Bryson talking challenges of one length short irons.

[Tugu]

Firstly, I am a fan of one lengths. But will wait till these issues are sorted out before making the switch. Bryson's own challenges with the short irons are discussed in detail here.

 

https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/08/20/bryson-dechambeau-dreams-perfect-game-no-matter-what-takes/

 

Seems like there's simply too much clubhead speed in the short irons to be able to get a consistent outcome. At SW lofts with the extra clubhead speed, the ball has a habit of running up the face and delivering variable outcomes.

 

For me, I'm more concerned about the slower clubhead speeds in the longer irons. I see limited upside in one length short irons and quite the opposite in correctly designed one length long irons. Even if the grooves are dulled to regulate full shots, what happens to the pitch and chip shots that require the "skinnier" grooves?

 

Come'on Cobra, you have enough feedback data now to get these things right!

[JDCON]

I was playing the Forged Tec Black One Length this summer. I just traded them for a set of Srixon ZU85/Z785 combo set. It was an interesting experience and I really enjoyed the Forged Tec Black irons and maybe I'll try one length in the future again, but this was an experiment that just wasn't for me. My short iron play was probably worse than it has ever been. Just not sure it was worth it. This is also the highest my handicap has been in 15 years. Not sure if it's related.

[bluedot]

I think this is the biggest question that everybody has had about the single length idea; can you be as accurate with a wedge the length of a six iron as you can with a shorter version? And while the concept of one length/one swing/one plane, etc. is attractive, this seems to be a BIG hurdle. I shorten up down to the steel when I chip, and I do it for control and accuracy. That's a guiding principle of golf clubs, right?

[Tugu]

> @bluedot said:

> I think this is the biggest question that everybody has had about the single length idea; can you be as accurate with a wedge the length of a six iron as you can with a shorter version? And while the concept of one length/one swing/one plane, etc. is attractive, this seems to be a BIG hurdle. I shorten up down to the steel when I chip, and I do it for control and accuracy. That's a guiding principle of golf clubs, right?

 

And this is part of the problem. If the manufacturers need to make duller grooves to offset the higher swing speeds on the full wedge shots (due to SW being the length of a 7 iron), what happens when you shorten it up for a pitch/chip? You will swing it normal speed and there will simply be less spin than usual.

 

[farmer]

I don't think balls crawl up the face of any club. Don't understand why anyone would be surprised that an overlength wedge would be somewhat more difficult to control.

[bluedot]

One other thought that I've written here before. DeChambeau is not only an outlier, but we ONLY know what he has done playing this one way. I, for one, would be much more interested in the single length idea if DeChambeau had scuffled for years playing a conventional set, then tried single length and exploded into sudden success. (Think Mariano Rivera discovering his cutter during a bullpen session one day; before, he was a marginal major leaguer, and after he was the greatest closer the game has ever known and throwing essentially only that one pitch.) In DeChambeau's case, who's to say (besides him, of course) that he wouldn't have been even better by now playing a conventional set of clubs?

 

The other thing to remember is that the more a professional athlete is an outlier, usually the less applicability that has to you and me. The message from Nolan Ryan, to use another baseball analogy, isn't to throw harder for more years; it's that Nolan Ryan was a supremely gifted genetic freak. I can't run like Usain Bolt by lengthening my stride, and I can't jump like Jordan did to improve my shooting percentage thru more dunks. This thing seems work for DeChambeau; that may or may not mean anything to me because the tradeoffs might be all wrong. He can compensate; I may not be able to.

[stormbringer]

> @farmer said:

> I don't think balls crawl up the face of any club. Don't understand why anyone would be surprised that an overlength wedge would be somewhat more difficult to control.

 

I have experienced several sand and lob wedge shots crawling up the face. Happens from time to time and it robs you distance. Very surprised you have never felt or experienced that.

[Barfolomew]

I tried them for a minute and really like longer short clubs.... I didnt like shorter long irons

[Adam C]

I just retrofit a set of MP 18 MMCs with a hybrid design where by my length progression goes down in 1/4 intervals from the 6 iron. It sits at 37.5in. So my 8 iron is 37 and my PW is 36.5, SW 36.25.

Originally had the 1/4 progression with the 4 and 5 irons also but found the weighting got out of hand with the heads and shafts I am using. So I added the length back to those to set them back to "standard" 38 and 38.5.

Still working on dialing in the distances on the short irons and adjusting the lofts but really like them so far. Ball has been starting down target line every time which was not always the case with shorter traditional clubs.

[Waytall]

I have a set of Edel SLS. After a couple rounds , I find they aren’t for me. I just couldn’t get used to it. Back to variable length.

[musclefront]

There’s a reason they’re an anomaly and not the standard.

[kody17]

I've taken some of my favorite aspects of the one length concept, and adapted it to my variable length set. For instance, my 4,5,6,7 irons are the same length. 8 iron is 1/2" shorter. Then 9-GW are the same length, 1/2" shorter than the 8 iron.

Works for me.

[Golfjack]

If they could make all the clubs at PW length, I'd be willing to try. Hybrid head 4-6, SGI 7-8, CB 9-PW

[Tugu]

 

Like these?

 

[Andygolderson]

I have a set of one length Cobra black forged tec irons and i didn't yet experience any real issues. For me, it's only a learning curve and a matter of finding how YOU individually should adapt to the clubs, the style and the single length. I don't believe that it's a club problem.

 

One thing i noticed right away from a 30 year old set of steel irons to a graphite set of one lengths, the long irons suffer some distance in comparison. This can be explained however in 2 ways;

Either i have to adjust my swing speed from the design of the clubs, or from the diference in shaft composition.

or secondly, the loft of the "standard" clubs is different from the one length set i just bought and the expectations of the club number, is different to comparable clubs.

 

I don't need distance, i hit balls pretty far with any club, for me i want more accuracy / stability / consistency in my shots.

 

I have never had a problem with long irons, 3, 4, 5 etc, but i do suffer some issues in my one length 5 and 6 irons. Maybe it's just that i have some different expectations in the gapping, or again the number expectation problem.

Initially, i have issues with the shorter irons where i caught them all directly on the heel at the shaft and they slice badly. If i narrow my stance, the problem is solved.

The only inconsistency i see with the short irons is with my 9 iron. It can go from 120-150 meters. (130-165 yards). This is either a 7, 8 or 9 iron range normally, but it happens rarely.

 

From the specs of the clubs, you can see that the loft between 5 and 7 is pretty short, so it can be expected not to have such big gappings in that range. From the 7 down to gap wedge, the lofting is more even and steady.

 

5 - 23 degrees (165m smart range)

6 - 26 degrees (157m smart range)

7 - 30 degrees (150m smart range)

8 - 35 degrees (140m smart range)

9 - 40 degrees (125m smart range)

P - 45 degrees (105m smart range)

G - 50 degrees (80m smart range)

 

The variation is quite big, which is the biggest issue, but at some point in time you adapt to the clubs and find the balance and how to hit it right (other times, you hit the ground, take a divot, whatever goes wrong)

a 3 iron utility (18 degrees, 180-200m) in the size of a 7 iron is no issue for me, nor is a hybrid 21 degree (200-220m). Are they short? yes Is it a problem? no.

 

In my opinion, one length is a mindset thing. If you forget about how the club is "supposed to be" or feel, then you don't have anything in your head stopping you from feeling different while setting up to the ball or swinging for it. If you forget that you're hitting a pitch or gap wedge and just thing that you are hitting a regular shot, there isn't any problem. the club weightings take some getting used to.

 

Sure, it's not for everyone, but i would not say it is a design flaw or an issue, only that one has to adjust their game to the different style of play.

[phatchrisrules]

The only way to do SL really well in my opinion is you need a blended set of clubs and blended shafts. I think you need something that would flight lower with more control in the short irons 8-P with like a bladed or smaller cavity. Combo that with heavier and stouter shafts to promote the flight window you want and you should be good to go. Work progressively backwards from there. I always though AMT shafts would make a lot of sense in a SL build but they don't seem to really be offered much in these type of heads.

[ago33]

I was about to comment

Then realized he has won multiple PGA events and I can’t make a 5 foot putt.

[stryper]

> @ago33 said:

> I was about to comment

> Then realized he has won multiple PGA events and I can’t make a 5 foot putt.

 

Awesome ?

[Jc0]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> The only way to do SL really well in my opinion is you need a blended set of clubs and blended shafts. I think you need something that would flight lower with more control in the short irons 8-P with like a bladed or smaller cavity. Combo that with heavier and stouter shafts to promote the flight window you want and you should be good to go. Work progressively backwards from there. I always though AMT shafts would make a lot of sense in a SL build but they don't seem to really be offered much in these type of heads.

But that takes away from the point of single length. Every club is supposed to feel the same. I used to play all my clubs 2" over and had similar issues. The only way I could get around it was by hitting the ball higher. If I tried to flight it down I would spin it back 20ft. Personally I think he'll end up modifing single length to duel length and make the 9-LW the same length. He gives up to much control in those clubs where it really matters.

 

[Noke]

Wishon got it about as right as SL can be done with the Sterlings.

 

Shorter length of 36.5" (can be made even shorter than that) doesn't increase club head speed in the high-lofted irons too much. Small cavity in the scoring clubs with weight not too low to fight ballooning. Mid-iron speed from max-COR face. Hybrids available to the 5 for a little more launch.

 

Plus they're bendable 4 degrees any direction to get gapping and dispersion right.

 

I know that this sounds like a commercial.

 

SORRY

[IHFN]

After trying SL I think this is one of those things that in theory sounds great and makes sense, but it just doesn't work in the real world. The long irons in SL are crazy hard to hit and get the right flight and distance. I was told, "oh just replace your 4 and 5 iron with a hybrid", but that just doesn't make sense to me. If it doesn't make it easier to hit long irons and makes it more difficult to control the shorter irons then I don't see any benefits in doing it.

 

Even supposedly having the same angles during every swing is a great "in theory". But tell me how many shots a round you hit where you have a perfectly flat lie and are hitting a perfectly full shot? Sure every par 3 you should have a flat lie, but how often are you in between clubs on them? The iron game is about making small adjustments to get distance, trajectory and spin correctly.

 

As much as I would love to say you only need one swing to hit irons, it just simply isn't true.

[phatchrisrules]

> @IHFN said:

> After trying SL I think this is one of those things that in theory sounds great and makes sense, but it just doesn't work in the real world. The long irons in SL are crazy hard to hit and get the right flight and distance. I was told, "oh just replace your 4 and 5 iron with a hybrid", but that just doesn't make sense to me. If it doesn't make it easier to hit long irons and makes it more difficult to control the shorter irons then I don't see any benefits in doing it.

>

> **Even supposedly having the same angles during every swing is a great "in theory". But tell me how many shots a round you hit where you have a perfectly flat lie and are hitting a perfectly full shot?** Sure every par 3 you should have a flat lie, but how often are you in between clubs on them? The iron game is about making small adjustments to get distance, trajectory and spin correctly.

>

> As much as I would love to say you only need one swing to hit irons, it just simply isn't true.

 

I agree with everything you said here except for what I bolded. You have the same issue with VL clubs too, even if you grab a club in either direction of the one you need based on a ball above or below your feet scenario you're really only changing the lie angle about 0.5* which might be completely nullified or completely exaggerated to an extreme due to the slope. I believe the single lie angle across the board is the least of SL's problems it needs to iron before getting reasonably sought after. Time and time again I hear people trying it but abandoning it after a few rounds even up to a full season. To me it's the pineapple pizza of the golf world, those that enjoy it LOVE IT and want it all the time, those that don't like it, really dislike it. Put me in the hard no category for SL. I tried it and as you mentioned the long irons just never get airborne even with a wide-cavity GI iron. The wedge was fine but spun A LOT and I found myself pulling PW from shorter and shorter distances to try and see what my actual carry was. In the end it seemed that it flew about as far as my GW which was not very helpful.

[tgoodspe1991]

> @IHFN said:

>**If it doesn't make it easier to hit long irons and makes it more difficult to control the shorter irons then I don't see any benefits in doing it.**

>

This right here, lol

[phatchrisrules]

> @Jc0 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > The only way to do SL really well in my opinion is you need a blended set of clubs and blended shafts. I think you need something that would flight lower with more control in the short irons 8-P with like a bladed or smaller cavity. Combo that with heavier and stouter shafts to promote the flight window you want and you should be good to go. Work progressively backwards from there. I always though AMT shafts would make a lot of sense in a SL build but they don't seem to really be offered much in these type of heads.

> But that takes away from the point of single length. Every club is supposed to feel the same. I used to play all my clubs 2" over and had similar issues. The only way I could get around it was by hitting the ball higher. If I tried to flight it down I would spin it back 20ft. Personally I think he'll end up modifing single length to duel length and make the 9-LW the same length. He gives up to much control in those clubs where it really matters.

>

 

See I disagree with this. I consider SL to be solely about one ball position for a repeatable swing. Whether that is actually the case is probably up for debate but it is how Cobra markets it and I think we can all agree that most people who are going to try this concept in the general public are going to go the Cobra route due to Bryson. As renowned as Wishon is in golf circles I'd be shocked if more than 2/10 customers in a Gof Galaxy or decent golf course knew that name. That's why I think the AMT design would be a great idea for SL. Yes the weight increases but if a company went the Ping route with the customizable CPT route they could get the swingweights across the set bang on without the customer realizing the headweight would be minutely +/- from the standard 272g or whatever it is that the 7i SL concept is built off of.

 

Just spit balling on the PIng idea if they did this say for the last iterations. They could have gone G400 design in a 4-7, i200 in the 6-P, and iBlade in the 8-U and allowed the customer to mix and match where they needed the forgiveness and flight control where they need it. Pairing it with say 3 versions of their AWT 2.0 shafts based on the current weght and flex ranges they already offer (cut weight of 6i at 98, 104, 119...with the ability to get reg, stiff, and X in each weight range) and then some sort of similar design graphite option they probably would have been able to make it work. I'm obviously no club engineer but on paper this set-up makes sense and would allow for every player to find their respective cut off point for where they want each club to slot in and work.

 

It's an intriguing idea actually.

[Andygolderson]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> I always though AMT shafts would make a lot of sense in a SL build but they don't seem to really be offered much in these type of heads.

 

TRUE TEMPER AMT TOUR WHITE is the standard shaft, i believe, which promotes low trajectory and low spin. The Hybrid i just received has it by accident and i do notice the ball flies a bit lower. I have a severe hook with it as well, I don't really enjoy it. I'm waiting for my replacement in the Mamiya UST recoil. To me, this shows that the differences within the shafts and clubs for SL doesn't work when you introduce variation.

"each shaft increases by 3g in weight through the set for lighter, higher launching long iron shafts and heavier, short iron shafts that provide more control. " For me this kind of goes against the concept of the SL methodology, since they put tungsten weighting in each of the heads to generate different club head weights.

 

There are some videos on YouTube regarding the trackman trajectories and ball flights from the clubs, as well as for the spin rates. Quite interesting.

 

People have commented my ball flight is very high, but i like the control of the ball where it mostly sits close to where it lands and won't roll off too far. This makes it easier to judge the distances or the club to hit. It also fits the profile from the UST RECOIL 760/780 ES SMACWRAP shaft (mid spin, mid-high launch).

The only exception I see is in the 5 and maybe 6 iron, but i think this is more of my issue on hitting them correctly, as opposed to by design. They usually fly at a lesser trajectory than expected.

[BY#99]

I agree above about Bryson. We have no idea of what he could do invested in traditional irons compared to this. This is a niche market and from what I understand has been around for decades. If this has been around so long, and basically (other than a few pros maybe) no professionals are using that should tell you something. These may work for a few. Not for me as I have tried. I think Bryson gets a little pushback because he comes off sometimes like he knows more than everyone and can seem arrogant. They work for him which is great but I do not believe these are beneficial to most golfers. I do not know off anyone using these but at least it is another option out there which in my opinion is good to have.

[dlygrisse]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @IHFN said:

> > After trying SL I think this is one of those things that in theory sounds great and makes sense, but it just doesn't work in the real world. The long irons in SL are crazy hard to hit and get the right flight and distance. I was told, "oh just replace your 4 and 5 iron with a hybrid", but that just doesn't make sense to me. If it doesn't make it easier to hit long irons and makes it more difficult to control the shorter irons then I don't see any benefits in doing it.

> >

> > **Even supposedly having the same angles during every swing is a great "in theory". But tell me how many shots a round you hit where you have a perfectly flat lie and are hitting a perfectly full shot?** Sure every par 3 you should have a flat lie, but how often are you in between clubs on them? The iron game is about making small adjustments to get distance, trajectory and spin correctly.

> >

> > As much as I would love to say you only need one swing to hit irons, it just simply isn't true.

>

> I agree with everything you said here except for what I bolded. You have the same issue with VL clubs too, even if you grab a club in either direction of the one you need based on a ball above or below your feet scenario you're really only changing the lie angle about 0.5* which might be completely nullified or completely exaggerated to an extreme due to the slope. I believe the single lie angle across the board is the least of SL's problems it needs to iron before getting reasonably sought after. Time and time again I hear people trying it but abandoning it after a few rounds even up to a full season. To me it's the pineapple pizza of the golf world, those that enjoy it LOVE IT and want it all the time, those that don't like it, really dislike it. Put me in the hard no category for SL. I tried it and as you mentioned the long irons just never get airborne even with a wide-cavity GI iron. The wedge was fine but spun A LOT and I found myself pulling PW from shorter and shorter distances to try and see what my actual carry was. In the end it seemed that it flew about as far as my GW which was not very helpful.

 

Lie angle is more about creating the correct spin axis than how you contact the turf after the ball is gone anyway. The lie angle and shaft length combination need to sync with your angle of attack into the ball.

[phatchrisrules]

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @IHFN said:

> > > After trying SL I think this is one of those things that in theory sounds great and makes sense, but it just doesn't work in the real world. The long irons in SL are crazy hard to hit and get the right flight and distance. I was told, "oh just replace your 4 and 5 iron with a hybrid", but that just doesn't make sense to me. If it doesn't make it easier to hit long irons and makes it more difficult to control the shorter irons then I don't see any benefits in doing it.

> > >

> > > **Even supposedly having the same angles during every swing is a great "in theory". But tell me how many shots a round you hit where you have a perfectly flat lie and are hitting a perfectly full shot?** Sure every par 3 you should have a flat lie, but how often are you in between clubs on them? The iron game is about making small adjustments to get distance, trajectory and spin correctly.

> > >

> > > As much as I would love to say you only need one swing to hit irons, it just simply isn't true.

> >

> > I agree with everything you said here except for what I bolded. You have the same issue with VL clubs too, even if you grab a club in either direction of the one you need based on a ball above or below your feet scenario you're really only changing the lie angle about 0.5* which might be completely nullified or completely exaggerated to an extreme due to the slope. I believe the single lie angle across the board is the least of SL's problems it needs to iron before getting reasonably sought after. Time and time again I hear people trying it but abandoning it after a few rounds even up to a full season. To me it's the pineapple pizza of the golf world, those that enjoy it LOVE IT and want it all the time, those that don't like it, really dislike it. Put me in the hard no category for SL. I tried it and as you mentioned the long irons just never get airborne even with a wide-cavity GI iron. The wedge was fine but spun A LOT and I found myself pulling PW from shorter and shorter distances to try and see what my actual carry was. In the end it seemed that it flew about as far as my GW which was not very helpful.

>

> Lie angle is more about creating the correct spin axis than how you contact the turf after the ball is gone anyway. The lie angle and shaft length combination need to sync with your angle of attack into the ball.

 

I am aware of what lie angles do, thank you. That is why I am saying that it doesn't matter if you have a VL or SL on an awkard lie, nothing is going to compensate for it so you just have to play the shot anyways. It's not a SL problem specifically, any player has trouble regardless of their skill or set design.

[zebra2955]

Do you think they might just change the length of the wedges ? Make them all one length , lets use PW as an example. So then it would realy be 2 length irons.

9 iron up 6-7 iron length, wedges PW length.

 

For me that might be something I might just think about trying

[OsnolaKinnard]

> @bluedot said:

> I think this is the biggest question that everybody has had about the single length idea; can you be as accurate with a wedge the length of a six iron as you can with a shorter version? And while the concept of one length/one swing/one plane, etc. is attractive, this seems to be a BIG hurdle. I shorten up down to the steel when I chip, and I do it for control and accuracy. That's a guiding principle of golf clubs, right?

 

I have found that my play with 8-GW is much better since switching to the Edel SLS01 irons.

Full swings...3/4...half...chips...makes no difference for me...I love the results amd do not see myself.going away from this concept.

 

The performance of the 6 and 7 irons are what I expect. The 5 iron...has taken some adjustment. I hit it high enough, but sometimes I dont. That being said...I do not have very many 175-185 yard shots. I am often at like 190-200 or 160 or less. As far as the low trajectory of the 5 iron....the wind blows.in corpus christi... CONSTANTLY....and a low bullet that flies about 170 and rolls a bit is not a bad shot to have.

 

That being said...at 6'4" I have NEVER felt comfortable.with anything less than a 7 iron in my hands. I always felt hunched.over and was adjusting to the club. I like them so much that I plan on buying an SLS01 55* SW.

 

If I had it to do over again...I would have my 7-GW made at the 6 iron SL way and then have the 5 and 6 iron at .5 inch increments longer.

 

This.should.not be an either or proposition...just find what works for your game.