Cage Match to the DEATH: LPGA Tour vs. Middle-aged Scratch and Below

[aenemated]

16 hours ago, Ralphyboy84 said:

I’m a member at Carnoustie.

 

All I have to say is I am immensely envious that your home course is my single favorite place on Earth.

[Yuck]

I think part of the issue is that a comparison of “best” Scratch AM rounds relative to Average or worst LPGA rounds creates a situation where several scratch players will have a lower score than several LPGA players.  This is fine, since the question is “can”, not “will”.

 

But, if we compare best vs. best, average vs average or worst vs worst, it would be very rare for a scratch player to come out on top over 72 holes in any sort of apples to apples comparison with an LPGA tour field.

[Ralphyboy84]

1 hour ago, aenemated said:

 

All I have to say is I am immensely envious that your home course is my single favorite place on Earth.

Thanks buddy. Totally take it for granted but comments like that always make me appreciate how lucky I am

[Obee]

7 hours ago, Ralphyboy84 said:

Thanks buddy. Totally take it for granted but comments like that always make me appreciate how lucky I am

I played it nine or ten years ago. It was the first course we played when we got to Scotland the very next morning after we landed the previous afternoon.

 

I had never been overseas and had jet lag so bad that the ground felt like it was moving beneath me. It was crazy. By the next day, I felt fine.

 

My buddy, a very solid am, managed a 73. I ... did not. Played poorly and want another crack at 'er!! 😉

[aenemated]

23 minutes ago, Obee said:

Played poorly and want another crack at 'er!! 😉

 

I managed an 81. With the exception of 16 which I stuck a 5W to around 12 feet or so, the last 5 holes beat me up good. 

 

My lowest score ever was a 68 at Keith Hills CC in Buies Creek, NC some 30 years ago. But I consider that 81 at Carnoustie the best round of golf I've ever played. 

[North Texas]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:06 PM, Obee said:

This thread is to give a real good look at what the difference is, RalphyBoy. That's all it is. No one's saying that a male scratch can beat an LPGA player over four rounds. At least I'm sure not saying that.

 

This is about as close a comparison as you're going to get, though: Same course. Similar conditions. Tournament prepped. Similar time of year. It's a bit longer for us, but that's it. If this thread somehow offends you, you should probably just steer clear. I have no idea why it would, when my stated goal is clear: Have a fun, yet quite accurate comparison between a group of scratch"ish" ams and the LPGAers who tee it up at Wilshire. No, there's no "Playing for a living" pressure on the ams, but it sure is pressure for many of the guys playing on aggregate day, I can tell you that! 😉

 

And keep in mind, we're not talking about just the winners, but the whole field -- including those who missed the cut. The cut was +2 at the Women's Open. Could you shoot 73, 73? Have you done that before? From 6,850? I'm guessing you have -- quite a few times, actually.

 

On second thought, do you have the scores from your club championships over the years? I'm guessing that plenty of ams have gone around in right around par for two rounds before from 6,850. Probably quite a few scores of 73, 74, 79. Or 80, 71, 75, etc. Do you have any scores from prior years? I'm sure there were years when the weather was brutal and scores where high, and other years where the weather cooperated and scores were reasonable. Would love to know, actually.

 

Anyhoo, not sure why you get so seemingly offended by this thread. There is zero ill will here. It's golf, and questions of "how big is the gap between _____ and ______" have been around forever. That's one of the coolest things about golf, actually: We all play the same courses, so it's fun to compare -- at least for some of us.... 

 

I must be missing something. I didn't read anything in @Ralphyboy84's post that indicated he was offended by anything. 

[Obee]

3 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Obee
Deleted

[Obee]

So the 2022 Macbeth has come and gone. What a great tournament this year. The final day is going to be a tough comparison due to the green speeds we faced. Ladies played the greens about about 11. We were at 13+. Just reached out to the super to confirm details. Photos to come.

 

 

  

-3.4    -3.4    -3.4    69
-1.9    -3.3    -2.6    79
-1.9    -2.3    -2.1    71
-1.8    -3.7    -2.8    80
-1.5    -3.1    -2.3    73
-1.2    -1.4    -1.3    71
-1.1    -3.4    -2.3    78
-1.1    -3.0    -2.1    79
-1.1    -2.5    -1.8    77
-0.8    -2.0    -1.4    77
-0.7    -1.0    -0.9    69
-0.5    -3.7    -2.1    70
-0.4    -2.5    -1.5    80
-0.4    -2.1    -1.3    74
-0.4    -1.6    -1.0    77
-0.3    -2.1    -1.2    79
-0.2    -4.1    -2.2    78
0.0    -3.3    -1.7    73
0.0    -1.6    -0.8    77
0.2    -1.5    -0.7    70
0.3    -3.5    -1.6    81
0.3    -1.3    -0.5    83
0.4    -1.7    -0.7    75
0.4    -0.9    -0.3    87
0.4    0.1    0.3    79
0.7    -0.2    0.3    77
0.7    0.7    0.7    88
0.8    -0.2    0.3    76
0.8    0.2    0.5    82
0.9    -2.7    -0.9    78
0.9    -1.3    -0.2    81
0.9    0.4    0.7    81
1.0    -0.7    0.2    86
1.0    0.6    0.8    81
1.1    -0.1    0.5    76
1.1    0.4    0.8    81
1.2    -1.4    -0.1    73
1.4    -0.3    0.6    73
1.5    -1.3    0.1    77
1.9    -1.7    0.1    83
2.0    0.5    1.3    72
2.2    0.0    1.1    77
2.3    0.1    1.2    78
2.4    0.1    1.3    78
2.4    0.7    1.6    84
2.6    0.1    1.4    82
2.8    0.1    1.5    81
2.8    0.6    1.7    79
3.1    0.0    1.6    77
3.2    0.3    1.8    79
3.2    0.5    1.9    85
4.0    0.1    2.1    79 

 

[Argonne69]

19 players at scratch or better, and five shoot par or better. Six players overall shoot par or better (12%). 17 rounds in the 80s. Two rounds in the 60s. 

 

By comparison, 45 LPGA players shot par or better in the first round, or roughly 30% of the field. Six rounds of 80 or worse were shot in 434 rounds during the 4 days. 17 players shot 69 or better during the opening round. 

 

The sole 4 capper in the field shot 79, and would have beat zero LPGA players (74) in the 1st round who made the cut, and two of the 70+ players who missed the cut. 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Argonne69

[Obee]

Edited June 1, 2022 by Obee

[Obee]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

19 players at scratch or better, and five shoot par or better. Six players overall shoot par or better (12%). 17 rounds in the 80s. Two rounds in the 60s. 

 

By comparison, 45 LPGA players shot par or better in the first round, or roughly 30% of the field. Six rounds of 80 or worse were shot in 434 rounds during the 4 days. 17 players shot 69 or better during the opening round. 

 

The sole 4 capper in the field shot 79, and would have beat zero LPGA players (74) in the 1st round who made the cut, and two of the 70+ players who missed the cut. 

 

Right now I'm going to say the course played 1.5 to 2 strokes tougher for us. Pending confirmation from the super on the final day (our only "must hole out all shots" day).

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Obee said:

Right now I'm going to say the course played 1.5 to 2 strokes tougher for us. Pending confirmation from the super on the final day (our only "must hole out all shots" day).

Why ask the super? Don’t the scores get posted?  Was there any PCC adjustment?  
 

edited to add….that would not be a exact assessment but I would guess, based on knowledge of LPGA prep,  that the 1.5 to 2 would be compared to daily play…not ladies tour setup.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Shilgy

[Obee]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Why ask the super? Don’t the scores get posted?  Was there any PCC adjustment?  
 

edited to add….that would not be a exact assessment but I would guess, based on knowledge of LPGA prep,  that the 1.5 to 2 would be compared to daily play…not ladies tour setup.

Our greens were 13+
 

Theirs were not.

16 we played at 550. Final round they play at 440, etc. 

 

Checking with the super on what they prepped the greens to for the tournament.

 

It will be similar to previous years: About two strokes difference from the LPGA average score to the scratch players average. That's my guess, anyway.

[Obee]

12 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Why ask the super? Don’t the scores get posted?  Was there any PCC adjustment?  
 

edited to add….that would not be a exact assessment but I would guess, based on knowledge of LPGA prep,  that the 1.5 to 2 would be compared to daily play…not ladies tour setup.

 

Did you see the pics I added?

[iGolf67]

I haven't read the entire thread, but generally speaking I imagine an LPGA Tour player would beat a scratch golfer more often than not. 

 

Maybe I am wrong here, but comparing a scratch golfer to a Touring pro would be like comparing a 15 HI to a scratch golfer. 

[Obee]

1 minute ago, iGolf67 said:

I haven't read the entire thread, but generally speaking I imagine an LPGA Tour player would beat a scratch golfer more often than not. 

 

Maybe I am wrong here, but comparing a scratch golfer to a Touring pro would be like comparing a 15 HI to a scratch golfer. 

 

They definitely will. This thread is an attempt to quantify "by how much." 🙂

 

[isaacbm]

Ouch, my brain… 🔨

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Ouch, my brain… 🔨

Ice cream brain freeze?🍨

[Yuck]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:20 PM, Shilgy said:

Why ask the super? Don’t the scores get posted?  Was there any PCC adjustment?  
 

edited to add….that would not be a exact assessment but I would guess, based on knowledge of LPGA prep,  that the 1.5 to 2 would be compared to daily play…not ladies tour setup.

Agreed.  The PCC for all who posted that day should capture the more difficult conditions.

[Obee]

3 hours ago, Yuck said:

Agreed.  The PCC for all who posted that day should capture the more difficult conditions.

 

PCC only captures ridiculous conditions. Greens at 13 vs 11 won't show up in PCC. It's not like it's a 5 shot difference.

[Yuck]

39 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

PCC only captures ridiculous conditions. Greens at 13 vs 11 won't show up in PCC. It's not like it's a 5 shot difference.

PCC does not actually use conditions per se, it uses expected scores for a day of play vs what scores were actually shot that day.  It can be impacted by tricked up pin positions, setup length, or just everyone playing exceptionally bad that day on that course.  Most commonly, wind is the driving factor, but the automatic calculation does not care what caused the higher than expected scores,

 

BTW, max PCC adjustment is 3 shots, but I have never experienced more than 2.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Yuck

[Obee]

6 hours ago, Yuck said:

PCC does not actually use conditions per se, it uses expected scores for a day of play vs what scores were actually shot that day.  It can be impacted by tricked up pin positions, setup length, or just everyone playing exceptionally bad that day on that course.  Most commonly, wind is the driving factor, but the automatic calculation does not care what caused the higher than expected scores,

 

BTW, max PCC adjustment is 3 shots, but I have never experienced more than 2.

 

Yes, saying the same thing. I've had one PCC round since it started. Winds of 35 sustained. Gusting to 50. There are clearly conditions that are more difficult than others where PCC is not part of the equation. The Macbeth is one of these when comparing to the conditions for the LPGA event.

 

And I'm not special pleading. The conditions were simply tougher. Again, my guess is about 1 to 1.5 shots different. We're trying to get a fair comparison, and that's all I'm doing is adding info to the conversation.

 

[Argonne69]

30 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Yes, saying the same thing. I've had one PCC round since it started. Winds of 35 sustained. Gusting to 50. There are clearly conditions that are more difficult than others where PCC is not part of the equation. The Macbeth is one of these when comparing to the conditions for the LPGA event.

 

And I'm not special pleading. The conditions were simply tougher. Again, my guess is about 1 to 1.5 shots different. We're trying to get a fair comparison, and that's all I'm doing is adding info to the conversation.

 

 

Green speeds don't factor into a course rating. However, length does. If the LPGA shortened several holes then I can see a stroke or two higher. 209 to 230 yds adds a stroke to the rating. 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Argonne69

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Green speeds don't factor into a course rating. However, length does. If the LPGA shortened several holes then I can see a stroke or two higher. 

 

 

But they factor into scoring average over the short term, absolutely. The reason they don't factor into course rating is because without adjusting the course rating daily, it's not possible.

 

And, yes, we played the course about 200 to 250 yards longer.

[Shilgy]

Course rating IS based on typical conditions….not just the day it was rated.  So green speeds….fairway width….rough height…all contribute to the course rating.

So if a courses greens are typically cut to 10 on the stimp and they are running 13….the pins are cut cluster to the edge and slopes….the rough is an inch and a half higher than normal…plus the sheer fact that typically tournament scores will be slightly higher than daily scores playing hit and giggle….?
 

Yeah, I’d expect PCC  kick in.

 

Based on the scores @obee shared where you had a lot of higher than normal scores for the fields handicap range I would have expected an adjustment.   All that matters is scores posted.  Weather has nothing to do with it OTHER THAN the resulting scores.

 

[Forged4life]

On 6/7/2022 at 11:54 AM, Yuck said:

PCC does not actually use conditions per se, it uses expected scores for a day of play vs what scores were actually shot that day.  It can be impacted by tricked up pin positions, setup length, or just everyone playing exceptionally bad that day on that course.  Most commonly, wind is the driving factor, but the automatic calculation does not care what caused the higher than expected scores,

 

BTW, max PCC adjustment is 3 shots, but I have never experienced more than 2.

I swear they never actually apply PCC  played the same course one day 30 mph wind, next day no wind. Same rating etc. and obviously windy day was way tougher 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Forged4life

[SurfDuffer]

Played yesterday with a girl who played 4 years on the LPGA tour.  I don't think any of the scratch handicap players I've played with would touch her from any set of tees unless her bad day miraculously lined up with the scratch player's best day.  I've got one friend who is a +3 that I think would match up pretty well with her.  Her drives were all in the 280 yard range and deadly accurate.  She only missed a couple of greens but recovered exceptionally well.  Her short game and putting were off the charts.  And this is a girl who fell off the tour after 4 years.  Interestingly she told me that her husband who is a scratch golfer has never beaten her for 18 holes but he has beaten her in 9-hole rounds.

[Obee]

20 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Course rating IS based on typical conditions….not just the day it was rated.  So green speeds….fairway width….rough height…all contribute to the course rating.

So if a courses greens are typically cut to 10 on the stimp and they are running 13….the pins are cut cluster to the edge and slopes….the rough is an inch and a half higher than normal…plus the sheer fact that typically tournament scores will be slightly higher than daily scores playing hit and giggle….?
 

Yeah, I’d expect PCC  kick in.

 

Based on the scores @obee shared where you had a lot of higher than normal scores for the fields handicap range I would have expected an adjustment.   All that matters is scores posted.  Weather has nothing to do with it OTHER THAN the resulting scores.

 

 

Dude.

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, Obee said:

 

Dude.

Yo

 

[tatertot]

8 hours ago, SurfDuffer said:

Played yesterday with a girl who played 4 years on the LPGA tour.  I don't think any of the scratch handicap players I've played with would touch her from any set of tees unless her bad day miraculously lined up with the scratch player's best day.  I've got one friend who is a +3 that I think would match up pretty well with her.  Her drives were all in the 280 yard range and deadly accurate.  She only missed a couple of greens but recovered exceptionally well.  Her short game and putting were off the charts.  And this is a girl who fell off the tour after 4 years.  Interestingly she told me that her husband who is a scratch golfer has never beaten her for 18 holes but he has beaten her in 9-hole rounds.

Heads up ... women don't like to be called girls anymore than you like to be called boy.