Rocco and Alcohol

[Ferguson]

For the guy who called out Arnie:

 

You were not there and you don’t know.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who claimed : “Other than your last statement, so wrong in so many ways.”

 

I disagree. Other than those chemically affected in the womb or as a result of medical treatment - the choice to abuse drugs or alcohol beyond one's limit is entirely the in the hands of the individual. In other words, and staying on topic, no one except Rocco put the booze into his body.

Addiction is the inability to stop.

 

Please help me to understand how the booze entered his body if it wasn’t by his own hands.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Rocco drinks due to a high percentage of others in the same town who are drunks.”

 

That’s like a school kid after failing a test, “but everyone else did too” and that somehow makes it okay.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Golf is so cerebral” that it lends itself to the heavy consumption of alcohol.

 

That’s just foolish.

 

Lots of truth here, seems people like to make excuses or justify the poor life decisions others make. Just because some wish to hold the individual accountable for their actions or addictions doesn't mean we don't have compassion for them. I'm glad Rocco is in a better place, hopefully he stays away from the booze and I wish him nothing but the best.

 

 

I have compassion for those people that have the courage to stand up, admit they have a problem and face it with a solution. Now, I fully understand that solution might take months or even years. But for those who don't try at all and make excuse after excuse - you alone are choosing your destiny. Just don't get into a car with your habit behind the wheel and an endless bag of excuses in the passenger seat when my friends and family are on the same roads.

 

What is that solution? Please, tell us. Someone very close to me could use the answer right about now. There are a lot of us affected by it, so we could really use your wisdom on this one.

 

 

I've stated this prior. Mrs. Ferguson is a licensed, clinical psychologist. I am not. However, she has shared literally hundreds of stories with me over the years about all sorts of addiction. She believes all addicts have one thing in common - compulsive behavior. She has had a lot of success with cognitive behavior therapy. I think based on what she believes that therapy is excellent place to start.

 

Kicking any addiction takes a combination of therapy.

[Gautama]

 

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?

 

No, I've not said some people aren't predisposed to addictive behaviors. Nothing of the sort. In fact, people are predisposed to many destructive behaviors, that doesn't make them diseased. That said, getting better is a decision. Period.

 

But you're not going to actually read, so I'm done trying.

 

Curious, have you experienced addiction?

[bscinstnct]

 

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?

 

No, I've not said some people aren't predisposed to addictive behaviors. Nothing of the sort. In fact, people are predisposed to many destructive behaviors, that doesn't make them diseased. That said, getting better is a decision. Period.

 

But you're not going to actually read, so I'm done trying.

 

Curious, have you experienced addiction?

 

Perhaps getting better is a decision.

 

Bur, it seems that the decision is far more difficult for some than for others based on a number of mental and physical and life conditions/issues that create higher degrees of dependency for one person than another.

 

I know a guy who drank himself to death at 56. Good looking guy, everybody liked him, life could have been so great for him. But the way alcohol combined with his mental health issues and life circumstances made the "choice" harder for him than some.

 

Was drinking himself to death a "choice"? Ultimately, yes. But, I think some great unescapable pain from his past (or perhaps a mental health condition that made him unable to escape it) combined with an avalanche of bad life events, made the "choice" impossible for him.

[wmblake2000]

Most of the guys in my golf circle do not drink or use other substances while they golf but a few do. One in particular cannot play close to his handicap unless he vapes THC oil or smokes pot. I don't know why since he's emphatic that pot isn't addictive but we know as soon as well smell skunk he's going to start playing better.

 

If Rocco turned to alcohol for pain relief then he probably did himself a favor rather than get hooked on Oxy, I know alcohol can do damage but I've seen too many of my friends kids turn to heroin after battling a Oxy / opiate addiction, nasty stuff.

 

 

I just don't understand why Rocco would turn to booze and not his friends or family.

I guess I will never know - I am not wired that way.

 

I’m sober 15 yrs. I drank alcoholicly right from the outset as a teen. My friends drank much more moderately. I never did but didn’t really recognize it was a problem until it was too late. Then it took me forever to get sober.

 

We humans are definitely are wired differently.

 

I sorta scanned the various comments about addiction - disease? choice? compulsive? etc. My short answer is 'all of the above.'

 

From my vantage point, the one thing I see about addicts is we've got a ton of inner discontent in our natures, for whatever reason. So, just deciding to quit is not so easy, because not only is the body habituated to the high, and the mind/psyche reliant on it for some hope of turning the intensity down, but the maps of how to 'be' different are not there. It's like knowing what a decent golf swing looks like and then seeing your own pitiful swing on video for the first time. You've got to build a new way forward that hasn't occurred to you...yet.

 

I'll just add one more thought. I am really glad I had/have all that intensity and profoundly glad to be sober. This combination of forces have moved me towards living in a way that I enjoy and respect... toward a more authentic realization of my own potential.

[Troutfly]

For the guy who called out Arnie:

 

You were not there and you don’t know.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who claimed : “Other than your last statement, so wrong in so many ways.”

 

I disagree. Other than those chemically affected in the womb or as a result of medical treatment - the choice to abuse drugs or alcohol beyond one's limit is entirely the in the hands of the individual. In other words, and staying on topic, no one except Rocco put the booze into his body.

Addiction is the inability to stop.

 

Please help me to understand how the booze entered his body if it wasn’t by his own hands.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Rocco drinks due to a high percentage of others in the same town who are drunks.”

 

That’s like a school kid after failing a test, “but everyone else did too” and that somehow makes it okay.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Golf is so cerebral” that it lends itself to the heavy consumption of alcohol.

 

That’s just foolish.

 

Lots of truth here, seems people like to make excuses or justify the poor life decisions others make. Just because some wish to hold the individual accountable for their actions or addictions doesn't mean we don't have compassion for them. I'm glad Rocco is in a better place, hopefully he stays away from the booze and I wish him nothing but the best.

 

 

I have compassion for those people that have the courage to stand up, admit they have a problem and face it with a solution. Now, I fully understand that solution might take months or even years. But for those who don't try at all and make excuse after excuse - you alone are choosing your destiny. Just don't get into a car with your habit behind the wheel and an endless bag of excuses in the passenger seat when my friends and family are on the same roads.

 

What is that solution? Please, tell us. Someone very close to me could use the answer right about now. There are a lot of us affected by it, so we could really use your wisdom on this one.

Again, no debate here- there are many ways one can achieve sobriety. To the addict, it's not a problem,or you and everyone else are the problem. This behavior has to stop-the problem is not the family's, it's the addicts. I was told I can do whatever I like as long as I'm willing to deal with the consequences. All I can do is share my experience, send me a PM with your contact info

[Nixhex524]

For the guy who called out Arnie:

 

You were not there and you don’t know.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who claimed : “Other than your last statement, so wrong in so many ways.”

 

I disagree. Other than those chemically affected in the womb or as a result of medical treatment - the choice to abuse drugs or alcohol beyond one's limit is entirely the in the hands of the individual. In other words, and staying on topic, no one except Rocco put the booze into his body.

Addiction is the inability to stop.

 

Please help me to understand how the booze entered his body if it wasn’t by his own hands.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Rocco drinks due to a high percentage of others in the same town who are drunks.”

 

That’s like a school kid after failing a test, “but everyone else did too” and that somehow makes it okay.

 

 

 

 

For the guy who said:

 

“Golf is so cerebral” that it lends itself to the heavy consumption of alcohol.

 

That’s just foolish.

 

Lots of truth here, seems people like to make excuses or justify the poor life decisions others make. Just because some wish to hold the individual accountable for their actions or addictions doesn't mean we don't have compassion for them. I'm glad Rocco is in a better place, hopefully he stays away from the booze and I wish him nothing but the best.

 

 

I have compassion for those people that have the courage to stand up, admit they have a problem and face it with a solution. Now, I fully understand that solution might take months or even years. But for those who don't try at all and make excuse after excuse - you alone are choosing your destiny. Just don't get into a car with your habit behind the wheel and an endless bag of excuses in the passenger seat when my friends and family are on the same roads.

 

What is that solution? Please, tell us. Someone very close to me could use the answer right about now. There are a lot of us affected by it, so we could really use your wisdom on this one.

 

 

I've stated this prior. Mrs. Ferguson is a licensed, clinical psychologist. I am not. However, she has shared literally hundreds of stories with me over the years about all sorts of addiction. She believes all addicts have one thing in common - compulsive behavior. She has had a lot of success with cognitive behavior therapy. I think based on what she believes that therapy is excellent place to start.

 

Kicking any addiction takes a combination of therapy.

No one ever "kicks the addiction". It doesnt just go away... whether you are meaning to or not, you and others here are acting like all addicts have to do is decide to give it up and they should be able to live a normal life again. Therapy is a good tool to have but it isnt going to make it go away... its frustrating AF to watch people speak this way about addiction acting like people who are struggling deserve it because they arent choosing to drop it, refusing to acknowledge what addiction actually is and what it does to people. You dont have to have sympathy but stop acting like you know what youre talking about.

[Forged4ever]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not. I know I have achieved sobriety not buying into it being a disease as it gives me a better foothold in dealing with my addiction. It makes me take responsibility for my actions. If others wish to perceive it as a disease that's fine.

 

I think the NY Times might rival the Post though in the 'least credible' dept though. But that too might be a matter of personal/individual perception like the disease vs. not disease debate.

Wait a sec!!!!

 

The post is my “bible,” and you’re telling me it’s bulls***???!?!?

 

This place has busted more bubbles than my Grandmother did when I took bubble baths as a kid, lolol

 

Regarding pain meds addiction/dependence bein a disease versus not, FOR ME, I agree with Steele??

 

My 14 orthopedic surgeries(11 knee, 2 shoulder & one maxilo-facial reconstruction) were “conditions,” and my three bouts of cancer are “diseases”

 

My addiction to pain meds??

 

Nah, that’s on ME!!

 

I didn’t need my shrink to clue me in on that, lolol

 

You wanna talk about the sweats, dry heaves(I had zero appetite) and ants? under my skin??

 

Boy, it sucked big time, lol

 

They wanted to do it with a gradual “draw down” and told me the time frame that it would take versus just cold turkey and that time frame and I went with the ?, lolol

 

Maddie sat there and held me like the 225lb. p**** that I was as I rocked back and forth all night~

 

God Bless You Seeetheart?

 

Nah, for me, I’m at my best when I’m cornered with one way out and even when I’m not, I’ve always taken it as “me against whatever/whomever” was in between where I was and where I wanted to be and I’ve always taken the straight ahead path, through the wall/man/obstacle in front of me.

 

However that wasn’t the worst yet to come as that was following my first cancer and I blew the s*** outa my receptors, so anything short of dilaudid/morphine and A LOT of it was like M&M’s to me.

 

So my second bout of “C” was on me, lolol

 

Now THAT really sucked?!!!

 

This third?

 

Everything seems to be in good working order and I’m below the normal pain med regime.

 

However for me, the only disease that I had was cancer.

 

So the Post is garbage, huh?????

 

Damn......

 

Stay well Brother and the very best to ya goin forward?

 

My Best,

Richard

[Shilgy]

 

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?

 

No, I've not said some people aren't predisposed to addictive behaviors. Nothing of the sort. In fact, people are predisposed to many destructive behaviors, that doesn't make them diseased. That said, getting better is a decision. Period.

 

But you're not going to actually read, so I'm done trying.

 

Curious, have you experienced addiction?

Clearly you didn't read all of the posts which would answer your last question. You could say getting better from most diseases is a choice. Doesn't make it not a disease.

It is hard to explain to those that have not experienced it. Anyone that thinks addiction is simply a choice is naive.

[wmblake2000]

There’s a lot of confusion around ‘disease’ vs ‘choice.’ I’ll use Richard v my story to illustrate. I drank alcoholically from the outset. Richard came to pain meds late in life due to a lot of factors but he wasn’t in the same boat as me. Our situations were fundamentally different.

 

But regardless, the process of getting sober is not one over which the idea of disease is a useful crutch. It takes an enormous amount of intention, self-disciple and gumption. People who think the ‘disease’ label somehow does away with this are just mistaken. Period.

 

However, often these are necessary but not sufficient. It requires a new brain chemistry and new map of how to be. There are plenty of discussions elsewhere about how learning a new swing happens (and plenty of debate there, too!). Changing your whole idea of how to live moment to moment as your body/psyche adapts to being sober is a whole different level.

 

The magnitude of change required and the need to often discover new ways of seeing everything is part of why this gets classified as a disease. The fact that I drank alcoholically right from the outset is the other - some are just predisposed to it more than others.

 

If you can get sober by being determined, great. Plenty of people do. But most have to go thru a kind of change in how they view everything to get and sustain sobriety.

 

My point is: there are more things on heaven and earth, heratio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies. (Hamlet) People who really have no clue should not mistake their limited perspective with the whole story.

[Forged4ever]

Lots of truth here, seems people like to make excuses or justify the poor life decisions others make. Just because some wish to hold the individual accountable for their actions or addictions doesn't mean we don't have compassion for them. I'm glad Rocco is in a better place, hopefully he stays away from the booze and I wish him nothing but the best.

 

 

I have compassion for those people that have the courage to stand up, admit they have a problem and face it with a solution. Now, I fully understand that solution might take months or even years. But for those who don't try at all and make excuse after excuse - you alone are choosing your destiny. Just don't get into a car with your habit behind the wheel and an endless bag of excuses in the passenger seat when my friends and family are on the same roads.

 

What is that solution? Please, tell us. Someone very close to me could use the answer right about now. There are a lot of us affected by it, so we could really use your wisdom on this one.

 

 

I've stated this prior. Mrs. Ferguson is a licensed, clinical psychologist. I am not. However, she has shared literally hundreds of stories with me over the years about all sorts of addiction. She believes all addicts have one thing in common - compulsive behavior. She has had a lot of success with cognitive behavior therapy. I think based on what she believes that therapy is excellent place to start.

 

Kicking any addiction takes a combination of therapy.

No one ever "kicks the addiction". It doesnt just go away... whether you are meaning to or not, you and others here are acting like all addicts have to do is decide to give it up and they should be able to live a normal life again. Therapy is a good tool to have but it isnt going to make it go away... its frustrating AF to watch people speak this way about addiction acting like people who are struggling deserve it because they arent choosing to drop it, refusing to acknowledge what addiction actually is and what it does to people. You dont have to have sympathy but stop acting like you know what youre talking about.

First, I couldn’t agree more with ya Brother, however as you know, we live in a very very judgemental REAL world, and in the VIRTUAL world, where a man doesn’t have to sit across from you or I and spout their bulls***, a keyboard, screen, fake username & avatar makes men outa mice?, lololol?

 

Secondly, WRX is no different than any other gathering of humans in that for probably 85-90%+, their tone of certainty faaaaaar exceeds their actual knowledge on the subject matter being discussed. This isn’t a real world/virtual world thing, it’s a species thing in general and a male thing in particular, lolol

 

As I’ve mentioned prior, my first 14 years were spent under my Grandmother’s roof and my core foundation, for better or worse, was built by her.

 

That being said, one of the earliest “lessons” learned and “trait” ingrained that I can remember was basically the acceptance understanding and belief that when looking at, critiquing and judging others, to ALWAYS factor in “But there by the grace of God god I,” prior to opening my mouth or committing to an action.

 

It’s been an amazing “tempering” force for me as my Mentors and the environments that I’ve run in, be it personally, socially, athletically or professionally, have not always been conducive to this type of thinking.

 

It didn’t matter whether I stood alone or had others on my side of the table~

 

But there by the grace of God go I....

 

One thing that I didn’t mean to infer is that I do not put Fergs in the group that I was referring to in my post.

 

He’s a good man and one of the best on this board, whether we agree or not??

 

Stay well Brother?

RP

[golfgirlrobin]

Is chemical dependency a choice? Choice gets you there initially, but if you'd see the seizures and DT's at a detox/treatment facility you'd absolutely believe it's a disease in the end stages. It completely triggers dopamine and hijacks normal brain function into needing that chemical to survive. Food, sex, and all other basic instincts completely take a back seat to the addiction as it becomes a necessity and priority number 1 of *survival* in an addict's mind.

 

Mental illness is hard to understand for some people, and because there's no smoking gun or malignant insurgence into the brain that one can point a finger at(like with physical ailments), they cannot reconcile with that idea. Chemical dependency is very much a disease and belongs in the same discussion as other brain traumas. The other thing the general population doesn't understand is how brain function is forever changed in an alcoholic/addict to the point that even the slightest relapse will instantly re-trigger every dependency from the last stages of a previous detox. A completely separate highway of neuro-transmission is carved into an addicts brain that is forever susceptible to any future chemical uptake, and is why people with decades of sobriety that choose to use again become almost instantly addicted and dependent again upon first usage.

 

My husband has been sober for 36 years and always says the key to his sobriety is understanding the changes in his brain due to his addiction. He understands that after all this time, he still doesn’t get a reset, his brain won’t allow him to be have a single glass of wine guy. It’s the reason addiction is controlled, not cured.

 

I wish Rocco well, but I wonder if his comment about wanting alcohol and not needing it isn’t a lack of acknowledgement of the problem that might come back to haunt him.

 

 

[Forged4ever]

I wish Rocco well, but I wonder if his comment about wanting alcohol and not needing it isn’t a lack of acknowledgement of the problem that might come back to haunt him.

Great catch Robin!!

 

I agree and I believe that it will and while I hope that it doesn’t cost him to learn this lesson, it may well have to cost him more, as you obviously know that for some to get to THAT point, well, it takes admitting to a lack of control, and for an individual, especially a successful male, this admission is like drinking vinegar, lol.

 

It’s very very hard to swallow!!

 

Have a great week?

Richard

[wmblake2000]

Is chemical dependency a choice? Choice gets you there initially, but if you'd see the seizures and DT's at a detox/treatment facility you'd absolutely believe it's a disease in the end stages. It completely triggers dopamine and hijacks normal brain function into needing that chemical to survive. Food, sex, and all other basic instincts completely take a back seat to the addiction as it becomes a necessity and priority number 1 of *survival* in an addict's mind.

 

Mental illness is hard to understand for some people, and because there's no smoking gun or malignant insurgence into the brain that one can point a finger at(like with physical ailments), they cannot reconcile with that idea. Chemical dependency is very much a disease and belongs in the same discussion as other brain traumas. The other thing the general population doesn't understand is how brain function is forever changed in an alcoholic/addict to the point that even the slightest relapse will instantly re-trigger every dependency from the last stages of a previous detox. A completely separate highway of neuro-transmission is carved into an addicts brain that is forever susceptible to any future chemical uptake, and is why people with decades of sobriety that choose to use again become almost instantly addicted and dependent again upon first usage.

 

My husband has been sober for 36 years and always says the key to his sobriety is understanding the changes in his brain due to his addiction. He understands that after all this time, he still doesn’t get a reset, his brain won’t allow him to be have a single glass of wine guy. It’s the reason addiction is controlled, not cured.

 

I wish Rocco well, but I wonder if his comment about wanting alcohol and not needing it isn’t a lack of acknowledgement of the problem that might come back to haunt him.

 

I’m with your husband - we were in Cape Town this fall and it looked so great to be outside with a glass of wine. Except I NEVER want to go back there and I am 100% sure 1 simple glass of wine would trigger misery for me.

 

But I also have had long periods where I had no conscious want or need to drink. One part of the battle was won. It wasn’t a daily fight.

 

What is daily is I seek to ‘increase my conscious contact with God as I understand It.’

[Gautama]

Hey Richard, 100% there with you on the opiate withdrawals, multiple times in my life. And hell yeah I knew I was getting hooked...every frigging time. And knew I had hell ahead of me to stop. Hell for everyone around me too, but that's another story.

 

Like I said, if anyone is offended by my posts I'm sincerely sorry, what works for you is yours to own and you don't need to defend it. And I'm certainly in my rights to share that for me, knowing I was ultimately the one in control (more like out of control), is what let me, more like forced me, to stop. And I was greatful for the research that supported that.

 

Here's an interesting article on the surprising numbers of alcoholics who are able to become moderate drinkers. Kind of a shallow overview, but you might find some food for thought in it, acknowledges both sides of the debate:

https://www.livescience.com/2065-controlled-drinking-controversial-alternative-aa.html

 

Really guys, this isn't opinion...the fact is, the assumptions about addiction and treatment are changing, and it's we addicts ourselves, and our poor families, that benefit from it. Not sure why it's such a divisive concept, but I'm going to let it go because I certainly didn't intend to upset anyone. Live and let live as my mother always said.

[bladehunter]

 

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?

 

No, I've not said some people aren't predisposed to addictive behaviors. Nothing of the sort. In fact, people are predisposed to many destructive behaviors, that doesn't make them diseased. That said, getting better is a decision. Period.

 

But you're not going to actually read, so I'm done trying.

 

Curious, have you experienced addiction?

 

I have to agree with this. I’ve had this very conversation while begging my brother ( both at once sometimes ) to go to an actual rehab place. Offering to pay for it and drive them there etc. finally one says “. Just stop. Until I decide to quit , rehab isn’t going to do a thing “. This is the one who later got sober cold turkey. Now the other one ..... i don’t know. He’s the weaker of the two no doubt. For him my mind is open to the idea that he can’t help it. But honestly its Hard to believe that. I truly don’t think he wants to . Not bad enough to do a single thing to help himself. He has a network of people who would pay for treatment , house him , feed him and employ him. And he takes none of it. That’s a choice. A sad one.

 

He’s the one who’s child I’m

Raising. He also robbed me 4 thanksgivings ago while I was on vacation. Took things from outside my business , totaling around $3500. I caught it on camera and later found some wheels etc in a pawn shop. I didn’t press charges because I simply couldn’t. He did a year inside just after that for larceny that wasn’t connected to my incident. Came out and went right back to drugs and drinking. I’ve cut all contact after that. It’s just too much to be around that anymore. I feel certain I’ll get the call one day to be a pallbearer at his funeral. What a terrible thought to have. But I can’t make him do anything. He has to chose.

 

Look. It’s a really tangled question. I’m not a teetotaler who thinks they can all just snap out of it. But it’s also illegal to kidnap them and tie them to a tree until they die or detox. Cause I’ve thought about doing it. That’s how far down the rabbit hole I’ve been. In the end it’s a choice. A hard or impossible one maybe. But a choice. Labeling it an incurable illness makes them a victim and that enables a person like my brother. His MO is to play the woe is me card. It’s not helpful to give him amo. If a person cannot make that choice what are the options ? I don’t disagree with anyone’s opinion that is genuine and based on experience. Just like mine maybe flawed. But it’s shaped by what I’ve seen first hand.

[A.Princey]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which methodology we subscribe to in getting sober, and some work better than others but the end goal is the same. I just want to live a long, happy and healthy life, free from active-addiction, and I wish the very same for all other people who have fought this battle. Stopping is the first hurdle, learning to live in the solution without being a POS human being is the struggle of staying stopped. My older brother is an example of someone who put the "plug in the jug" but lives a miserable life due to a poor method. He substitutes other bad behavior in place of alcohol and has become a bitter person for not dealing with the issue itself. Alcohol and drug use are but a symptom of more pressing issues in addictive thinking/behavior.

 

Best wishes to everyone, and feel free to message me any questions. I'm here for anyone that would like to discuss my experience further. AA and NA work for millions of people, the proof is undeniable.

[Steele47]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not. I know I have achieved sobriety not buying into it being a disease as it gives me a better foothold in dealing with my addiction. It makes me take responsibility for my actions. If others wish to perceive it as a disease that's fine.

 

I think the NY Times might rival the Post though in the 'least credible' dept though. But that too might be a matter of personal/individual perception like the disease vs. not disease debate.

Wait a sec!!!!

 

The post is my "bible," and you're telling me it's bulls***?!?!?

 

This place has busted more bubbles than my Grandmother did when I took bubble baths as a kid, lolol

 

Regarding pain meds addiction/dependence bein a disease versus not, FOR ME, I agree with Steele

 

My 14 orthopedic surgeries(11 knee, 2 shoulder & one maxilo-facial reconstruction) were "conditions," and my three bouts of cancer are "diseases"

 

My addiction to pain meds??

 

Nah, that's on ME!!

 

I didn't need my shrink to clue me in on that, lolol

 

You wanna talk about the sweats, dry heaves(I had zero appetite) and ants under my skin??

 

Boy, it sucked big time, lol

 

They wanted to do it with a gradual "draw down" and told me the time frame that it would take versus just cold turkey and that time frame and I went with the , lolol

 

Maddie sat there and held me like the 225lb. p**** that I was as I rocked back and forth all night~

 

God Bless You Seeetheart

 

Nah, for me, I'm at my best when I'm cornered with one way out and even when I'm not, I've always taken it as "me against whatever/whomever" was in between where I was and where I wanted to be and I've always taken the straight ahead path, through the wall/man/obstacle in front of me.

 

However that wasn't the worst yet to come as that was following my first cancer and I blew the s*** outa my receptors, so anything short of dilaudid/morphine and A LOT of it was like M&M's to me.

 

So my second bout of "C" was on me, lolol

 

Now THAT really sucked!!!

 

This third?

 

Everything seems to be in good working order and I'm below the normal pain med regime.

 

However for me, the only disease that I had was cancer.

 

So the Post is garbage, huh???

 

Damn......

 

Stay well Brother and the very best to ya goin forward

 

My Best,

Richard

 

 

 

I did not say the Post is garbage. I said it rivals the NY Times in the 'least credible' dept. That was a slam on the Times if anything. I don't trust any of em as they are all run by people and people always have slants and agendas so I take it all with a grain of salt.

[Forged4ever]

I agree that it doesn't matter if you consider it a disease or not. I know I have achieved sobriety not buying into it being a disease as it gives me a better foothold in dealing with my addiction. It makes me take responsibility for my actions. If others wish to perceive it as a disease that's fine.

 

I think the NY Times might rival the Post though in the 'least credible' dept though. But that too might be a matter of personal/individual perception like the disease vs. not disease debate.

Wait a sec!!!!

 

The post is my "bible," and you're telling me it's bulls***???!?!?

 

This place has busted more bubbles than my Grandmother did when I took bubble baths as a kid, lolol

 

Regarding pain meds addiction/dependence bein a disease versus not, FOR ME, I agree with Steele??

 

My 14 orthopedic surgeries(11 knee, 2 shoulder & one maxilo-facial reconstruction) were "conditions," and my three bouts of cancer are "diseases"

 

My addiction to pain meds??

 

Nah, that's on ME!!

 

I didn't need my shrink to clue me in on that, lolol

 

You wanna talk about the sweats, dry heaves(I had zero appetite) and ants?under my skin??

 

Boy, it sucked big time, lol

 

They wanted to do it with a gradual "draw down" and told me the time frame that it would take versus just cold turkey and that time frame and I went with the ?, lolol

 

Maddie sat there and held me like the 225lb. p**** that I was as I rocked back and forth all night~

 

God Bless You Seeetheart?

 

Nah, for me, I'm at my best when I'm cornered with one way out and even when I'm not, I've always taken it as "me against whatever/whomever" was in between where I was and where I wanted to be and I've always taken the straight ahead path, through the wall/man/obstacle in front of me.

 

However that wasn't the worst yet to come as that was following my first cancer and I blew the s*** outa my receptors, so anything short of dilaudid/morphine and A LOT of it was like M&M's to me.

 

So my second bout of "C" was on me, lolol

 

Now THAT really sucked?!!!

 

This third?

 

Everything seems to be in good working order and I'm below the normal pain med regime.

 

However for me, the only disease that I had was cancer.

 

So the Post is garbage, huh????

 

Damn......

 

Stay well Brother and the very best to ya goin forward?

 

My Best,

Richard

 

 

 

I did not say the Post is garbage. I said it rivals the NY Times in the 'least credible' dept. That was a slam on the Times if anything. I don't trust any of em as they are all run by people and people always have slants and agendas so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I was messin around, tryin to lighten the mood, lol?

 

I’ve been readin the Post since I was in NYC in 1989-90. I love the color pics on Page 1, lolol

 

Have a nice week?

RP

[Troutfly]

So to sum up your opinion.... Addiction is only a choice? The is nothing hardwired in the brain that causes addiction?

 

No, I've not said some people aren't predisposed to addictive behaviors. Nothing of the sort. In fact, people are predisposed to many destructive behaviors, that doesn't make them diseased. That said, getting better is a decision. Period.

 

But you're not going to actually read, so I'm done trying.

 

Curious, have you experienced addiction?

 

I have to agree with this. I've had this very conversation while begging my brother ( both at once sometimes ) to go to an actual rehab place. Offering to pay for it and drive them there etc. finally one says ". Just stop. Until I decide to quit , rehab isn't going to do a thing ". This is the one who later got sober cold turkey. Now the other one ..... i don't know. He's the weaker of the two no doubt. For him my mind is open to the idea that he can't help it. But honestly its Hard to believe that. I truly don't think he wants to . Not bad enough to do a single thing to help himself. He has a network of people who would pay for treatment , house him , feed him and employ him. And he takes none of it. That's a choice. A sad one.

 

He's the one who's child I'm

Raising. He also robbed me 4 thanksgivings ago while I was on vacation. Took things from outside my business , totaling around $3500. I caught it on camera and later found some wheels etc in a pawn shop. I didn't press charges because I simply couldn't. He did a year inside just after that for larceny that wasn't connected to my incident. Came out and went right back to drugs and drinking. I've cut all contact after that. It's just too much to be around that anymore. I feel certain I'll get the call one day to be a pallbearer at his funeral. What a terrible thought to have. But I can't make him do anything. He has to chose.

 

Look. It's a really tangled question. I'm not a teetotaler who thinks they can all just snap out of it. But it's also illegal to kidnap them and tie them to a tree until they die or detox. Cause I've thought about doing it. That's how far down the rabbit hole I've been. In the end it's a choice. A hard or impossible one maybe. But a choice. Labeling it an incurable illness makes them a victim and that enables a person like my brother. His MO is to play the woe is me card. It's not helpful to give him amo. If a person cannot make that choice what are the options ? I don't disagree with anyone's opinion that is genuine and based on experience. Just like mine maybe flawed. But it's shaped by what I've seen first hand.

All

 

All due respect Sir, the disease concept is not to be interpreted as "Poor me- I have an incurable illness". Addiction, like many other diseases, will improve and respond to treatment- example, I am one of those who has, in effect, recovered or "been cured" from a hopeless condition of mind and body, but not cured from the disease. This fact will require, if the recovering person desires to live a sane and happy life, compliance with the only alternative- complete abstinence from mood/mind altering substances. The exception, as in Richard's case, is a condition that requires medication- example, I have bouts with kidney stones- my wife has the meds hidden in our home and disperses as needed. I assure you, a couple of hydros will trigger dreams of more, this is the disease- live and in color- it always says"no problem here". I must be honest with myself, and stop medicating as soon as its gone.

 

"if a person cannot make that choice what are the options?"

As I stated in a previous post, in his eyes, he does not have a problem.

You take care of his kid,

You didn't press charges for theft of your property,

You will provide a bed, and/or a 30K vacation at a treatment facility

He has a network that will house, feed, employ......

Just your words- so who exactly has the problem?

 

I thought just the same as him. I am going to do what I please, whenever I please- plenty of options if trouble finds me, and I can go to treatment on someones dime and fatten-up for another run.

The sad fact is, there are three sure things that will happen to an addict- locked up, sobered up, or covered up.

I have two in my family that are just like him, they avoid me because Im sober and I fully expect both to die very soon.

Sounds like he has too many options, if he is living on the streets- no money or network of enablers, and chooses to stay, well he may be one of us that does not make it.

If you want to help him live, stop all the above because its doing nothing but contributing to his demise. These are the hard truths all of us have had to face, you are no different and neither is he. You are not alone- help is all around you, but only you can choose to find and apply it in your lives.

God bless, Im available if you need to talk.....

[callawayjay]

In 3 weeks I will have 27 years clean and sober. I got sober in a 12 step program. I ventured away and substituted people, money, golf, things. It’s all a ruse to keep the attention off me. When it came to looking at myself for issues, I ignored them. I went back to the program 5 years ago, my life is never better.

 

 

[bladehunter]

Trout-

 

No offense taken. I get what you’re saying. And that’s part of the reason why I pulled away. To close off part of the enabling actions. Unfortunately there is still one enabler and Its our dad. An addict himself. Albeit it functioning at this point. He’s the “ home base “ if you will . The place “ they “ my brother and which ever trick he’s running with at the moment can come to crash , eat and or bum money. Maybe even evade capture etc. other than that he is on the streets 100%. He’s a heroine addict at this point. So you’re not wrong.

 

But at the same time I honestly still see it as a choice at the root. As in you cannot force someone into treatment. Or into change to put it into simplest form. Like you said. I expect the worse.

 

I’ll fully admit to my bias. Having seen things as s kid you should never see , and now having seen my brother and his situation plus situation my nephew came from , I have very little sympathy for folks who have either such little control over themselves or such small regard for others. And I’m taking situations like selling your girl friend for drugs , trying to deliver a child in a drug house vs going to the hospital because you don’t want to get caught , and having your 3 year old in an active meth lab for over 2 weeks while your family begs you to bring him home to them for safety. It took 2 weeks to track them and figure out where it was. Then the cops were called. Kid tested so high for meth that he had to go through detox himself . At 3. Those are events I’d say qualify you for firing squad. And those have to be events that are filled with choices. Conscious choices.

 

Yes. Like you said. He avoids me too. Also a choice.

 

So I guess it comes down to a “ label “. To ca it disease is fine I suppose. In the context you provide. But. The general public doesn’t think that way. Having been around my dad and brother. They both share the victim mentality. Both would feed off that label. Somehow I can just see that label being used to validate their actions. And I cannot agree with that.

[Ferguson]

For the person who stated, "no one kicks an addiction." I disagree.

 

Every single day people quit smoking, and never smoke another day in their lives.

Same goes for booze, pills and eating disorders, etc.

 

In order to beat something you must think and act "with the end in mind." If a person lacks a desired end result then it can be said that person lacks a road map to follow and will more than likely fall back into old behaviors that support the addiction. One must believe he or she can truly kick it 100% or they will be trapped forever in pattern of behaviors that feed their addiction.

 

 

As I stated on or about my first post - Addiction is the inability to stop. Those who get the help and learn how to stop are the ones that have a higher probability of kicking the addiction. That takes guts and a major shift in daily behavior.

[callawayjay]

And my point is that the addiction is still working out inside of me, still doing push-ups, still lifting weights, and if I choose to indulge that addiction well then it will be like I never stopped

[The Pearl]

Alcohol is one of the most damaging drugs on the planet. I know a lot of players who use it for pain relief or to steady the nerves (at least it starts that way) then they begin to play golf just as an excuse to start drinking at 9am. Pro golfers are no exception. Its funny how our society views alcohol as ok yet the fight for something like legal cannabis rages on. My wife and I are both in the medical world and see first hand what substances do to people and it doesn't get much worse than an alcoholic and the horrific effects on the body.

 

As the country slowly marches toward legal cannabis I wonder how it ill be viewed 20 years from now in terms of its use and the impact on society. As a medical professional any thoughts?

 

While I certainly understand the potential medical benefits and legalizing it for recreational use, there has to be some unintended consequences for the recreational user. Even with recreational use the purpose is to change one's current mental state. There just has to be some consequences eventually.

[Ferguson]

Look at George Kennedy - A lifetime of beer drinking (and marital problems) and he forged onward kicking the booze habit to win an Oscar for Cool Hand Luke. He wasn't a very good golfer but he tried.

 

There are success stories.

 

 

[Mr. Herbert]

Look at George Kennedy - A lifetime of beer drinking (and marital problems) and he forged onward kicking the booze habit to win an Oscar for Cool Hand Luke. He wasn't a very good golfer but he tried.

 

There are success stories.

 

 

 

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but I think this sums up the problem. In your mind, he kicked the habit and was cured. But I bet if you could have asked him later in life, he would have told you that he wasn’t cured and that he was still an alcoholic despite no longer drinking.

[jeffreyl]

For the person who stated, "no one kicks an addiction." I disagree.

 

Every single day people quit smoking, and never smoke another day in their lives.

Same goes for booze, pills and eating disorders, etc.

 

In order to beat something you must think and act "with the end in mind." If a person lacks a desired end result then it can be said that person lacks a road map to follow and will more than likely fall back into old behaviors that support the addiction. One must believe he or she can truly kick it 100% or they will be trapped forever in pattern of behaviors that feed their addiction.

 

 

As I stated on or about my first post - Addiction is the inability to stop. Those who get the help and learn how to stop are the ones that have a higher probability of kicking the addiction. That takes guts and a major shift in daily behavior.

 

You really do like to hear yourself pontificate. What you are spewing is your opinion; in the real world of Alcoholism and the insanity associated with same, your posts have no validity. Much like me posting about how it is to play Professional Golf, because I have seen it, watched it and read about it. I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the reality of Alcoholism with close family members or friends. The “advice” you seem to believe is helpful is not even close.....as an example, explain how one gets “guts”.? It compares to willpower when you have diarrhea. You also don’t generally have a shift in daily behavior without surrendering and following a proven plan, hopefully with Mentors that have had the experience.. As has been stated in this thread, Alcoholism is a Physical, Mental and Spiritual disease. Quit drinking and you have the mental ( insanity) and spiritual problems. The effect and suffering on family members is another major issue that does not go away because the Alcoholic quits. Yes, “ cognitive therapy” might help, but generally that could be PART of the Recovery ( not cure) plan. One of my close friends, tried drinking after 30 years, within a very short time he was locked up and needed hospitalization....nearly died. Thankfully he is sober, today. What you are not understanding is that the mental changes that need to be made after abstaining take a long time and continued follow through, we did not get that way overnight and generally the recovery and growing process takes a lifetime. You might ask yourself why you are posting about something that you have no experience with? I would rally like an answer to that??

[The Pearl]

“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”

 

 

― Blaise Pascal,

[gvogel]

For the person who stated, "no one kicks an addiction." I disagree.

 

Every single day people quit smoking, and never smoke another day in their lives.

Same goes for booze, pills and eating disorders, etc.

 

In order to beat something you must think and act "with the end in mind." If a person lacks a desired end result then it can be said that person lacks a road map to follow and will more than likely fall back into old behaviors that support the addiction. One must believe he or she can truly kick it 100% or they will be trapped forever in pattern of behaviors that feed their addiction.

 

 

As I stated on or about my first post - Addiction is the inability to stop. Those who get the help and learn how to stop are the ones that have a higher probability of kicking the addiction. That takes guts and a major shift in daily behavior.

 

You really do like to hear yourself pontificate. What you are spewing is your opinion; in the real world of Alcoholism and the insanity associated with same, your posts have no validity. Much like me posting about how it is to play Professional Golf, because I have seen it, watched it and read about it. I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the reality of Alcoholism with close family members or friends. The “advice” you seem to believe is helpful is not even close.....as an example, explain how one gets “guts”.? It compares to willpower when you have diarrhea. You also don’t generally have a shift in daily behavior without surrendering and following a proven plan, hopefully with Mentors that have had the experience.. As has been stated in this thread, Alcoholism is a Physical, Mental and Spiritual disease. Quit drinking and you have the mental ( insanity) and spiritual problems. The effect and suffering on family members is another major issue that does not go away because the Alcoholic quits. Yes, “ cognitive therapy” might help, but generally that could be PART of the Recovery ( not cure) plan. One of my close friends, tried drinking after 30 years, within a very short time he was locked up and needed hospitalization....nearly died. Thankfully he is sober, today. What you are not understanding is that the mental changes that need to be made after abstaining take a long time and continued follow through, we did not get that way overnight and generally the recovery and growing process takes a lifetime. You might ask yourself why you are posting about something that you have no experience with? I would rally like an answer to that??

 

My experience tallies with jeffreyl.

 

It sounds as if he has a lot more experience on this subject than most others on this thread.

[bladehunter]

For the person who stated, "no one kicks an addiction." I disagree.

 

Every single day people quit smoking, and never smoke another day in their lives.

Same goes for booze, pills and eating disorders, etc.

 

In order to beat something you must think and act "with the end in mind." If a person lacks a desired end result then it can be said that person lacks a road map to follow and will more than likely fall back into old behaviors that support the addiction. One must believe he or she can truly kick it 100% or they will be trapped forever in pattern of behaviors that feed their addiction.

 

 

As I stated on or about my first post - Addiction is the inability to stop. Those who get the help and learn how to stop are the ones that have a higher probability of kicking the addiction. That takes guts and a major shift in daily behavior.

 

You really do like to hear yourself pontificate. What you are spewing is your opinion; in the real world of Alcoholism and the insanity associated with same, your posts have no validity. Much like me posting about how it is to play Professional Golf, because I have seen it, watched it and read about it. I sincerely hope that you never have to deal with the reality of Alcoholism with close family members or friends. The “advice” you seem to believe is helpful is not even close.....as an example, explain how one gets “guts”.? It compares to willpower when you have diarrhea. You also don’t generally have a shift in daily behavior without surrendering and following a proven plan, hopefully with Mentors that have had the experience.. As has been stated in this thread, Alcoholism is a Physical, Mental and Spiritual disease. Quit drinking and you have the mental ( insanity) and spiritual problems. The effect and suffering on family members is another major issue that does not go away because the Alcoholic quits. Yes, “ cognitive therapy” might help, but generally that could be PART of the Recovery ( not cure) plan. One of my close friends, tried drinking after 30 years, within a very short time he was locked up and needed hospitalization....nearly died. Thankfully he is sober, today. What you are not understanding is that the mental changes that need to be made after abstaining take a long time and continued follow through, we did not get that way overnight and generally the recovery and growing process takes a lifetime. You might ask yourself why you are posting about something that you have no experience with? I would rally like an answer to that??

 

No. I genuinely think it is you who aren’t understanding what he’s saying. Boiled to simplest form he’s saying it’s a choice. A choice one may need mountains of help with. Plans galore. Sponsors a plenty. But a choice.

 

Some do not seek any help. They chose to take the path they are on. No other way to explain it. If you get sober it’s because you chose to at some point. Yes ? If you stay that way it’s a choice to do so yes ? So we can deduce the opposite to also be true. Maybe not a conscious decision to Drink to excess initially . But a decision to continue doing it.

 

Getting defensive and arguing no fault is illustrating exactly what I said in an earlier post.