Will GHIN website make new World Handicap score adjustments automatically?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

It seemed to work well in the USA without it. How can we say it worked well in Australia? Your response doesn't address the potential issues I outlined.

[davep043]

There is an option to divide the day into segments for two different PCC values, I don't know what the mechanics will be. But even without it, isn't it better to get things closer to "right" by considering it, rather than completely ignoring significant variations from typical scoring distribution? Presumably, statistical folks have designed the sustem, to consider the size of the data set when considering a PCC, fewer scores will require greater departure from the "standard" for the same PCC value. And last, the scores considered in determining the PCC must be posted on the day of play. If you post the following day and date it correctly for the day you played, your score will be adjusted, but you will have been ignored when determining the size of the adjustment. You can post next month, and you'll still get the PCC applied.

I haven't checked the rules when writing this answer, but I believe the answers to each of these questions is freely available at: Rules of Handicaping

[Shilgy]

As a reminder...at least by my understanding the PCC will not “level the playing field “ so to speak on scoring. Meaning a day where the scores are just one stroke higher than the norm will not be adjusted by a PCC. And unless the scores really really really soar high on a day there is the minimum of 8 scores there would be no adjustment on such a day. The lords of golf do realize that the game is played outdoors and things change. There seems to be much ado about ...well not nothing but darn close when it comes to the PCC. It will not be a daily adjustment to your index.

The cutoff, as Dave mentions above, is midnight. Scores posted the same day will be a part of the calculation. Scores added later will be impacted by the PCC(on the rare occasion there is one) but obviously will not be part of the calculation.

 

To reiterate what I have posted prior at the WHS seminar I attended we were told to expect maybe 5 days with a PCC adjustment per year. Yes, I am in Phoenix where weather is relatively mild but even here we have more like 5 days a month where it seems some expect an adjustment. And that just is not gonna happen.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I wonder what PCC means to alternative services like "the Grint" that don't have access to all the daily scores for a PCC adjustment? Does it kill their business?

[Newby]

Presumably not well enough for the USGA. Of course everywhere else have had eqivlent processes

[Deceptively Short]

It’ll be interesting to see how the PCC works in the UK because with the current SSS & CSS System, the daily rating (CSS) could be different for home players and visitors on a competition day. I assume this meant that a large amount of visiting golfers and their unfamiliarity with the course would skew the result and artificially raise the CSS for home players.

I have not heard of this split happening in WHS so I assume it is believed that the new calculation of daily rating is good enough to overcome this or maybe this is just an acceptable compromise.

[Newby]

I guess the latter. If and when CONGU gets round to 'casual play' or matchplay scores, it would make life even more complicated as more away players start returning score. In this neck of the woods there are many inter-club competitions played as matchplay.

[davep043]

I've gone back and forth in my mind about this. Since the Grint offers official USGA Handicap services, they must be licensed by the USGA to do so. My guess is that scores posted to the Grint will be posted into the WHS cloud, and be included in determining PCC. I would further guess that once the PCC is established, it would be communicated back to services like the Grint. This is complete speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps we have some continuing Grint customers who can ask the Grint directly how it will work for them.

[jvincent]

From an implementation perspective I have to assume that PCC is calculated and stored in a common database. So assuming the Grint has access to the USGA course database for ratings/slope/scores I would assume that it has access to the daily PCC values as well.

Since play has started in the US, has anyone seen any PCC adjustments yet?

[nsxguy]

Don't know if it would kill their business but, from their site (today of course),The Handicap Index is intended to represent a golfer’s potential ability. Therefore, it is not calculated using the Score Average. The Handicap is calculated using the Handicap Differentials of your best rounds.The Handicap Differential is:(ESC Score – Course Rating ) *113 / Slope RatingSo, the more Scores you have uploaded to your TheGrint Account, the more accurate your Handicap Index will be. And once you have 20 or more Scores uploaded, the Handicap will use only the Lowest 10 Handicap Differentials out of your last 20 Scores you uploaded. After those Differentials are calculated you average them and then Multiply them by 96% (.96)And there is your Golf Handicap Index!

[nsxguy]

I've gone back and forth in my mind about this. Since the Grint offers official USGA Handicap services, they must be licensed by the USGA to do so.

Reading their site they word everything so as to give that impression. See above post from their site. If they were "official" they surely wouldn't still have that (still) posted.

And in their FAQs, under "Do I get a GHIN # with my TheGrint account ?""We actually do not provide a GHIN #. GHIN and TheGrint are two different Handicap providers and we do not work together."

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Looks like they're definitely out of date with that formula. Not that I've used their service but I always appreciated that there were options available for others.

[davep043]

As you showed in the post before this one, they haven't updated the site to reflect the WHS changes. I actually joined The Grint (under a fictitious name) to see how it works. I am now a member of a Club that is listed on the USGA's list of authorized golf clubs. So they do apparently comply with USGA requirements.

While GHIN is offered to State and Regional Golf Associations, not all of them choose to use GHIN to maintain their member's handicaps. For instance, Wisconsin uses Bluegolf, and I'm sure there are others These alternate calculation services comply with the USGA requirements, but they are NOT GHIN, and may not communicate directly with GHIN. I believe they will all post scores to a central database, and that database will be used for calculating the PCC, but I can't be certain.

[nsxguy]

I'd only recently become aware of different non-GHIN "handicapping associations" who kept an "approved" handicap index for its members that fully complied with, and were totally acceptable, as authorized USGA handicaps. Having said that, I confess it wasn't something I'd thought much about. LOL

With the clarifications to the new Rules last year it appears, as thorough as the USGA is, some things still fall through the cracks.

Unless TheGrint simply hasn't updated their webpages, and their app actually DOES now calculates 8 out of 20 with no .96 adjustment, I don't see how they can be listed under the USGA's "authorized golf clubs" as their calculations are simply wrong. Maybe someone who uses TheGrint can chime in ? Did THEIR handicaps change a/o Jan 1 ?

And "communicating" with GHIN to get the PCC may not be quite as simple as it sounds. Then again, it's not as complicated as many other communications between different IT systems. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[rogolf]

Everyone seems to be saying that a handicap from Grint is "official". I wonder where they actually say that and "official" is official? Do the USGA say that Grint issues "official" handicaps? Would the USGA accept a Grint handicap for entry into one of their events?

[Newby]

I always thought there was only one official USGA handicap provider but it seems you are in fact similar to CONGU.

A number of ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) provide Handicapping and Competition management systems (GRINT?) They often offer additional integrated services like club management/bar/security ... systems.

They are licensed by CONGU to use the handicapping algorithms in their software. Having done all the calculations 'at the club' they upload the resultant handicap changes to a national Central Database of Handicaps (CDH). These in turn are downloaded to other clubs that a player may be a member of. The CDH is essentially a passive system

Under WHS, the ISV software will still manage course & player details, competitions and and score entry.

But raw score data will be uploaded to a central national cloud system (overnight) for handicap processing (including PCC). The results of the machinations are downloaded to the relevant clubs first thing in the morning. ISVs will no longer have access to handicap management algorithms.

[davep043]

I believe the Grint slots you into a relatively local Type 3 Club (under the old rules), and actually provides an official USGA Handicap. At least that's what they used to do. As I mentioned earlier, I joined the Grint, and I'm in a club through the Grint that is specifically authorized by the USGA. I'm not sure how the Type 3 (internet-based) clubs will be affected by the changes, the definition of "Golf Club" isn't as detailed in the new rules.

One thing I'm sure of. State Associations are not required to use GHIN to calculate and maintain handicaps. Several of them do indeed use different services. Now more than ever, it seems logical that each of these services should share their scoring records into a centralized database, primarily to facilitate PCC calculation. This will eventually apply to all of the Associations around the world. As its been explained to me, if I post a score while playing in Argentina or England or Australia, that score will be considered when the PCC for that course is calculated. I'm not posting it to that country's association, I'm posting it to my home association.

[Seamus_McDuff]

MyScorecard updated from 10 best x .96 to 8 best on January 8th. They have not updated their “knowledge center” in any way. No idea how or if they’ll handle PCC.

A USGA handicap can be had by joining an existing official club or by starting your own.

”To make your club official, have the club administrator select the "Make Official" option from the admin actions menu. Then click on the blue "Make Official" button and fill out the simple online application. In the process, you can choose to have your club be "open" to other MyScorecard members in your local area - this can help meet the USGA requirement of having at least 10 members in an official club. We will then create the forms to be sent into the USGA for approval. If you do not have a club, you can create one, name it, and then follow these instructions to make it official.”https://www.myscorecard.com/clubsexplained.html

 

[Augster]

Where the Grint and others fall short is if you want to use your “official” handicap in state events. In MN, you need to be a member of a member club in order to participate in state events and qualifiers put on by the MGA and the MPGA. That’s how I understand it.

Did/does a TheGrint official handicap allow you to try to qualify for the US Open? Then it’d be an official and recognized handicapping service. At least at the national level.

As Seamus just said, you can create your own official club with as few as 10 members. These clubs will get you an official handicap and allow you into state run events. I’m sure there is a dollar amount in doing so.

[Roadking2003]

I am curious and I love math. I would like to understand why my club (or whoever does it) applied PCC.

 

But you have it backwards. Why hide it? It's golf, not national security.

[Roadking2003]

Exactly! If they have no reason to be hiding things, they should publish the info.

[Roadking2003]

Do you have a source for your post or are you just speculating?

[Roadking2003]

I don't see any way GHIN could compute PCC for two parts of a day. GHIN doesn't have my tee times, so how could it possibly determine which course conditions apply to me?

[Newby]

If scores are uploaded overnight to a cloud system for handicap calculations it could be done by having an intermediate upload.

I don't know if the USGA are using a cloud but certainly under CONGU the scores are 'sent away' for handicap (not comp result) processing

 

 

[Halebopp]

@Newby with regard to visitors affecting the PCC, I had a quick look at competitions at our club on both of the courses over the past couple of years.
For our easier course I couldn't find any significant differences between competitions for members only, open comps and company outings etc. with mostly, or all visiting players. Interestingly enough there was one members-only competition in which the CBA was +1, requiring 37 points to play to one's handicap. Never before have I seen the CBA work in that direction.
The tougher course was a different story though, keep in mind the CR System fails to give a fair representation of how difficult the course is as it's mostly narrow fairways with extreme rough and very few bunkers, forced carries etc. The competitions in which all or over 90% of the competitors were playing at their home club (and those visiting likely play at our club fairly often) had about 55% chance of having a CBA adjustment, most of these competitions were club's senior outings.
In open competitions, in which 30-50% of the players are visitors, there were only a couple of exceptions in which the CBA didn't kick in. The real kickers were the company outings etc. which had few, if any members playing. Not only was the CBA adjustment guaranteed but there was a 50% chance the adjustment was the extreme "reduction only", no-one's handicap would go up because of the round was supposedly played in such horrible condition. This adjustment should be very rare.
In other words the CBA considering the conditions to be difficult was maybe 60% more likely with open competitions and 100% more likely with mostly, or only visitors playing, also providing the more extreme adjustments. Of course, saying "twice as likely" would be a false statement and underplaying it as the comparison point was already north of 50%.
@bladehunter, I don't think I ever got back to you a week or so ago talking about the issues with the Course Rating System, our course is simply carved into the woods, certain rules official/course rater, calls it a nature trail with a golf course rating. You can hit over the pine trees to cut corners if you feel like risking it as they don't grow taller than 30 meters (100 feet) but you need to keep the ball on the fairway or could be easily facing a lost ball or two strokes to get it back into play. The course is 13 years old and its course record is 71, -1 even though it's rated 73.1/135, 6622 yards. That being said, on a given year the only stroke-play competition played from the back tees might be the club championships.

[bladehunter]

Wow. That sounds like my kind of course. Forces target play. And a beast !

[davep043]

I don't pretend to know the mechanics, but this is specifically discussed in the Handicap Rules.

[sui generis]

Rules of Handicapping 2020

5.6 Playing Conditions Calculation

Principle of the Rule: Course Ratings are based on normal playing conditions, but the difficulty of a golf course can vary substantially from day to day, due to:

Course conditions,

Weather conditions, and/or

Course set-up.

The playing conditions calculation (PCC) determines whether playing conditions on the day differed from normal conditions to the extent that an adjustment is needed to compensate. It is a daily statistical procedure that compares the scores submitted by players on the day against expected scoring patterns.

The purpose of this feature within the handicap calculation is to recognize that an average score submitted in harder playing conditions may be better than a good score submitted in easier playing conditions. Unadjusted, such a score may be omitted from the Handicap Index calculation.

If the PCC determines that acceptable scores submitted are in line with expected scoring patterns, then no adjustment is made.

The calculated adjustment is dependent upon:

Whether significantly fewer players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be harder than normal.

Whether significantly more players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be easier than normal.

The playing conditions calculation (PCC):

Is generally performed only once for a day.

Considers acceptable scores submitted on a golf course each day and requires at least eight acceptable scores to determine if an adjustment is required.

Includes only acceptable scores submitted by players with a Handicap Index of 36.0 or below.

Equals zero if fewer than eight acceptable scores are submitted.

Where applicable, does not include scores that are scaled up to 9-hole or 18-hole scores.

Can determine an adjustment of -1.0, 0.0, +1.0, +2.0 or +3.0 and is applied in the calculation of Score Differentials for all players.https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

[DaveLeeNC]

Assuming that the time of posting is indicative of time of play seems pretty iffy to me. Most folks that I play with post sometime after they get home (it is not a go to the bar kind of group).

dave

[Roadking2003]

I'm not a statistics expert, but it appears to me that using as few as eight scores to determine PCC is questionable. Maybe somebody with a statistics degree could offer an educated opinion.