Who was right, me or the ranger?

[Noles]

Sometimes rangers and pros need to use a little bit of discretion in addition to just following the letter of their rule. Two examples I recently dealt with on this issue:

1) Last week my son was playing in a 2 day junior event. The group in front of him had 2 known slow players. By hole 6 they had a hole open in front of them and groups were waiting behind. I asked one of the tournament officials to ask them to speed up but he said he cannot warn them until they are more than 10 minutes behind pace. We waited behind them all day. By the time we got to the 16th green the slow group in front was still on the 17th tee and the group in front of them was walking off the 18th green. That group may not have been able to be officially warned, but they should have been told to pick up the pace.

2) I was playing in the final group of my club's 2 day member-member. On the 9th hole on day 2 we were waiting for the group to clear so that we could tee off. Two people in our group ended up having to hit provisional balls and we spent time searching for both balls, finding only one. We finish the hole and the head pro comes on to the green to inform us that we are officially being warned for being out of position. I explained to him about waiting on the tee and then having to look for 2 balls but he said we finished 16 minutes after the group in front of us and that puts us out of position. I then look ahead and the group in front of us is still standing on the 10th tee and is waiting for the fairway to clear. Now I am pissed. I again asked how we could be out of position when the group in front is right there? He just repeated that that is how the policy is written and he had to issue the warning.

 

Just consider the situations and use common sense if you are a pro/ranger/official.

[umassgolfer]

OP - Should have posted this from the POV of the group in front. Then you'd get some support :wink:

 

I think what course's "pace" was and how it was set are important. Was it rated, or just "4.5 hours should be right"? Not that you have any way of knowing that... In general I appreciate courses that have PoP if it is done right, because in my congested metro area without that, it is way more common to play a 5 hour round than a 4 hour and setting PoP gives the course something to point to to speed groups up/ask them to pick up.

 

But I think a little situational awareness is required. On a quicker day, I feel a marshal asking a group to be aware of their actions is reasonable, but a marshal straight up saying "play faster" would throw me off my game no matter what, and would tick me off if we were "on time".

[buckeyefl]

Rules are rules. Sometimes they seem dumb but the pro and official have to follow them. I give credit to both of them for even bothering to monitor POP because far too many don't. I had to tell a tournament director that if he didn't get out on the course and police his people then I would and he would probably end up losing players in his pay to play league. We had tee times planned behind them ( with a generous buffer) Andi wasn't going to have them waiting while his people played (literally) six hour rounds and he sat in the AC.

[zer0]

> @buckeyefl said:

>** Rules are rules.** Sometimes they seem dumb but the pro and official have to follow them. I give credit to both of them for even bothering to monitor POP because far too many don't. I had to tell a tournament director that if he didn't get out on the course and police his people then I would and he would probably end up losing players in his pay to play league. We had tee times planned behind them ( with a generous buffer) Andi wasn't going to have them waiting while his people played (literally) six hour rounds and he sat in the AC.

 

I hate when people say shit like that, "rules are rules". Rules and even laws get changed all the time because they prove ineffectual in practice. Try using your brain and think about the issue and maybe you'll come up with a better solution to the problem rather than just being the mindless sheep that you are. Gotta get in line and follow the rules like the rest of the sheep! bahhhhh

 

 

[Warrior42111]

IMO, this is a tough decision for the ranger. You noted you were on hole 14, would making them stop and you play through cause even more of a back up those last 4 holes for everyone else behind you? If it was on the front nine it would make sense since there's time to stagger the group back after a few holes.

[zer0]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> IMO, this is a tough decision for the ranger. You noted you were on hole 14, would making them stop and you play through cause even more of a back up those last 4 holes for everyone else behind you? If it was on the front nine it would make sense since there's time to stagger the group back after a few holes.

 

Stop misrepresenting the facts. For the 100th time, I NEVER ASKED TO PLAY THROUGH. Just asked the ranger to go give them a friendly talking to about trying to speed up. This group would literally sit on the tee box chatting it up for 5 minutes before anyuone stuck a tee in the ground. No reason a ranger couldn't go over to them and ask them in a friendly manner to make an effort to speed up their play.

[North Butte]

No reason except he would be pissing them off by asking them to speed up when they were already comfortably ahead of the course's posted expected pace of play.

 

I can't imagine any golf course having the chutzpah to tell everyone on the first tee "Keep it under 4-1/2 hours" and then send a ranger to tell them to get a move on when they're playing at a 4-hour pace.

[zer0]

> @"North Butte" said:

> No reason except he would be pissing them off by asking them to speed up when they were already comfortably ahead of the course's posted expected pace of play.

>

> I can't imagine any golf course having the chutzpah to tell everyone on the first tee "Keep it under 4-1/2 hours" and then send a ranger to tell them to get a move on when they're playing at a 4-hour pace.

 

so in other words, you haven't read the other posts in this thread.

 

 

[North Butte]

Sure I have. Been here since the beginning. And you simply will not let go of the idea that a ranger ought to go tell those guys to speed up. When it ain't gonna happen in a million years at any course.

[ldandrea]

Paying at the end of the round would fix all of this! They should charge golf like bowling. Pay by the hour people would stop playing slow if there was a cost involved. I’m a firm believer that slow play has nothing to do with skill.

[Warrior42111]

> @ldandrea said:

> Paying at the end of the round would fix all of this! They should charge golf like bowling. Pay by the hour people would stop playing slow if there was a cost involved. I’m a firm believer that slow play has nothing to do with skill.

 

How this work if some group in front is taking their time not caring, as the rest of us rack up the bill with them?

[chippa13]

Nice to see zerO is still charging that machine gun nest with a plastic spork.

[ldandrea]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> > @ldandrea said:

> > Paying at the end of the round would fix all of this! They should charge golf like bowling. Pay by the hour people would stop playing slow if there was a cost involved. I’m a firm believer that slow play has nothing to do with skill.

>

> How this work if some group in front is taking their time not caring, as the rest of us rack up the bill with them?

Groups would be forced to let you play through.

[ArtMBgolf]

OP is probably a fast group, waiting on a group that is ahead of pace, not that 4.5 hours is fast.

Being under pace, I agree that the ranger doesn't need to ask them to play faster, But if there are

more than 1 holes open in front of them, it would be Reasonable for a Ranger to tell that group he is

allowing you to play through.

It's common sense etiquette for the ranger to let you through, if it makes sense to do it, with holes open. This was the 14th hole, but what if it's only the 6th or 9th hole and only a couple groups are on the course.

[BermBuster]

> @chippa13 said:

> Nice to see zerO is still charging that machine gun nest with a plastic spork.

 

Spork? or Fpoon....

[1Mordrid1]

> @zer0 said:

> > @cmagnusson said:

> > Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

> >

> > Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

> >

> > Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

> >

> > You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

> >

> > (And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)

>

> Interesting post. Only thing I would disagree with is the part about not asking the slow group to play faster. I watched them, they could've easily played faster. They would routinely take a very long time to hit balls on the tee box. Lots of conversation around the tee box without anyone making an effort to go up there and hit. If they would've just sped that up it would've solved all the problems. Is it too much to ask a Ranger to politely encourage them to make a better effort to be courtious and respectful of the other golfers on the course and to speed up their play when it came to leaving one green and teeing off at the next tee box? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

 

Maybe they play golf to enjoy the social aspect of it. As long as they are doing so within the rules set by the golf course, it should not be an issue. Maybe speed golf is not as enjoyable to them.

 

Maybe in their eyes you bugging the ranger to ask them to speed up to your standards rather than the course standards is rude and discourteous.

[llewol007]

Same thing happened on a round I was involved in. You are pulling your hair out through out the hole round only to find out the group is playing on pace. Like some others have stated, if the ranger gauged their pace and said it is within acceptable pace, then you will be out of luck. Does that help you, no but it is what it is.

[caniac6]

The more I think about it, a timed pace of play is a good guldeline, but if a group is a hole behind on a packed course, they are out of position, and at least, should be given a friendly "pick up the pace, please". Especially if they are spending time chatting on the tee rather than playing. I'm not sure being on the pre determined POP is an excuse for goofing off rather than keeping up.

[zer0]

> @caniac6 said:

> The more I think about it, a timed pace of play is a good guldeline, but if a group is a hole behind on a packed course, they are out of position, and at least, should be given a friendly "pick up the pace, please". Especially if they are spending time chatting on the tee rather than playing. I'm not sure being on the pre determined POP is an excuse for goofing off rather than keeping up.

 

Finally, a post that sums it all up. There really is no other correct way to look at this. Even the WRX Rules of Golf Nazi's that populate this sub-forum don't have a reasonable rebuttal.

 

 

FYI, played this weekend again on a packed course and it was going a little slow, but not tremendously slow. Ranger came up to us unsolicited and said there was a 4 some a few groups up who was playing a little slow and he encouraged them to speed it up. Then he was going to every group behind them and explaining that and saying that he hopes that bit of encouragement would speed things up for everyone behind them.

 

 

[Vespar]

We have some holes through out the round that are log jams at our club. One hole typically plays very slow getting on the green and putting on the green. It plays very tough and the next allows you to spray a driver. Meaning the group could be playing up to the group in front of them and for a brief time appear that they have one hole open.

[MountainKing]

The one thing I'm confused about in all of these pace of play posts, since when did a 3 1/2-4 hour round of golf become "speed golf"?

 

Maybe my thinking needs to change with the modern crowd, when I was taught the game as a junior golfer I was taught if you're a hole behind then you're out of position, that's also how courses operated. It was that way around here through the 90's, rangers would be on you to pick it up. I guess the guys who took golf up because of Tiger changed it all......

[Warrior42111]

I think we really try to over complicate everything. If there's a faster group AND a hole open in front let them play through unless it's the last couple holes.

[7ironDave]

Need some input. Like the tittle days, who was right.

Playing 9 at local course, short course.

We tee off as a 4some, me and my buddy got paired up. Next group is already in second fairway as we tee off. We catch them when we hit 3rd t box, they are all over the fairway, not good golfers but looks like they are having fun.

We wait on every hole after that. On 6th hole I topped a drive and was about 230 to the green, group ahead was on the green, ranger (new guy) pulls up and says go on hit. I say I may hit the green, he says again hit. Well I pure a 4 iron and it’s tracking right at them, I yell fore and it lands on the front edge. Felt like an ass. Apologize to them when we get up there and they didn’t care they thought it was s great shot.

On to 8th hole, 285 down hill par 4. I’ve hit the green and gone over the green numerous times here, so has 2 of the other guys we are with, if you get the right kick it’s pretty easy to do. The ranger is stalking us as we wait to see them to make sure it is safe to hit, you cannot see the green from the t and you have to walk back towards the t box to get in your cart so you really are in the danger zone.

After we hit, me just short of the green where carts are usually parked, others close enough where it made sense to wait, the ranger makes a bee line to my cart yelling “what the hell where you guys waiting for to tee off”. I try to explain that the green is drivable and we were waiting for an all clear indication, ranger never waived us up indicating it was clear. Guy BLOWS up, yelling that we are holding the course up. I lose my mind and give him the business and explain why we waited and point out that if anyone is holding the course up it is the group in front of us that we have been waiting for ALL around.

We see the group ahead of us at the clubhouse and they ask what was going on as they heard the yelling and we explain. They said the ranger never spoke to them about picking up the pace and they admitted they were most definitely the problem.

 

Rant over.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @7ironDave said:

> Need some input. Like the tittle days, who was right.

> Playing 9 at local course, short course.

> We tee off as a 4some, me and my buddy got paired up. Next group is already in second fairway as we tee off. We catch them when we hit 3rd t box, they are all over the fairway, not good golfers but looks like they are having fun.

> We wait on every hole after that. On 6th hole I topped a drive and was about 230 to the green, group ahead was on the green, ranger (new guy) pulls up and says go on hit. I say I may hit the green, he says again hit. Well I pure a 4 iron and it’s tracking right at them, I yell fore and it lands on the front edge. Felt like an ****. Apologize to them when we get up there and they didn’t care they thought it was s great shot.

> On to 8th hole, 285 down hill par 4. I’ve hit the green and gone over the green numerous times here, so has 2 of the other guys we are with, if you get the right kick it’s pretty easy to do. The ranger is stalking us as we wait to see them to make sure it is safe to hit, you cannot see the green from the t and you have to walk back towards the t box to get in your cart so you really are in the danger zone.

> After we hit, me just short of the green where carts are usually parked, others close enough where it made sense to wait, the ranger makes a bee line to my cart yelling “what the **** where you guys waiting for to tee off”. I try to explain that the green is drivable and we were waiting for an all clear indication, ranger never waived us up indicating it was clear. Guy BLOWS up, yelling that we are holding the course up. I lose my mind and give him the business and explain why we waited and point out that if anyone is holding the course up it is the group in front of us that we have been waiting for ALL around.

> We see the group ahead of us at the clubhouse and they ask what was going on as they heard the yelling and we explain. They said the ranger never spoke to them about picking up the pace and they admitted they were most definitely the problem.

>

> Rant over.

 

Conclusion: Ranger is an idiot.

[Roadking2003]

> @caniac6 said:

> The more I think about it, a timed pace of play is a good guldeline, but if a group is a hole behind on a packed course, they are out of position, and at least, should be given a friendly "pick up the pace, please". Especially if they are spending time chatting on the tee rather than playing. I'm not sure being on the pre determined POP is an excuse for goofing off rather than keeping up.

 

The reason courses have a POP is because that's the speed which is appropriate for their course. Asking a group to pick up the pace when they are on pace is ridiculous. I've never seen anybody purposely chat on the tee to slow down to pace.

 

BTW, golf is a social game, not a footrace.

[Roadking2003]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> I think we really try to over complicate everything. If there's a faster group AND a hole open in front let them play through unless it's the last couple holes.

 

Not quite. Groups don't play at a steady pace. One open hole could close in just a few minutes. It's much more complicated than just "let them play through".

[Shipwreck]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Warrior42111 said:

> > I think we really try to over complicate everything. If there's a faster group AND a hole open in front let them play through unless it's the last couple holes.

>

> Not quite. Groups don't play at a steady pace. One open hole could close in just a few minutes. It's much more complicated than just "let them play through".

 

Exactly. A couple lost balls or penalty shots can easily take a group “out of position”. Or the group ahead of you can be a quick 3 some of players. Now if a group is consistently 1+ holes ahead, yes let another group play through.

[caniac6]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > The more I think about it, a timed pace of play is a good guldeline, but if a group is a hole behind on a packed course, they are out of position, and at least, should be given a friendly "pick up the pace, please". Especially if they are spending time chatting on the tee rather than playing. I'm not sure being on the pre determined POP is an excuse for goofing off rather than keeping up.

>

> The reason courses have a POP is because that's the speed which is appropriate for their course. Asking a group to pick up the pace when they are on pace is ridiculous. I've never seen anybody purposely chat on the tee to slow down to pace.

>

> BTW, golf is a social game, not a footrace.

 

If you are standing on the tee talking rather than playing with a hole open, regardless of POP, and you are holding up the group behind, that is a problem. That group needs to pick it up, and try to close the gap. At that point, if they want to be social, they should go to Starbucks.

[QEight]

> @Shipwreck said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Warrior42111 said:

> > > I think we really try to over complicate everything. If there's a faster group AND a hole open in front let them play through unless it's the last couple holes.

> >

> > Not quite. Groups don't play at a steady pace. One open hole could close in just a few minutes. It's much more complicated than just "let them play through".

>

> Exactly. A couple lost balls or penalty shots can easily take a group “out of position”. Or the group ahead of you can be a quick 3 some of players. Now if a group is consistently 1+ holes ahead, yes let another group play through.

 

But after searching the ball and losing your position, you better catch up and try to make up some of the lost time.

[Shipwreck]

> @QEight said:

> > @Shipwreck said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @Warrior42111 said:

> > > > I think we really try to over complicate everything. If there's a faster group AND a hole open in front let them play through unless it's the last couple holes.

> > >

> > > Not quite. Groups don't play at a steady pace. One open hole could close in just a few minutes. It's much more complicated than just "let them play through".

> >

> > Exactly. A couple lost balls or penalty shots can easily take a group “out of position”. Or the group ahead of you can be a quick 3 some of players. Now if a group is consistently 1+ holes ahead, yes let another group play through.

>

> But after searching the ball and losing your position, you better catch up and try to make up some of the lost time.

 

I completely agree. There’s much more to a golf story than just a simple “oh that group is out of position, we should be able to skip ahead”.