golf to display their athleticism?

 

Why don't you want fairways that encourage distance? Moar distance = moar good, right?

 

I swear; the rhetorical knots that some equipment fanyboyz are will to tie themselves into, in order to avoid a ball rollback.

 

Balls are tightly regulated now. They will be tightly regulated going forward. They were tightly regulated going back as far as anyone reading this can recall. All that we are talking about is a small change in those regulations. Just like past changes in regulations.

 

You all want to slow down fairways, to counteract the distance that balls can travel with present-day equipment in the hands of Tour golfers?

 

I ask again, for the 100th time in this thread; why do all of this other stuff (slowed-down fairways, ultra-fast greens, thick rough, narrowed landing areas), when the ball is the simplest and easiest thing to fix?

 

I'd sooner understand somebody who took the position of, "Let's do absolutely nothing," than somebody who keeps fiddling with little things around the edges to avoid any discussion of, or change in, ball specifications. I wouldn't agree with, or even much respect, the "Let's do nothing" position. But it might be harder to argue with.

 

Because nothing needs to be fixed. Keep it as is. Caps are in place. Scoring and distance are pretty flat.

The "problem" you always go back to is that courses are getting longer and it's expensive. Want to change that? Tell the governing bodies that courses don't need to be any longer. That's the easiest thing to "fix".

 

Of course, then you'd still have to listen to a lot of people trying to come up with objective "reasons" for a rollback when they are really just buying the rantings of the Legends.