The decline of the country club

[dpb5031]

Can't help but note the irony in that many of the statements made by those denouncing private clubs are self-admittedly basing their vociferous opinions largely on stereotypes and conjecture, rather than experience. They've never belonged to a private club...lol...yet claim the demise of private clubs is imminent because they're just a gathering place for bigoted snobs who need to "pay for" friends and bask in trivial luxuries. Talk about a myopic view. And these are guys claiming to be learned, highly educated types, yet somehow they aren't self-aware enough to conceal the sizable chips on their shoulders and perhaps a tinge of jealousy. Just because you've watched CaddyShack a half a dozen times and The Masters green jacket ceremony on TV every year doesnt make you an expert on the private club scene...lol. As Ferg said in a previous post, ya can't lump all privates into the same bucket. Sure, I've played at some pretentious and snobby clubs with plenty of second and third generation trust fund baby members, but... the clubs I've belonged to have been remarkably inclusive and full of a diverse group of self-made folks who enjoy camaraderie with others who simply share a common passion for the game and like to have a good time.

[braincramp52]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > nothing is cheap in nj...

> >

> > you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

> >

> > my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

> $8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

>

> Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy **** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

>

> Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

>

> As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

 

That's crazy!! I could have just bought a pretty decent course about 30 minutes away for 400K. 120 acres,18 holes ,nice club house and outbuildings.

[MaxBuck]

> @dpb5031 said:

>... just a gathering place for bigoted snobs who need to "pay for" friends and bask in trivial luxuries.

 

You've hit my own reasons for joining squarely on the head, but others are likely different.

 

 

[Roody]

> It is a broken model. All I want is the golf, a meal, and a drink. Myself and everyone I know don't need all the other fluff of a club. It's like a fraternity - paying for friends.

> Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

 

If you don't find value in all the other amenities a private course offers, that's fine. Personally, I find a lot of value in:

* Better course upkeep. Higher quality greens, sand traps

* No tee times. As the guy who was usually in charge of making the tee times for my foursome, it's rather nice to just be able to show up and go

* Locker room facilities, bag storage, shoe cleaning.

* Regular group of like-minded guys to play with. I honestly have too many new groups of guys to play with that I have to spread out my time between them. It's a great problem to have

* The restaurant at my club is fantastic. Food has been top-notch. And the adult beverage pours are much more generous than everywhere else, and for the same price or even cheaper.

* Tons of tournaments, events.

* Ladies league for my wife, who has played more golf in the past two months than she's played in 5 years. She's gotten so excited about golf that we're starting to have conversations about what the next vacation will be, and what kind of golf it offers. She's never done that before. Usually I have to try to figure out how to squeeze in golf around everything else.

 

Before I joined last year, I was a little like you. I didn't "see the value in the extra fluff". But now that I'm here, I realized I couldn't have been more wrong.

[BMC]

Our family oriented "Country Club" offers:

54 holes of golf

excellent practice facilities

12 tennis courts

two large pools

big, modern fitness center

pub like restaurant and large ballroom/dining rooms

free kids care while you play

Full membership monthly dues for the entire family = $585 (no assessments)

Do you want all the above or a new SUV for $585 payment?

[dpb5031]

I think someone else mentioned this, but one of the things I enjoyed most about being a private club member was the "luxury" of playing less than a full round. I'd often head over to the club with my daughter in the early evenings, grab a cart (I paid for an unlimited cart plan), and we'd play 6 or 9 holes together before dark. Hard to do that at most public courses. She's now playing DI golf on a full ride to an excellent school that if I had to write a check, would cost over $60k annually. In our case, this would have been extremely unlikely had we not belonged to the club. Not a bad ROI...LOL?

[BuzzCat]

I'm in my middle 30s, so I can't claim to know what life was like before my generation. But talking with older guys and gals it seems like modern home life has taken a pretty serious right-turn in the past 25 years. No longer can Dad play a twilight 9 Tuesday, men's league Thursday, cards on Friday, and 18 on Saturday.

 

There's day-to-day chores, yard work, soccer practice, cooking, cleaning, diaper changing, soccer games, cheer practice, church, etc...I could go on. Those things have always existed, but Dad's share of the responsibility and his willingness/eagerness to increase his share has increased. My Dad, god bless him, I don't think he's ever changed a diaper. He also had a running Sunday morning tee time for 20 years. Something I could only dream of while I'm knee deep in pampers and Paw Patrol. And for the record I think the societal shift is a good thing. Why should Dad play golf while Mom busts her a** all weekend? Child rearing isn't all cake and rainbows.

 

Even for someone like me who could afford a CC membership, there's just no point. It's better to pay the public rate a few times a month. I think I may join a club when my kids get older...but I'm a golf enthusiast. A CC can't survive on guys who finally join when they hit 50....because most of those guys will have already stopped playing.

[dpb5031]

> @buzzthecat said:

> I'm in my middle 30s, so I can't claim to know what life was like before my generation. But talking with older guys and gals it seems like modern home life has taken a pretty serious right-turn in the past 25 years. No longer can Dad play a twilight 9 Tuesday, men's league Thursday, cards on Friday, and 18 on Saturday.

>

> There's day-to-day chores, yard work, soccer practice, cooking, cleaning, diaper changing, soccer games, cheer practice, church, etc...I could go on. Those things have always existed, but Dad's share of the responsibility and his willingness/eagerness to increase his share has increased. My Dad, god bless him, I don't think he's ever changed a diaper. He also had a running Sunday morning tee time for 20 years. Something I could only dream of while I'm knee deep in pampers and Paw Patrol. And for the record I think the societal shift is a good thing. Why should Dad play golf while Mom busts her **** all weekend? Child rearing isn't all cake and rainbows.

>

> Even for someone like me who could afford a CC membership, there's just no point. It's better to pay the public rate a few times a month. I think I may join a club when my kids get older...but I'm a golf enthusiast. A CC can't survive on guys who finally join when they hit 50....because most of those guys will have already stopped playing.

 

WHAT...already stopped at 50...LOL? Dont blink ?! I just turned 51 and now that my kids are out of the house I'm playing more than ever and so are most of my golf buddies. In fact, I recently started competing in more tournaments and last week attempted to qualify for the US Senior Open.

 

Truth is, finding work/life/golf balance is easier if you belong to a private club. Regular and convenient tee times are easier to secure, plus see my comments about playing partial rounds. In terms of the weekends, I worked out a nice plan with my wife. She had a demanding career and worked hard, though mostly from home. She enjoyed sleeping in on weekends. Id wake early with the kids, get them bathed, fed, and dressed, then pass them off to her at around 9:30 and head to the club for our 10 am game. She'd meet me at the pool by 2:30 and we'd enjoy the rest of the day together. It worked great. Now, when the kids got a bit older and got into all types of sports, things became more challenging and my weekend golf dropped off a bit. Where theres a will (and some compromise), theres a way.

[North Butte]

@dpb5031 said:

> I think someone else mentioned this, but one of the things I enjoyed most about being a private club member was the "luxury" of playing less than a full round. I'd often head over to the club with my daughter in the early evenings, grab a cart (I paid for an unlimited cart plan), and we'd play 6 or 9 holes together before dark. Hard to do that at most public courses. She's now playing DI golf on a full ride to an excellent school that if I had to write a check, would cost over $60k annually. In our case, this would have been extremely unlikely had we not belonged to the club. Not a bad ROI...LOL?

 

The first 10 years I played golf it was at a scruffy public course a mile or two down the road from my house. Can't count how many times I played just a few holes. It was only $10 for nine and $15 for eighteen after work on weekdays. I was a beginner so I'd practice on the driving range, maybe the putting green then play a few holes before getting home for supper.

 

Isn't it kind of weird reasoning? Paying thousands of dollars a year to belong to a private club and then figure you're somehow saving money because you can go play 6 holes then quit. You're paying your dues whether you play 6 or play 54...or play none at all.

[Hawkeye77]

> @buzzthecat said:

>

> Even for someone like me who could afford a CC membership, there's just no point. It's better to pay the public rate a few times a month. I think I may join a club when my kids get older...but I'm a golf enthusiast. A CC can't survive on guys who finally join when they hit 50....because most of those guys will have already stopped playing.

 

You think all those exclusive and expensive private clubs in the Palm Springs area aren't surviving off a lot of millionaires and/or retirees who are 50+? LOL.

[Hawkeye77]

Played more golf since turning 50 than in twice as many years before that, easily and I played plenty before that.

[KMeloney]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

 

Hold on... You get "looks" because these people know you're highly educated and in a white-collar job making $1MM+? How do they know all of those things just by you demoing a club?

 

[dpb5031]

> @"North Butte" said:

> @dpb5031 said:

> > I think someone else mentioned this, but one of the things I enjoyed most about being a private club member was the "luxury" of playing less than a full round. I'd often head over to the club with my daughter in the early evenings, grab a cart (I paid for an unlimited cart plan), and we'd play 6 or 9 holes together before dark. Hard to do that at most public courses. She's now playing DI golf on a full ride to an excellent school that if I had to write a check, would cost over $60k annually. In our case, this would have been extremely unlikely had we not belonged to the club. Not a bad ROI...LOL?

>

> The first 10 years I played golf it was at a scruffy public course a mile or two down the road from my house. Can't count how many times I played just a few holes. It was only $10 for nine and $15 for eighteen after work on weekdays. I was a beginner so I'd practice on the driving range, maybe the putting green then play a few holes before getting home for supper.

>

> Isn't it kind of weird reasoning? Paying thousands of dollars a year to belong to a private club and then figure you're somehow saving money because you can go play 6 holes then quit. You're paying your dues whether you play 6 or play 54...or play none at all.

 

Well, first off, Im glad you had that option, but where I lived in NJ we didnt have that type of convenient and affordable easy access, so I think that's very geographically dependent. Next, I'd much rather play on a finely manicured championship course with perfect greens stimping at 11.5 than on a scruffy beat-up course. Again, everyone will have different priorities. Like another poster said, it's how you choose to spend your discretionary income. I chose the private club route and was happy to forego expensive vacations and to to drive my Honda instead of some gas guzzling luxury SUV.

[North Butte]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > I think someone else mentioned this, but one of the things I enjoyed most about being a private club member was the "luxury" of playing less than a full round. I'd often head over to the club with my daughter in the early evenings, grab a cart (I paid for an unlimited cart plan), and we'd play 6 or 9 holes together before dark. Hard to do that at most public courses. She's now playing DI golf on a full ride to an excellent school that if I had to write a check, would cost over $60k annually. In our case, this would have been extremely unlikely had we not belonged to the club. Not a bad ROI...LOL?

> >

> > The first 10 years I played golf it was at a scruffy public course a mile or two down the road from my house. Can't count how many times I played just a few holes. It was only $10 for nine and $15 for eighteen after work on weekdays. I was a beginner so I'd practice on the driving range, maybe the putting green then play a few holes before getting home for supper.

> >

> > Isn't it kind of weird reasoning? Paying thousands of dollars a year to belong to a private club and then figure you're somehow saving money because you can go play 6 holes then quit. You're paying your dues whether you play 6 or play 54...or play none at all.

>

> Well, first off, Im glad you had that option, but where I lived in NJ we didnt have that type of convenient and affordable easy access, so I think that's very geographically dependent. Next, I'd much rather play on a finely manicured championship course with perfect greens stimping at 11.5 than on a scruffy beat-up course. Again, everyone will have different priorities. Like another poster said, it's how you choose to spend your discretionary income. I chose the private club route and was happy to forego expensive vacations and to to drive my Honda instead of some gas guzzling luxury SUV.

 

Hey, I'm a member of a private club too. I value course conditions (and in my case the ability to walk instead of use a cart, which is required at most public courses) and am willing to stump up a considerable premium every year to get it. Totally get the appeal.

 

But it's more expensive, period. There's no savings if I happen to play 6 holes then quit. Same as at a public course, you pay your money then if you want to play fewer holes that doesn't affect the cost.

[BuzzCat]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @buzzthecat said:

> > I'm in my middle 30s, so I can't claim to know what life was like before my generation. But talking with older guys and gals it seems like modern home life has taken a pretty serious right-turn in the past 25 years. No longer can Dad play a twilight 9 Tuesday, men's league Thursday, cards on Friday, and 18 on Saturday.

> >

> > There's day-to-day chores, yard work, soccer practice, cooking, cleaning, diaper changing, soccer games, cheer practice, church, etc...I could go on. Those things have always existed, but Dad's share of the responsibility and his willingness/eagerness to increase his share has increased. My Dad, god bless him, I don't think he's ever changed a diaper. He also had a running Sunday morning tee time for 20 years. Something I could only dream of while I'm knee deep in pampers and Paw Patrol. And for the record I think the societal shift is a good thing. Why should Dad play golf while Mom busts her **** all weekend? Child rearing isn't all cake and rainbows.

> >

> > Even for someone like me who could afford a CC membership, there's just no point. It's better to pay the public rate a few times a month. I think I may join a club when my kids get older...but I'm a golf enthusiast. A CC can't survive on guys who finally join when they hit 50....because most of those guys will have already stopped playing.

>

> WHAT...already stopped at 50...LOL? Dont blink ?! I just turned 51 and now that my kids are out of the house I'm playing more than ever and so are most of my golf buddies. In fact, I recently started competing in more tournaments and last week attempted to qualify for the US Senior Open.

>

> Truth is, finding work/life/golf balance is easier if you belong to a private club. Regular and convenient tee times are easier to secure, plus see my comments about playing partial rounds. In terms of the weekends, I worked out a nice plan with my wife. She had a demanding career and worked hard, though mostly from home. She enjoyed sleeping in on weekends. Id wake early with the kids, get them bathed, fed, and dressed, then pass them off to her at around 9:30 and head to the club for our 10 am game. She'd meet me at the pool by 2:30 and we'd enjoy the rest of the day together. It worked great. Now, when the kids got a bit older and got into all types of sports, things became more challenging and my weekend golf dropped off a bit. Where theres a will (and some compromise), theres a way.

 

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> Played more golf since turning 50 than in twice as many years before that, easily and I played plenty before that.

 

What I was trying to say is that a "regular" golfer (ie non-golfwrx user) who stops playing when kids/work/life get in the way is less likely to join a club later in life when they have the time.

 

In regards to work/life/golf balance, I think I have a decent balance right now. But the golf side is still not enough to justify a club membership. And don't get me wrong, I would love to join a club...I have nothing against them.

 

 

 

 

[Titleist_PT23]

I looked at joining a club a handful of years ago (mid-30s at the time). I didn't do it as a) I thought the per round rate was not a great deal, b) my work schedule was too hectic to really know when/how much I could play, c) our kids were too young to use any of the other facilities or golf, and d) we put little value on the social aspect of the club (rightly or wrongly or just personality differences).

 

It turned out to be somewhat lucky that we didn't join, as we moved out of the area in a couple of years.

 

I'd consider joining again once our kids are out of the house. For me, I'd say it will still be mainly for the golf (less crowded, easy access, better conditions, etc) though.

[North Butte]

In my (geographically limited) experience, the basic idea behind the country club lifestyle used to be you joined when your kids were small. Dad and perhaps Mom played golf once a week plus the kids could use the pool and such. Then once the kids were off to college Dad and/or Mom had time to hook up with the Men's and Ladies Association type groups and play more golf. Finally, when retirement came the parents were free to play every day with the other retirees if they liked.

 

One issue with this arrangement was it really depends on the club being at least somewhat nearby to where the family lives. Hard to let your kids go to the club every day in the summer if you live 25 miles of heavy weekday traffic from the club. Also cuts into the ability of the parents to get out and play golf unless they have darned near a whole day fee. Likewise, you're not like to drive an hour each regularly just to eat dinner at the club if that means literally driving past a hundred other restaurants along the way.

 

That's probably one reason it was popular in the 80's and 90's to build country clubs in association with housing developments. That whole deal works great if you live adjacent to the 15th fairway and can walk or drive your golf cart directly from home to clubhouse in just a few minutes. But there's only a certain percentage of families in a given housing development who want to spend, say, $500/month or so on a country club membership. For one thing, the kids are going have umpteen different activities year-round (other than golfer or hanging out at the pool) and no matter how close they live to the country club they're going to be shuttled around all over town for other sports and pursuits. Which themselves are expensive, to boot.

 

Then there's the drinking thing. Apparently (and this is second-hand as I have no experience with this particular demographic) having a few drinks somewhere several times a week was for a lot of people just a normal part of life. At one time, the bar at my club was open until 9pm or so several evenings a week and later on weekends. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's it would be normal for a couple dozen members (or member couples) to see each other on a regular basis over drinks in the clubhouse bar. Some combination of fewer people drinking that much liquor and the fact that law enforcement finally got around to taking drunk driving seriously really put a crimp on that. I'll bet the bar at my club (which serves more limited hours now) probably sells literally 1/10th or 1/20th as many mixed drinks per week as they did back in the 80's. That right there is a huge loss of revenue.

[dpb5031]

I'll acknowledge that finding "the right" club can be a challenge. I found that since moving to Jupiter, FL. Many places down here are exhorbinantly expensive. I just can't run with a crowd that can afford 6 figure initiations, $20k+ annual dues, and a buck twenty for a caddy every time out. For me, it's a matter of finding the right fit in terms of budget, convenient location, a regular (and competitive) game, good dudes, good course with good conditions, and a club that is in sound fiscal shape with good management. We're comfortable, but far from wealthy. Generally, you'll find a higher number of low handicap players at the mid-tier type clubs.

 

In most cases, if you're truly fretting price per round, a private club is probably not for you. Then again, I know plenty of 50+ year olds who play nearly 200 rounds per year down here and easily get their money's worth.

[dpb5031]

> @KMeloney said:

> > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

>

> Hold on... You get "looks" because these people know you're highly educated and in a white-collar job making $1MM+? How do they know all of those things just by you demoing a club?

>

 

In all fairness to @Hack Daddy, he said 6 figure income, not seven, and I'm pretty sure he was speaking from the perspective of being African American...something no one can fully understand unless they've walked a mile in his shoes.

 

Let's not pretend that racism, bigotry, and discrimination dont exist. Sadly, our country hasn't made as much progress in that area as one would have hoped. Relative to this discussion however, those things exist pretty much everywhere, not just at private golf clubs. Again, the private clubs I've belonged to have been very "inclusive."

[wkuo3]

> @MtlJeff said:

> The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

>

> Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

>

> Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

 

No Kidding ! Our Mobile + internet + cable + security subscription each year could easily pay for the golf and country club dues.

Well, kids can not live without their internet and mobile service, even school will send out messages to their mobile numbers and most of the hme work have to be performed on the internet links.

We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had broomed them into the good habits when they were young.

Looking at some of the kids ( young men and ladies ) of our friends, basically they don't like exercise nor outdoor sports. To think how they will age with the future medical needs is beyond imagination.

The game of golf needs commitment, of both time and financial resources. This can only be sustained with passion for the game. Younger geneation sneezed at hard working and commitment, heck, they don't even like marriage and children. They just want to enjoy life, the easy way like a boxed solution .

 

[wkuo3]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I was on the BOD at my club in NJ for 7 years. It was very challenging getting millennials not just to join, but to participate. Most wanted to join with a few friends, show up and play with those same guys every Sat morning, then retreat to the parking lot. They'd hit balls or practice on the putting green with their ear buds in, and their nose in their phone in between. Often no interaction or attempts to socialize and get involved in club games or other activities. Very different than when I first joined my club as a young guy in the mid 90s. I got involved from the get-go and had a blast.

 

 

True as in every segment of the society, even at work place.

 

[Hack Daddy]

> @KMeloney said:

> > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

>

> Hold on... You get "looks" because these people know you're highly educated and in a white-collar job making $1MM+? How do they know all of those things just by you demoing a club?

>

 

As much as I shouldn't reply to such a troll post - I get looks because a lot of people don't want a Black man in their club. I'd like to have a rational discussion with you, but it seems you don't have the ability to cognitively understand what I'm eluding to.

 

Also, I've been a member at two clubs already. So to say that I'm making assumptions about what true, private, country club culture is like - is incorrect.

 

Edit - six, not seven... genius.

[North Butte]

wrong thread

[dpb5031]

> @wkuo3 said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> >

> > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> >

> > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

>

> No Kidding ! Our Mobile + internet + cable + security subscription each year could easily pay for the golf and country club dues.

> Well, kids can not live without their internet and mobile service, even school will send out messages to their mobile numbers and most of the hme work have to be performed on the internet links.

> We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had broomed them into the good habits when they were young.

> Looking at some of the kids ( young men and ladies ) of our friends, basically they don't like exercise nor outdoor sports. To think how they will age with the future medical needs is beyond imagination.

> The game of golf needs commitment, of both time and financial resources. This can only be sustained with passion for the game. Younger geneation sneezed at hard working and commitment, heck, they don't even like marriage and children. They just want to enjoy life, the easy way like a boxed solution .

>

 

So true with regard to the outdoor play. If not an organized sports team or pre-planned "play dates," most kids wouldn't leave their computers and game consoles. So different than my generation. In my neighborhood, kids were ALWAYS outdoors. In fact, younger than high school, I can't remember even seeing the inside of most of my friend's homes. We weren't "allowed." I could bring as many kids home for lunch as I wanted,and mom would make sandwiches for us all, but we couldn't come in...had to eat on the screen porch...lol! Medically, I suspect the younger generations will be less likely to get melanoma, so they've got that going for them...

[jvincent]

> @Roody said:

> * No tee times. As the guy who was usually in charge of making the tee times for my foursome, it's rather nice to just be able to show up and go

 

I've seen a few people mention this. At our club, that would be total chaos. We have a fairly decent number of members and there's no way that would work during busy times like the weekend.

 

How many members do you have?

[Ferguson]

This is a discussion on the decline of country clubs and we've got a guy providing . > @wkuo3 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I was on the BOD at my club in NJ for 7 years. It was very challenging getting millennials not just to join, but to participate. Most wanted to join with a few friends, show up and play with those same guys every Sat morning, then retreat to the parking lot. They'd hit balls or practice on the putting green with their ear buds in, and their nose in their phone in between. Often no interaction or attempts to socialize and get involved in club games or other activities. Very different than when I first joined my club as a young guy in the mid 90s. I got involved from the get-go and had a blast.

>

>

> True as in every segment of the society, even at work place.

>

 

I am not a millenial but _to each his own._

 

Is it a requirement at your club that all members socialize before and after each round, or is it just your opinion that people should not only join a club but be forced into participating as a 7-year board member sees fit?

 

As a member of a club for nearly 15 years, I find myself playing with my sons more than others and I only play in the events I like. I also don't prefer to stand around and talk before a round. I like to clear my head from work related stuff, get warmed up and go play.

 

Re: behavior of the millenials stated in your post

 

Maybe they had others things to do after golf aside from sitting around telling war stories.

Maybe they liked playing with a familiar group and found that to be "enough" for what they wanted from golf.

Maybe they liked listening to music.

 

 

 

[North Butte]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > >

> > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > >

> > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> >

> > No Kidding ! Our Mobile + internet + cable + security subscription each year could easily pay for the golf and country club dues.

> > Well, kids can not live without their internet and mobile service, even school will send out messages to their mobile numbers and most of the hme work have to be performed on the internet links.

> > We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had broomed them into the good habits when they were young.

> > Looking at some of the kids ( young men and ladies ) of our friends, basically they don't like exercise nor outdoor sports. To think how they will age with the future medical needs is beyond imagination.

> > The game of golf needs commitment, of both time and financial resources. This can only be sustained with passion for the game. Younger geneation sneezed at hard working and commitment, heck, they don't even like marriage and children. They just want to enjoy life, the easy way like a boxed solution .

> >

>

> So true with regard to the outdoor play. If not an organized sports team or pre-planned "play dates," most kids wouldn't leave their computers and game consoles. So different than my generation. In my neighborhood, kids were ALWAYS outdoors. In fact, younger than high school, I can't remember even seeing the inside of most of my friend's homes. We weren't "allowed." I could bring as many kids home for lunch as I wanted,and mom would make sandwiches for us all, but we couldn't come in...had to eat on the screen porch...lol! Medically, I suspect the younger generations will be less likely to get melanoma, so they've got that going for them...

 

Most parents today are convinced if their kids are outdoors for even 30 seconds without an adult helicoptering over them, some villain will swoop in and abduct them. There are families with kids who live with eyesight, literally, of the elementary school in our neighborhood. I mean you can stand in front of the school and see the front porch of their houses. The parents put the kids in the SUV, drive one block and wait in line for 15-20 minutes so they can drop their kids off directly from the door of the car into the waiting supervision of a teacher on the sidewalk.

 

Half a century ago when I was growing up, any kids living within 1/4 mile of the school simply walked down the street and to the school. Usually with their mom standing on the porch watching but sometimes not even that. And I'm talking elementary age kids. By middle school, every kid in my neighborhood was walking nearly a mile THROUGH THE WOODS (shudder) back and forth every day. Even when it rained. It would never have occurred to my parents to worry about anything other than us getting hit by traffic on the one busy road we had to cross near the school.

 

Our afternoons were pretty simple. All the neighborhood kids would congregate around the basketball goal (which each of us had in our yard) and play pickup games until the street lights came on. That was the signal that it was time to go home. Or in the summer when the streetlights weren't on by supper time, one of the moms would stick her head out the window and yell "Suppertime!" and we'd head home.

 

[KMeloney]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

> >

> > Hold on... You get "looks" because these people know you're highly educated and in a white-collar job making $1MM+? How do they know all of those things just by you demoing a club?

> >

>

> In all fairness to @Hack Daddy, he said 6 figure income, not seven, and I'm pretty sure he was speaking from the perspective of being African American...something no one can fully understand unless they've walked a mile in his shoes.

>

> Let's not pretend that racism, bigotry, and discrimination dont exist. Sadly, our country hasn't made as much progress in that area as one would have hoped. Relative to this discussion however, those things exist pretty much everywhere, not just at private golf clubs. Again, the private clubs I've belonged to have been very "inclusive."

 

(Actually, he said "over" six figures. )

 

My point was that I doubt anyone who might have given him "looks" knew that he is well-educated, nor what he does and makes for a living. And if no one knew that, then those things are completely irrelevant in this discussion. And shouldn't they be irrelevant? Sure, there are plenty of clubs where that all matters. But at my club, for instance, it doesn't matter how much you make or how educated you are. That general mindset leads to a more relaxed atmosphere, which is something that most people there appreciate the most about the club. (Otherwise, there are other clubs with different reputations nearby that folks can join.)

 

I'm guessing that people gave him looks because of the color of his skin. If that's true, then that's the relevant part, and is something that more folks clearly need to get past/see beyond. One way that Hack could likely change people's views is by joining a club and being a member just like everyone else. Otherwise, the negative stereotype of club members gets perpetuated as kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

I'm friendly with the first (I think) African-American now at two of the top golf clubs in the area (which are also two of the top in the country). Now, sure, he can afford to be at these places, based on the nature of his business/expertise -- but he's just a great guy. I like to think that it's because he's a great guy that he's a member at these places (and that it does him a disservice to think it's because of something else). He and his proposer(s) could have just assumed that the memberships would be as bigoted and exclusionary as we've all been led to believe they are and not have bothered with the processes, and the results would have been twofold: 1) he'd have denied himself wonderful opportunities; and 2) he'd have fueled the notions that all of these golf clubs are old-world exclusionary.

 

Sometimes you have to give people the opportunity to do the right thing.

[smashdn]

> @thesamwise said:

> Respectfully, it seems that a lot of folks in this thread are missing the point when it comes to the financial aspect of this.

>

> "Americans born between 1981 and 1996 are financially outmatched by every generation since the Depression."

> does not mean that they are young now but will soon have as much as previous generations did as Jut suggests.

>

> It means that that generation has had less financial security/wealth at every step of the way and (given the trends) will continue this way. The data is crystal clear on this. I've never seen any reliable data to suggest that life is comparable for young folks (financially) as it was for the Boomer generation. Yes, those pesky, spoiled millenials might have a few more iPads ($500 each, maybe?) but when one considers the cost of housing (compare the cost of the first house you bought and the average house now and then see if the average real wage has increased enough to nullify the increased cost), college (how much did the average boomer pay to go to college?), medical care, etc, it's no surprise that country clubs are floundering. I'd argue that the me/now problem is as much of a problem for the older folks in the country club as it is for the people not interested in joining one.

>

I fall into that age bracket. 34 actually. Own my house (with mortgage), three vehicles (2 out of 3 paid for), three kids and I am the only one employed though my wife does do some side jobs/business here and there. She actually quit her job to stay home with our twins. Child care was such that it simply did not make sense for her to continue to work despite her making very good money (~80k but no benefits). I make less salary wise but also have all of the benefits so. Before having the twins we lived a very comfortable lifestyle but also worked very hard, both of worked close to 60 hours every week. We were living to work not working to live. Being away from home and our children that much it got very hard to justify golf on a Saturday or Sunday. Certainly could not justify a country club membership despite the one here in town being quite reasonable with very nice amenities and, from a removed perspective, a nice social culture.

 

We have drastically had to cut back on our expenses. Got rid of satellite tv. Don't have home internet aside from phones. No streaming tv services either. Some of the "nice to do" spends on our house we have hit pause on (no new deck, no redo of the landscaping, no building onto my shop). One thing I do insist on is paying into retirement. I simply will not let myself have to work until I am nearly dead. I want to enjoy a time when I do not HAVE to work and can still bodily go play golf, or go hunting and fishing on my own. I saw a grandfather literally work until he died from cancer. My father is heading that way, working until he does not physically have the ability, or the years left to enjoy not working.

 

My bills are mostly groceries, medical bills for three young kids, and stuff that runs the house (garbage collection, water, propane, electricity).

 

I wish I could spend $60 every weekend to travel for golf. As far as building wealth, it does not seem that even the 401k, the other investments are growing as though they used to in year's past.

 

 

[bobcat88]

31 year old single man here, and I was a member at a Country Club in my area that had full benefits with 2 other neighboring clubs that ran me $235 a month. It was a great introductory deal to get younger members, but after year 1 of the deal it went up to $450 and now $500 a month. The nicest courses around me are all public and between $50-$85 a round. Why wouldn't I just play them and save a couple hundred dollars a month?