Who was right, me or the ranger?

[zer0]

> @cmagnusson said:

> Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

>

> Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

>

> Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

>

> You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

>

> (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

 

Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

[cmagnusson]

> @zer0 said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> >

> > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> >

> > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> >

> > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> >

> > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

>

> Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

 

It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

 

I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

 

[golfortennis]

> @cmagnusson said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > >

> > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > >

> > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > >

> > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > >

> > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> >

> > Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

>

> It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

>

> I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

>

 

Please provide some aloe vera next time you burn him so thoroughly, ok?

[buckeyefl]

> @zer0 said:

> > @denkea said:

> > Consider this. If a myself and a friend (we both play very fast) and are on a 2 1/2 hour pace for 18, tee off in front of your group do you feel you should required to keep up?

>

> You wouldn't be at a 2.5 hour pace on a full golf course.

>

> The problem here is a lot of you are accepting the pace set by the course as reasonable when clearly it wasn't. The guy who posted that his course has a 3:45 pace, now that is a reasonable pace. Why should the course I played at have a pace of 4:20 ore 4:30? It's not some world beater course. And on top of that, I was playing in the morning when most of the tee times were permanent. Surely, those players don't need the same pace that the afternoon casual crowd gets, right? Common sense dictates that the regulars should be able to get around the course quicker than Joe Schmo. And that's exactly what was a happening. The other groups ahead of us were playing at a fast pace, well ahead of the arbitrary pace set by the golf course. Except for one 3some.

>

> Here is one take that hasn't been addressed....setting the pace at a large number allows the rangers/golf course to avoid having to address customer complaints about pace. "What are you talking about, the pace isn't slow, it's actually 15 minutes ahead of schedule." Which is exactly the line I got from the Ranger.

>

>

 

Nice conspiracy theory but you are still wrong. Also you might want to go back and read how long that course was with the slower time. 4:05-4:30 is completely normal and found all over the country. YOU might be able to play below that but YOU aren't the only one on the course.

As to your questioning a 2.5 hour pace, well you are wrong again so should you be forced to pick up to keep up? At one club I worked at we had a weekend group that played in 3 hours with 6-8 players and tens of thousands of dollars in the line. 7300 yards just in case you wondered. So, why is your group if 3-4 so slow?

[buckeyefl]

> @cmagnusson said:

> Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

>

> Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

>

> Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

>

> You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

>

> (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

 

Wrong. So many big brains with so little experience in the real world. The Ranger is doing it exactly the way it should be done. Playing through is rarely a solution which has already been covered here and elsewhere.

 

You really don't know what you are talking about when you say the solution is not asking someone to speed up. That's just ridiculous. If they are off pace and off time then that most certainly is the solution.

[buckeyefl]

> @zer0 said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> >

> > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> >

> > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> >

> > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> >

> > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

>

> Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

 

There was no problem you just didn't like it. You are following someone in the fast lane who is already speeding and demanding they go faster just so there's no one in front of you.

[zer0]

So I think we all agree that the problem here is the arbitrary POP numbers the course is using. It ties the course's hands when it comes to getting groups to pick up the pace cause, as you say, you can't admonish a customer for following your rules. Courses use that POP as a lazy way out of having to do their jobs.

[zer0]

> @cmagnusson said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > >

> > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > >

> > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > >

> > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > >

> > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> >

> > Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

>

> It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

>

> I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

>

 

This is nonsense. The group ahead of us was not playing fast enough, they were taking advantage of the course's ludicrous POP numbers and taking their sweet assed time to get from putting the pin back in to teeing off at the next hole.

 

As has been already proven in this thread, the notion of time-par is an arbitrary number that isn't really based on any scientific data and definitley doesn't take into account the time of day and the quality of golfers on the course. It's an inherently flawed system.

[buckeyefl]

> @zer0 said:

> So I think we all agree that the problem here is the arbitrary POP numbers the course is using. It ties the course's hands when it comes to getting groups to pick up the pace cause, as you say, you can't admonish a customer for following your rules. Courses use that POP as a lazy way out of having to do their jobs.

 

No its pretty clear that most agree that you are whining and in the wrong.

The numbers arent arbitrary,

it is helpful to the players and course,

you are just butthurt.

 

Maybe next time get the first tee time of the day. Problem solved.

 

Serious question, are you new to golf?

[cmagnusson]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> >

> > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> >

> > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> >

> > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> >

> > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

>

> Wrong. So many big brains with so little experience in the real world. The Ranger is doing it exactly the way it should be done. Playing through is rarely a solution which has already been covered here and elsewhere.

>

> You really don't know what you are talking about when you say the solution is not asking someone to speed up. That's just ridiculous. If they are off pace and off time then that most certainly is the solution.

 

Dude, I also said the Ranger was right. And I was talking about someone being off-pace but ON-time, which is what this situation is. You can't ask them to speed up if they're playing within your assigned speed, which you already agreed with in your postings. Not sure what the point of this reply was.

[cmagnusson]

> @zer0 said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > > @zer0 said:

> > > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > > >

> > > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > > >

> > > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > > >

> > > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > > >

> > > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> > >

> > > Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

> >

> > It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

> >

> > I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

> >

>

> This is nonsense. The group ahead of us was not playing fast enough, they were taking advantage of the course's ludicrous POP numbers and taking their sweet assed time to get from putting the pin back in to teeing off at the next hole.

>

> As has been already proven in this thread, the notion of time-par is an arbitrary number that isn't really based on any scientific data and definitley doesn't take into account the time of day and the quality of golfers on the course. It's an inherently flawed system.

 

You're the only person who has agreed it's arbitrary so far, so proven is a bit of a stretch.

[buckeyefl]

> @cmagnusson said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > >

> > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > >

> > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > >

> > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > >

> > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> >

> > Wrong. So many big brains with so little experience in the real world. The Ranger is doing it exactly the way it should be done. Playing through is rarely a solution which has already been covered here and elsewhere.

> >

 

> > You really don't know what you are talking about when you say the solution is not asking someone to speed up. That's just ridiculous. If they are off pace and off time then that most certainly is the solution.

>

> Dude, I also said the Ranger was right. And I was talking about someone being off-pace but ON-time, which is what this situation is. You can't ask them to speed up if they're playing within your assigned speed, which you already agreed with in your postings. Not sure what the point of this reply was.

 

This. He probably doing it exactly how he was told. Im not going to bother anyone and have someone play through if they are below pace. There are a few exceptions but usually Im not going to say anything. Groups playing through on a busy/full course is a nightmare. Everything else seems we are in agreement for the most part. I simply take exception to calling someone doing that crappy, thankless job a moron.

 

"(And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)"

[buckeyefl]

> @cmagnusson said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > > @zer0 said:

> > > > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > > > >

> > > > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > > > >

> > > > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > > > >

> > > > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> > > >

> > > > Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

> > >

> > > It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

> > >

> > > I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

> > >

> >

> > This is nonsense. The group ahead of us was not playing fast enough, they were taking advantage of the course's ludicrous POP numbers and taking their sweet assed time to get from putting the pin back in to teeing off at the next hole.

> >

> > As has been already proven in this thread, the notion of time-par is an arbitrary number that isn't really based on any scientific data and definitley doesn't take into account the time of day and the quality of golfers on the course. It's an inherently flawed system.

>

> You're the only person who has agreed it's arbitrary so far, so proven is a bit of a stretch.

 

> @zer0 said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > > @zer0 said:

> > > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > > >

> > > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > > >

> > > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > > >

> > > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > > >

> > > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> > >

> > > Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

> >

> > It is completely unreasonable to ask. The course sets a Time-Par. They play within the Time-Par. They are playing fast enough, even if they are not keeping pace. Think about it like this: You are essentially asking a course employee to admonish a patron of their business for following the rules. That is a ridiculous notion.

> >

> > I guarantee I play faster than you do, and if you were holding me up I'd be asking you directly to play through, I wouldn't be getting a ranger to tell you to change what you're doing to suit my needs. If you're talking about respect and courtesy, how about you show some to your fellow golfers that are probably trying to enjoy the only 4.5 hours they have each week without responsibilities to home, work, and family?

> >

>

> This is nonsense. The group ahead of us was not playing fast enough, they were taking advantage of the course's ludicrous POP numbers and taking their sweet assed time to get from putting the pin back in to teeing off at the next hole.

>

> As has been already proven in this thread, the notion of time-par is an arbitrary number that isn't really based on any scientific data and definitley doesn't take into account the time of day and the quality of golfers on the course. It's an inherently flawed system.

 

You are right. Maybe you should find a course where you get to set the pace. God help you when a faster group shows up and your personal rules twisting is used to give you an unwanted prostate exam.

[zer0]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @cmagnusson said:

> > > > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> > > >

> > > > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> > > >

> > > > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> > > >

> > > > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> > > >

> > > > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

> > >

> > > Wrong. So many big brains with so little experience in the real world. The Ranger is doing it exactly the way it should be done. Playing through is rarely a solution which has already been covered here and elsewhere.

> > >

>

> > > You really don't know what you are talking about when you say the solution is not asking someone to speed up. That's just ridiculous. If they are off pace and off time then that most certainly is the solution.

> >

> > Dude, I also said the Ranger was right. And I was talking about someone being off-pace but ON-time, which is what this situation is. You can't ask them to speed up if they're playing within your assigned speed, which you already agreed with in your postings. Not sure what the point of this reply was.

>

> This. He probably doing it exactly how he was told. Im not going to bother anyone and have someone play through if they are below pace. There are a few exceptions but usually Im not going to say anything. Groups playing through on a busy/full course is a nightmare. Everything else seems we are in agreement for the most part. I simply take exception to calling someone doing that crappy, thankless job a moron.

>

> "(And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)"

 

So don't call a Ranger a moron, but in the next sentence you agree that the Ranger was a moron who is bad at his job.

 

 

 

 

[zer0]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > So I think we all agree that the problem here is the arbitrary POP numbers the course is using. It ties the course's hands when it comes to getting groups to pick up the pace cause, as you say, you can't admonish a customer for following your rules. Courses use that POP as a lazy way out of having to do their jobs.

>

> No its pretty clear that most agree that you are whining and in the wrong.

> The numbers arent arbitrary,

> it is helpful to the players and course,

> you are just butthurt.

>

> Maybe next time get the first tee time of the day. Problem solved.

>

> Serious question, are you new to golf?

 

The numbers are arbitrary. They don't match up to the actual POP on the course (3some playing slow but still ahead of arbitrary POP set by course proves that). If the POP numbers were legit they would be fluid and reflect the many different variables that can affect POP on a course.

 

 

[DavePelz4]

In some situations, the course is setting a pace or time par beyond what should be reasonable to stop the complaints. They're not the only industry that does this...the airlines fixed their late arrival/departure time by baking extra time into the "flight." By extending the time out to well beyone normal taxi out/flying time/taxi in time and adding in some cases 45-60 minutes, they improve their "on time arrival" percentage and in some cases, they can now say it's an early departure or arrival. It's all about creating the perception.

 

BTW...Zer, where were you playing?

[North Butte]

I haven't read the entire chest-thumping thread but if a course states on their scorecard or signage that the expected pace of play is thus-and-so, then I'd have a hard time raising a stink about actually playing at that expected pace or a bit quicker. It might still feel slow but dang, you're getting just what it said on the tin!

[chippa13]

I always enjoy these threads where the OP is looking for validation and doesn't get it.

[buckeyefl]

> @zer0 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @zer0 said:

> > > So I think we all agree that the problem here is the arbitrary POP numbers the course is using. It ties the course's hands when it comes to getting groups to pick up the pace cause, as you say, you can't admonish a customer for following your rules. Courses use that POP as a lazy way out of having to do their jobs.

> >

> > No its pretty clear that most agree that you are whining and in the wrong.

> > The numbers arent arbitrary,

> > it is helpful to the players and course,

> > you are just butthurt.

> >

> > Maybe next time get the first tee time of the day. Problem solved.

> >

> > Serious question, are you new to golf?

>

> The numbers are arbitrary. They don't match up to the actual POP on the course (3some playing slow but still ahead of arbitrary POP set by course proves that). If the POP numbers were legit they would be fluid and reflect the many different variables that can affect POP on a course.

>

>

 

Mr. Spock would be ashamed.

[buckeyefl]

> @chippa13 said:

> I always enjoy these threads where the OP is looking for validation and doesn't get it.

 

Jump on board because this one should bring great joy.

[Roadking2003]

> @zer0 said:

> The problem here is a lot of you are accepting the pace set by the course as reasonable when clearly it wasn't.

 

At least by your standards. But lots of golfers think a 4:15 - 4:30 pace is reasonable.

[Big Ben]

If there is an entire hole open you should have every right to play through. If I’m not mistaken that’s outlined in the pace of place rules changes. The number of players has no bearing on this equation as well. Fine, they are on the course pace but the open hole changes things in my book.

[Vindog]

> @zer0 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @zer0 said:

> > > So I think we all agree that the problem here is the arbitrary POP numbers the course is using. It ties the course's hands when it comes to getting groups to pick up the pace cause, as you say, you can't admonish a customer for following your rules. Courses use that POP as a lazy way out of having to do their jobs.

> >

> > No its pretty clear that most agree that you are whining and in the wrong.

> > The numbers arent arbitrary,

> > it is helpful to the players and course,

> > you are just butthurt.

> >

> > Maybe next time get the first tee time of the day. Problem solved.

> >

> > Serious question, are you new to golf?

>

> The numbers are arbitrary. They don't match up to the actual POP on the course (3some playing slow but still ahead of arbitrary POP set by course proves that). If the POP numbers were legit they would be fluid and reflect the many different variables that can affect POP on a course.

>

>

 

Fluid as in changes by the day or might change for course condition? That's just not realistic. PoP guidelines are set leniently, yes. But they are set that way in the first place to reflect the many variables that can affect PoP on a course.

 

I've seen as low as 3:45, and I've seen as much as 4:45, but that's only what I've seen.

[Vindog]

 

not sure what the deal is but this formatted all buggy.

 

disregard

[tatertot]

According to the USGA, you were correct and you had every right to ask.

 

But, the ranger works for the course, and they get to make their own rules.

 

So everybody was.

[Carl Spackler3]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @"Carl Spackler3" said:

> > Golf should be played as quickly as can enable a fair and enjoyable round. Courses should not have a pace on paper. I hate hearing we’re not slow when there are gaps ahead of our group. Thus my leaving those groups. My vote is for the Op over the ranger

>

> So if the group in front of you is playing a 2:15 round you should be told you are out of position because you aren't keeping up? It doesn't work that way in the real world and it shouldn't. Course pace is there to protect everyone.

I concede in your extreme example, I’m pretty sure my point is there

 

[buckeyefl]

> @"Carl Spackler3" said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @"Carl Spackler3" said:

> > > Golf should be played as quickly as can enable a fair and enjoyable round. Courses should not have a pace on paper. I hate hearing we’re not slow when there are gaps ahead of our group. Thus my leaving those groups. My vote is for the Op over the ranger

> >

> > So if the group in front of you is playing a 2:15 round you should be told you are out of position because you aren't keeping up? It doesn't work that way in the real world and it shouldn't. Course pace is there to protect everyone.

> I concede in your extreme example, I’m pretty sure my point is there

>

 

As is mine based on years of experience on both ends.

[zer0]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> In some situations, the course is setting a pace or time par beyond what should be reasonable to stop the complaints. They're not the only industry that does this...the airlines fixed their late arrival/departure time by baking extra time into the "flight." By extending the time out to well beyone normal taxi out/flying time/taxi in time and adding in some cases 45-60 minutes, they improve their "on time arrival" percentage and in some cases, they can now say it's an early departure or arrival. It's all about creating the perception.

>

> BTW...Zer, where were you playing?

 

Glencoe.

[larrybud]

> That seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse? Why is 4.5 hours the accepted pace anyway?

It's not necessarily an "arbitrary number"

 

https://www.ngcoa1.org/images/ngcoa/Pace_of_Play.pdf

 

see page 31.

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @larrybud said:

> > That seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse? Why is 4.5 hours the accepted pace anyway?

> It's not necessarily an "arbitrary number"

>

> https://www.ngcoa1.org/images/ngcoa/Pace_of_Play.pdf

>

> see page 31.

>

>

 

Wonderful link. Everyone on this thread should read the entire document.

 

Thanks for posting.