Lets take a closer look at distance off the Tee....

15th Club · October 14, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @"15th Club" said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > >

> > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > >

> > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > >

> > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > >

> > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > >

> > >

> > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > >

> > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> >

> > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> >

> > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> >

> > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> >

> > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> >

> > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

>

> But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

>

> Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

>

> Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

>

> Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

>

> Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

>

> Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

>

> Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

>

> OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

>

> See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

You have picked out a selection of tees shots that wonderfully prove my point. And Geoff’s point.

I never said that driving was insignificant or unimportant. It is both significant and important, and I would not want it any other way. But drives themselves are just not memorable. Think of all the memorable shots hit by Tiger Woods at Augusta. The most memorable ones are not drives. They are approaches; chips; putts.

The drives that you have (correctly) cited are all special because they were uniquely related to the course. It wouldn’t have mattered if each of them had been 190, or 290, or 390 yards.

It is all about the golf courses.

QuigleyDU · October 14, 2019

> @"15th Club" said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > >

> > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > >

> > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > >

> > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > >

> > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > >

> > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > >

> > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > >

> > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > >

> > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > >

> > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > >

> > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> >

> > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> >

> > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> >

> > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> >

> > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> >

> > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> >

> > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> >

> > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> >

> > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> >

> > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

>

> You have picked out a selection of tees shots that wonderfully prove my point. And Geoff’s point.

>

> I never said that driving was insignificant or unimportant. It is both significant and important, and I would not want it any other way. But drives themselves are just not memorable. Think of all the memorable shots hit by Tiger Woods at Augusta. The most memorable ones are not drives. They are approaches; chips; putts.

>

> The drives that you have (correctly) cited are all special because they were uniquely related to the course. It wouldn’t have mattered if each of them had been 190, or 290, or 390 yards.

>

> It is all about the golf courses.

Sigh.... it’s funny how you constantly ignore things you said only to contradict yourself and say others proved your point. Look, I can tell you have a good grasp on golf history. That’s great!! You love the game as I do. You just love it 30 years ago, and I love it today...

mahonie · October 14, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @"15th Club" said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > >

> > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > >

> > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > >

> > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > >

> > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > >

> > >

> > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > >

> > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> >

> > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> >

> > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> >

> > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> >

> > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> >

> > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

>

> But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

>

> Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

>

> Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

>

> Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

>

> Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

>

> Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

>

> Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

>

> OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

>

> See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

QuigleyDU · October 14, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > >

> > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > >

> > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > >

> > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > >

> > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > >

> > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > >

> > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > >

> > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > >

> > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > >

> > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > >

> > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> >

> > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> >

> > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> >

> > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> >

> > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> >

> > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> >

> > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> >

> > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> >

> > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> >

> > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

>

> It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

Krt22 · October 14, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @"15th Club" said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > >

> > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > >

> > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > >

> > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > >

> > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > >

> > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > >

> > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > >

> > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > >

> > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > >

> > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > >

> > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > >

> > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > >

> > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > >

> > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > >

> > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > >

> > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> >

> > You have picked out a selection of tees shots that wonderfully prove my point. And Geoff’s point.

> >

> > I never said that driving was insignificant or unimportant. It is both significant and important, and I would not want it any other way. But drives themselves are just not memorable. Think of all the memorable shots hit by Tiger Woods at Augusta. The most memorable ones are not drives. They are approaches; chips; putts.

> >

> > The drives that you have (correctly) cited are all special because they were uniquely related to the course. It wouldn’t have mattered if each of them had been 190, or 290, or 390 yards.

> >

> > It is all about the golf courses.

>

> Sigh.... it’s funny how you constantly ignore things you said only to contradict yourself and say others proved your point. Look, I can tell you have a good grasp on golf history. That’s great!! You love the game as I do. You just love it 30 years ago, and I love it today...

Basically. The only ones really upset about the modern game largely seem to be folks who simply cannot hit it far (or never did in the first place). All this talk about rolling back the ball is largely due to the top 30-40 longest guys on tour, if you roll back anything their advantage is only going to grow larger. Someone said you shouldnt have to drive the ball 300yrds to be on tour, I would argue the exact opposite (which is now largely the case). If ams can drive it 300 (assuming 280 carry plus roll), there is no reason to not expect the same or better from pros.

malarijm · October 14, 2019

I would love to know what the ROI is on expansion for the average tour course. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, 99% of the play on a given course is either public or for the membership and not for pros. I also wonder how much of the public play or membership at a tour course is driven by the fact that it is a tour stop vs a course - say TPC River's bend in Cincinnati - that doesn't host an event.

It seems like we are currently trying to find 30+ very expensive solutions every year for tour courses that ultimately boil down to 4 days of tournament play when these solutions have no benefit to the 99% besides maybe the prestige of playing a tour course?

bigred90gt · October 14, 2019

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > => @bigred90gt said:

> > > > Here’s an idea: ask the membership at these “old historic courses” if they think their course plays too easy for them and if they hit it too far for their course to be challenging.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t give a flying flip about professional or elite tournament golf “problems”. The golfing public is who supports this game, and the golfing public does not hit the ball too far. The overwhelming majority of the golfing public can’t break 90 on any given day and has never set foot on the back tees at a golf course.

> > > >

> > > > And don’t give me this hooha about a ball that magically starts reducing distance above some arbitrary clubhead speed. That isn’t going to happen for reasons that have been explained to death in the 100+ page previous thread on this topic.

> > >

> > > How would they implement this?

> > >

> > > What are they going to do, just start experimenting on the players during the season? Make the players get used to the new ball in the off season?

> > >

> > > None of the players is going to comply. They will all just band together and say...'Uh, no"

> > >

> > > They would have to set a target date like 10 years from now and make all the school age/college kids start using the ball now.

> > >

> > > Be like, bifurcation but with everybody *except* the current PGA Tour pros playing the limited ball ; )

> >

> > I think you quoted the wrong post my man.

> >

>

> So? You gotta problem?

>

> Lol, bigred! Just kidding. I just took your post to mean you were not in favor of a roll back and replied in general agreement.

>

> I just don't see how they can tell the best players in the world, players that have been honing their skills their whole lives with certain equipment that is basically an extension of themselves and tell them they are totally changing their games now.

>

I’m definitely not in favor of a rollback. I reckon I misread your post. I know sarcasm is hard to convey through text sometimes.

ThinkingPlus · October 14, 2019

The most prominent aspect of this distance "issue" seems to be that the classic courses that have traditionally challenged elite male golfers are no longer able to do so. However, there remains a large contingent of elite juniors (boys and girls), elite women (pros and ams), and elite senior men (pros and ams) for which the old, classic courses still offer a worthy challenge. Seems to me that is sufficient relevancy for the golf course architecture crowd without the ruling bodies turning the golf world upside down with various rollback schemes. Not only would the age group and women specific championships gain prestige playing at such top courses, but those courses would also become exemplars of the growing the game movement. Win-win all the way around.

smashdn · October 14, 2019

> @clevited said:

>** First, I think its pretty self explanatory why it would be a negative change**. The proposed change currently is a golf ball change. This change would lower distance because that is what is desired? By how much? By quite a bit if they want to fix the perceived problem. This would be absolutely noticeable, more so by the longer hitter. This has to logically be true. Think about it.

I can't agree it is self explanatory. There weren't golf fans in the 80's going, "You know this would be a lot more entertaining if guys were just as a whole hitting it 20 yards further." The distance crept up over the years. It can be regulated back down over a number of years as well just as easily. The ball is only one way, perhaps the least intrusive way to do so. Where we stop depends upon what you value the game to be. I agree with your premise that it would impact the long hitter most and I'll get into it further in my post.

> @clevited said:

> Second, the solution to the perceived problem is to lengthen courses. This notion that you "need" to lengthen a course is logically incorrect. I mentioned previously that it increases distance. It has to. The shorter players will be even less common and you will have more and more Cameron Champs on tour. Did you see what was written about the longest tour pro's already having to hold back? It doesn't help them. There are diminishing returns with belting every single drive out there as far as possible. Let the players play the game as they see fit. **A course cannot be designed to have hazards in the needed locations for every player.** Also, par is just a number, the lowest score wins no matter how it is achieved.

I agree with what you are saying here for the most part. I would offer that it is not that you need to lengthen the course per say, but rather that you need to add length to the distance to the hazards in the driving zone. If you could keep the hazards in the driving zone as architecturally intended, you would not need to add length for length's sake. But to keep those hazards where they hold your interest they have to be moved. You can certainly move a bunker, maybe a hump or bump, probably not a tree or dogleg or a speed slot. So the less expensive option to moving the hazards further out is to move the tee boxes farther back, which in turn adds length.

You are absolutely correct that long courses favor long hitters. It doesn't challenge them, it widens the gap between them and the shorter guys and shrinks the field of guys who are capable of winning. You take a 130 person field and essentially cut it down to the longest 30 players or so.

But do also keep in mind that PGA pros have options as to where and when they play. How many long guys play at Harbor Towne? They typically stay away from it because their distance is not rewarded. You want to play courses and set ups that reward and magnify your advantage. If you have to lay up a bunch then distance is negated. Everybody in the field can hit a tee ball 260. What club you use to do it is irrelevant.

As to the bolded statement. You don't really need to keep them in the zone for every player. You really only need to ensure that everybody has a decision to make. A hazard you can carry by 50-60 yards there is no real decision.

> @clevited said:

> I think you can certainly initially lower driving distance with a high spinning ball, keyword, initially. The golf industry will find a way to lower it, just like a positive attack angle swing can do today, or hitting it higher on the face, or moving weight forward in the head, or changing a shaft, or shortening the club......there are ways around that. You want to see the game played a certain way, you have an idealized view of what golf should be. That is not a good enough reason in many's eyes to change the ball or any equipment involved in the game.

Those club changes have repercussions as well. Shorter club decreases club head speed, decreases distance. More positive angle of attack could lead to balooning shots with a higher spinning ball. To gain back distance you go with a lower lofted driver with exacerbates side spin.

It is not that I necessarily want to see the game played a certain way. It is more that courses are designed to accommodate a certain distance. At the pro level I think it is important to be able to compare this generation of golfer's skills to those of previous generations. I think it is unfortunate that the equipment has made it such that we are unable to do that. That is one aspect. The cost incurred by courses and therefor by all golfers in the attempt to keep the classic architecture relevant is another unfortunate outcome. How much money has an Aronomink or Cherry Hills or Merion incurred to keep the length needed? (Not that those places are hurting for cash.) But even other courses that aren't on PGA Tour rotation let alone Major rotation are victims of the same. College events are getting silly. I'll be the first to stand up and shout that par is just a number used to compare golfers during the round. But more interesting to me is that 440 yard holes are just driver wedge. Big difference between how that plays for someone who drives it 320 versus 280. 280 is not a short driving person by most standards. Driver, wedge versus driver, 7i.

One day we will look back and realize that we had an opportunity to stop the downfall of golf. That may come across as melodramatic but I really do believe that there will come a day when players turn away from the game because it is not challenging and fulfilling. For a multitude of reasons some of the shot-making requirements are already gone. IF you don't thin equipment plays a role in that I encourage you to go pick up some forged blades and persimmons from the 70's or 80's. It is a completely different way to play than with modern clubs.

mahonie · October 14, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > >

> > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > >

> > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > >

> > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > >

> > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > >

> > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > >

> > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > >

> > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > >

> > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > >

> > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > >

> > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > >

> > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > >

> > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > >

> > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > >

> > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > >

> > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> >

> > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

>

> I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

clevited · October 14, 2019

> @smashdn said:

> > @clevited said:

> >** First, I think its pretty self explanatory why it would be a negative change**. The proposed change currently is a golf ball change. This change would lower distance because that is what is desired? By how much? By quite a bit if they want to fix the perceived problem. This would be absolutely noticeable, more so by the longer hitter. This has to logically be true. Think about it.

>

> I can't agree it is self explanatory. There weren't golf fans in the 80's going, "You know this would be a lot more entertaining if guys were just as a whole hitting it 20 yards further." The distance crept up over the years. It can be regulated back down over a number of years as well just as easily. The ball is only one way, perhaps the least intrusive way to do so. Where we stop depends upon what you value the game to be. I agree with your premise that it would impact the long hitter most and I'll get into it further in my post.

>

> > @clevited said:

> > Second, the solution to the perceived problem is to lengthen courses. This notion that you "need" to lengthen a course is logically incorrect. I mentioned previously that it increases distance. It has to. The shorter players will be even less common and you will have more and more Cameron Champs on tour. Did you see what was written about the longest tour pro's already having to hold back? It doesn't help them. There are diminishing returns with belting every single drive out there as far as possible. Let the players play the game as they see fit. **A course cannot be designed to have hazards in the needed locations for every player.** Also, par is just a number, the lowest score wins no matter how it is achieved.

>

> I agree with what you are saying here for the most part. I would offer that it is not that you need to lengthen the course per say, but rather that you need to add length to the distance to the hazards in the driving zone. If you could keep the hazards in the driving zone as architecturally intended, you would not need to add length for length's sake. But to keep those hazards where they hold your interest they have to be moved. You can certainly move a bunker, maybe a hump or bump, probably not a tree or dogleg or a speed slot. So the less expensive option to moving the hazards further out is to move the tee boxes farther back, which in turn adds length.

>

> You are absolutely correct that long courses favor long hitters. It doesn't challenge them, it widens the gap between them and the shorter guys and shrinks the field of guys who are capable of winning. You take a 130 person field and essentially cut it down to the longest 30 players or so.

>

> But do also keep in mind that PGA pros have options as to where and when they play. How many long guys play at Harbor Towne? They typically stay away from it because their distance is not rewarded. You want to play courses and set ups that reward and magnify your advantage. If you have to lay up a bunch then distance is negated. Everybody in the field can hit a tee ball 260. What club you use to do it is irrelevant.

>

> As to the bolded statement. You don't really need to keep them in the zone for every player. You really only need to ensure that everybody has a decision to make. A hazard you can carry by 50-60 yards there is no real decision.

>

> > @clevited said:

> > I think you can certainly initially lower driving distance with a high spinning ball, keyword, initially. The golf industry will find a way to lower it, just like a positive attack angle swing can do today, or hitting it higher on the face, or moving weight forward in the head, or changing a shaft, or shortening the club......there are ways around that. You want to see the game played a certain way, you have an idealized view of what golf should be. That is not a good enough reason in many's eyes to change the ball or any equipment involved in the game.

>

> Those club changes have repercussions as well. Shorter club decreases club head speed, decreases distance. More positive angle of attack could lead to balooning shots with a higher spinning ball. To gain back distance you go with a lower lofted driver with exacerbates side spin.

>

> It is not that I necessarily want to see the game played a certain way. It is more that courses are designed to accommodate a certain distance. At the pro level I think it is important to be able to compare this generation of golfer's skills to those of previous generations. I think it is unfortunate that the equipment has made it such that we are unable to do that. That is one aspect. The cost incurred by courses and therefor by all golfers in the attempt to keep the classic architecture relevant is another unfortunate outcome. How much money has an Aronomink or Cherry Hills or Merion incurred to keep the length needed? (Not that those places are hurting for cash.) But even other courses that aren't on PGA Tour rotation let alone Major rotation are victims of the same. College events are getting silly. I'll be the first to stand up and shout that par is just a number used to compare golfers during the round. But more interesting to me is that 440 yard holes are just driver wedge. Big difference between how that plays for someone who drives it 320 versus 280. 280 is not a short driving person by most standards. Driver, wedge versus driver, 7i.

>

> One day we will look back and realize that we had an opportunity to stop the downfall of golf. That may come across as melodramatic but I really do believe that there will come a day when players turn away from the game because it is not challenging and fulfilling. For a multitude of reasons some of the shot-making requirements are already gone. IF you don't thin equipment plays a role in that I encourage you to go pick up some forged blades and persimmons from the 70's or 80's. It is a completely different way to play than with modern clubs.

I appreciate your very well thought out and detailed responses. You have very good knowledge it seems of both sides of the issue which is refreshing. Personally however, I will never be able to view your side of the argument in a positive light. I can list reason after reason and back it up with as many facts and evidence as you could handle but it won't convince you nor anyone with their mind made up. I watched the game evolve in the past 30 years or so that I have been playing, I just don't have the same care as you do for comparing the skill of modern players to that of previous years. The game has evolved over the years. You can't compared Tiger, to Jack, to Hogan or to anyone from the dawn of the game. They all used different equipment, courses were different, trees and obstacles have grown bigger or are gone. One thing I know for sure is that ever single one of these players on tour are extremely good at the game. Many more have the luxury today to pursue sports and hobbies and bring it to a higher level. Like all sports, players will be driven to find a way to be better at it and they will succeed. Others will follow suit and it changes the game. Is it for the better or for the worse? I think it is neither. It is inevitable. You need to protect the game sure, to make sure it is still golf. No golf ball cannons that you load and fire off the first tee, no gps guided motorized golf balls...etc etc. Rules are in place, they are doing their job. Almost all golf courses do not need to change anything length or design wise. They are still plenty challenging for the vast majority of players. The ones on tour can choose to change if they feel they need to. The proposition is to change the ball for more than just the few that people are upset about. Their reasons aren't substantial enough in my opinion to do anything about it. Bifurcation also is not a thing I would ever support. If a person is honest and plays out how bifurcation would work out, they would know that the vast majority of amateur golfers would end up adopting the same ball over time. This is one of the few sports where you can directly compare yourself to people at all levels of the sport as the equipment is the same, and you can for the most part, go and play the same venues the pro's play.

I could go on and on and on and on, but I will save you from that novel.

QuigleyDU · October 14, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > >

> > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > >

> > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > >

> > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > >

> > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > >

> > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > >

> > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > >

> > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > >

> > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > >

> > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > >

> > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > >

> > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> >

> > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

>

> Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

mahonie · October 14, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > >

> > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > >

> > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > >

> > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > >

> > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > >

> > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > >

> > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> >

> > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

>

> I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

>

> Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

bigred90gt · October 14, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > >

> > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> >

> > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> >

> > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

>

> I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

>

> These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

>

> Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

Do you believe rolling back the ball will reverse any of that? You need to think about it logically, and there is no logic in that connection. What happens is you get the same kids on the range, they never even hit it to 200, then they walk away before ever even trying. Or you have people that have hit the ball a certain distance, know how to get around a course, suddenly having to relearn how to play. Someone that has been playing for 20 years having to relearn everything and adjust that much for how he plays will ultimately end up frustrated, and more people will walk away. Then you have the seniors that already top out at 200 yards on a good day, already hitting fairway woods into par 4s, suddenly realizing they cannot hit any of the or 4s in regulation with any combination of clubs in the bag, but not because they’re aging, instead because a select few people felt professionals hit the ball too far? How many of those guys walk away? There is no outcome for the game of golf that is positive by rolling back equipment. None. Zero.

QuigleyDU · October 15, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > >

> > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> >

> > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> >

> > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

>

> I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

>

> These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

>

> Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

I agree with you to a large extent. I do wonder though, I feel like “shootmaking” is kind of a myth. Sure, there is half wedges and high low. But left right? I am not sure really anyone ever did or does it to the extent they think they do.

QuigleyDU · October 15, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > > >

> > > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> > >

> > > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> > >

> > > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

> >

> > I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

> >

> > These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

> >

> > Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

>

> I agree with you to a large extent. I do wonder though, I feel like “shootmaking” is kind of a myth. Sure, there is half wedges and high low. But left right? I am not sure really anyone ever did or does it to the extent they think they do.

I can’t edit from my phone. So I will just add, I think scrambling is something different than shootmaking. We’ve scrambled, he was brilliant at it. But working the ball into pins?? I dont know.

Krt22 · October 15, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > > >

> > > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> > >

> > > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> > >

> > > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

> >

> > I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

> >

> > These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

> >

> > Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

>

> I agree with you to a large extent. I do wonder though, I feel like “shootmaking” is kind of a myth. Sure, there is half wedges and high low. But left right? I am not sure really anyone ever did or does it to the extent they think they do.

And when they do it, it's mainly to get out of jail. I'd say Tiger was one of the few who did it significantly during rounds and his struggles to curve the modern ball have been pretty well documented. He'd probably have a lot more majors if he just decided to hit straight balls all day lol.

Golfjack · October 15, 2019

> @clevited said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > But writing a book(s) does not make you an expert... Sorry.

> >

> > Wow. When you find yourself in a hole quit digging.

> >

>

> I certainly didn't/don't see him in any hole. I agree completely with Quigley. Geoff is very narrow minded and cares only about precious course architecture as does our beloved 15th on here. Times change, and reverting back to ye olden days tech wise is insane. Some people have a very subjective issue with how the game is played today, and some people are very sad to see historic courses not on the tour anymore, or being played in a manner they don't like. These are not good reasons at all to make a dramatic negative change to the entire sport.

>

> I will add one more thing to this debate and do my best to stay the **** away from this before I get completely sucked in to countering 15th's and others narrow mindedness or misconceptions/misinformation. If the USGA determines it needs to roll the ball back, what will they roll the ball back to? If you think about it, especially with the previously mentioned JB Holmes thing as well as a recent video of Tony Finau showing his true driving capabilities, the ball would need to be rolled back VERY dramatically. Then if you do that, power will become even more of a hot commodity and you will more than likely see more and more people with Cameron Champ like ability rising to the top because it will put an even larger premium on distance. A person also has to remember that the technical manner in which a roll back can happen is problematic. Do you lower ball speed? Do you add more spin? There are ways around both of these. Faster swingers again rise to the top, or you evolve equipment and technique to deal with the higher spin and nothing really changes.

From the golf.com article.

"From there, Finau punched the pedal to the floor three balls later, producing an eye-popping 194 mph ball speed with 11 degrees of launch (2300 RPMs spin) and a carry distance of 341 yards. Satisfied with the launch monitor numbers and what he saw during the testing session (as he should be!), Finau opted for the shorter driver."

Wow.

mahonie · October 15, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> > > >

> > > > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> > > >

> > > > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

> > >

> > > I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

> > >

> > > These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

> > >

> > > Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

> >

> > I agree with you to a large extent. I do wonder though, I feel like “shootmaking” is kind of a myth. Sure, there is half wedges and high low. But left right? I am not sure really anyone ever did or does it to the extent they think they do.

>

> I can’t edit from my phone. So I will just add, I think scrambling is something different than shootmaking. We’ve scrambled, he was brilliant at it. But working the ball into pins?? I dont know.

Tiger puts it across quite well. Watch from about 3:20:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CNKx_am69dU

gvogel · October 15, 2019

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> >

> > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> >

> > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

>

> Well, I said yes,,, but... how is any of the below true if it is 40% reduced?

>

> quickens play, improves course par, floats, addresses safety and environmental issues. (Made in USA) Meets US Golf Ball Standards.. Plus $26 for 3??!!

$26 for 12. You get four 3-packs.

DON SVO · October 15, 2019

> @Golfjack said:

>

> From the golf.com article.

>

> "From there, Finau punched the pedal to the floor three balls later, producing an eye-popping 194 mph ball speed with 11 degrees of launch (2300 RPMs spin) and a carry distance of 341 yards. Satisfied with the launch monitor numbers and what he saw during the testing session (as he should be!), Finau opted for the shorter driver."

>

> Wow.

I'm not sure if he's referencing the article, there's a very recent video with Tony teeing off during a practice round and they whip out the Trackman on the tee box. He caught one on the screws and it hit 200mph ball speed/137 swing speed with his gamer driver. They talk about golfers having "an extra gear", Tony has an extra transmission.

15th Club · October 15, 2019

mahonie I want to personally thank you for that brilliant comment. And thank you Mr. Woods.

Of course, the exact same comments about golf and course architecture could have been — no; HAVE BEEN — offered by every great Open champion. And Alister Mackenzie, Harry Colt, C.B. MacDonald, and now Tom Doak.

QuigleyDU · October 15, 2019

> @gvogel said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> > >

> > > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> > >

> > > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

> >

> > Well, I said yes,,, but... how is any of the below true if it is 40% reduced?

> >

> > quickens play, improves course par, floats, addresses safety and environmental issues. (Made in USA) Meets US Golf Ball Standards.. Plus $26 for 3??!!

>

> $26 for 12. You get four 3-packs.

Ok, when I look at the package image it looks like 3.

bigred90gt · October 15, 2019

> @gvogel said:

> Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

>

> So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

>

> Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

QuigleyDU · October 15, 2019

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> >

> > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> >

> > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

>

> I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

>

well, it is faster because it floats according to the balls website.

SNIPERBBB · October 15, 2019

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> >

> > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> >

> > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

>

> I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

>

You still gotta walk or ride all 4-7 miles of the golf course no matter what tees or call you play. Only time it can save is ball search time.

MidwestGolfBum · October 15, 2019

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> > >

> > > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> > >

> > > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

> >

> > I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

> >

>

> You still gotta walk or ride all 4-7 miles of the golf course no matter what tees or call you play. Only time it can save is ball search time.

My takeaway was that they were encouraging you to play more executive style courses but still being able to hit more clubs than you normally would because the ball doesn't go as far. Those aren't anywhere close to as long, meaning less time. I could see it being fun to take some out to a shorter course like that and still being able to hit longer clubs because of the distance loss.

SNIPERBBB · October 15, 2019

> @MidwestGolfBum said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> > > >

> > > > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> > > >

> > > > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

> > >

> > > I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

> > >

> >

> > You still gotta walk or ride all 4-7 miles of the golf course no matter what tees or call you play. Only time it can save is ball search time.

>

> My takeaway was that they were encouraging you to play more executive style courses but still being able to hit more clubs than you normally would because the ball doesn't go as far. Those aren't anywhere close to as long, meaning less time. I could see it being fun to take some out to a shorter course like that and still being able to hit longer clubs because of the distance loss.

You don't get to play faster because the ball is shorter

Period.it still takes 4.5 minutes to walk a 400 yard hole assuming average human walking speed. Your time between tee and approach shots will be faster but it doesn't make you walk any faster.

MidwestGolfBum · October 15, 2019

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @MidwestGolfBum said:

> > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > @bigred90gt said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > Just to entertain all of you, I have been playing reduced distance golf balls (Point Five) for the last couple of months, partially due to a torn shoulder rotator cuff tendon. My modern golf ball driving distance is down to around 210, and I hit the reduced distance ball around 175. The reduced distance ball is lighter and doesn't hurt anyway near as much as a Pro V1.

> > > > >

> > > > > So what do I do? Playing par 3 courses is fun, but I have also played my regular muni off the ladies tees, or even farther up on par 5's and longer par 4's. It is pretty much the same game, but on a smaller footprint. The reduced distance ball can still be hit crooked, or straight. Pitching is about the same. I will say that the lighter ball doesn't hold a line on the putting green as well as a regular ball. I will also say that speed of play is enhanced, since I get to the ball faster, and really bad shots don't fly as far off line.

> > > > >

> > > > > Those of you who don't want any changes to modern equipment should pick up a pack of Point Five balls, and figure out where you have to play to hit the same relative shots that you do now. Then come back here with your perspective, either changed or unchanged.

> > > >

> > > > I’m curious how exactly it will save time. Unless you are randomly planting a tee at whatever yardage you decide to hit from, you are still playing the full length of the course from a designated tee box, albeit a shorter tee box than the regular men’s tee. That would have minimal effect at best of overall pace of play. You still have to get to the ball and presumably hit the same number of shots. Can you elaborate and possibly clarify how it will save any time at all, let alone the “play in 1/2 the time” claim on the website?

> > > >

> > >

> > > You still gotta walk or ride all 4-7 miles of the golf course no matter what tees or call you play. Only time it can save is ball search time.

> >

> > My takeaway was that they were encouraging you to play more executive style courses but still being able to hit more clubs than you normally would because the ball doesn't go as far. Those aren't anywhere close to as long, meaning less time. I could see it being fun to take some out to a shorter course like that and still being able to hit longer clubs because of the distance loss.

>

> You don't get to play faster because the ball is shorter

> Period.it still takes 4.5 minutes to walk a 400 yard hole assuming average human walking speed. Your time between tee and approach shots will be faster but it doesn't make you walk any faster.

When you're playing a sub 4800 yard course it's going to take less time than when you are playing a 6000+ yard course. I'm not saying playing the 6000+ yard course from shorter distances, I'm talking playing a true executive course that is overall more compact, shorter walk. I have one near me that is 4670 for example so just over 2.6 miles. Walking half the distance of your 4-7 range you mentioned earlier, saves a pretty considerable amount of time. Playing a shorter ball on a course like that allows me to hit much longer clubs than I normally would because of the shortened length. I'm not saying it's my preferred method of play, but I can see the merits of the shorter ball for these situations.

Now, when we are talking about playing the same, shorter ball on a full sized course, I don't see how it can save time, either.

Ashley Schaeffer · October 15, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a fun addition.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh thanks for posting that. That is so beautiful. Five pros or quasi-pros, several of them literally under contract to Titleist/FJ/Acushnet (and Callaway), fighting with Geoff Shackelford who **knows more about golf course architecture than all of them combined**. Five versus one, in the case of Shackelford, isn't even a fair fight.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > How many Acushnet logos in that video? Charlie Rymer has his FJ on display; Michael Breed looks like an Acushnet NASCAR driver.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What a bunch of tools. There isn't a golf course in the country that could not be set up overnight to play beautifully at 5800 yards for a rolled back golf ball. And there are damned few golf courses anywhere in the world that play properly for modern elite-level players unless they are tweaked to the limit.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What an arrogant statement.... no one around the tee boxes huh?? (see below) what a tool. The reason there are not as many around the tee boxes is because there is simply not enough room.. I will use the words you said to me before. "if you do not like the current game, you are welcome to go play a different one".

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This idea that you can only roll the ball back is soo wrong it twist my head. There are hundreds of other things you can do.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Funny. The guy hitting the tee ball in that picture says the modern ball goes too far.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Things I wish I had written...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Still , there’s this. That picture is Sunday at the Masters where the 30,000 or so patrons have only one or two pairings to watch, in an area where foot traffic from 17 green and 15 tee are jammed into a small area flowing up the hill to the clubhouse.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > More significantly; what Geoff Shackelford could have said was that nobody cares about seeing the replay of a 343-yard drive on Golf Channel or SportsCenter. There’s no scale, no interest, **no relation to the course or scoring**.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > One of the most important and poetic things written about golf in the last 20 years is Geoff Shackelford’s line that “In no other sport are the venues in which the game is played as important and as fragile as in golf.”

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would disagree with you and with Geoff. There is a ton of interest in watching tour pros hit drives. It is simple the availability of space for grand stands. There is less interest in watching tour pro roll 5 footers for par over and over again in highlight reels.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > With statements like what I highlighted, its like you do not even play golf. Or at least you do not understand it. Other than the putter no other club makes as big of a difference to score as the driver. I may argue that the driver is more important considering how few times you hit it per round

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No, it isn’t just putter; it is shotmaking to, and around, imaginative green complexes. Those are the memorable shots in golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks of Hogan’s 1-iron at Merion. No one cares about his drive.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everyone thinks about Nicklaus rattling the flagstick on the 17th at Pebble to beat the field, or Watson’s chip in to beat Nicklaus.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know what it looks like when Bubba Watson hits a tee shot but the one indelible Bubba memory for me is seeing him spin an unbelievable shot out of the trees on the 10th hole at Augusta.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Speaking of Augusta, I submit what is probably the single most sublime shot of Fred Couples’ career; his second shot at 13 en route to a green jacket. That hole is one of several historic holes that virtually define golf’s distance problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But you leave out the Tee shot where Daly drove 18 into the wind, with hangover shakes at the old course,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the tee shot of bubba at Augusta where he carried all the trees,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Phil won the masters playing two different drivers one year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Greg Norman lost the masters to Faldo largely because he lost his accuracy off the tee with the driver and was getting double crossed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or the year the Tiger won his first masters, it was partly because off the tee he was further down the fairway than anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or Arnold Palmer driving the green at Cherry Hill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or that Brooks was quoted as say "I see driver'. When everyone else is laying up.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > OR Jean Van De Velde losing the open because of pulling driver when it was not needed..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See I can play this game too. I remember lots of drives there were hugely impactful.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s interesting that all the drives you remember are pre-Pro V1, except Bubba’s. Just shows how boring the modern game is.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t find it boring at all. Heck I watch things like the Houston open for Pete’s sake.

> > >

> > > Oh dear! I watched the last couple of holes and can’t remember who won let alone what their drives were like!! As an insomniac though I think I found a cure...so at least there’s that ;-)

> >

> > I am simply saying I like golf, and I am willing to watch at least some of every event that I can tune in to. I couldn't tell you anything specific either. Just that I watched some of it. I can watch old events like the shell world of golf events. Old masters footage and find enjoyment in all of it. I don't feel the need to hold on to the past to make it interesting. I think watching Rory hit driver now is one of the most fun things to watch on a golf course.

> >

> > Golf about the whole more than its parts, if distance is a problem, and if @"15th Club" changed his argument I may be convinced it is. But, if distance is a problem. You have to look at the whole. Not just a single part being the ball. You have to look at course set up other than length. You cannot make a course too long for tour pros. You have to look at equipment as a whole, not the just the ball. See my point? there are so many things that can be done. Other than just single out the ball.

>

> I love golf too...I live for the weekend to get out there and play. What concerns me though is that golf is literally dying before my eyes. I’ve had club membership for 10 years and the number of members has dropped by 50% in that time. The average age must be well over 50. There are no kids coming through at all and my club is pretty typical. This may sound old-fashioned but golf is being driven from the wrong angle. You are right about about golf being more than its parts. I learnt to play from the green back to the tee. The local putting green...the pitch and putt...9 hole municipal...then a full-size 18 hole course. I’d been playing golf for 3 years before I graduated to a proper course...but I’d had so much fun learning. To this day, my favourite type of hole is a par 3.

>

> These days kids get on the driving range and just want to smash driver after driver. Once they hit it past 200 yards they think they can walk onto the first tee and shoot par! When they find there’s more to golf than bombing it and flicking it onto the green they just give up. People forget that it’s the shotmaking that is the real fun element...challenging yourself to pull off that 5-iron baby fade to get to that pin cut at the back right of the green to make birdie is more fun than hitting your stock 6-iron to the middle of the green and hoping for 2 putts.

>

> Name one great shot maker this side of Tiger, apart from Bubba...I’m struggling to be honest. The skills that Seve, Norman, Faldo, Trevino, etc had was what got me into the game...not so much Nicklaus and his long game. (I’ve come to realise just how good a shot maker Jack was when you look at today’s pros btw). I get it that time moves on but dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator of distance is not the answer.

Interesting post. I don't necessarily disagree. However, your opinion doesn't matter. Neither does mine. Or, at least they shouldn't. For every One of you or I, there are 100 or more who don't know or care about the difference between a stock 6 or a feathered punch-cut 5 in their Thursday Night Men's league or when watching on TV after mowing the lawn. They like to see players hit it far and try to do it themselves, but I think we'd be pretty ignorant to assume that they don't care about hitting irons, wedges, and putters well. Those are the people who should be the target market to "Grow the Game". The people on the fringe. The ones who might sell their clubs next year and take up tennis or spikeball. Golf already has people like us for life. We aren't leaving.

People say they want to"Grow the Game", but really it's more like "Grow the Game, as long it's in the exact manner and direction I want." As for the USGA (and friends), it honestly feels that they are trying to work backward from a conclusion to ensure that there is only one viable solution to a "problem", when the cross section of players required to truly grow the game simply do not see a problem. Either act in accordance with your motto, or change it.

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