Who was right, me or the ranger?

[zer0]

> @larrybud said:

> > That seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse? Why is 4.5 hours the accepted pace anyway?

> It's not necessarily an "arbitrary number"

>

> https://www.ngcoa1.org/images/ngcoa/Pace_of_Play.pdf

>

> see page 31.

>

>

 

Thanks for posting! I don't agree with this part, I think they're missing a key variable. They aren't accounting for the level of golfer on the course. If you're playing early in the morning on a course full of permanent tee times there is a good chance those players will get around the course faster than a course full of casual players playing mid-day on a Saturday. Relying solely on the POP number disregards the human and common sense element of pace of play.

 

_When a course is offi cially pace rated, course managers receive a pace rating for the course, that is, the time it should take to play 18 holes when the course is playing to capacity. This pace rating is the sum of eighteen individual “time pars,” one for each hole. Each hole’s time par tells how long it should take to play that hole, an objectively determined time that accounts for the playing length (length time) of the hole, the unique obstacles on that hole (obstacle time), and the distance from each green to the next tee (green to tee distance time). Also considered is whether carts are restricted to the cart paths or given access to the fairways._

[North Butte]

You don't have to agree with how they come with their posted time expectation. You only have to decide if you're willing to play at that pace. It's not a negotiation.

 

If a course posts some number, like 4:15 or whatever, and tells everyone that is the expectation why on earth would you show up and try to demand to play half an hour faster than that?

 

It's like being told to tee off on the 10th hole and deciding you're just to walk up on the 1st tee and play away no matter what they say. Remarkable that you persist in believing you were somehow wronged here.

[zer0]

We're all being wronged by this clearly fautly system these courses are using as a veil to hide behind.

[North Butte]

File a class action suit. Let us know how that works out for you.

[caniac6]

If that's their policy, the Ranger was right.> @zer0 said:

> We're all being wronged by this clearly fautly system these courses are using as a veil to hide behind.

 

Mabye they are just trying to let know what to expect. I would think most folks would be thrilled to know that they would be getting around a busy course on a weekend in 4.5 hours or less. Now that you know their policy, it's up to you whether you go back. You are the consumer. If you don't like the way they do business, don't play there. You said the course was full, so I guess you were the only one that had an issue.

[larrybud]

> Thanks for posting! I don't agree with this part, I think they're missing a key variable. They aren't accounting for the level of golfer on the course.

 

You can agree or not. This guy has revolutionized pace of play at a number of courses. His methods work.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter on the level of golfer since the majority of slow play is management and course setup, and not player infused. I think we've all played with fast crappy golfers and slow good golfers, so level is meaningless.

 

[golfandfishing]

“doesn't matter on the level of golfer since the majority of slow play is management and course setup, ”

 

Slow golfers are slow golfers. Put a slow golfer on what could be considered an ideal set up at a perfectly managed course and guess what ....... that golfer is going to be slow. Put him in a group with his slow buddies and you have a back up. Slow play is a culture, and the folks that subscribe to that culture are clueless about their membership status.

[Roadking2003]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “doesn't matter on the level of golfer since the majority of slow play is management and course setup, ”

>

> Slow golfers are slow golfers. Put a slow golfer on what could be considered an ideal set up at a perfectly managed course and guess what ....... that golfer is going to be slow. Put him in a group with his slow buddies and you have a back up. Slow play is a culture, and the folks that subscribe to that culture are clueless about their membership status.

 

Until a course ranger that has some authority shows up.

[golfandfishing]

You are gonna be waiting a long time for that.......

 

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > “doesn't matter on the level of golfer since the majority of slow play is management and course setup, ”

> >

> > Slow golfers are slow golfers. Put a slow golfer on what could be considered an ideal set up at a perfectly managed course and guess what ....... that golfer is going to be slow. Put him in a group with his slow buddies and you have a back up. Slow play is a culture, and the folks that subscribe to that culture are clueless about their membership status.

>

> Until a course ranger that has some authority shows up.

 

 

[North Butte]

I've only been playing golf 25 years but I've never seen a course actually boot someone off for playing too slowly. Unless you're willing to that it's pretty much just persuasion and/or bluffing.

[buckeyefl]

> @zer0 said:

> We're all being wronged by this clearly fautly system these courses are using as a veil to hide behind.

 

Just stop trolling.

[buckeyefl]

> @"North Butte" said:

> I've only been playing golf 25 years but I've never seen a course actually boot someone off for playing too slowly. Unless you're willing to that it's pretty much just persuasion and/or bluffing.

 

I had someone try to call my bluff on that with " Who's going to remove us? You?" Followed by a laugh.

 

I explained to him that he wasn't going to hear from me again or see me again as he had been told what his options were and one of those was to be removed. I explained that the next person he would talk to if he didn't cooperate would be wearing a badge. I wasn't bluffing and he fell in line and all was eventually well.

[hacker49]

If your course has a pace of play and the group was under that pace then the ranger was right not to ask them to speed up. Like others have suggested he could have suggested to the group to let you play through. For me as long as the group is playing ready ball I have no problem waiting on them.

 

Today I played with my Dad. We weren't held up too much by other groups and two groups let us play through. It wasn't until about the last four holes or so that we were held up by a group but they were being held up by the group in front of them. No idea if that first group we could see was slow or if the course was full ahead of them. In all we played our round in 3:40 according to my GPS. We probably played closer to 3:30 since I started my GPS when we got to the course and I got my stuff all ready. Normally when we play with his regular golf friend it takes about 4:30. His friend is a slower player. Part of that is he doesn't hit it far but he's also not the most mobile guy.

 

Like I said in another recent post, I see the pace of play issue as a societal one and not a golf one. As I remember the pace of play is the same as when I played back in college and when I was in the military. But today's society wants everything quicker, faster and easier. Some of this is the course's fault because they are trying to pack in more tee times. I'm not sure if this is true because I don't know how far apart tee times were back say 20yrs ago vs now but it definitely feels more crowded on popular courses at prime times/days.

[Moo]

I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @Moo said:

> I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

 

Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @"North Butte" said:

> I've only been playing golf 25 years but I've never seen a course actually boot someone off for playing too slowly. Unless you're willing to that it's pretty much just persuasion and/or bluffing.

 

I've seen them make a group skip a hole.

[Moo]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @Moo said:

> > I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> > If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

>

> Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

>

>

 

Correct. Golf is a game of rules. If the course says you get 2:15 a side and you are on pace, the course won't just arbitrarily decide to push a group at pace to play faster just because someone behind is even faster.

The two courses I ranger at have slightly different policies and practices. Goal number 1 at both is to get everyone in at pace. Goal number 2 is to improve pace of play when possible, and without offending or alienating any golfers. If there is a faster group and there are gaps ahead, I may ask a group if the group behind can play through. If they say no, I do not push it. I do this often during the week. But, when the course is fairly stacked, it will actually play faster is no groups play through and everyone keeps pace.

Managing league play is a different topic altogether, and we use a card system with a start and finish time. The amazing thing about this system is that about 99% of the players will self-police their time and beat the 2:15 time for 9 holes. It actually becomes a pride thing to NOT be the group that creates delay.

 

With all that said, if your group is behind (and trust me, I know to the minute the pace of every group on my nine...it's a bit more difficult when I have to cover all 18, but I radio in for a cart time in that case), and you do not heed my friendly instruction to pick up the pace, I will bump you a hole. I hate doing it, but it does happen sometimes with very low skill golfers or clowns.

 

 

[Shipwreck]

I can remember something happening to me in this similar fashion, but the opposite. We were a 4 some and the 3 some ahead of us just took off like greased lightning. We didn’t see a group behind us (except maybe on the occasional tee box while we are putting out) yet the marshal was a complete D Wad and kept on us about “keeping up pace with the now phantom group ahead”.

 

Quick question though to the OP. You said that y’all were waiting on every shot on the 14th, did this also affect the group behind you, so on and so forth? Or was there ample room between you and the group behind? Because maybe you guys just played a bit quicker and were ahead of pace by quite a bit, so it just seems that the 3some is molasses slow.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @Moo said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @Moo said:

> > > I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> > > If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

> >

> > Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

> >

> >

>

> Correct. Golf is a game of rules. If the course says you get 2:15 a side and you are on pace, the course won't just arbitrarily decide to push a group at pace to play faster just because someone behind is even faster.

> The two courses I ranger at have slightly different policies and practices. Goal number 1 at both is to get everyone in at pace. Goal number 2 is to improve pace of play when possible, and without offending or alienating any golfers. If there is a faster group and there are gaps ahead, I may ask a group if the group behind can play through. If they say no, I do not push it. I do this often during the week. But, when the course is fairly stacked, it will actually play faster is no groups play through and everyone keeps pace.

> Managing league play is a different topic altogether, and we use a card system with a start and finish time. The amazing thing about this system is that about 99% of the players will self-police their time and beat the 2:15 time for 9 holes. It actually becomes a pride thing to NOT be the group that creates delay.

>

> With all that said, if your group is behind (and trust me, I know to the minute the pace of every group on my nine...it's a bit more difficult when I have to cover all 18, but I radio in for a cart time in that case), and you do not heed my friendly instruction to pick up the pace, I will bump you a hole. I hate doing it, but it does happen sometimes with very low skill golfers or clowns.

>

>

 

Which still emphasizes the point that having, and strictly adhering to, a set POP time gives some people an excuse to not allow faster players to play through.

 

POP policy is good thing when used in conjunction with common sense in regard to etiquette. I’m by no means advocating for letting or making a group let another play through if there really isn’t room. Or as RoadKing says, if it’s very late in the round. Common sense in play again. I’m simply referencing the statement, and almost everyone here has heard it it, from the actual group or the ranger, “they/we’re on the established POP so you can’t go through”. Even when there is ample room for to happen easily.

 

POP policies put a maximum limit out there. If there are two or three groups that are faster than then that group, if they get the opportunity to move throug and finish earlier it could possibly create some cushion later in the day. Adhere to that policy of no one going through a group because they are on pace and the only thing there guaranteed from that point on course will fall behind pace. Because there is 0% chance every following group is going to stay on pace.

 

But it is still nice to hear of a course that does monitor it closely like you do. And actually really does act on it. I’m sure it runs a lot smoother than most normal courses.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Moo said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @Moo said:

> > > I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> > > If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

> >

> > Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

> >

> >

>

> Correct. Golf is a game of rules. If the course says you get 2:15 a side and you are on pace, the course won't just arbitrarily decide to push a group at pace to play faster just because someone behind is even faster.

> The two courses I ranger at have slightly different policies and practices. Goal number 1 at both is to get everyone in at pace. Goal number 2 is to improve pace of play when possible, and without offending or alienating any golfers. If there is a faster group and there are gaps ahead, I may ask a group if the group behind can play through. If they say no, I do not push it. I do this often during the week. But, when the course is fairly stacked, it will actually play faster is no groups play through and everyone keeps pace.

> Managing league play is a different topic altogether, and we use a card system with a start and finish time. The amazing thing about this system is that about 99% of the players will self-police their time and beat the 2:15 time for 9 holes. It actually becomes a pride thing to NOT be the group that creates delay.

>

> With all that said, if your group is behind (and trust me, I know to the minute the pace of every group on my nine...it's a bit more difficult when I have to cover all 18, but I radio in for a cart time in that case), and you do not heed my friendly instruction to pick up the pace, I will bump you a hole. I hate doing it, but it does happen sometimes with very low skill golfers or clowns.

>

>

 

I'd enjoy playing golf at a course managed like yours. I really like the time card idea for leagues.

[Moo]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @Moo said:

> > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > > @Moo said:

> > > > I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> > > > If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

> > >

> > > Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Correct. Golf is a game of rules. If the course says you get 2:15 a side and you are on pace, the course won't just arbitrarily decide to push a group at pace to play faster just because someone behind is even faster.

> > The two courses I ranger at have slightly different policies and practices. Goal number 1 at both is to get everyone in at pace. Goal number 2 is to improve pace of play when possible, and without offending or alienating any golfers. If there is a faster group and there are gaps ahead, I may ask a group if the group behind can play through. If they say no, I do not push it. I do this often during the week. But, when the course is fairly stacked, it will actually play faster is no groups play through and everyone keeps pace.

> > Managing league play is a different topic altogether, and we use a card system with a start and finish time. The amazing thing about this system is that about 99% of the players will self-police their time and beat the 2:15 time for 9 holes. It actually becomes a pride thing to NOT be the group that creates delay.

> >

> > With all that said, if your group is behind (and trust me, I know to the minute the pace of every group on my nine...it's a bit more difficult when I have to cover all 18, but I radio in for a cart time in that case), and you do not heed my friendly instruction to pick up the pace, I will bump you a hole. I hate doing it, but it does happen sometimes with very low skill golfers or clowns.

> >

> >

>

> Which still emphasizes the point that having, and strictly adhering to, a set POP time gives some people an excuse to not allow faster players to play through.

>

> POP policy is good thing when used in conjunction with common sense in regard to etiquette. I’m by no means advocating for letting or making a group let another play through if there really isn’t room. Or as RoadKing says, if it’s very late in the round. Common sense in play again. I’m simply referencing the statement, and almost everyone here has heard it it, from the actual group or the ranger, “they/we’re on the established POP so you can’t go through”. Even when there is ample room for to happen easily.

>

> POP policies put a maximum limit out there. If there are two or three groups that are faster than then that group, if they get the opportunity to move throug and finish earlier it could possibly create some cushion later in the day. Adhere to that policy of no one going through a group because they are on pace and the only thing there guaranteed from that point on course will fall behind pace. Because there is 0% chance every following group is going to stay on pace.

>

> But it is still nice to hear of a course that does monitor it closely like you do. And actually really does act on it. I’m sure it runs a lot smoother than most normal courses.

>

 

I'm in agreement with your sentiment. I would love to give every group the opportunity to play as quickly as they want. But, in practice it's difficult to do without creating more, "domino" effect. If the course is wide open and there are few groups, the slower group, even if they are on pace, will usually let the faster group play through.

So maybe I don't agree with this rangers hardline stance or the way he presented it, but I get where he is coming from.

 

There are several types of rangers. There are the ones that appreciate getting lots of free golf for a small investment of their time. They are golfers and understand that everyone wants to play at a reasonable pace and they are watching and trying to prevent the bottlenecks. Then there are the rangers that more or less just show up. They are the ones that say, "there is nothing we could do" when the domino backups happen. I don't have a lot of respect for that type of ranger and everyone knows who they are and what to expect when they are on the job. Sometimes the rangers themselves allow the chaos to happen, and that is rather embarrassing.

[MountainKing]

I'm on board with the OP on this one. If you're a hole behind, you're behind. This is how backups start and screw the pace up for the rest of the day. It doesn't really matter what any of us think, none of these courses do anything about it. I've been on plenty of courses where a ranger said the "slow" group was on pace and you know darn well they aren't, sure enough 5 hours later and lots of watching the grass grow you're finally done. The time thing is dumb and should only apply when the course is empty.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @Moo said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @Moo said:

> > > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > > > @Moo said:

> > > > > I ranger at two courses. All the time I hear, "can you speed those guys up". Usually I ask what their tee time was (I usually already know this), and 9 out 10, they are ahead of pace...as is the group ahead of them.

> > > > > If a group is on pace for a given course, then in no way should they be interfered with.

> > > >

> > > > Even if there are hole(s) open ahead of them and groups waiting on them behind?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Correct. Golf is a game of rules. If the course says you get 2:15 a side and you are on pace, the course won't just arbitrarily decide to push a group at pace to play faster just because someone behind is even faster.

> > > The two courses I ranger at have slightly different policies and practices. Goal number 1 at both is to get everyone in at pace. Goal number 2 is to improve pace of play when possible, and without offending or alienating any golfers. If there is a faster group and there are gaps ahead, I may ask a group if the group behind can play through. If they say no, I do not push it. I do this often during the week. But, when the course is fairly stacked, it will actually play faster is no groups play through and everyone keeps pace.

> > > Managing league play is a different topic altogether, and we use a card system with a start and finish time. The amazing thing about this system is that about 99% of the players will self-police their time and beat the 2:15 time for 9 holes. It actually becomes a pride thing to NOT be the group that creates delay.

> > >

> > > With all that said, if your group is behind (and trust me, I know to the minute the pace of every group on my nine...it's a bit more difficult when I have to cover all 18, but I radio in for a cart time in that case), and you do not heed my friendly instruction to pick up the pace, I will bump you a hole. I hate doing it, but it does happen sometimes with very low skill golfers or clowns.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Which still emphasizes the point that having, and strictly adhering to, a set POP time gives some people an excuse to not allow faster players to play through.

> >

> > POP policy is good thing when used in conjunction with common sense in regard to etiquette. I’m by no means advocating for letting or making a group let another play through if there really isn’t room. Or as RoadKing says, if it’s very late in the round. Common sense in play again. I’m simply referencing the statement, and almost everyone here has heard it it, from the actual group or the ranger, “they/we’re on the established POP so you can’t go through”. Even when there is ample room for to happen easily.

> >

> > POP policies put a maximum limit out there. If there are two or three groups that are faster than then that group, if they get the opportunity to move throug and finish earlier it could possibly create some cushion later in the day. Adhere to that policy of no one going through a group because they are on pace and the only thing there guaranteed from that point on course will fall behind pace. Because there is 0% chance every following group is going to stay on pace.

> >

> > But it is still nice to hear of a course that does monitor it closely like you do. And actually really does act on it. I’m sure it runs a lot smoother than most normal courses.

> >

>

> I'm in agreement with your sentiment. I would love to give every group the opportunity to play as quickly as they want. But, in practice it's difficult to do without creating more, "domino" effect. If the course is wide open and there are few groups, the slower group, even if they are on pace, will usually let the faster group play through.

> So maybe I don't agree with this rangers hardline stance or the way he presented it, but I get where he is coming from.

>

> There are several types of rangers. There are the ones that appreciate getting lots of free golf for a small investment of their time. They are golfers and understand that everyone wants to play at a reasonable pace and they are watching and trying to prevent the bottlenecks. Then there are the rangers that more or less just show up. They are the ones that say, "there is nothing we could do" when the domino backups happen. I don't have a lot of respect for that type of ranger and everyone knows who they are and what to expect when they are on the job. Sometimes the rangers themselves allow the chaos to happen, and that is rather embarrassing.

 

Can’t disagree with anything you said there at all. Rangering is tough, everyone out there looks at you as the “bad guy”. I have a ton of respect for the ones like yourself who do it correctly. So hard to enforce rules without really upsetting people. Takes really good people skills to do it well. And it helps a lot to have the backing of the course.

 

[MountainKing]

> @"North Butte" said:

> You don't have to agree with how they come with their posted time expectation. You only have to decide if you're willing to play at that pace. It's not a negotiation.

>

> If a course posts some number, like 4:15 or whatever, and tells everyone that is the expectation why on earth would you show up and try to demand to play half an hour faster than that?

>

> It's like being told to tee off on the 10th hole and deciding you're just to walk up on the 1st tee and play away no matter what they say. Remarkable that you persist in believing you were somehow wronged here.

 

I don't totally agree with those numbers, but I also realize you have to look at course to course as well. There's plenty of courses here that play 6000-6200 from the back tees and the holes are on top of each other, those courses should never hit 5 hour rounds. On the flip side a spread out 7000 yard course through a housing development with lots of hazards, OB and long distances (including crossing roads cars drive on) it's unreasonable to expect a 3:30 round there.

 

I'm also not totally sure I agree on skill not being related to pace, 4 scratch golfers will naturally be faster than 4 guys who shoot 100. Even if the scratch players are a bit deliberate there's less time they're going to spend looking for lost balls and the 28 less shots. The thing that would help a lot, is if most golfers would finally recognize they belong on the forward tees. There's nothing better than getting behind a group of guys playing the course at 6500+ yards, you watch them all "smash" 200 yard drives on a 430 yard par 4 then they stand and wait for the green to clear when none of them have a chance of getting the ball up there.

 

The interval thing is huge. I never understood how anybody with common sense said "let's have 7 minute tee time intervals when it takes 13 minutes to play a hole". Over a 10 hour period that's 100 less players in the day when you do 10 instead of 7, a decent loss in revenue, but it also probably means you'll have a lot of those guys with the late tee times coming back as repeat customers because they were able to finish their rounds before it got dark, on top of the early morning guys coming back because the pace was great.

 

I try to be reasonable about the pace thing, I don't think 4 hours is unacceptable at most courses, but most courses don't want to do anything to even keep a 4:30 pace and they just let it grow beyond that. I'm lucky that I have some flexibility in where I can try to avoid certain courses and certain times. If I was stuck playing only on Saturday afternoons I'm not sure I'd keep playing.

[Pearson10M]

Interesting read of many of the responses here. I am in the "Ranger was right" camp. I don't understand the logic/argument that if you have a group behind you "pushing" you and an open hole in front of you, you're playing slow. I think we all would agree that a party of two should be able to play faster than a foursome assuming comparable playing skills. However, if the ranger says we expect you to finish a 18-hole round in 4 h, you're not playing slow if you are on a pace of 3:50, even though a group behind you is on pace to finish in 3:40. Both are below the expected POP established by the course. The 3:50 group is not playing slow, just not as fast as the 3:40 group and shouldn't feel compelled to speed it up. I think another poster had a good analogy with the speed limit. Paraphrased, "If someone in a car is traveling above the speed limit, just because someone behind them wants to go faster, doesn't mean the first car is slow".

 

Part of the reason I play golf is to chat with my buds, which does take time. However, we are pretty good with ready golf and understand ways to keep the POP moving. I get frustrated if the group behind us is constantly hitting into us to get us to move faster despite us playing well below the established POP. If you're in such a rush to get in your round, maybe you should rethink your reason for being out on the course. Nobody likes a 5+ h round, but feeling obligated to play a 3:15 round or less because the group behind you does, is unacceptable.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @Pearson10M said:

> Interesting read of many of the responses here. I am in the "Ranger was right" camp. I don't understand the logic/argument that if you have a group behind you "pushing" you and an open hole in front of you, you're playing slow. I think we all would agree that a party of two should be able to play faster than a foursome assuming comparable playing skills. However, if the ranger says we expect you to finish a 18-hole round in 4 h, you're not playing slow if you are on a pace of 3:50, even though a group behind you is on pace to finish in 3:40. Both are below the expected POP established by the course. The 3:50 group is not playing slow, just not as fast as the 3:40 group and shouldn't feel compelled to speed it up. I think another poster had a good analogy with the speed limit. Paraphrased, "If someone in a car is traveling above the speed limit, just because someone behind them wants to go faster, doesn't mean the first car is slow".

>

> Part of the reason I play golf is to chat with my buds, which does take time. However, we are pretty good with ready golf and understand ways to keep the POP moving. I get frustrated if the group behind us is constantly hitting into us to get us to move faster despite us playing well below the established POP. If you're in such a rush to get in your round, maybe you should rethink your reason for being out on the course. Nobody likes a 5+ h round, but feeling obligated to play a 3:15 round or less because the group behind you does, is unacceptable.

 

This post absolutely epitomizes the point I’ve been making. Using POP as a reason to not let a faster group play through.

 

No, you’re not slow. That’s correct. But even if you’re not slow if the group behind is faster why not simply let them go through(assuming there is room in front). If you let them go through, they’re likely going to impact you and your group for two or three minutes, while if you continue you’re going to impact that group for the remainder of the round.

How are you going to feel next time out when the situation is reversed?

 

 

[Pearson10M]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @Pearson10M said:

> > Interesting read of many of the responses here. I am in the "Ranger was right" camp. I don't understand the logic/argument that if you have a group behind you "pushing" you and an open hole in front of you, you're playing slow. I think we all would agree that a party of two should be able to play faster than a foursome assuming comparable playing skills. However, if the ranger says we expect you to finish a 18-hole round in 4 h, you're not playing slow if you are on a pace of 3:50, even though a group behind you is on pace to finish in 3:40. Both are below the expected POP established by the course. The 3:50 group is not playing slow, just not as fast as the 3:40 group and shouldn't feel compelled to speed it up. I think another poster had a good analogy with the speed limit. Paraphrased, "If someone in a car is traveling above the speed limit, just because someone behind them wants to go faster, doesn't mean the first car is slow".

> >

> > Part of the reason I play golf is to chat with my buds, which does take time. However, we are pretty good with ready golf and understand ways to keep the POP moving. I get frustrated if the group behind us is constantly hitting into us to get us to move faster despite us playing well below the established POP. If you're in such a rush to get in your round, maybe you should rethink your reason for being out on the course. Nobody likes a 5+ h round, but feeling obligated to play a 3:15 round or less because the group behind you does, is unacceptable.

>

> This post absolutely epitomizes the point I’ve been making. Using POP as a reason to not let a faster group play through.

>

> No, you’re not slow. That’s correct. But even if you’re not slow if the group behind is faster why not simply let them go through(assuming there is room in front). If you let them go through, they’re likely going to impact you and your group for two or three minutes, while if you continue you’re going to impact that group for the remainder of the round.

> How are you going to feel next time out when the situation is reversed?

>

>

If there was a hole in front of me open, and I mean OPEN, as in we're getting off of the green as the group in front is getting off of their green, unless it is a Par 3, I would be inclined to let them play through. If letting them play through though means me waiting for them to finish playing on each hole after that, I would be inclined to decline. Generally you have a pretty good idea of the course congestion after the first few holes. POP's are set that if you follow that pace, you should not have wait and should get an enjoyable round of golf with being pressured to play faster.

 

I still don't understand the desire for speed golf. If your goal is to play a sub 3 h round, maybe playing at a popular course on a weekend isn't conducive in achieving this goal and one shouldn't expect those ahead of you to go faster or necessarily let you play through to help you succeed if you do decide to play. Not everyone is of the "speed golf" mindset.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @Pearson10M said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @Pearson10M said:

> > > Interesting read of many of the responses here. I am in the "Ranger was right" camp. I don't understand the logic/argument that if you have a group behind you "pushing" you and an open hole in front of you, you're playing slow. I think we all would agree that a party of two should be able to play faster than a foursome assuming comparable playing skills. However, if the ranger says we expect you to finish a 18-hole round in 4 h, you're not playing slow if you are on a pace of 3:50, even though a group behind you is on pace to finish in 3:40. Both are below the expected POP established by the course. The 3:50 group is not playing slow, just not as fast as the 3:40 group and shouldn't feel compelled to speed it up. I think another poster had a good analogy with the speed limit. Paraphrased, "If someone in a car is traveling above the speed limit, just because someone behind them wants to go faster, doesn't mean the first car is slow".

> > >

> > > Part of the reason I play golf is to chat with my buds, which does take time. However, we are pretty good with ready golf and understand ways to keep the POP moving. I get frustrated if the group behind us is constantly hitting into us to get us to move faster despite us playing well below the established POP. If you're in such a rush to get in your round, maybe you should rethink your reason for being out on the course. Nobody likes a 5+ h round, but feeling obligated to play a 3:15 round or less because the group behind you does, is unacceptable.

> >

> > This post absolutely epitomizes the point I’ve been making. Using POP as a reason to not let a faster group play through.

> >

> > No, you’re not slow. That’s correct. But even if you’re not slow if the group behind is faster why not simply let them go through(assuming there is room in front). If you let them go through, they’re likely going to impact you and your group for two or three minutes, while if you continue you’re going to impact that group for the remainder of the round.

> > How are you going to feel next time out when the situation is reversed?

> >

> >

> If there was a hole in front of me open, and I mean OPEN, as in we're getting off of the green as the group in front is getting off of their green, unless it is a Par 3, I would be inclined to let them play through. If letting them play through though means me waiting for them to finish playing on each hole after that, I would be inclined to decline. Generally you have a pretty good idea of the course congestion after the first few holes. POP's are set that if you follow that pace, you should not have wait and should get an enjoyable round of golf with being pressured to play faster.

>

> I still don't understand the desire for speed golf. If your goal is to play a sub 3 h round, maybe playing at a popular course on a weekend isn't conducive in achieving this goal and one shouldn't expect those ahead of you to go faster or necessarily let you play through to help you succeed if you do decide to play. Not everyone is of the "speed golf" mindset.

 

Just because someone is faster than your group doesn’t mean they are of a “speedgolf” mindset. And if you think the greens clearing simultaneously is the only way a hole is open I understand the disconnect. If that is the situation, then your group is clearly behind, regardless of what the POP standard says.

 

[buckeyefl]

> @MountainKing said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > You don't have to agree with how they come with their posted time expectation. You only have to decide if you're willing to play at that pace. It's not a negotiation.

> >

> > If a course posts some number, like 4:15 or whatever, and tells everyone that is the expectation why on earth would you show up and try to demand to play half an hour faster than that?

> >

> > It's like being told to tee off on the 10th hole and deciding you're just to walk up on the 1st tee and play away no matter what they say. Remarkable that you persist in believing you were somehow wronged here.

>

> I don't totally agree with those numbers, but I also realize you have to look at course to course as well. There's plenty of courses here that play 6000-6200 from the back tees and the holes are on top of each other, those courses should never hit 5 hour rounds. On the flip side a spread out 7000 yard course through a housing development with lots of hazards, OB and long distances (including crossing roads cars drive on) it's unreasonable to expect a 3:30 round there.

>

> I'm also not totally sure I agree on skill not being related to pace, 4 scratch golfers will naturally be faster than 4 guys who shoot 100. Even if the scratch players are a bit deliberate there's less time they're going to spend looking for lost balls and the 28 less shots. The thing that would help a lot, is if most golfers would finally recognize they belong on the forward tees. There's nothing better than getting behind a group of guys playing the course at 6500+ yards, you watch them all "smash" 200 yard drives on a 430 yard par 4 then they stand and wait for the green to clear when none of them have a chance of getting the ball up there.

>

> The interval thing is huge. I never understood how anybody with common sense said "let's have 7 minute tee time intervals when it takes 13 minutes to play a hole". Over a 10 hour period that's 100 less players in the day when you do 10 instead of 7, a decent loss in revenue, but it also probably means you'll have a lot of those guys with the late tee times coming back as repeat customers because they were able to finish their rounds before it got dark, on top of the early morning guys coming back because the pace was great.

>

> I try to be reasonable about the pace thing, I don't think 4 hours is unacceptable at most courses, but most courses don't want to do anything to even keep a 4:30 pace and they just let it grow beyond that. I'm lucky that I have some flexibility in where I can try to avoid certain courses and certain times. If I was stuck playing only on Saturday afternoons I'm not sure I'd keep playing.

 

Course length and distance between holes is one if many factors. The short course example could be a PoP nightmare for several other reasons.

[buckeyefl]

> @Pearson10M said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @Pearson10M said:

> > > Interesting read of many of the responses here. I am in the "Ranger was right" camp. I don't understand the logic/argument that if you have a group behind you "pushing" you and an open hole in front of you, you're playing slow. I think we all would agree that a party of two should be able to play faster than a foursome assuming comparable playing skills. However, if the ranger says we expect you to finish a 18-hole round in 4 h, you're not playing slow if you are on a pace of 3:50, even though a group behind you is on pace to finish in 3:40. Both are below the expected POP established by the course. The 3:50 group is not playing slow, just not as fast as the 3:40 group and shouldn't feel compelled to speed it up. I think another poster had a good analogy with the speed limit. Paraphrased, "If someone in a car is traveling above the speed limit, just because someone behind them wants to go faster, doesn't mean the first car is slow".

> > >

> > > Part of the reason I play golf is to chat with my buds, which does take time. However, we are pretty good with ready golf and understand ways to keep the POP moving. I get frustrated if the group behind us is constantly hitting into us to get us to move faster despite us playing well below the established POP. If you're in such a rush to get in your round, maybe you should rethink your reason for being out on the course. Nobody likes a 5+ h round, but feeling obligated to play a 3:15 round or less because the group behind you does, is unacceptable.

> >

> > This post absolutely epitomizes the point I’ve been making. Using POP as a reason to not let a faster group play through.

> >

> > No, you’re not slow. That’s correct. But even if you’re not slow if the group behind is faster why not simply let them go through(assuming there is room in front). If you let them go through, they’re likely going to impact you and your group for two or three minutes, while if you continue you’re going to impact that group for the remainder of the round.

> > How are you going to feel next time out when the situation is reversed?

> >

> >

> If there was a hole in front of me open, and I mean OPEN, as in we're getting off of the green as the group in front is getting off of their green, unless it is a Par 3, I would be inclined to let them play through. If letting them play through though means me waiting for them to finish playing on each hole after that, I would be inclined to decline. Generally you have a pretty good idea of the course congestion after the first few holes. POP's are set that if you follow that pace, you should not have wait and should get an enjoyable round of golf with being pressured to play faster.

>

> I still don't understand the desire for speed golf. If your goal is to play a sub 3 h round, maybe playing at a popular course on a weekend isn't conducive in achieving this goal and one shouldn't expect those ahead of you to go faster or necessarily let you play through to help you succeed if you do decide to play. Not everyone is of the "speed golf" mindset.

 

That is not how PoP is set up. If a course is full you would have 2-3 groups on every hole at one point or another. One leaving the green, one getting to their drives and potentially one arriving at the tee. Some people mentally equate seeing other golfers as an indication that the pace is slow and they get themselves all wound up. I can't count the times I've had someone complain " we waited on every shot. It was slow. We were out there five hours" only to have to correct their presumptions and time keeping. More than a few would play in four hours or less with 200+ people on the course but because they couldn't hit their ball as soon as they jumped from the cart, they assumed it was slow.