New World Handicap System

[mark m]

My home club has a popular 9-hole "league" component twice per week starting at around 5:00 to 6:00 pm. I very rarely participate on those evenings. (I play weekends and prefer our roughly twice per month weekend tournaments.) They have decent pay outs and the committee posts the scores. The new system next year will make it preferred or necessary to post the scores that same day/evening. I believe they will have to score it similar to our state association events - have one volunteer for each group live post scores to golf genius app and then confirm scores at a scoring table following play. This would cut down the time needed to get all the scores in the system. I really don't think it would be practical to have someone enter hole-by-hole scores for 70+ players later that evening.

 

[crazygolfnut]

My question about the new world system is: When the new system starts, will it carry over the scores that are already in the GHIN system as a base to start with? I might have missed the answer somewhere in this discussion. Thanks.

[ThinkingPlus]

Pretty sure it was mentioned in this thread that current differentials will form the basis for the 1/1/20 handicap index. Also it was mentioned that scores from 2019 will also be processed to determine if index reductions due to extraordinary scores need to be applied.

[reidsou]

Is the process or algorithm for transition of current scoring records to the new WHS handicap index documented somewhere (other than in this thread)?

In addition to the new Index, there may be Exceptional Score Reductions?, establishment of a 365 day Low Handicap Index? etc.?

[ThinkingPlus]

Not sure, but differentials are not changing so best 8 of 20 wth no multiplier will be used after 1/1/20 on everyone's current scores. I think the USGA published a final document on their website recently. Folks were reviewing it with their state associations.

[crazygolfnut]

Thank you for your response. The reason that I ask is that I am the youngest of a group of about 20 guys (all of them are in their late 60’s to late 70’s) that keep handicap’s.  None of them understands what is going on with the hcp system and how it will change their hcp. The common question to me is if a 12.6 hcp wakes up on Jan 1, is he still going to be a 12.6 or will he change to something like a 10.6 or a 14.6. Trying to put all of this discussion into simple and understandable bullet points is somewhat of a challenge.

[klebs01]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. All the fuss over hole by hole scores is nonsense. I've been doing it that way for several years and total time to enter is less than 30 seconds. It provides a nice check on math. It is definitely superior to entering a total and worrying about max score on a hole.

[Augustok]

For the month of October, several times my regular foursome tested the new handicap net double bogie as a maximum score thing. A couple of times nobody ever scored high enough to have to think about recording a maximum score or the max was obviously the same as it was this year. The course handicaps were 16, 18, 21 and 22. It didn’t take a lot of thought to get used to it. One person keeps a paper card of all scores. I also keep mine on my Apple Watch along with putts, fairways missed, etc. and it takes me no time at all the watch is always on. Plus the score card gets emailed to me as soon as I’m done. Others keep a separate personal score for themselves, usually 8 scores on 1 card. The main Score person at end will confirm everyone’s score and fix any errors and the scores are posted. If one person had to sit down and record the gross scores at the end on the club computer for instance it would not take that long. But I bet cell phone apps will be upgraded to the new system. We have a season long ringer board which is the reason we keep a separate card. I can see a 70 person league getting the scores posted by midnight would be hard. BTW the last 3 revisions I refigured under new plan, twice would have been a lower handicap and once higher. Of course there were no condition adjustments or or a soft cap adjustment which I think I’m going to get if I read the rules correctly. January report should be interesting.

[Newby]

I have seen somewhere that the USGA will be processing historical scores using the WHS formula 8/20 without the 96% but I can't now find the reference. There is nothing in the newly released USGA version of the manual.

On that basis I suggest that reassessed handicap indices would be less than 1 stroke either way.

 

Edit: This is all I could find but it gives no more information about the exact process.3. How will existing handicaps be used for the World Handicap System? Also, is my handicap expected to change when the system goes live?Existing scoring records will be retained and, where possible, be used to calculate a handicap under the WHS. For most players, their handicap will change only slightly as they will be coming from systems which are generally similar to the WHS. However, this will be dependent on many factors – including the number of scores available upon which the calculation of a handicap can be based. National Associations are being encouraged to communicate this message to clubs and golfers, i.e. that the more scores available in the scoring record at the time of transition, the less impact golfers will feel on their handicap.

[Sawgrass]

Counting only best 8 of 20 instead of 10 may change things, as will eliminating the 96% multiplier. So, yes, you will likely wake up to a new number, but not on 1/1/20, but rather a few days later when the new system goes back up. (True for Connecticut, and I presume the rest of the US.)

[nsxguy]

Seems to me though that one of the major complaints around here is people using their cell phones on the course. People having to answer calls or texts. Or make them. The calls interrupt someone during their turn, etc., etc., etc.
One guy not too long ago, when we're playing a team game, is on his phone all round watching his Turkish soap operas. He hits, goes to the cart and watches. Doesn't watch his teammates hit or where their balls go or (apparently) even care what his teammates are doing. Rinse and repeat. Very annoying.
Another popular complaint is pace of play. I'm relatively sure @bladehunter is right. This cellphone stuff ain't gonna SPEED UP the round. And the fist time a guy drops his phone and breaks it will be the last - because he won't use it again. LMAO


Well newby, it's a cultural thing. Way more "social" players, even many who do keep a handicap, that enter their gross score and that's it. It's enough trouble to for them to do that.
Add to that that in most 4-somes, only 2 keep score. The other 2, after the round, ask what they shot. They record that. They're not copying down the hole-by-hole scores to enter them that way. But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
This also goes for the PCC . Does the system do that automatically now ? I haven't read much about that. How does that work ? The system takes all the scores, finds the average score is say, 3 strokes higher than normal and adjust everybody's score for handicap purposes ? I mean surely nobody inputs the weather conditions for the day and lets the computer figure out if it should adjust or not. LOL
And the rest of the world has been doing both for years ? Well, I don't travel all that much. I've only been in SE Asia and the USA for the last 10 years or so and neither of those 2 countries do it. I seem to recall the UK doing it (CONGU), yes ? But the ESA and the others have been doing it for years ? Didn't know that. I'd have thought, like Dave, "not even close".

[Newby]

[Newby]

This also goes for the PCC . Does the system do that automatically now ? I haven't read much about that. How does that work ? The system takes all the scores, finds the average score is say, 3 strokes higher than normal and adjust everybody's score for handicap purposes ? I mean surely nobody inputs the weather conditions for the day and lets the computer figure out if it should adjust or not. LOLAnd the rest of the world has been doing both for years ? Well, I don't travel all that much. I've only been in SE Asia and the USA for the last 10 years or so and neither of those 2 countries do it. I seem to recall the UK doing it (CONGU), yes ? But the ESA and the others have been doing it for years ? Didn't know that. I'd have thought, like Dave, "not even close".

The PCC is performed automatically overnight when all scores posted during the day for rounds played on the day have been posted.

The EGA (Europe), CONGU (GB&I, parts of Africa and Asia) and Golf Australia have got slightly different variations but all serving the same purpose.

Phone entry will be optional but they should be in flight mode anyway. Cards will still be available as will the facility on GPS devices ultimately no doubt.

[klebs01]

How old are you guys complaining about phones. Most of the comments are comical and seem very detached from reality. Almost everyone at the two clubs I have been a member at have had phones with them on the course and it doesn't seem to slow down play. Though both are walking clubs and pace is generally under 4 hours.

I've used the blue golf app for a couple years. It's easy to input scores as you go and can keep score for the four some along with multiple games including handicap adjustments. Makes things really easy and sends a leaderboard link to the other players. Total time to record scores after a hole is less than with paper.

[ThinkingPlus]

Yes, well those pencil thingies can be challenging to use. ;-)

[bladehunter]

39 here. Tail end of the last generation to have grown to a teenager without a phone. I recall the days before we where enslaved.

 

That being said. Phones out repeatedly during a round with either of the skins groups I play with would get you verbally thrashed inside of 3 holes. Now the occasional check of the football score if that’s a topic of discussion while you walk is one thing. But out talking to your sweety or checking work email etc. nope. Not going to work. And I’m a guy who’s forced to be attached to a phone 24/7 because I own a business. It’s not that I’m a non phone user. It’s just that I know when it’s inappropriate. Like the dinner table or church. And a golf course. It’s up and away , only out for emergency or like I said to answer a quick question on rules or something to do with the current conversation.

[DaveLeeNC]

I am 70 and among the 16 guys that I play with, I am the youngest (consider this a good representation of our club membership profile). We are a HUGE club with literally thousands of Ghin #'s in our handicap database. There are a lot of us out in the golfing world and SMARTphones are simply not part of our world on a regular basis. I don't doubt that doing this stuff on phones is efficient where you play. Where I play it is far from obvious. "Our" answer (in the general case) will probably be each person having their own paper scorecard. Not the end of the world but not trivial either.

I have an Android phone and I will be going the paper route if hole by hole is required.

dave

[Sawgrass]

IMO people should stop thinking of their smartphone as a phone in this regard, and simply think of it as a scorecard. Your phone with a Golf Genius club account offers the following advantages:

Completely accurate addition, max score calculation, handicap adjustments for all forms of play, potential for forcing posting of rounds (sandbag inhibition) and the fun of live scoring/ leaderboard view (if you choose to use it).

The disadvantages seem to be:

We prefer what we’re used to, inability to Quickly record private playing notes, and a possible/modest time penalty (BTW, setting your phone to stay on for the round is a practical solution to the problem of taking the time to repeatedly wake it.)

To me, the improved max score calculation, arithmetic perfection and forced posting make the choice we’ll worth it.

[bladehunter]

Fun fact. Last time I had to change my passcode , I nearly was permanently locked out of my phone for trying the code too many times. Having to figure out how to set the screen to not lock then Reset that has potential for a huge $ penalty. Lol.

[reidsou]

Could smartphone lovers/haters please start a new discussion about that topic? This thread is about the 2020 WHS.

[DaveLeeNC]

This piece of the discussion is about one specific path (involving smartphones) to complying with a requirement (in some places) of the WHS. I don't see excluding such discussions from this thread as being proper.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

If I put my 'unlocked screen' phone in my pocket and played 18 holes, I would probably end up buying a dozen dishwashers from Amazon -:)

dave

[deadsolid...shank]

Wow, just read this entire thread. Don’t play much anymore so really hadn’t paid much attention to the new handicapping methods.

But I did read something that raised a question. In regards to the PCC, someone said that the rating for the day could be raised or lowered based on conditions. I understand that conditions can be more difficult, but how do they ever deem conditions easier? What do they use as a baseline?

Not something important, I was just curious.

[reidsou]

Yes, the topic came up initially with the idea of posting scores hole by hole, even during a round, in order to automate entry of maximum hole score (net double-bogey). However, the discussion has long since digressed into whether posters like or dislike smartphones on golf courses (or prefer pencils!). Or even whether they like or dislike smartphones in general. Read the posts again and you will notice that most are irrelevant to WHS.

[DaveLeeNC]

In my view it meets the 'norms of this forum' for staying on topic. But that is simply a personal judgment - that I am able to type using a real keyboard instead of one of those inventions from hell called the touchscreen keyboard -:) To me preferences for phones on golf courses (for example) is on topic. And telling someone that they the primary path for posting is a smartphone when they don't like smartphones, is also an on topic discussion.

dave

[mark m]

Communicating the changes to members is important. As Sawgrass mentioned, it sounds like the changes will first appear on or around January 6. My golf association has a good page with links. here: Minnesota Golf AssociationI would start with the single page "5 Things to Know. . ." and go from there - perhaps include links to "Key Changes" and/or the Manual.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Unless some retroactive changes to the previous slope and ratings occur, Caps are going to be slightly lower as your dropping 2 of your higher differentials that are included today. The .96 reduction isnt going to be worth more than a half stroke till your average differentials is 13 or higher. I believe mine will go from 2.9 to 2.5.

[mark m]

I am looking forward to seeing the new GHIN app come in early January. The current USGA Handicap system works OK if you have an active HC. But it is time consuming and not a fun position. My hope is the new system will work better for Golf Clubs and their HCs - whether public, private, internet based, or whatever. I believe it is necessary if we are going to grow the game over time.

While I am not 100% sure, it looks like the new app will have a choice for recording hole-by-hole scores and perhaps have stats keeping option - which would be nice. My major concern is how they will be converting/importing our current scoring records into the new app. From the link below, page 88, we see new score designations which may be used. For instance, a 'C' score may be used to designate a score from a competition. (Currently, a 'C' score is a combined score. So there are some changes here which haven't been fully explained as of yet.)

Will current 'T' scores in a record be converted to 'C' scores? Will there be a listing of 'C' scores in the new app? (Similar to the T score listing in the current app)Will some scores have a double designation? Example would be CS or SC for a Stroke Play Competition and/or MC or CM for Match Play Comp? I would still like to see one addition listing in the app = best 20 differentials - last 3 yearshttps://www.mngolf.org/Res/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

[Sawgrass]

At what point do your repeated complaints about off-topic posts become off-topic themselves? I doubt you are achieving your goal, but rather are simply talking about that which you prefer to talk about.

Where is the irony emoji?

[nsxguy]

Funny but I think one of the disadvantages would be damaging a $300-1000 electronic device that really isn't meant to be out in the weather and is generally handled very carefully so as to avoid possible damage colliding, and not very hard at that, with another object.

Of the relatively low usage that I see on the course at the present time I also see a fair bit of drops. Fortunately the majority of these drops are on soft grass or on a matted floor of a cart, either of which, BTW, could be enough to damage the device by itself. Add weather, most especially rain, to the mix and you have reason to be concerned.

Personally, I put my smartphone in a small bag with a drawstring so as pick up as little dirt (electronic connections, microphones, hearing components) as possible from the inside of my golf bag and then I put it in a pocket of my bag that is unlikely to get any hits to it.