Rocco and Alcohol

[fore_life]

I term I've never understood is "functioning alcoholic." Seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

You’d be surprised how many are functioning, I think everyone has this assumption that alcoholism shows itself in the form of a sloppy fall down drunk etc, but not always the case.

 

As far as Rocco, do you guys remember him on Feherety live? He gave me the vibe that he was in trouble then.

[straightshot7]

I term I've never understood is "functioning alcoholic." Seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

You'd be surprised how many are functioning, I think everyone has this assumption that alcoholism shows itself in the form of a sloppy fall down drunk etc, but not always the case.

 

As far as Rocco, do you guys remember him on Feherety live? He gave me the vibe that he was in trouble then.

 

Yeah, there are probably 10 "functioning" alcoholics that the average person wouldn't suspect is an alcoholic for every 1 alcoholic that shows noticeable problems (to strangers).

 

It depends exactly how you define "alcoholic" but there are countless "successful" people who drink daily but learn to control it enough to where it doesn't totally prevent them from functioning.

 

My algebra teacher in the 10th grade used to put vodka in his coffee every morning. Was he the healthiest guy around? No, but he functioned. He could have a conversation and do his job and most people didn't know the difference.

 

I know another business man who's one of the wealthiest guys in a large county and he drinks every day, often to excess. But every morning he's back at work. Maybe a little hungover but still functioning.

 

There are countless people like this. They are functioning but probably only at 70% of their max capacity. They'll go through periods where they might quit for a month or two but then they're back at it. Alcohol probably keeps them from reaching their full potential but they are still able to accomplish things and not totally fall apart. They've learned to manage their alcoholism. It's sad but true.

 

It surprised me to hear that Rocco struggled with drinking. He always seemed to be "high on life" and too straight-laced to drink heavily. I pegged him as the kind of guy who wakes up at 4:30 AM and never does anything "bad". But I guess no one is above alcoholism and I can imagine that drinking helped his back pain and also eased his nerves because he is a high strung, active minded person.

[Big Cat 3]

I remember a story from my buddies grandparents down in palm desert that they saw Arnold Palmer at the bar after a round and he was sloppy drunk and being flirty with the ladies. This must have been around 1998. I remember thinking at the time that was funny as hell, but now thinking back it's kind of sad.

 

I remember Haney in his book saying that the club pro persona was to teach all day and hit the club bar in the late afternoon for a few drinks. He did that for a long time I guess and finally one day said he was tired of waking up hungover. Cold turkey, just like that.

 

I think golf being so cerebral lends itself to finding the desire to get out of your headspace and booze is so convenient.

Arnie was a renowned sexual predator ... that made his poor wife miserable and pissed off a lot of married men when he would brazenly hit on their wives. Not so hidden secret.

 

Assholish thing to say. “ predator” incinuates a lot of vile things.

hound is too archaic this day and protective age

[Big Cat 3]

I’d bet more fell in arnies lap than he could shake a stick at. No need to “be a predator”. I’ve heard the stories of him being a player.

Sam used to joke that Mr. Palmer’s rejects from all of the states that they Played in could make up a Miss/Mrs. America pageant with one more beautiful than the last, lolol.

 

Sam used to have a Hollywood starlet on his arm at Bing’s annual clam bake so it’s not like he was landing dog meat?, lol

 

Have a nice weekend Frosty?

RP

Arnie and Sam were married ... right lol Lot a stories out there about those two and their hustling

But hey the wives didn’t care supposedly so why not

[Big Cat 3]

I remember a story from my buddies grandparents down in palm desert that they saw Arnold Palmer at the bar after a round and he was sloppy drunk and being flirty with the ladies. This must have been around 1998.

Excuse me, and nothing against your Bud or his Grandparents, but I’m calling bullsh**!! First, and I had my first drink with Mr. Palmer in the early 90’s, 1991-92, I don’t remember exactly, and through the decades up to his passing, and we spoke 5 days prior as we were in the same hospital(Shadyside Hospital, Pgh, PA), from my club’s men’s grille, to Bay Hill to his home in Ligonier, PA, and I never ever, and there were many situations where he was surrounded by Buds and in the environment where if getting drunk was gonna happen, the table was set, and never, not once did I see him drunk, much less “sloppy,” LMFAO ???

Heavy drinking is a young mans game ... if you do not slow down you don’t last long. You don’t need a doctor’s advice to figure that out.

NFW!!!

 

As an aside, Mr. Palmer was diagnosed with prostate cancer in 1997(My father was his surgeon), and while I’m not getting into his medical history, suffice to say that he wasn’t back in the saddle till 2000-2001.

 

All that aside, I have never ever in my life met someone who was more cognizant and aware of their public persona, image and reputation than Mr. Palmer. He knew that for many people, especially men, He WAS golf, and I can’t count the times that he’d approach someone who was “sloppy,” loud or getting obnoxious and privately had a word with them and they either STFU or pipedTF down. I was in the shower at my club after a charity event and he had approached a club MEMBER, at another table, who was “sloppy” and dropping “f” bombs.

 

Mr. Palmer didn’t care where it was, when it was or who was around, and we had two Fortune 20 CEOs sittin at the next table when he approached the member at my club.

 

Plus, they’re talkin about Mr. Palmer in his late 60’s getting “sloppy,” and doing it after a round???

 

Bro, you can tell em some arsehole on your golf forum said that they’re full of s***?

 

I am in no way am saying anything against you or your Bud, and yea, on another point, I’m very familiar with his history with the Ladies, and no, he wasn’t remotely anything near a “predator,” and Sam and Pete told me first hand post tourney stories, and Sam was in awe of Mr. Palmer cuz back in the day, he didn’t have to open his mouth, much less try to “game” or “prey” on some Lady, as just his appearance was enough to turn heads and the more brazen(and beautiful) would approach him. His biggest come on was to send a Lady a drink.

 

For all that has been said about Arnold Palmer, I think that his greatest rival said it best, when in 2012 at Mr. Palmer’s Congressional Gold Medal Ceremony, Jack stated, “Arnold may have won four green jackets but he never lost his blue collar.”

 

Nope, if Rocco is “Everyman,” Arnold Palmer was THE Man?!!

 

So let’s reel it in a tad Gents??

 

When we start using words like “sloppy drunk” and “predator” to describe Arnold Friggin Palmer, well, it’s time for some of that self reflection bulls*** that my shrink is always chirpin about?

 

Cheers?

RP

[bodhi555]

I'm fairly certain that by certain metrics I would count as a functioning alcoholic - whilst I don't get drunk very often I will normally have a beer or 2 after work, often stopping off on the way home from work for what we call in the UK a "Drinkers Pint", so just me, a beer and Twitter/WRX - in fact I'm away with work at the moment and am sitting here in the hotel bar on my own with a pint. If I'm playing I'll usually get down to the club 20 mins early and have a beer.

 

I do suffer really badly with anxiety however, and find a beer will calm me down, but if pot was legal in the UK I could quit beer tomorrow - sadly the typical UK Club isn't somewhere you can readily spark a j and get toking.

 

Shame, as it does noticeably improve my game.

 

Such an easy trap to fall into however, especially if like me you have an addictive personality and a mental illness that makes it difficult to relax.

I've dealt with anxiety to some degree in sobriety, but lately it's mutated into debilitating panic attacks. Just started a common medication, so fingers crossed, I hope it works. I cannot imagine dying feeling any worse than these episodes have felt the past 3 weeks.

 

Sorry to heae you are still struggling - mine has calmed down massively now but some says are still a struggle - I've for some reason decided that working in Pre Sales is a great idea, so before presentations can be a struggle. I was put on medication about 10 years ago (Fluxotine) which worked initially but soon started driving me crazy (couldn't sleep, felt like I'd had something far more illegal), so just stuck to self medicating with pot and booze. Probably not ideal, but works for me.

 

Just remember you aren't alone, finding someone to talk it through with is the best medicine.

[Gautama]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

[Steele47]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinr.../alcoholism.cfm

 

 

 

You and I are on the same page. Calling it a disease equates in a way to 'victimhood' which equates to 'out of my control' so therefore I bear little or no responsibility. And yes, it does ruffle feathers. Those who back the 'disease model' as you put it are quite clingy to the idea.

[Swisstrader98]

I term I've never understood is "functioning alcoholic." Seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

Me either. Until I’ve see more than my fair share of alcoholics do exactly that, meaning function perfectly fine at day jobs or parenting or whatever and then hitting the bottle hard at night and then cycle starts all over again next day.

[straightshot7]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinr.../alcoholism.cfm

 

 

 

You and I are on the same page. Calling it a disease equates in a way to 'victimhood' which equates to 'out of my control' so therefore I bear little or no responsibility. And yes, it does ruffle feathers. Those who back the 'disease model' as you put it are quite clingy to the idea.

 

A disease by definition does not mean there is no element of choice involved in contributing to it.

 

Do you question whether type two Diabetes is a disease or lung cancer (caused by smoking) is a disease?

 

Calling it a disease does not remove responsibility. People who subscribe to that still choose to avoid drinking. If anything, labeling it a disease elevates its power in their mind so they are more motivated to not contribute to it.

 

I don't disagree that choice is a big factor. But I disagree that because you call it disease that that means choice is no longer a factor. It doesn't.

[Gautama]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinr.../alcoholism.cfm

 

 

 

You and I are on the same page. Calling it a disease equates in a way to 'victimhood' which equates to 'out of my control' so therefore I bear little or no responsibility. And yes, it does ruffle feathers. Those who back the 'disease model' as you put it are quite clingy to the idea.

 

A disease by definition does not mean there is no element of choice involved in contributing to it.

 

Do you question whether type two Diabetes is a disease or lung cancer (caused by smoking) is a disease?

 

Calling it a disease does not remove responsibility. People who subscribe to that still choose to avoid drinking. If anything, labeling it a disease elevates its power in their mind so they are more motivated to not contribute to it.

 

I don't disagree that choice is a big factor. But I disagree that because you call it disease that that means choice is no longer a factor. It doesn't.

 

You're conflating the behavior with the resultant damage to the body. Smoking is not a disease, but lung cancer is. Eating badly is not a disease, but type 2 diabetes is. Alcohol abuse is not a disease, but cirrhosis is, etc.

[Konklifer]

The non-alcoholic will never understand, therefore, no speculation or debate here. My own 12 years of sobriety affords nothing, it is just a number and no guarantee- I am in no way cured. What is important now, is for someone following this topic to understand that there is hope and a way out of the prison of addiction. The key to unlock it is on the inside, you just have to ask how to find it.

 

This right here is the heart of the matter. If you haven't dealt with addiction, you can't possibly question another who has or say you would have taken a different path.

[straightshot7]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinr.../alcoholism.cfm

 

 

 

You and I are on the same page. Calling it a disease equates in a way to 'victimhood' which equates to 'out of my control' so therefore I bear little or no responsibility. And yes, it does ruffle feathers. Those who back the 'disease model' as you put it are quite clingy to the idea.

 

A disease by definition does not mean there is no element of choice involved in contributing to it.

 

Do you question whether type two Diabetes is a disease or lung cancer (caused by smoking) is a disease?

 

Calling it a disease does not remove responsibility. People who subscribe to that still choose to avoid drinking. If anything, labeling it a disease elevates its power in their mind so they are more motivated to not contribute to it.

 

I don't disagree that choice is a big factor. But I disagree that because you call it disease that that means choice is no longer a factor. It doesn't.

 

You're conflating the behavior with the resultant damage to the body. Smoking is not a disease, but lung cancer is. Eating badly is not a disease, but type 2 diabetes is. Alcohol abuse is not a disease, but cirrhosis is, etc.

 

"Alcoholism: A chronic disease characterized by uncontrolled drinking and preoccupation with alcohol." Mayo Clinic

 

Nothing you said indicates that alcoholism is not a disease.

 

"Disease: a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms" -Merriam-Webster

 

Nothing in the definition of disease excludes an element of behavior.

[Gautama]

Well by that definition, all negative behavior could be classed as a disease...that's really not an effective argument is it.

 

Anyway, like I said, obviously many people, including the AMA, embrace the disease model, and obviously with good intentions. But there is a very large and growing group of experts that do not, and share the belief that it has backfired, horribly. And no one is saying it's easy to quit or feeling anything other than compassion...there's simply awareness that there's no real science behind the disease theory, and it's not actually helping people to get better.

 

Lots of peer reviewed literature on the subject if you'd care to search, but here's a nice pop media summary of the counterpoint

https://nypost.com/2015/07/12/addiction-is-not-a-disease-and-were-treating-drug-and-alcohol-addicts-wrong/

[A.Princey]

Is chemical dependency a choice? Choice gets you there initially, but if you'd see the seizures and DT's at a detox/treatment facility you'd absolutely believe it's a disease in the end stages. It completely triggers dopamine and hijacks normal brain function into needing that chemical to survive. Food, sex, and all other basic instincts completely take a back seat to the addiction as it becomes a necessity and priority number 1 of *survival* in an addict's mind.

 

Mental illness is hard to understand for some people, and because there's no smoking gun or malignant insurgence into the brain that one can point a finger at(like with physical ailments), they cannot reconcile with that idea. Chemical dependency is very much a disease and belongs in the same discussion as other brain traumas. The other thing the general population doesn't understand is how brain function is forever changed in an alcoholic/addict to the point that even the slightest relapse will instantly re-trigger every dependency from the last stages of a previous detox. A completely separate highway of neuro-transmission is carved into an addicts brain that is forever susceptible to any future chemical uptake, and is why people with decades of sobriety that choose to use again become almost instantly addicted and dependent again upon first usage.

[Nixhex524]

For the guy who called out Arnie:

 

You were not there and you don’t know.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who claimed : “Other than your last statement, so wrong in so many ways.”

 

I disagree. Other than those chemically affected in the womb or as a result of medical treatment - the choice to abuse drugs or alcohol beyond one's limit is entirely the in the hands of the individual. In other words, and staying on topic, no one except Rocco put the booze into his body.

Addiction is the inability to stop.

 

Please help me to understand how the booze entered his body if it wasn’t by his own hands.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Rocco drinks due to a high percentage of others in the same town who are drunks.”

 

That’s like a school kid after failing a test, “but everyone else did too” and that somehow makes it okay.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Golf is so cerebral” that it lends itself to the heavy consumption of alcohol.

 

That’s just foolish.

 

Lots of truth here, seems people like to make excuses or justify the poor life decisions others make. Just because some wish to hold the individual accountable for their actions or addictions doesn't mean we don't have compassion for them. I'm glad Rocco is in a better place, hopefully he stays away from the booze and I wish him nothing but the best.

 

 

I have compassion for those people that have the courage to stand up, admit they have a problem and face it with a solution. Now, I fully understand that solution might take months or even years. But for those who don't try at all and make excuse after excuse - you alone are choosing your destiny. Just don't get into a car with your habit behind the wheel and an endless bag of excuses in the passenger seat when my friends and family are on the same roads.

 

What is that solution? Please, tell us. Someone very close to me could use the answer right about now. There are a lot of us affected by it, so we could really use your wisdom on this one.

[straightshot7]

Well by that definition, all negative behavior could be classed as a disease...that's really not an effective argument is it.

 

Anyway, like I said, obviously many people, including the AMA, embrace the disease model, and obviously with good intentions. But there is a very large and growing group of experts that do not, and share the belief that it has backfired, horribly. And no one is saying it's easy to quit or feeling anything other than compassion...there's simply awareness that there's no real science behind the disease theory, and it's not actually helping people to get better.

 

Lots of peer reviewed literature on the subject if you'd care to search, but here's a nice pop media summary of the counterpoint

https://nypost.com/2...-addicts-wrong/

 

You mention peer reviewed literature and you post a New York Post article? Are you being serious? The "least-credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it 'not credible' than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible)." Pace Poll Survey Research Study

 

No, not "all negative behavior could be classed as a disease" because not all negative behavior results in ongoing physical symptoms and signs that eventually kill you.

 

I am not even attached to the "disease" model. I don't particularly think it matters whether you consider it a disease or not. I agree that personal choice is the most important factor. I was only pointing out that an element of behavior or choice is not mutually exclusive from disease. That is a plain fact.

[Steele47]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not. I know I have achieved sobriety not buying into it being a disease as it gives me a better foothold in dealing with my addiction. It makes me take responsibility for my actions. If others wish to perceive it as a disease that's fine.

 

I think the NY Times might rival the Post though in the 'least credible' dept though. But that too might be a matter of personal/individual perception like the disease vs. not disease debate.

[games]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not.

 

I agree. I don't disparage people who embrace the disease label. Nor do I rip on people who say "Just pick yourself up and don't drink."

Both sides have a grain of truth in their statements.

 

I have a niece with food allergies (lots of them). That's how I look at alcohol. It affects me more adversely than it does other people, so I just need to deal with that.

[Gautama]

 

Lots of peer reviewed literature on the subject if you'd care to search, but here's a nice pop media summary of the counterpoint

https://nypost.com/2...-addicts-wrong/

 

You mention peer reviewed literature and you post a New York Post article? Are you being serious?

 

Oh boy. I literally said "lots of peer reviewed literature, but here is a pop media piece..." Really, if you're not going to read, not much point jnt trying to communicate. Anyway, this is a golf forum, not an addiction resource. You keep believing what you want, certainly plenty of people do, while a huge number of experts do not. I'd encourage anyone to take the time to learn more about both legitimized points of view on this, rather than just skimming and reflexively reacting.

 

In the end, we don't need to resolve this. And if you ever have to deal with addiction as I have, perhaps it will serve you well to expect help to come along from outside yourself. I found the opposite to be true.

[Gautama]

Is chemical dependency a choice? Choice gets you there initially, but if you'd see the seizures and DT's at a detox/treatment facility you'd absolutely believe it's a disease in the end stages.

 

100% agree with you, and have personal experience. This is that forced distinction between physical dependence and the broader pattern of behavior that is now considered "addiction."

 

Whether it's as minor as the nagging headaches from missing the morning coffee, or the whole body inferno of halting opiates, yes, physical dependence is a medical concern with an acute phase of withdrawal. And yes, doctors can even help you. No one disputes that. But, the decision to use again weeks, months, years down the road is not, that's just bad decision making, and why this is so important to understand, especially for someone who wants to actually break that cycle.

[bladehunter]

On a happier note, I get to do a belated Christmas with the inlaws today, yay!!! No golf related gifts will be exchanged or received, and the awkwardness will be palpable.

 

I’ll say a prayer for you.

 

Christmas 2 months late with people you don’t like. That’s as fake as fake gets. And I’ve been there brother. So I know.

[bladehunter]

The non-alcoholic will never understand, therefore, no speculation or debate here. My own 12 years of sobriety affords nothing, it is just a number and no guarantee- I am in no way cured. What is important now, is for someone following this topic to understand that there is hope and a way out of the prison of addiction. The key to unlock it is on the inside, you just have to ask how to find it.

 

This right here is the heart of the matter. If you haven't dealt with addiction, you can't possibly question another who has or say you would have taken a different path.

 

I’ll agree with this. If dealing with addiction includes those on the receiving end of the addicteds actions? I’ve grown up in it , got away from it. Then dealt with it with siblings where one was an employee I eventually had to fire ( terribly long sad story ) and again with another sibling and his girlfriend where it eventually led to me adopting my then 3 year old now 10 year old nephew. My point is. I can tell you with more truth and fact the tendencies and the happenings of the addicts , than the addicts I’ve dealt with can or will tell you themselves.

[Shilgy]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not.

 

I agree. I don't disparage people who embrace the disease label. Nor do I rip on people who say "Just pick yourself up and don't drink."

Both sides have a grain of truth in their statements.

 

I have a niece with food allergies (lots of them). That's how I look at alcohol. It affects me more adversely than it does other people, so I just need to deal with that.

That's a good one there Games. It's the analogy I used 30 years ago. I'm allergic to nuts. And used that analogy to discontinue the use of alcohol. After 30 years could I drink socially? I have no desire to find out as the downside consequences would be too dire.

[games]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not.

 

I agree. I don't disparage people who embrace the disease label. Nor do I rip on people who say "Just pick yourself up and don't drink."

Both sides have a grain of truth in their statements.

 

I have a niece with food allergies (lots of them). That's how I look at alcohol. It affects me more adversely than it does other people, so I just need to deal with that.

That's a good one there Games. It's the analogy I used 30 years ago. I'm allergic to nuts. And used that analogy to discontinue the use of alcohol. After 30 years could I drink socially? I have no desire to find out as the downside consequences would be too dire.

 

Thank you, and thanks for sharing your story! I take comfort knowing my approach has some validity!

[nic19]

Always been a Rocco fan, and his coming forward with this just reinforces my opinion.

 

I've been down about every dark alley a man can go down in my life, but have been clean and happy for over fifteen years. Because I decided to be.

 

And I know many disagree, but to me, the whole "disease model" of addiction is false, and does those suffering from it a great disservice. I'm not alone in that, simply Google it and you'll find what a controversial concept it really is, with almost no actual scientific basis. The intention of the movement was good, but by absolving the addict of any personal causal role in the matter, or worse telling them that it is "beyond their control," we remove the one and only "cure"...the personal decision to stop. Disease does not work that way...does one suffering from cancer have the ability to wake up one day and decide to stop having it? Or on the flipside, can even the most skilled surgeon excise the addiction? Can one prescribe a drug to treat it?

 

That idea ruffles feathers, but if you think about it, it's actually incredibly empowering, and just so important to understand.

 

"Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual."

 

https://www.baldwinr.../alcoholism.cfm

 

 

 

You and I are on the same page. Calling it a disease equates in a way to 'victimhood' which equates to 'out of my control' so therefore I bear little or no responsibility. And yes, it does ruffle feathers. Those who back the 'disease model' as you put it are quite clingy to the idea.

I think of my addiction as a mental health issue that I suffer from and need to treat. There are many doctors who call addiction a disease as follows a model. I watched a few very interesting talk from a leading doctor on youtube about it. But then we get into a debate. All I know is Im an addict and need to stay clean a day at a time.

[Shilgy]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not.

 

I agree. I don't disparage people who embrace the disease label. Nor do I rip on people who say "Just pick yourself up and don't drink."

Both sides have a grain of truth in their statements.

 

I have a niece with food allergies (lots of them). That's how I look at alcohol. It affects me more adversely than it does other people, so I just need to deal with that.

That's a good one there Games. It's the analogy I used 30 years ago. I'm allergic to nuts. And used that analogy to discontinue the use of alcohol. After 30 years could I drink socially? I have no desire to find out as the downside consequences would be too dire.

 

Thank you, and thanks for sharing your story! I take comfort knowing my approach has some validity!

Whatever works... In this case whatever gets you through the day without a drink. At this point it's really not an issue to me. You could call it in remission.

The whole disease/not a disease is a non-issue in my book. Wiser folks than I am have hashed that out without agreement. Bottom line some have a brain that is triggered by alcohol or other drug use. If the use causes problems the user has a problem. Call it a problem or call it a disease it doesn't matter to me. But the idea that the user just needs to suck it up and not use, as of he's just weak minded, is not the way to get the issue solved.

[Gautama]

I just want to circle back and add that I knew when I posted my feelings on "alcoholism as disease" it had the potential to rankle, and almost didn't post it. This is a golf forum after all. And I want to make it clear, whatever belief you have on the matter, if it's working then I applaud you.

 

I just very genuinely believe, (and therefore I side with those experts who believe), that it's all gotten a little sideways, and to the detriment of people who are in the midst of it, trying to know what to do. If you've ever tried to break from a physical dependence when withdrawal feels like its going to literally tear you apart, you know how real "dependence" is. With resolve, and ideally even with some medical guidance, you can and will get through it. Fairly quickly.

 

But it's the "going back" piece, the DECISION to use again and completely relapse, that really defines addiction in the modern sense. Guys like Rocco, apparently, have the ability to regain control through a change in their own thinking. And I am of the opinion that's the only way to regain control. The pattern of abuse is a behavior, and the user is the only one who can change the course of it. It's a very important thing to realize if you're actually the one who's gotten yourself into the mess in my experience.

 

But again, I don't want to undermine anyone else's beliefs that may be working for them. Only to help anyone who's finding that model isn't getting them where they need to be by offering a very legitimate, and widely-held alternative perspective on it all.

 

Anyway, playing 72 holes next weekend, getting my mind back to golf, lol.

[tannyhoban]

I play with guys that rely on alcohol, cigarettes, pot, chew...etc. They need it to play, they cant play without it.

 

In my opinion, it should be illegal to use in sports. But the way I feel is this. If I win or beat them, they have to live with the fact that their crutch broke. I dont have to live with that reality after the round, so right after their "win" on the course ends, I win and they lose. And that constant losing will perpetuate the problem. I cant help people with problems they can fix immediately. I help the helpless, not the foolish.

 

Anyone that has beat addiction, has beat it because they wanted to, not because someone helped them do it. They might have been encouraged, but in the end the choice is theirs to get better.

 

There are better people than I to assist people with problems I cant imagine having.

 

My money and time goes to different causes.

 

You sound like a really fun guy to play with.

 

I AM! And I dont need alcohol to do it either!

 

There are those out there who are helpless over alcohol. AA was founded on that premise. Nice of you to help others. And you have choices as to whom your time and money goes to. But I think you should learn, helpless and foolish can sometimes look like the same thing.

[Shilgy]

I just want to circle back and add that I knew when I posted my feelings on "alcoholism as disease" it had the potential to rankle, and almost didn't post it. This is a golf forum after all. And I want to make it clear, whatever belief you have on the matter, if it's working then I applaud you.

 

I just very genuinely believe, (and therefore I side with those experts who believe), that it's all gotten a little sideways, and to the detriment of people who are in the midst of it, trying to know what to do. If you've ever tried to break from a physical dependence when withdrawal feels like its going to literally tear you apart, you know how real "dependence" is. With resolve, and ideally even with some medical guidance, you can and will get through it. Fairly quickly.

 

But it's the "going back" piece, the DECISION to use again and completely relapse, that really defines addiction in the modern sense. Guys like Rocco, apparently, have the ability to regain control through a change in their own thinking. And I am of the opinion that's the only way to regain control. The pattern of abuse is a behavior, and the user is the only one who can change the course of it. It's a very important thing to realize if you're actually the one who's gotten yourself into the mess in my experience.

 

But again, I don't want to undermine anyone else's beliefs that may be working for them. Only to help anyone who's finding that model isn't getting them where they need to be by offering a very legitimate, and widely-held alternative perspective on it all.

 

Anyway, playing 72 holes next weekend, getting my mind back to golf, lol.

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?