Irons: Player iron vs Juiced iron (i500, 790, Apex CF, PXG, TMB)

[bladehunter]

Common thread in reading here is low speed players are a fan of the hot irons.

 

That's alll good. But why so much misinfo out there regarding their benefit for all players ?

 

I posted this on another thread a couple weeks ago. I tried out a senior playing partners 790 7 iron on the range. He actually asked me to hit it.citing how much distance he'd picked up over his mizuno set. I forget now the exact carry. But it was something like 212 twice ( just over the 210 marker) and then 3rd ball 221 off a tee. My stock 7 iron is 170. Rediculous Jump in Distance. How would that benefit me ? How many wedges would I need ? 8? I'm not even close to the longest guy here. Nor in my normal playing circles. I personally am glad some get the benefit of this tech. I just don't see a use for it at all.

 

You need to get on tour, as i don't think Dustin Johnson hits the P790 7 iron to that much carry, saw a couple of pro's with 92-95mph 7 iron speed carry them 185-190 though, so you must be smashing that 7 iron more than 100mph!

 

Nah. I deloft quite a bit although speed on that teed up one was probably humming along pretty good. I’m pretty fast but that wasn’t my point. My point was the huge jump over my 170 yard 7 iron of traditional make and spec.

 

I’d bet dj can hit his blade 7 iron over 200 if he wants to. And besides. They don’t give any points or deduct any for speed. Loll

[GolfTurkey]

I can see the uses for this tech although it doesn't fit everyone. Here are 3 examples where it may fit:

 

The good player looking for a more forgiving, easy to launch long iron that looks like a player's iron (little offset, thinnish top line etc.). Finau uses an i500 3 iron.

 

Seniors or other low speed players who need help getting the ball up in the air and need extra speed so there are gaps between the clubs, especially if they don't like hybrids or SGI irons.

 

Also people like me. Was around 92 mph SS hitting the 7 iron today, but I'm a low ball hitter because I'm a chronic shaft leaner/delofter. I'm trying to improve my swing but will always be towards that end of the spectrum.

 

The i500 in retro spec loft (2 degrees extra loft which increases spin and reduces distance) is the first iron I have ever hit where I get a nice high ball flight when making my normal swing. Could be a game changer because I struggle with hybrids which I have also tried. In retro spec it doesn't go stupidly far (for me anyway) and it spins nicely. Have ordered 5,6 and 7 irons and will add more either side of that if they work out.

[mahonie]

Common thread in reading here is low speed players are a fan of the hot irons.

 

That's alll good. But why so much misinfo out there regarding their benefit for all players ?

 

I posted this on another thread a couple weeks ago. I tried out a senior playing partners 790 7 iron on the range. He actually asked me to hit it.citing how much distance he'd picked up over his mizuno set. I forget now the exact carry. But it was something like 212 twice ( just over the 210 marker) and then 3rd ball 221 off a tee. My stock 7 iron is 170. Rediculous Jump in Distance. How would that benefit me ? How many wedges would I need ? 8? I'm not even close to the longest guy here. Nor in my normal playing circles. I personally am glad some get the benefit of this tech. I just don't see a use for it at all.

 

You need to get on tour, as i don't think Dustin Johnson hits the P790 7 iron to that much carry, saw a couple of pro's with 92-95mph 7 iron speed carry them 185-190 though, so you must be smashing that 7 iron more than 100mph!

 

Nah. I deloft quite a bit although speed on that teed up one was probably humming along pretty good. I’m pretty fast but that wasn’t my point. My point was the huge jump over my 170 yard 7 iron of traditional make and spec.

 

I’d bet dj can hit his blade 7 iron over 200 if he wants to. And besides. They don’t give any points or deduct any for speed. Loll

 

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

[puttingmatt]

If these players distance irons do not help your score, then why buy them?

Are you playing golf for score, or just to see how far you hit a nine iron ?

 

I think a few years from now, all this newer and the improvements will sort

Themselves out , and will get to some really good irons with multi layer metals

And tech , Blah, Blah, until then, golfers will pay the price for mediocre results

Till then, consistancy with distance will suffer. Seems like the trade offs are more

Than they are worth.

[SwooshLT]

If these players distance irons do not help your score, then why buy them?

Are you playing golf for score, or just to see how far you hit a nine iron ?

 

I think a few years from now, all this newer and the improvements will sort

Themselves out , and will get to some really good irons with multi layer metals

And tech , Blah, Blah, until then, golfers will pay the price for mediocre results

Till then, consistancy with distance will suffer. Seems like the trade offs are more

Than they are worth.

 

 

I always felt the need for a more forgiving iron but didn't want to give up feel and looks....with PXG , I've found that "unicorn" club that gives tons of forgiveness but awesome feel, control and looks great from address position TO ME!

[Beastmode Broker]

For me the first two things I look at in a set, is how the 4 iron and PW look. Is there a bit of offset in the 4 i, but not too much that it looks "hooky".

Does the PW have very little offset and not look "scoopy" (I've also learned that a clubs finish can make the PW look scoopy, even tho it really isn't) .

If both of those pass, now is the sole thin enough for me to get it through the turf?

Its a constant battle when deciding on sets and I haven't found "the one" yet. Although the MP 18 SC/MB combo was close, its not quite there.

 

so to recap:

-playable non hooky 4 iron

-non scoopy PW

-thin enough but not too thin sole

 

I agree on distance not being an issue from 6-PW. I carry a 6i 186 and hit the ball very high. Really other than from 8-PW, I'm really only looking to hit the middle of the green.

But when I do and have 185 to the middle, pull 6 iron, I expect the ball to go 185 and not go 195-200, because of some crazy tech in the club face.

 

the set literally doesn't exist & I'm sure I am 100% crazy AF ;)

 

Edit: IT actually does though. I've been playing my very old, beat up Cleveland TA2's and to my eye, are perfect at address.

[manima1]

I always go back to the fact that forged CB's are "slow everywhere" - so while nutted shots don't go nearly as far as the speed irons, the drop off from a mishit to a centered hit seems to be less FOR ME.

 

Coming from AP1's to 745' my biggest takeaways:

-Lower, more penetrating flight

-Much better front to back dispersion

-Much more stopping power, more spin

-Better feel

-Better out of rough due to smaller head, thinner soles

-Less overall distance by about 1 club

[Razorback84]

I recently lucked into a set of 718 AP2's for a really good price, I was playing CF16's before (which I still love), but I think I'm way more constant with the AP2's. With the AP2's I know what the distance is going to be and I know when I hit the green they are going to stay because of the spin. I lost about 1 to 1.25 of a club from my CF16's. They only down side to me is I get punished more with mishits.

[tyorke1]

makes par5's into long par4s,

[Golfjack]

The myth was busted with some testing I guess regarding accuracy, but people generally play what they like. I like the better looking less forgiving ones, and just hit hybrids for 200+ yard shots that are not driver. Most of my irons I can hit for distances less than that reliably. I'd like to say I can hit my 4 iron to 200 yards reliably, but... it's way easier to easy swing a 22 degree hybrid than to nut a 4 iron. But short irons I don't care. What's the point of having to club down. I don't get any joy from saying I'm hitting 9 iron at 160 yards or something when it's more the club than me. I definitely agree longer clubs can use those clubs. Thus a combo set works best IMO.

[bladehunter]

Common thread in reading here is low speed players are a fan of the hot irons.

 

That's alll good. But why so much misinfo out there regarding their benefit for all players ?

 

I posted this on another thread a couple weeks ago. I tried out a senior playing partners 790 7 iron on the range. He actually asked me to hit it.citing how much distance he'd picked up over his mizuno set. I forget now the exact carry. But it was something like 212 twice ( just over the 210 marker) and then 3rd ball 221 off a tee. My stock 7 iron is 170. Rediculous Jump in Distance. How would that benefit me ? How many wedges would I need ? 8? I'm not even close to the longest guy here. Nor in my normal playing circles. I personally am glad some get the benefit of this tech. I just don't see a use for it at all.

 

You need to get on tour, as i don't think Dustin Johnson hits the P790 7 iron to that much carry, saw a couple of pro's with 92-95mph 7 iron speed carry them 185-190 though, so you must be smashing that 7 iron more than 100mph!

 

Nah. I deloft quite a bit although speed on that teed up one was probably humming along pretty good. I’m pretty fast but that wasn’t my point. My point was the huge jump over my 170 yard 7 iron of traditional make and spec.

 

I’d bet dj can hit his blade 7 iron over 200 if he wants to. And besides. They don’t give any points or deduct any for speed. Loll

 

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

 

 

great post !! great video! Notice how Faldo loved the initial older MP blade right off and he fought for solid contact on the new JPX forged ( or whatever its called) ... trackman of course showed a pickup in numbers but he only made solid contact 1 of 3 at best ... with the first iron he was striking them in silence and then says " i may have to get you to make me a retro set of these"... Why on earth would anyone play an iron that they hit that much worse? for the number on the sole?

 

would love to have seen them go loft for loft

[otw]

Loft for loft absolutely. That would be true indication of advancement in technology. Have a suspicion the differences would surprise some.

[bladehunter]

Loft for loft absolutely. That would be true indication of advancement in technology. Have a suspicion the differences would surprise some.

 

Yep. Data thy just showed suggests that loft for loft the two would be very very similar in distance and spin.

[rgk5]

Got rid of Rogue Pro Irons for this reason . The wide sole off of tight FL fairways didn't work. They were fine off a tee with a sweeping swing. Went back to MP 68 with immediate improvement in ball contact. Wide soles don't mesh with all swings.

 

The sole on the Rogue Pro is 5/8" wide. The sole on the Titleist AP2 is 5/8" wide. The sole on your MP68 is perhaps 1/16"- to-1/8" of an inch narrower and apart from bounce angle, the difference in turf contact should be miniscule.

[bladehunter]

Got rid of Rogue Pro Irons for this reason . The wide sole off of tight FL fairways didn't work. They were fine off a tee with a sweeping swing. Went back to MP 68 with immediate improvement in ball contact. Wide soles don't mesh with all swings.

 

The sole on the Rogue Pro is 5/8" wide. The sole on the Titleist AP2 is 5/8" wide. The sole on your MP68 is perhaps 1/16"- to-1/8" of an inch narrower and apart from bounce angle, the difference in turf contact should be miniscule.

 

Respectfully That’s 1/8 to 1/4 of the total width , wider. Pretty good difference if you toss in a sharper leading edge and less bounce angle.

[mahonie]

Common thread in reading here is low speed players are a fan of the hot irons.

 

That's alll good. But why so much misinfo out there regarding their benefit for all players ?

 

I posted this on another thread a couple weeks ago. I tried out a senior playing partners 790 7 iron on the range. He actually asked me to hit it.citing how much distance he'd picked up over his mizuno set. I forget now the exact carry. But it was something like 212 twice ( just over the 210 marker) and then 3rd ball 221 off a tee. My stock 7 iron is 170. Rediculous Jump in Distance. How would that benefit me ? How many wedges would I need ? 8? I'm not even close to the longest guy here. Nor in my normal playing circles. I personally am glad some get the benefit of this tech. I just don't see a use for it at all.

 

You need to get on tour, as i don't think Dustin Johnson hits the P790 7 iron to that much carry, saw a couple of pro's with 92-95mph 7 iron speed carry them 185-190 though, so you must be smashing that 7 iron more than 100mph!

 

Nah. I deloft quite a bit although speed on that teed up one was probably humming along pretty good. I’m pretty fast but that wasn’t my point. My point was the huge jump over my 170 yard 7 iron of traditional make and spec.

 

I’d bet dj can hit his blade 7 iron over 200 if he wants to. And besides. They don’t give any points or deduct any for speed. Loll

 

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

 

 

great post !! great video! Notice how Faldo loved the initial older MP blade right off and he fought for solid contact on the new JPX forged ( or whatever its called) ... trackman of course showed a pickup in numbers but he only made solid contact 1 of 3 at best ... with the first iron he was striking them in silence and then says " i may have to get you to make me a retro set of these"... Why on earth would anyone play an iron that they hit that much worse? for the number on the sole?

 

would love to have seen them go loft for loft

 

I found it fascinating that the main ‘feel’ difference for Faldo was in the bounce with more of a radius on the modern clubs...although he didn’t say whether he thought it was better or worse! I agree that he seemed to get better strikes with the old club and almost seemed to forget that he was supposed to be marketing the modern clubs.

[SwingMan]

My G400 irons are hot-faced compared to the ones I used to play (older G series 10, 15). I love the height and extra distance, but I am still struggling with chipping, bump and runs around the green. The ball jumps off the face more than I was used to. Haven't thought abut going back to the G10s.....................yet.

 

Use the 50-60 blade wedges around the green.

[SwingMan]

The i500 does not have wide soles or a thick topline - I guess it's labeled as a player's distance iron (low to mid capper)

[Jordan Speeth]

I have found lots of golf "brothers" on this thread. I too prefer a thin sole and a small clubhead, but I'm a 63 year old cancer patient who plays a US Open course in the cold wind and fog and I need lots of help with my distance. The i500, while not ideal, is an answer to my prayers for now. I'm back to hitting the clubs into holes that I was hitting 25 years ago, and that's better than 4 wood or hybrid on every hole. Seriously, that's just not much fun for me. I'm actually still playing GOLF, not bumping it down the fairway from the senior tees. BTW, we do have a beautifully conceived forward-tee system for our large super-senior membership and they enjoy it a lot....I'm just not psychologically ready for that yet <lol>.

[otw]

Got rid of Rogue Pro Irons for this reason . The wide sole off of tight FL fairways didn't work. They were fine off a tee with a sweeping swing. Went back to MP 68 with immediate improvement in ball contact. Wide soles don't mesh with all swings.

 

The sole on the Rogue Pro is 5/8" wide. The sole on the Titleist AP2 is 5/8" wide. The sole on your MP68 is perhaps 1/16"- to-1/8" of an inch narrower and apart from bounce angle, the difference in turf contact should be miniscule.

This is interesting info. The R Pros not only do have more bounce but the leading edge is more blunted. Will take your measurements as correct. The best part of the info for me is after all these years as an instructor and author, coming off a back injury layoff, that my swing is still precise enough to detect the differences in the sole design.

[easyyy]

As I read through this whole thread looks like the majority are together. Seems consistent as the players speed goes down, the need for distance heads increases.

 

Combo sets and where the break sits in the set is dependent on the player.

[Nessism]

 

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

 

 

great post !! great video! Notice how Faldo loved the initial older MP blade right off and he fought for solid contact on the new JPX forged ( or whatever its called) ... trackman of course showed a pickup in numbers but he only made solid contact 1 of 3 at best ... with the first iron he was striking them in silence and then says " i may have to get you to make me a retro set of these"... Why on earth would anyone play an iron that they hit that much worse? for the number on the sole?

 

would love to have seen them go loft for loft

 

I found it fascinating that the main ‘feel’ difference for Faldo was in the bounce with more of a radius on the modern clubs...although he didn’t say whether he thought it was better or worse! I agree that he seemed to get better strikes with the old club and almost seemed to forget that he was supposed to be marketing the modern clubs.

 

Apparently you guys were watching a different video than me. Faldo seemed to like all the clubs and he struck them all pretty well. I was surprised by his club head speed, particularly since his back swing was only about 3/4 and he didn't seem to be exerting himself all that much.

 

He commented that the modern clubs had more sole camber, which he seemed to like based on the fact that he plays the 900 Pro irons currently. His shot distance and spin was directly linked to the loft. The total distance between old and new was about 20 yards, which was attributed mostly to the loft. Pretty much exactly what one would expect.

[mahonie]

 

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

 

 

great post !! great video! Notice how Faldo loved the initial older MP blade right off and he fought for solid contact on the new JPX forged ( or whatever its called) ... trackman of course showed a pickup in numbers but he only made solid contact 1 of 3 at best ... with the first iron he was striking them in silence and then says " i may have to get you to make me a retro set of these"... Why on earth would anyone play an iron that they hit that much worse? for the number on the sole?

 

would love to have seen them go loft for loft

 

I found it fascinating that the main ‘feel’ difference for Faldo was in the bounce with more of a radius on the modern clubs...although he didn’t say whether he thought it was better or worse! I agree that he seemed to get better strikes with the old club and almost seemed to forget that he was supposed to be marketing the modern clubs.

 

Apparently you guys were watching a different video than me. Faldo seemed to like all the clubs and he struck them all pretty well. I was surprised by his club head speed, particularly since his back swing was only about 3/4 and he didn't seem to be exerting himself all that much.

 

He commented that the modern clubs had more sole camber, which he seemed to like based on the fact that he plays the 900 Pro irons currently. His shot distance and spin was directly linked to the loft. The total distance between old and new was about 20 yards, which was attributed mostly to the loft. Pretty much exactly what one would expect.

 

What gets forgotten with modern lofts is lateral dispersion. When a modern 8-Iron has the same loft as an old-fashioned 6-iron, the dispersion with the modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as the old 6. I know it’s all relative and with modern courses typically being longer and wider it makes absolutely no difference as long as gapping between clubs is consistent.

[bladehunter]

Watching Faldo hit his old blade 7-Iron against the new JPX 919 range is interesting...especially his comments about loft:

 

 

 

great post !! great video! Notice how Faldo loved the initial older MP blade right off and he fought for solid contact on the new JPX forged ( or whatever its called) ... trackman of course showed a pickup in numbers but he only made solid contact 1 of 3 at best ... with the first iron he was striking them in silence and then says " i may have to get you to make me a retro set of these"... Why on earth would anyone play an iron that they hit that much worse? for the number on the sole?

 

would love to have seen them go loft for loft

 

I found it fascinating that the main ‘feel’ difference for Faldo was in the bounce with more of a radius on the modern clubs...although he didn’t say whether he thought it was better or worse! I agree that he seemed to get better strikes with the old club and almost seemed to forget that he was supposed to be marketing the modern clubs.

 

Apparently you guys were watching a different video than me. Faldo seemed to like all the clubs and he struck them all pretty well. I was surprised by his club head speed, particularly since his back swing was only about 3/4 and he didn't seem to be exerting himself all that much.

 

He commented that the modern clubs had more sole camber, which he seemed to like based on the fact that he plays the 900 Pro irons currently. His shot distance and spin was directly linked to the loft. The total distance between old and new was about 20 yards, which was attributed mostly to the loft. Pretty much exactly what one would expect.

 

so you agree? loft for loft they seem to be the same .

[Oldplayer]

As I read through this whole thread looks like the majority are together. Seems consistent as the players speed goes down, the need for distance heads increases.

 

Combo sets and where the break sits in the set is dependent on the player.

Good observation and fair comment. When you look at it that way it is a logical way to go and distance irons can be a good choice for some.

[Nessism]

so you agree? loft for loft they seem to be the same .

 

Loft for loft pretty much all irons are similar. Length of shaft is a small factor and the face spring effect is also. Spin with some heads too. What I don't agree about is that spring face irons lead to bif distance variation issues.

[pinestreetgolf]

Common thread in reading here is low speed players are a fan of the hot irons.

 

That's alll good. But why so much misinfo out there regarding their benefit for all players ?

 

I posted this on another thread a couple weeks ago. I tried out a senior playing partners 790 7 iron on the range. He actually asked me to hit it.citing how much distance he'd picked up over his mizuno set. I forget now the exact carry. But it was something like 212 twice ( just over the 210 marker) and then 3rd ball 221 off a tee. My stock 7 iron is 170. Rediculous Jump in Distance. How would that benefit me ? How many wedges would I need ? 8? I'm not even close to the longest guy here. Nor in my normal playing circles. I personally am glad some get the benefit of this tech. I just don't see a use for it at all.

 

You need to get on tour, as i don't think Dustin Johnson hits the P790 7 iron to that much carry, saw a couple of pro's with 92-95mph 7 iron speed carry them 185-190 though, so you must be smashing that 7 iron more than 100mph!

 

Nah. I deloft quite a bit although speed on that teed up one was probably humming along pretty good. I'm pretty fast but that wasn't my point. My point was the huge jump over my 170 yard 7 iron of traditional make and spec.

 

I'd bet dj can hit his blade 7 iron over 200 if he wants to. And besides. They don't give any points or deduct any for speed. Loll

 

That's like saying they don't give or deduct points in basketball for speed. Well, yeah, that's true. But it sure helps to be fast to be good. Same in golf.

 

This thread happens once every two weeks. A good iron swing is a good iron swing. Both sides push myths.

 

Blade guys: There are no "hot spots" where distance irons suddenly fly further on the same strike. It literally doesn't exist. Its made up. Mr. Wishon wrote an article about it. Its physically impossible. The face isn't "springier" in certain spots.

 

Shovel guys: There are tiny things that make your irons go farther (face, shaft) but mainly its a loft trick. Your 9 is their 8, and you are not actually much longer.

 

The bottom line is that this isn't a driver. There's just not much space to do much with. Basically, the decision is this:

 

Is it worth losing some small amount of heel-toe forgiveness to gain either (or both) 1. a prettier head to look at or 2. some small amount of workability. That it. That's the choice. If you can find a forgiving club you like to look at then use it and stop looking (*cough* J40 DPC *cough*). If I was buying new irons, I'd try:

 

Ping G25 (Extreme one side)

B-stone j40 DPC (balanced)

Razr X Blades (Extreme Other Side)

 

All three are really cheap on eBay and, IMO, represent the three classes of iron pretty well. A good iron strike is weight left, at speed, neutral path, neutral face. No company can fake that and everyone here yelling past each other doesn't change it, mainly because most of it is nonsense. An iron is an iron, for the most part. How it looks at address matters and how much forgiveness you want versus those looks matters (offset, topline, etc). The rest is noise.

[easyyy]

As I read through this whole thread looks like the majority are together. Seems consistent as the players speed goes down, the need for distance heads increases.

 

Combo sets and where the break sits in the set is dependent on the player.

Good observation and fair comment. When you look at it that way it is a logical way to go and distance irons can be a good choice for some.

 

It is dependent on the player. I used to use a 3 iron, kicked it out and recently kicked out the 4 iron for a utility iron. Soon the 5 and then the 6. I learn a lot playing with my wife. VERY slow speed so she doesn't hit a 6 iron well, Prefers a hybrid.

 

The issue for me was I tried to play the set all the way through. 4-pw. That is where things get dicey. 7-pw I would rather a baldish head over the large soled and hot heads of the speed irons. Even when they tone them down the bibber chassis has not proved to be the optimal option for me.

 

Me not you. Everyone is different. JMHJO :)

[easyyy]

What gets forgotten with modern lofts is lateral dispersion. When a modern 8-Iron has the same loft as an old-fashioned 6-iron, the dispersion with the modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as the old 6. I know it’s all relative and with modern courses typically being longer and wider it makes absolutely no difference as long as gapping between clubs is consistent.

 

If that is true and I haven't thought through it... Why have modern lofts? All you do my playing modern lofts if put a hole in the bottom of the bag where you will need to add a wedge.

[mahonie]

What gets forgotten with modern lofts is lateral dispersion. When a modern 8-Iron has the same loft as an old-fashioned 6-iron, the dispersion with the modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as the old 6. I know it’s all relative and with modern courses typically being longer and wider it makes absolutely no difference as long as gapping between clubs is consistent.

 

If that is true and I haven't thought through it... Why have modern lofts? All you do my playing modern lofts if put a hole in the bottom of the bag where you will need to add a wedge.

 

It’s all about the D-Plane (I think)...Crossfield has done a couple of videos on D-Plane which I don’t profess to fully understand but recognise that the dynamic loft on a club will have the same impact on the ball flight regardless of whether it’s badged as a 6-iron or an 8-iron including dispersion left and right.

 

You’re right that all that happens is that you need to add a wedge or even two to the bottom of the bag. It should be remembered that the lob wedge is a very modern invention and 56* was the most loft that anyone needed until a few years ago.

 

The reason for modern lofts is to create more saleable product. My first full set matched from top to bottom and went from driver to sand wedge (12 clubs leaving space for a driving iron and putter), my next set went 2 iron-SW (10 clubs) and I had to buy some woods separately. Instead of just buying a set of clubs that you would replace every 5 years or so, now you have separate markets for drivers, fairways, driving irons, hybrids, irons, wedges and putters all encouraging us to buy the next best thing on an annual basis. If a manufacturer could actually market a matched set of 13 clubs (with proper gapping as we used to have) + putter, I think they would make a killing if they kept the price to a reasonable level.