How good do you have to be to try and “ make it” as a pro?

[MtlJeff]

> @BB28403 said:

> So the odds of a person making it in Pro golf are much worse than other sports?

> Do any pros spring to mind that barely made it recently?

 

It's hard to quantify, but factoring in how many people play golf versus others sports, the amount of tour cards that are available, and the salaries of those players, I'd estimate golf is one of the "hardest" sports to be successful in. This is not an exact science though

 

Basketball for example, there's over 400 roster spots, the minimum salary is >800k and even 2 way g league contracts are around 400k I believe

 

You can kick around a while, play in the NBA for 2 seasons and make 1M + in earnings. Golf is no guarantee like that. There are roughly as many basketball players in the US as golfers

 

The NFL less people play overall, there's more roster spots and minimum salary is 500k around though non guaranteed

[DLiver]

IMO, what makes the pros so good is subtle and not readily apparent to the casual observer. A while back, I spent several rounds at a PGA tourney as a walking scorer. I was inside the ropes basically charting every shot hit by every pro in my group. The pros don't necessarily hit a lot of "wow" shots. They just hit it solidly over and over and over. They really don't hit many horrible shots, and when they do hit an errant shot, they find a way to make a bogey or par. And they make a lot of birdies. The nearly great golfers don't do this quite as often as the successful pros. It is a very fine difference. Good golfers look at the pros, and think "hey I can hit shots like that." Well they can, but they don't do it with the consistency of a pro.

[physasst]

> @DLiver said:

> IMO, what makes the pros so good is subtle and not readily apparent to the casual observer. A while back, I spent several rounds at a PGA tourney as a walking scorer. I was inside the ropes basically charting every shot hit by every pro in my group. The pros don't necessarily hit a lot of "wow" shots. They just hit it solidly over and over and over. They really don't hit many horrible shots, and when they do hit an errant shot, they find a way to make a bogey or par. And they make a lot of birdies. The nearly great golfers don't do this quite as often as the successful pros. It is a very fine difference. Good golfers look at the pros, and think "hey I can hit shots like that." Well they can, but they don't do it with the consistency of a pro.

 

Yep, when playing tennis, I got to play with some pros including Boris Becker and Stefan Edberg. I noted that (at that time) I had just as much power as them, and could serve and hit as hard as them. However, their consistency, ESPECIALLY under pressure was phenomenal. Edberg in particular could hit a little 2 inch by 2 inch spot inside of the corners over and over and over again, backhand, forehand, it didn't matter. I was a pretty damn good amateur, and I had good shot placement, but my spot was more like 10 x10 inches. I also would hit it 70% or so of the time, while he would it 95% of the time...every time. Not only are they physically gifted, but especially in individual sports like tennis or golf, the mental toughness required is something very few possess. How do you play when it is all on the line? Most people don't see the phenomenal amount of time they spend practice something over and over and over again. For example, I remember watching Agassi hit a cross court serve aiming down the middle, hitting the same serve for almost 4 hours straight. It's a commitment that not many have. That's what makes the package of mental fortitude, physical talent, and sheer will so impressive in all of these players.

[MtlJeff]

Stefan Edberg! He was my favorite player when I was like 10. I think he made it to #2 in the world. Stupid Jim Courier

[Justsomeguy]

I think most of the guys who play pro anything are pretty much like any of the other highly talented over achievers, but for one quality that is taken for granted: they're like Wolverine in the Xmen. They either don't get injured, or heal very quickly, which enables them to motor out there with greater frequency.

There are a few guys who see better, move faster, possess superior proprioception than the "baseline pro," and those guys are stars or superstars.

But the baseline pro heals faster, has thicker gauge tendons, more elastic cartilage, etc.

They're driving an suv of a body while the average person is driving a basic sedan with a commensurate suspension.

[robdalky]

Jordan Spieth shot a 62 at one of the private clubs in DFW.... when he was 12

 

I get it, you watch these guys on TV and think, yeah if I practiced that much I could do that. The reality of it though is probably closer to the idea that you’re no more likely to become a PGA Tour pro than you are likely to become LeBron James...

[Justsomeguy]

Likewise there are some guys who have the superior eyes, muscles and proprioception who lack the Wolverine quality, and these guys can't take the grind of how much practice it takes, not past 22 anyway, and if they can, they don't last. Body tanks.

[BB28403]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > So the odds of a person making it in Pro golf are much worse than other sports?

> > Do any pros spring to mind that barely made it recently?

>

> Lanto Griffin is a good example of how winning at the right time can change things. But also how tough it can be. He won an event after making the cut on the number and earned his PGA Tour card.

 

Stories like that are great. Iteach were you impressed by Roberto Castro making it back?

 

 

[tgard227]

> > >

> > I have a hard time believing that one would have a great game and decide to walk away from it without at least trying. You can always go back to the office later in life.

> >

>

> Some people just do the math. Odds of making it in a pro sport are low if you aren't a blue chipper, if you don't make it and start in an office later in life you potentially make huge earnings sacrifices. Companies like young folks because they can groom them and grow in the company at a reasonable rate. Most companies don't want to hire 30yr olds in entry level positions , they'd rather hire a 23yr old who will be more patient. Sucks but this is the reality in many places. It's nice to get in a company young , if you work hard you can do well. Not as glamorous as pro sports but hey, it pays the bills

>

> When I was 23 the starting salary in my job was the same as a CFL player. And I wouldn't have to live in Winnipeg or Saskatchewan praying for an NFL shot. I sometimes wish I'd tried, buy realistically if I didn't make it, I'd be doing a lot worse than I am now

 

I think i would ask someone who was a +4 or +5 handicap at the age of 23,24 or 25 who didn't even test the waters what it is going to be like to watch the US Open when they are 50. I have a hard time believing that one would not even try it for a year unless they had an incredibly sweet corporate gig when exiting college but it's only my speculation as the lowest I got was about 3.5 off of that level.

I think you are placing too much faith in the corporate world or maybe I'm just jaded in the corporate world because of graduating college in 2008. Whatever the case is, life has risks no matter the path you take and I've found that there truly are no safe routes or guarantees in life.

 

If someone wants to read a feel good story: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/meet-chris-thompson-the-pga-tours-newest-42-year-old-rookie I've bumped in to him on a couple of occasions(just in passing) and he seems like a pretty good person. I hope he makes it.

 

As to the amount of players who make it in golf vs. other sports. Take the NFL for example where they have a 53 man roster and 30 teams, that equates to 1530 players in the NFL every year. MLB has a 25 man roster with 32 teams so 800 players in the MLB. Yes, golf may be the toughest sport to make it to the big show from a numbers perspective.

 

[Roy D Mercer]

You better be able to post 67 or better anytime and anywhere you tee it up at a good 7,000 yd+ course under any conditions.

[MtlJeff]

> @tgard227 said:

> > > >

> > > I have a hard time believing that one would have a great game and decide to walk away from it without at least trying. You can always go back to the office later in life.

> > >

> >

> > Some people just do the math. Odds of making it in a pro sport are low if you aren't a blue chipper, if you don't make it and start in an office later in life you potentially make huge earnings sacrifices. Companies like young folks because they can groom them and grow in the company at a reasonable rate. Most companies don't want to hire 30yr olds in entry level positions , they'd rather hire a 23yr old who will be more patient. Sucks but this is the reality in many places. It's nice to get in a company young , if you work hard you can do well. Not as glamorous as pro sports but hey, it pays the bills

> >

> > When I was 23 the starting salary in my job was the same as a CFL player. And I wouldn't have to live in Winnipeg or Saskatchewan praying for an NFL shot. I sometimes wish I'd tried, buy realistically if I didn't make it, I'd be doing a lot worse than I am now

>

> I think i would ask someone who was a +4 or +5 handicap at the age of 23,24 or 25 who didn't even test the waters what it is going to be like to watch the US Open when they are 50. I have a hard time believing that one would not even try it for a year unless they had an incredibly sweet corporate gig when exiting college but it's only my speculation as the lowest I got was about 3.5 off of that level.

> I think you are placing too much faith in the corporate world or maybe I'm just jaded in the corporate world because of graduating college in 2008. Whatever the case is, life has risks no matter the path you take and I've found that there truly are no safe routes or guarantees in life.

>

> If someone wants to read a feel good story: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/meet-chris-thompson-the-pga-tours-newest-42-year-old-rookie I've bumped in to him on a couple of occasions(just in passing) and he seems like a pretty good person. I hope he makes it.

>

> As to the amount of players who make it in golf vs. other sports. Take the NFL for example where they have a 53 man roster and 30 teams, that equates to 1530 players in the NFL every year. MLB has a 25 man roster with 32 teams so 800 players in the MLB. Yes, golf may be the toughest sport to make it to the big show from a numbers perspective.

>

 

My story wasn't hypothetical it's my real story. I understand it's not a golf story but i thought it was relevant to your comment. I work in the corporate world right now and have for the past 15 years. Going into University i was the top ranked prospect in Canada at my position in football. Truthfully i didn't love football but i mostly also didn't want to chase the dream in the CFL while sacrificing what was a potentially good business career for a low percentage chance at an NFL career. If you factor in 3-4 yrs in the minors (CFL), 2-3 yrs in the NFL (a great and low percentage outcome) followed by starting in the business world at 30 and the shortcomings that brings, by the time i am 60 i would likely have a better overall career choosing to go into business at 23. Though there are no guarantees.

 

I think it's relevant to golf because the mini tours don't pay very well. If you are a really smart dude and can get a good office job out ofn college, i don't think it's a bad decision to take it. Statistically it probably makes more sense to take it. As Richard points out, there are so many guys out there we've never heard of. It's easy to see guys like Zach Johnson and applaud people for chasing the dream successfully, but there are many that chase it and struggle financially. I don't hate on those guys, good on them for going for it. It just wasn't for me

[ebrasmus21]

> @"Roy D Mercer" said:

> You better be able to post 67 or better anytime and anywhere you tee it up at a good 7,000 yd+ course under any conditions.

 

Your handle name made me laugh. Haven’t listened to R D Mercer in years. “How big a boy are ya?” Lol

[Roy D Mercer]

I'm a pretty Big 'Ol Boy... when's the last time you had an azz-whupp'n? It ain't nuttin fer me to whip a man's azz.

[300_yard_drives]

When you get disappointed shooting -7 at your home course (assuming it’s not a ridiculously difficult course) then I would say you can give it a go. A lot of guys just donate on mini tours.

[braincramp52]

I guess the moral of the story is that at age 66 I should probably give up on my dream of playing on the Champions Tour. B)

[crapula]

My average score is 78 and if I was 10 shots better I wouldn't even consider Monday qualifying on the Web.com tour.

[ram01002]

My friend has had some sort of tour card for the past 6 years ..... when he’s in town he plays us as a +7 hdcp. And he usually wins. :)

[ryan983]

> @crapula said:

> My average score is 78 and if I was 10 shots better I wouldn't even consider Monday qualifying on the Web.com tour.

 

I guess it would depend on the difficulty of the course a guy were averaging 68 on but even given an average difficulty, why not try a couple? Just because you play a couple Monday qualifiers doesn’t mean you have to go down the road of turning professional.

 

If said golfer is averaging 68, he likely won’t play with many am’s that are much better than him. In any given am event, there might only be a handful that could hang with this theoretical golfer. If he would want to play in something with 100+ guys equal to or better than him, he would have to play in a professional event setting of some kind.

[PapaJohick]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @buzzthecat said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > US +6 or UK +3 would be my starting point.

> > > > >

> > > > > Plenty of guys in the D league and playing all over Europe, Australia, and Asia chasing professional basketball. It’s not that they think they can be better than Steph Curry, but they think they can make a living playing basketball and potentially make an NBA roster.

> > > > >

> > > > > I teach a good number of guys who are trying to make it and some who have made it. There’s no draft in golf, and some guys “trying to make it” would be first or second round picks if golf worked like other sports.

> > > >

> > > > As a junior what do you think guys like Spieth and JT and DJ were playing at? Would you say those guys were all +5 minimum all throughout their amateur days?

> > >

> > > Yes. The top junior golfers are at least that good. Top 32 right now are all tournament +4s or better and their actual handicaps will be considerably lower. Cody Carroll was a +7.2 when he was ranked around 25 in the country. Played as the number 5 man or as an individual in college all year this year, just to show how much better top college players are than juniors. He did win conference freshman of the year though.

> >

> > I'm continually amazed at how good some folks are at golf. I'm a 3 hdcp and I rarely play with anyone better than me. It's just unreal how many exceptional players are out there...especially the juniors!

>

> It's still a numbers thing. Some states have better golfers (Florida, California, Arizona?) And the best juniors are usually going to go to the best junior programs.

>

> If you're a 3 index technically you are better than what , 98% of golfers? Not even accounting for regional biases yet

>

> A 3 index would be a top 10 player at many courses in Quebec for example. A 3 index walking on as a single at public courses might go 5 years without playing with someone better than him. At least around here

>

> I have never been paired with a better player than me at a public course, and my handicap ranged from 0-3 in that span, were talking 15 years

 

I mean the funny thing is, Im not a great player by any means (sitting around a 9-10) and in the past 2 years, I can count on one hand the amount of people who are better than I am that I have been paired with (roughly 80-100 rounds in those two years). I know theyre out there haha as we have a good golfing population, but as many rounds as I play a year, i just don't run into them.

 

A legit 3 or better player would be winning most club championships here in charleston year in and year out. The players from here that are better typically are usually already pros (pga or playing wise).

[rusty380]

I often use to sit and wonder if there was anyway I could make it, then i'd remember I buckled on 18 only last weekend in a club comp with a £5 entry fee.

 

If I ever did have the game to make it ( i don't), I sure as hell wouldn't have the mindset to, everything goes in slow motion when i'm putting out in a scratch match in a pressure situation. How would someone that gets that way cope when they are playing for their livelihood?

 

When I reflect on competitions I realise how meaningless it is in the scheme of things, but in the heat of the moment at the time it's more important than anything. I'm an over thinker.

 

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

If you can walk in to any course you haven't seen before and shoot mid 60s, you might have a chance.

[farmer]

I've been to many big tour tournaments, and have always enjoyed attending Tuesday practice rounds. You see so many guys who are ridiculously good who never "make it".

[scott_Donald]

Paul Lawrie was about 3/4 when he turned pro and won the Open and played in a couple Ryder cups. Did Poulter not turn pro with a not so good handicap?

 

Richie Ramsay was not the best handicap player at my course when he turned pro and has done pretty well.

 

What amazes me is how good some of the golfers are now scoring wise but then there are varying differences in course difficulty. Difference between top 50 in the world vs the next tear also of good turning pro.

[elthrill]

If you want to beat Tiger Or Dj or Brooks, you better have been born with something special. But if you just want to try and make a few cuts in a small pro events and make a respectable run at some good state level events you just have to learn to control your ball to hit a ton of greens. if you can keep it in the fairway and hit enough greens to get yourself 8 really good looks at birdie a round...give it a go. Aint nothin to be skeered of! Count how many legit birdie putts (inside 20 feet) you have a round, when its consistently at 8+ ...you are ready to take off the training wheels and get your beak wet. And 60% greens is the mendoza line. If you aint hitting 11+ greens most every time out, forget it. I dont care how well you scramble or putt. you have to hit double digit greens to play tournament golf with any expectation of consistency. 4 day professional tournaments will generally eliminate the guys who cant get the ball on the green in regulation.

[blehnhard]

I guess that I could be considered the exception to the general train of thought on this. I had a 28 year career as an assistant pro (5 years) and head pro (23 years) during which time I steadily improved as a competitive golfer. When I turned pro in 1965, I was at best a 5 hdcp and 75 would have been a good score for me. By the time I was 50, I had qualified for 1 US Open (Merion 71 - MC), 3 PGA Championships (thru Club Pro Champ. finishes, all MC), 5 Kemper Opens (1 cut made - 1992), and 4 AB Classics (all MC). I had played in 14 PGA Club Pro Championships with 4 top tens including an outright 3rd. I won numerous PGA sectional events including MAPGA Championship, and won 2 VA State Opens. At no time would I have considered myself any better than maybe a +1 or +2 hdcp.

In the fall of 1992, I entered the Senior PGA Tour Qualifying School, finished 3rd in the regionals and finished 7th in the finals to gain fully exempt status for the 93 season. I finished 58th on the money list with a best of a tie for 2nd at the Long Island Classic 2 strokes behind Ray Floyd.

I did not earn exempt status for 1994 (top 50 on money list) and missed at Q School. Missed at Q School for 95, 96, and 97 seasons, Did Monday 4 spotters and mini tours with some modest success - 4 spotted for Tampa tournament in 95 and finished tie for 5th. 4 spotted 5 time out of 9 tries in 97. Finished 13th at Q School for 98 season (partial exemption - got in 17 events that year and 75th on money list). Missed at Q school for 99 season, so "called it a day" and got a real job for the next 10 years in the golf industry.

I was never a "real low scores" but could put together steady rounds of par or a little under. Consider myself lucky to have had the opportunity and had more in the bank when I finished then when I started.

[iteachgolf]

> @blehnhard said:

> I guess that I could be considered the exception to the general train of thought on this. I had a 28 year career as an assistant pro (5 years) and head pro (23 years) during which time I steadily improved as a competitive golfer. When I turned pro in 1965, I was at best a 5 hdcp and 75 would have been a good score for me. By the time I was 50, I had qualified for 1 US Open (Merion 71 - MC), 3 PGA Championships (thru Club Pro Champ. finishes, all MC), 5 Kemper Opens (1 cut made - 1992), and 4 AB Classics (all MC). I had played in 14 PGA Club Pro Championships with 4 top tens including an outright 3rd. I won numerous PGA sectional events including MAPGA Championship, and won 2 VA State Opens. At no time would I have considered myself any better than maybe a +1 or +2 hdcp.

> In the fall of 1992, I entered the Senior PGA Tour Qualifying School, finished 3rd in the regionals and finished 7th in the finals to gain fully exempt status for the 93 season. I finished 58th on the money list with a best of a tie for 2nd at the Long Island Classic 2 strokes behind Ray Floyd.

> I did not earn exempt status for 1994 (top 50 on money list) and missed at Q School. Missed at Q School for 95, 96, and 97 seasons, Did Monday 4 spotters and mini tours with some modest success - 4 spotted for Tampa tournament in 95 and finished tie for 5th. 4 spotted 5 time out of 9 tries in 97. Finished 13th at Q School for 98 season (partial exemption - got in 17 events that year and 75th on money list). Missed at Q school for 99 season, so "called it a day" and got a real job for the next 10 years in the golf industry.

> I was never a "real low scores" but could put together steady rounds of par or a little under. Consider myself lucky to have had the opportunity and had more in the bank when I finished then when I started.

 

Things were a lot different 25-30 years ago. A +1 or +2 is rarely breaking 74 on most PGA Tour setups.

 

 

A bunch of rounds of par or a couple under means you were much better than a +1 or a +2. In 1995 your scoring average was 71.2 and if we drop your 4 highest scores your average was 70.55, on courses with rating that average 73-74 and slopes in the mid to upper 130s.

[wmblake2000]

> @"Roy D Mercer" said:

> I'm a pretty Big 'Ol Boy... when's the last time you had an azz-whupp'n? It ain't nuttin fer me to whip a man's azz.

 

Ok that was funny enough that I looked Roy D Mercer up...

 

[wmblake2000]

I knew a guy back in the day. He could get thru 2nd stage of q school but then hit the wall. It wasn’t his skill it was the pressure. You gotta shoot 69 when it really matters.

[cardoustie]

These guys are WAY better than you think. I've played with a lot of top am's (+2 to +5) and a lot of pro's. I was a scratch college player fwiw

Two stories from all my games with pro's and am's at high levels:

My bud missed the cut at the Cdn Open one year (Mid Am +3 tournament guy), think he shot 71-71 on a 74 rated course. Amazing as he was 45 and it was tour conditions in a big PGA Tour event right? Well .... Carl Petterson shot 60 on one of those days !!

I played 2 rounds with Brendan Steele at a Nationwide event. As an Am we were up a set of tees. 6,600 vs 6,900 sort of deal. I was a solid 2 or 3 at the time and shot 73-73 (still playing provincial and national Mid-Am and Am stuff at the time). Brendan, playing from 20-30 yards farther back on every hole of course, fired 68's. 63 in play either day. And these were bad 68's. Making no putts, just birdies on every par 5. As a poster above said, nothing looks amazing at first glance. But the ball is long, and curves very little and it adds up to a good round and a payday at the end of the day/week

 

[Clambake]

Here's one way to look at it. Assume your "make it as a pro" criteria means you're in the top 200 on FedEx list so that you either keep your card or can qualify for the Web.com finals and try to keep your card. According to the USGA there are about 25 million players worldwide with an index. That means to "make it" you have to be in the upper 0.0008% of golfers globally who care enough to keep an index (which is a small percentage of total number of golfers). That's only slightly better than the odds of getting struck by lightning this year.

 

Yeah, these guys really are that good.