What crucial putting distances determine score

[bladehunter]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> I was thinking more along the lines of inside 100 yards. On tour you have to be 174th to average 20 feet or worse.

 

Yep. Ginormous difference between inside 100 and 125. A lob wedge just isn’t going to stray that far offline. It’s all about distance control from 95 down. Not side to side at all.

[aenemated]

A great thing I took from reading "Lowest Score Wins" is that there's really not a HUGE difference between the putting of your average amateur and your average pro.

 

The authors make a great point in that ... if you were going to put on a competition and it be a pro vs. a total novice; would you put them up to putt or closest to the hole from 100 yards out? (Or something like that)

 

Obviously in putting, the total novice will fare much better.

 

I feel like if you can make most inside of 5 feet; you're about as good as you really need to be with putting. Once you get to 10 feet and more, no one makes a majority of them.

[jim rockford]

grunching.

 

gotta lag your long putts, must make some putts up to 15 feet. and need to make putts 6 feet or less............ easier said than done.........

 

i wish more golf courses would put the straight chalk line on the practice green for a short putt. so that we can calibrate read/aim/execute.

[jim rockford]

watched tons of tour golf live, and caddied alot on canadian tour.

 

beyond the obvious stuff (distance), i'm most shocked by how "dialed in" the players are on their wedges... they are good on inside 10 foot putts too. longer putts they don't make that many, but i'm guessing when they shoot 62 that that is the biggest factor....... caddied with a prominent UGA grad. shot 70. said his putting was terrible. 2 weeks later he shot 59. so i guess his putting improved.

[nitram]

As mentioned, NOBODY is 85% on 10-footers on any tour. And I'll venture to say MAYBE 1 in 300 am's are there when they play exclusively on their home track. Being 85% on 6 footers is a more realistic goal (and that's tough) when we are discussing these putts attempted during a scored round and not the practice green. Getting that 10 footer down in 2 is almost as important as making the damned thing. How many 3-4 jacks have you witnessed and/or experienced from this distance? Those are what destroys your chance at shooting low. Having a tap-in 2 putt from 10. 20, even 30 ft. is crucial to scoring low because all of us will be faced with being in this position more often than 5 ft. and in.

 

Shooting in the 60's results from a combination of all facets of the game. One can be stronger than the other but not by much. Personally I can't hit it 300 off the tee anymore and have to rely on fairways hit, good ball striking, better up and down game, and putting to keep me scoring low.

 

Just be realistic in your expectations and work on your challenges to get where you want to be. Good Luck.

[deathbymuffin]

for me it's 5' and in. by all accounts i'm a solid putter from outside of this range. but i miss way too many of the ones i'm supposed to make due to mental reasons (FEAR). and once i lose whatever confidence i had, putts in the 10"-2' range become a real adventure for me (and source of amusement for my playing partners).

[Hawkeye77]

> @tiger1873 said:

> So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

>

> Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

>

> It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

>

>

 

Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

[tiger1873]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> > So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

> >

> > Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

> >

> > It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

> >

> >

>

> Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

 

 

That is within 10 feet so it includes 3ft putts along with 10 ft. If you not making 80-85% of the putts which are within 10 feet during a round your in big trouble. Too many stats focus on just one distance.

 

Look at this way if you are putting within 10 feet including lag putts on 18 holes your making making 14 -15 putts a round within 10 feet.

[jim rockford]

has any golf pro done an article on tiers of improvement?

 

really sharp putting has to be to shoot low scores......

 

of course with a teenage and a seniors 7-handicap you find there is far more than 1 way to get to that level...

 

but for OP, good short game (almost no 3 putts), no penalty strokes, no flubs will get you into low to mid 80s i think. as i said, easier said than done........

 

it's painful but necessary for me to say, but at some point course management becomes extremely important too...... no reason to hit driver on tight par 5 or long par 4 that you can't make in 2 shots. and being able to make it in 2 shots DOES NOT mean your best of 100 drives, and then the best of your 100 2nd shots. that's actually 10,000 attempts........... hitting driver is FUN, you have to decide whether you want to maximize fun or minimize score.

[RichieHunt]

If you want to go 'low' or shoot your best round ever, it's a combination of ballstriking and putting (no big revelation there), but it's more about ballstriking than putting as the handicap lowers. Very high handicaps (20+) are a little more likely to shoot their lowest rounds ever thru putting just because their ballstriking and putting is so bad. But if they are doing it via putting, they are likely making putts outside 20-feet which come down to luck and random occurrence.

 

The super low rounds on Tour are primarily ballstriking, in particular the ability to hit iron shots close. And I think if you look at the data, it's hard to quantify but you can see that phenomenal ballstriking and good putting tend to go together. You rarely see phenomenal ballstriking and poor putting. You may see good ballstriking and poor putting. But it appears that when a player is really on fire with their ballstriking that they are 'in the zone' and it carries over with the putter. But I think that also goes to show that you can try as hard as you want and you're never going to strike the ball phenomenally with any consistency. You can be good to great a lot of the time, but phenomenal is a different story.

 

Wedges are the most overrated part of the game. To go super low on Tour you're just not going to get a lot of wedges. You're going to have to stick your shots from 150-200 yards. The average prox 2 cup from 150 yards on Tour (from fairway or par-3 tee box) is roughly 27 feet. A player that is striking it phenomenally well will put it closer to 18-feet (on average) from 150- yards. From 175-yards Tour average is 31.5 feet, phenomenal ballstriking will put it inside 21-ft. 200 yards it's 36 feet for Tour avg and phenomenal will put it inside 25-feet.

 

Mini Tour events may be where sticking wedges can be more important as a lot of the times the courses play shorter.

 

What's pretty interesting is the guys that have shot 59 and 58 have not been very long off the tee, but quite accurate. Generally, hitting it long is a distinct advantage over the long run. My thinking with the phenomenon about going *that* low is that you'll need to keep it in the fairway in order to have the best chance at hitting approach shots close to the hole. If you're in the rough too much, even phenomenal ballstriking isn't going to get your close to the hole enough if you're hitting from the rough.

 

If you want to improve your handicap the most over time, ballstriking is where most of the strokes come from. Higher handicaps = more important driving becomes to lower handicap. Lower handicap = iron play more important to lowering scores. Putting is somewhere in the middle for all handicaps. And if you want to improve your putting in the long run, ams need to work on putts from 3-15 feet. For Tour players, it's more from 5-15 feet. Don't get too worried about missing putts outside 15-feet or too excited about making putts outside 15-feet as they will move towards the mean over time.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[MonteScheinblum]

> @RichieHunt said:

> If you want to go 'low' or shoot your best round ever, it's a combination of ballstriking and putting (no big revelation there), but it's more about ballstriking than putting as the handicap lowers. Very high handicaps (20+) are a little more likely to shoot their lowest rounds ever thru putting just because their ballstriking and putting is so bad. But if they are doing it via putting, they are likely making putts outside 20-feet which come down to luck and random occurrence.

>

> The super low rounds on Tour are primarily ballstriking, in particular the ability to hit iron shots close. And I think if you look at the data, it's hard to quantify but you can see that phenomenal ballstriking and good putting tend to go together. You rarely see phenomenal ballstriking and poor putting. You may see good ballstriking and poor putting. But it appears that when a player is really on fire with their ballstriking that they are 'in the zone' and it carries over with the putter. But I think that also goes to show that you can try as hard as you want and you're never going to strike the ball phenomenally with any consistency. You can be good to great a lot of the time, but phenomenal is a different story.

>

> Wedges are the most overrated part of the game. To go super low on Tour you're just not going to get a lot of wedges. You're going to have to stick your shots from 150-200 yards. The average prox 2 cup from 150 yards on Tour (from fairway or par-3 tee box) is roughly 27 feet. A player that is striking it phenomenally well will put it closer to 18-feet (on average) from 150- yards. From 175-yards Tour average is 31.5 feet, phenomenal ballstriking will put it inside 21-ft. 200 yards it's 36 feet for Tour avg and phenomenal will put it inside 25-feet.

>

> Mini Tour events may be where sticking wedges can be more important as a lot of the times the courses play shorter.

>

> What's pretty interesting is the guys that have shot 59 and 58 have not been very long off the tee, but quite accurate. Generally, hitting it long is a distinct advantage over the long run. My thinking with the phenomenon about going *that* low is that you'll need to keep it in the fairway in order to have the best chance at hitting approach shots close to the hole. If you're in the rough too much, even phenomenal ballstriking isn't going to get your close to the hole enough if you're hitting from the rough.

>

> If you want to improve your handicap the most over time, ballstriking is where most of the strokes come from. Higher handicaps = more important driving becomes to lower handicap. Lower handicap = iron play more important to lowering scores. Putting is somewhere in the middle for all handicaps. And if you want to improve your putting in the long run, ams need to work on putts from 3-15 feet. For Tour players, it's more from 5-15 feet. Don't get too worried about missing putts outside 15-feet or too excited about making putts outside 15-feet as they will move towards the mean over time.

>

>

>

>

>

> RH

 

 

Words to live by. ^^^^^^^^^^€

 

It really upsets me hearing the drive for show, putt for dough and it’s all in the short game. Work on your wedges.

 

Etc.

 

Let me put it this way. Let’s say you average 30 feet from the hole from 70 yards...and you improve dramatically to make that 18 feet. Your scores won’t really go down much, if at all...because you still aren’t making the next putt. Sure you will miss a few less geeks and 3 putt a few less times.

 

Same thing goes for short game. If you work your ass off and improve distance from the hole from 30 yards and in by 30%, scored won’t go down that much.

 

Now if you’re terrible and chunk and blade these shots and miss greens with wedges, improving those skills will help...obviously.

 

If you are slicing every tee shot in the garage, improving that will help you.

 

Hitting it farther is going to make you better.

 

Improving all facets of the game will help you.

 

However, watching people of different skill levels all day every day, hitting it more solid from 150-200 is where you will see the greatest difference.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

...and typos not withstanding. ?

[TIM929]

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > If you want to go 'low' or shoot your best round ever, it's a combination of ballstriking and putting (no big revelation there), but it's more about ballstriking than putting as the handicap lowers. Very high handicaps (20+) are a little more likely to shoot their lowest rounds ever thru putting just because their ballstriking and putting is so bad. But if they are doing it via putting, they are likely making putts outside 20-feet which come down to luck and random occurrence.

> >

> > The super low rounds on Tour are primarily ballstriking, in particular the ability to hit iron shots close. And I think if you look at the data, it's hard to quantify but you can see that phenomenal ballstriking and good putting tend to go together. You rarely see phenomenal ballstriking and poor putting. You may see good ballstriking and poor putting. But it appears that when a player is really on fire with their ballstriking that they are 'in the zone' and it carries over with the putter. But I think that also goes to show that you can try as hard as you want and you're never going to strike the ball phenomenally with any consistency. You can be good to great a lot of the time, but phenomenal is a different story.

> >

> > Wedges are the most overrated part of the game. To go super low on Tour you're just not going to get a lot of wedges. You're going to have to stick your shots from 150-200 yards. The average prox 2 cup from 150 yards on Tour (from fairway or par-3 tee box) is roughly 27 feet. A player that is striking it phenomenally well will put it closer to 18-feet (on average) from 150- yards. From 175-yards Tour average is 31.5 feet, phenomenal ballstriking will put it inside 21-ft. 200 yards it's 36 feet for Tour avg and phenomenal will put it inside 25-feet.

> >

> > Mini Tour events may be where sticking wedges can be more important as a lot of the times the courses play shorter.

> >

> > What's pretty interesting is the guys that have shot 59 and 58 have not been very long off the tee, but quite accurate. Generally, hitting it long is a distinct advantage over the long run. My thinking with the phenomenon about going *that* low is that you'll need to keep it in the fairway in order to have the best chance at hitting approach shots close to the hole. If you're in the rough too much, even phenomenal ballstriking isn't going to get your close to the hole enough if you're hitting from the rough.

> >

> > If you want to improve your handicap the most over time, ballstriking is where most of the strokes come from. Higher handicaps = more important driving becomes to lower handicap. Lower handicap = iron play more important to lowering scores. Putting is somewhere in the middle for all handicaps. And if you want to improve your putting in the long run, ams need to work on putts from 3-15 feet. For Tour players, it's more from 5-15 feet. Don't get too worried about missing putts outside 15-feet or too excited about making putts outside 15-feet as they will move towards the mean over time.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > RH

>

>

> Words to live by. ^^^^^^^^^^€

>

> It really upsets me hearing the drive for show, putt for dough and it’s all in the short game. Work on your wedges.

>

> Etc.

>

> Let me put it this way. Let’s say you average 30 feet from the hole from 70 yards...and you improve dramatically to make that 18 feet. Your scores won’t really go down much, if at all...because you still aren’t making the next putt. Sure you will miss a few less geeks and 3 putt a few less times.

>

> Same thing goes for short game. If you work your **** off and improve distance from the hole from 30 yards and in by 30%, scored won’t go down that much.

>

> Now if you’re terrible and chunk and blade these shots and miss greens with wedges, improving those skills will help...obviously.

>

> If you are slicing every tee shot in the garage, improving that will help you.

>

> Hitting it farther is going to make you better.

>

> Improving all facets of the game will help you.

>

> However, watching people of different skill levels all day every day, hitting it more solid from 150-200 is where you will see the greatest difference.

>

 

Thank you Rich and Monte.

[Krt22]

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

> > >

> > > Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

> > >

> > > It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

>

>

> That is within 10 feet so it includes 3ft putts along with 10 ft. If you not making 80-85% of the putts which are within 10 feet during a round your in big trouble. Too many stats focus on just one distance.

>

> Look at this way if you are putting within 10 feet including lag putts on 18 holes your making making 14 -15 putts a round within 10 feet.

 

There are PGA tour pros that don't make 85% inside 10ft while they get to putt on perfect greens, so not really a a requirement to break 80.

[RichieHunt]

When Furyk shot 59 at the BMW Championship (which was technically a better round than his 58 at TPC River Highlands)….he gained +4.089 strokes putting, but he also gained +8.122 strokes – approach.

 

Here’s a look at the putts he had (in feet)

 

8.8 (made for birdie)

2.8 (made for birdie)

4.1 (made for birdie)

19.0 (missed for birdie)

3.0 (made for birdie)

0 (made the eagle shot on the approach)

14.7 (missed for birdie)

8.1 (made for birdie)

10.8 (made for birdie)

16.2 (missed for birdie)

13.3 (made for birdie)

26.0 (made for birdie)

5.4 (made for birdie)

28.9 (missed and 3-putted for bogey)

22.8 (missed for birdie)

11.4 (made for birdie)

17.1 (missed for birde)

3.4 (made for birdie)

 

When this happened I went on Strackaline and got a rough estimate as to what types of putt he was making. Interestingly enough, he only had 3 putts that had significant break to them (making 1 of them). The other putts were all close to the zero line or too short to have any significant break.

 

That’s why you can’t rely on good putting. Putting is important, but you might just get a day where you’re getting a lot of putts towards the 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock position of the fall line (the most break) and the next day you may be getting a lot of putts closer to the 12 o’clock or 6 o’clock positon (the least break).

 

That’s why even the best putters in the world don’t putt great every round, but they are more adept at avoiding terrible rounds of putting.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

[juststeve]

You might not be able to rely on putting to shoot 59, but better putting will make the vast majority of golfers better than they are now. Furyk shooting 59 has little to do with my efforts to equal or even beat the course rating.

 

Steve

[SNIPERBBB]

> @juststeve said:

> You might not be able to rely on putting to shoot 59, but better putting will make the vast majority of golfers better than they are now. Furyk shooting 59 has little to do with my efforts to equal or even beat the course rating.

>

> Steve

 

Improving anything will make you better. How much better is the problem, especially with putting. Birdies on at least half the Par 5's and playing even with a few gift birdies will break course rating on all but the shortest sub 70 rated courses.

[Popeye64]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Getting into the 60s is more about giving yourself birdie putts and when miss the green, your getting yourself inside 5 feet to save par consistently.

 

The ability to get up and down is something that doesnt get enough credit for going low consistently

[SNIPERBBB]

> @Popeye64 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > Getting into the 60s is more about giving yourself birdie putts and when miss the green, your getting yourself inside 5 feet to save par consistently.

>

> The ability to get up and down is something that doesnt get enough credit for going low consistently

 

Which is why I only could get down to a 2.9 index this year...my chipping has been kinda streaky. I covered it will making a ton of birdies and pulling a lot of putts out of my backside.

[Krt22]

> @juststeve said:

> You might not be able to rely on putting to shoot 59, but better putting will make the vast majority of golfers better than they are now. Furyk shooting 59 has little to do with my efforts to equal or even beat the course rating.

>

> Steve

 

No, but it shows just much score correlates with ball striking. Furyk shot 59 while only making a single putt outside of 15 feet. But he hit every single green, had 11 birdie looks inside 15ft, and didnt have a single putt longer than 30ft. So the OPs notion that the most important area is from 15-25ft doesnt seem like the key, but instead constantly hitting it close.

[Hawkeye77]

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

> > >

> > > Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

> > >

> > > It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

>

>

> That is within 10 feet so it includes 3ft putts along with 10 ft. If you not making 80-85% of the putts which are within 10 feet during a round your in big trouble. Too many stats focus on just one distance.

>

> Look at this way if you are putting within 10 feet including lag putts on 18 holes your making making 14 -15 putts a round within 10 feet.

 

Look at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

[tiger1873]

A > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

> > > >

> > > > Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

> > > >

> > > > It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

> >

> >

> > That is within 10 feet so it includes 3ft putts along with 10 ft. If you not making 80-85% of the putts which are within 10 feet during a round your in big trouble. Too many stats focus on just one distance.

> >

> > Look at this way if you are putting within 10 feet including lag putts on 18 holes your making making 14 -15 putts a round within 10 feet.

>

> Look at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

 

I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

 

30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

 

It’s okay though that stat will bounce off your head because you don’t want to believe it.

 

[Krt22]

You can get all the pro stats on the PGA tour website and Every Shot Count details make percentage by distance for pros and amatuers, tons of tangible stats out there is no need to guess or hypothesize. There are absolutely some pros that do not make more than 85% of all putts inside 10ft, guys whos job is to play golf and practice/play hours per day, so to expect that from someone just to break 80 isnt realistic

 

Putts per round is a deceiving stat because it does not at all take into account first putt length, which is the biggest difference between professionals and amateurs. When pros play lights out with very few putts, sometimes its pure putting skill (ie Kevin Nas recent win) but a lot of the time its from ball striking, consistently hitting it close and leaving themselves makeable/short putts. So no, you do not need to putt like a PGA tour pro to break 80, it might help, but the main thing you need to do is hit the ball better

[SNIPERBBB]

> @tiger1873 said:

at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

>

> I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

>

> 30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

>

 

Here's the thing, the best players on tour are only averaging 12-13 GIR. That means if they two putt every green with 12 GIR, that's 24 putts and they get up and down on the ones they miss, that's 30 putts a round.

 

[tiger1873]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

> >

> > I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

> >

> > 30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

> >

>

> Here's the thing, the best players on tour are only averaging 12-13 GIR. That means if they two putt every green with 12 GIR, that's 24 putts and they get up and down on the ones they miss, that's 30 putts a round.

>

 

If you chip within 6’ your a very good chipper. So again there making those putts within 10 feet.

 

Also if you good enough you don’t need to hit the GIR every time to make par. They do this by combo good chip and putting.

 

When it comes to golf a 1” putt or 5’ all count the same. To improve scores you have to reliably get the ball in the hole and not be relying on a lucky shot or putt to make birdie.

 

Striking the ball good is only one component but if you can hit well but have to 2 putt everything your looking at 36 putts and your not going to have a very good score.

 

There is a combination of skills. But a crucial skill for sure is the ability to putt.

[Hawkeye77]

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

> > >

> > > I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

> > >

> > > 30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

> > >

> >

> > Here's the thing, the best players on tour are only averaging 12-13 GIR. That means if they two putt every green with 12 GIR, that's 24 putts and they get up and down on the ones they miss, that's 30 putts a round.

> >

>

> If you chip within 6’ your a very good chipper. So again there making those putts within 10 feet.

>

> Also if you good enough you don’t need to hit the GIR every time to make par. They do this by combo good chip and putting.

>

> When it comes to golf a 1” putt or 5’ all count the same. To improve scores you have to reliably get the ball in the hole and not be relying on a lucky shot or putt to make birdie.

>

> Striking the ball good is only one component but if you can hit well but have to 2 putt everything your looking at 36 putts and your not going to have a very good score.

>

> There is a combination of skills. But a crucial skill for sure is the ability to putt.

 

You've been given and have ready access to stats and have been given input from at least one expert above (just look at Furyk's proximity for one round example and extrapolate from there with averages).

 

You are wrong. Pros don't average making 80-85% from 10 feet over the course of all their rounds in a year. Wrong.

 

To suggest ams need to do this to break 80 suggests meeting an unattainable standard (which isn't even attained by the best golfers in the world).

 

You asked - but when given real answers just keep repeating what was your apparent mindset from the beginning. That is something other than wrong.

 

 

[RichieHunt]

> @juststeve said:

> You might not be able to rely on putting to shoot 59, but better putting will make the vast majority of golfers better than they are now. Furyk shooting 59 has little to do with my efforts to equal or even beat the course rating.

>

> Steve

 

Any improvement in any part of the game will improve a golfer's score. If your fairway bunker play improves and the rest of the game stays the same...your scores will improve over time. It just matters by how much they will improve and the level of difficulty (in particular...time) to improve.

 

Would I be better off improving my fairway bunker play or my putting? The obvious answer is putting. Why? Because the improvement of putting has a greater impact on score.

 

But the same applies to striking the ball better vs. putting.

 

Dr. Mark Broadie recounted an experiment done years ago in his book _Every Shot Counts_ where they had a high handicapper and a Tour player play together and the Tour player had to putt for the high handicapper while the amateur hits all of the non-putts and vice versa. The end result was the Tour player, hitting his own shots but having the high handicapper putting for him shot 72. But the high handicapper who hit his own shots and had the Tour player putt for him shot 90.

 

The question comes down to how much the particular player can improve and their desire to do so.

 

I think working on putting is likely the most efficient form of practice in terms of improvement versus effort and the likelihood of improvement. I could work 24/7 on my swing and never come close to hitting it like Dustin Johnson for even 1 round. But, I could work an hour a week on my putting and have some rounds where I putt better than whomever #1 in SG - Putting is. And I could work 5 hours a week on my putting and have more rounds where I putt better than say Jason Day. But there's more of a diminishing returns with putting in particular because like Jason Day...you're not going to bring good putting with you every day. With better ballstriking you can separate your ballstriking from inferior ballstriking more often. And that will have a larger impact on your handicap than putting.

 

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

> @tiger1873 said:

> A > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > > So here is the thing I am noticing a lot people can easily sink putts inside of 10 feet. If you can sink 80%-85% from within 10 feet you will be able to make a ton a pars if you can hit the green. if you can not sink these putts breaking 80 is almost impossible because your going to 3 putting. A lot amateurs are here in how they play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also how close do you think on average a player can reasonable get to the pin even with great iron shots? Looking at the stats 15' average seems almost too good. So taking that into account anything closer to 10 feet can just be attributed to random luck.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not that you have to be great at 15 or 20 foot putts it's just you have to at least make some. Looking at pga pro stats I am seeing they make anywhere from 20-30% so on 18 holes (taking an average from pin distance) there making 3-6 birdies a round. Most amateurs probably are lucky to make 1 long putt every 18 holes.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nobody makes 80-85% from within 10 feet, so it's not why someone may start breaking 80.

> > >

> > >

> > > That is within 10 feet so it includes 3ft putts along with 10 ft. If you not making 80-85% of the putts which are within 10 feet during a round your in big trouble. Too many stats focus on just one distance.

> > >

> > > Look at this way if you are putting within 10 feet including lag putts on 18 holes your making making 14 -15 putts a round within 10 feet.

> >

> > Look at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

>

> I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

>

> 30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

>

> It’s okay though that stat will bounce off your head because you don’t want to believe it.

>

 

It's not hard to believe, it's just a misleading statistic.

 

Let's say I look at the statistic and say to myself '_I should just work on all putts inside 10-feet_'

 

So, I should work on 1-foot putts? That's inside 10-feet, right?

 

No, because you should make 99%+ of your 1-foot putts even if you have no skill level putting.

 

And if you take all putts inside 10-feet it's not a good measure of a player's putting ability because of likely sample bias. In particular, worse ballstrikers are more likely to make a higher percentage of putts from inside 10-feet because they are often chipping the ball to shorter distances inside 10-feet or if they hit the green they are not hitting the green inside 10-feet and hitting their first putt to tap in range.

 

But when you look at the correlation between make % at smaller distance increments and Strokes Gained - Putting (or the correlation between make % and score) the putting distance that matters most for Tour players is from 5-15 feet and for amateurs it's from 3-15 feet.

 

So you're not too far off on the importance on putts inside 10-feet, but it should be stated as putts from 3-15 feet for amateurs. I think the best way to break it down is to hit putts from 4 feet, 7.5 feet and 12.5 feet in terms of practice.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[SNIPERBBB]

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > at it this way - you just don’t know what you are talking about.

> > >

> > > I am pretty sure that a good chunk of putts are made by most pro within 10 feet. If not then there 3 putting a lot which clearly is not happening.

> > >

> > > 30 putts or less a round is pretty standard for a good player. To make less then 30 you need to be making a high percentage of 3-10 feet. If not the numbers do not add up.

> > >

> >

> > Here's the thing, the best players on tour are only averaging 12-13 GIR. That means if they two putt every green with 12 GIR, that's 24 putts and they get up and down on the ones they miss, that's 30 putts a round.

> >

>

> If you chip within 6’ your a very good chipper. So again there making those putts within 10 feet.

>

> Also if you good enough you don’t need to hit the GIR every time to make par. They do this by combo good chip and putting.

>

> When it comes to golf a 1” putt or 5’ all count the same. To improve scores you have to reliably get the ball in the hole and not be relying on a lucky shot or putt to make birdie.

>

> Striking the ball good is only one component but if you can hit well but have to 2 putt everything your looking at 36 putts and your not going to have a very good score.

>

> There is a combination of skills. But a crucial skill for sure is the ability to putt.

 

Unless you're on tour if I give you 18 GIRs and you shot even par, I'd think you'd be happy with that score. You'll come down with shouldofbeenbetter flu.

[TheCityGame]

Snedeker's 59 is on youTube. Every shot. And in the graphic, they show what his career average proximity to the hole is on all the shots he's hitting, and he basically just blows his averages away.

 

 

He actually misses a 5 footer for par on his first hole (10). He missed a 6 footer on his 17th.

 

The takeaway from that round -- at least in terms of this the discussion in this thread -- is to watch his front and back. He goes 32-27.

 

He hits the ball OK and makes some bombs on the front. But, even with the bombs, it's "just" a 32. He is probably a little above average SG : T2G, but definitely gains a few SG:P.

 

But, on his back (front), it's pretty much entirely ball striking. He actually misses a 6 footer on 8, and then makes a longish putt on 9.

 

I threw in my estimates of his SG putting on this 9 holes. . .

 

4 feet with a 9 iron. (.02 sgp?)

Wedge to a couple feet. (.01 sgp?)

Mid iron to 5 feet. (.25 sgp?)

Then he misses a 40 footer. (0 sgp)

2 foot birdie on a par 5. (0 sgp)

Then a dunk shot with a 7 iron where he career proximity is 30 feet.

From 224, he hits one to 2/3 feet. (.01 sgp)

Wedge to 6 feet (which he MISSES) (-.5 sgp)

He has a long-ish putt for the 59, but it looks dead straight. (+.9 sgp)

 

Which would leave him at about +7.5 SG T2G.

 

I would bet my house no one has ever gone +.5 SG : T2G for 9 holes and shot 8 under par.