examines the financial realities of the average LPGA Tour player

[Medson]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lpga-tour-finances-podcast

 

It is a 27 minute podcast. Some of the (financial) numbers are mind boggling. 

[Titleist_PT23]

I respect all of these players, what they've gone through, what they've accomplished, etc.

 

But I think some of Lindsey Weaver's comments are just wrong.  Welcome to being an entrepreneur.  Tons of people are out of pocket every day until revenue comes in.  Same with all of the young grads that take a job in NYC, London, HK, etc.  They have tons of costs with the hope that tomorrow will be better.  And is today a tough year for LPGA players?  Of course.  But it's a tough year for millions of people around the world.

 

Whether the LPGA / PGA splits are right or wrong is a different and complicated issue...

[Phreddy]

Our family has hosted Symetra Tour players when they are in town for a tournament.  There is no way to play that tour, with the hopes of making the LPGA, without losing money.  Entry fees, travel, equipment, food and lodging are only the starter.  But once you "make it" to the big show it is by no means a meal ticket.  I am a little disappointed in corporate America.  Women comprise over 50% of the population and control 70-80% of the household spending (according to various sources including the WSJ).  With a "grow the game" mandate from the various governing bodies of golf and those demographics you would think more entities, particularly equipment OEM's, would get on the sponsorship bandwagon.  True, there is an element of chicken and egg at work.  You need eyeballs to get television ad revenue and that drives air time, but you need exposure to get eyeballs.  Mike Whan has done a great job getting the LPGA to where it is but to my mind the moat between the PGA/LPGA in dollar terms is far wider than it is in terms of skill and competition.

 

Phred

[Titleist_PT23]

The way I see it, if you are OK with Lydia/Brooke/Nelly/etc making millions per year, Lebron/Tiger making $100 MM+ per year (or whatever it is), then you must believe in meritocracy, free markets, etc.  A natural and unavoidable by product of this is that some others will have a less comfortable financial path in the profession.

 

But it simply cannot be both.  Ask whether you think the top players should donate all or a substantial portion of the earnings to the "field?"  Or if the NFL should donate money to the NHL, etc.

 

I'm all for people being treated fairly.  But what is "unfair" vs. what is "just a different outcome" is not so easy to decipher and many people often get confused between the two.

[fredogolfer]

The comments on Instagram around this story were a blood bath. Players like Ryann O’toole, Roberta Liti and Harang Lee got involved. A prominent instructor from TPC Las Vegas claimed the LPGA would not exist  without the PGA Tour. I think the women should be able to make more but I’m not sure equal pay will or should happen because of the meritocracy issue. I will say it seems crazy Johnson Wagner can be last on the 2019 PGA Tour money list at around $550,000 and Suzuka Yamaguchi at 150 on the list makes 22,000. I think at 150 maybe 80-100,000 would be more reasonable.  The thing is the discussion turned to equal prize money which is not what the podcast was AT ALL.  Suzuka was surely in the negative and Johnson Wagner at least kept half of that which is a pretty nice amount to live on for a couple of years.
 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by fredogolfer

[grm24]

3 hours ago, fredogolfer said:

The comments on Instagram around this story were a blood bath. Players like Ryann O’toole, Roberta Liti and Harang Lee got involved. A prominent instructor from TPC Las Vegas claimed the LPGA would not exist  without the PGA Tour. I think the women should be able to make more but I’m not sure equal pay will or should happen because of the meritocracy issue. I will say it seems crazy Johnson Wagner can be last on the 2019 PGA Tour money list at around $550,000 and Suzuka Yamaguchi at 150 on the list makes 22,000. I think at 150 maybe 80-100,000 would be more reasonable.  The thing is the discussion turned to equal prize money which is not what the podcast was AT ALL.  Suzuka was surely in the negative and Johnson Wagner at least kept half of that which is a pretty nice amount to live on for a couple of years.
 

 

FWIW Johnson Wagner (154th, 597k) at the end of the 2018/19 PGA Tour season was not last on the money list. Jonathan Kaye was 265th @ 6k. The cruel fact that has long been known in all professional sports is that tv rights, ratings, live gate, player endorsements and event sponsorship drives what money is available to players regardless of how well the game is played.  In this instance the PGA Tour has much more of all of it than the LPGA does. That's never going to change and neither will in income disparity between the tours. Eyeballs drive dollars. LPGA golf as good as it is doesn't have the eyeballs/interest on it in the real world to have more money committed to it. The ROI just isn't there.

[fredogolfer]

4 hours ago, grm24 said:

FWIW Johnson Wagner (154th, 597k) at the end of the 2018/19 PGA Tour season was not last on the money list. Jonathan Kaye was 265th @ 6k. The cruel fact that has long been known in all professional sports is that tv rights, ratings, live gate, player endorsements and event sponsorship drives what money is available to players regardless of how well the game is played.  In this instance the PGA Tour has much more of all of it than the LPGA does. That's never going to change and neither will in income disparity between the tours. Eyeballs drive dollars. LPGA golf as good as it is doesn't have the eyeballs/interest on it in the real world to have more money committed to it. The ROI just isn't there.

I must have failed to keep scrolling on the money list. The LPGA also doesn’t do itself any favors when it buckles so much to sponsors. I suppose it’s a double edge sword, you push back too hard the event goes away completely. Mike Whan has talked about this to the effect of saying something like it’s going to take companies that believe it’s the right thing to do rather than being pressured into it. 
 

[HackerD]

Tennis has made progress in better prize money for women.  Any lessons there for golf?

[Hawkeye77]

6 minutes ago, HackerD said:

Tennis has made progress in better prize money for women.  Any lessons there for golf?

 

Nope.  Outside of the Grand Slams, still a huge disparity in tennis.

 

Golf doesn't have its majors with men and women playing the same place, same course, etc.  Totally different.  

 

Answer always the same, if and when the LPGA has a product that is as interesting to fans as the men in terms of generating $$$$$ in advertising, etc. there will be more money.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[MagicClassic407]

7 hours ago, grm24 said:

FWIW Johnson Wagner (154th, 597k) at the end of the 2018/19 PGA Tour season was not last on the money list. Jonathan Kaye was 265th @ 6k. The cruel fact that has long been known in all professional sports is that tv rights, ratings, live gate, player endorsements and event sponsorship drives what money is available to players regardless of how well the game is played.  In this instance the PGA Tour has much more of all of it than the LPGA does. That's never going to change and neither will in income disparity between the tours. Eyeballs drive dollars. LPGA golf as good as it is doesn't have the eyeballs/interest on it in the real world to have more money committed to it. The ROI just isn't there.

".....tv rights, ratings, live gate, player endorsements".....etc. You forgot one important component: The Ole Boys Network. I worked for an executive who was in charge of corporate charitable donations. The Boy Scouts received $500 annually at the time PLUS sponsorship monies (>$1,000) for their annual golf outing, etc. When the Girl Scouts came calling, they got a measly $25.

[WestTex]

12 hours ago, fredogolfer said:

The comments on Instagram around this story were a blood bath. Players like Ryann O’toole, Roberta Liti and Harang Lee got involved. A prominent instructor from TPC Las Vegas claimed the LPGA would not exist  without the PGA Tour. I think the women should be able to make more but I’m not sure equal pay will or should happen because of the meritocracy issue. I will say it seems crazy Johnson Wagner can be last on the 2019 PGA Tour money list at around $550,000 and Suzuka Yamaguchi at 150 on the list makes 22,000. I think at 150 maybe 80-100,000 would be more reasonable.  The thing is the discussion turned to equal prize money which is not what the podcast was AT ALL.  Suzuka was surely in the negative and Johnson Wagner at least kept half of that which is a pretty nice amount to live on for a couple of years.
 

 

"Players like Ryann O’toole, Roberta Liti and Harang Lee got involved"

 

I'm not on Instagram, can you sum up what their general opinions were?  Not trying to start/continue any drama, I am simply curious as to their views.  I enjoy hearing any realities of the sport from those that play.  Thanks!

[fredogolfer]

15 hours ago, HackerD said:

Tennis has made progress in better prize money for women.  Any lessons there for golf?

Only at the Grand Slams(majors) simply because they’re played at the same time and people pay the same price for access to women and men’d matches. At the regular tour events, the men still make more but nowhere near the disparity between the PGA and LPGA.

[fredogolfer]

12 hours ago, WestTex said:

"Players like Ryann O’toole, Roberta Liti and Harang Lee got involved"

 

I'm not on Instagram, can you sum up what their general opinions were?  Not trying to start/continue any drama, I am simply curious as to their views.  I enjoy hearing any realities of the sport from those that play.  Thanks!

Some instructor from TPC Las Vegas Who has won awards from Golf Digest told Roberta Liti(Symetra Tour) she should feel lucky she even got to play for a living.

 

Ryann O’Toole mainly argued that the ladies don’t have more fans because they aren’t given more exposure. She replied to almost everyone who said the ladies don’t deserve it. 
 

other players who chimed in were Harang Lee, Gemma Dryburgh, Amelia Lewis, Leslie Cloots mainly around women not being given the same opportunity and it was just disgusting to have people directly arguing with the players and telling them how they should feel. Most were men who said women should be lucky to even make money at all.

[WestTex]

7 minutes ago, fredogolfer said:

Some instructor from TPC Las Vegas Who has won awards from Golf Digest told Roberta Liti(Symetra Tour) she should feel lucky she even got to play for a living.

 

Ryann O’Toole mainly argued that the ladies don’t have more fans because they aren’t given more exposure. She replied to almost everyone who said the ladies don’t deserve it. 
 

other players who chimed in were Harang Lee, Gemma Dryburgh, Amelia Lewis, Leslie Cloots mainly around women not being given the same opportunity and it was just disgusting to have people directly arguing with the players and telling them how they should feel. Most were men who said women should be lucky to even make money at all.

Thanks for the summary! Honestly I think anyone, male or female, able to play a sport for a living is lucky.

 

I kind of get both sides of it, but I don't understand any need for vitriol, a shame to hear it went that route. People have covered the PGA vs LPGA talent/money/fan base quite a bit on this board alone so I won't add anything of value. I'll just say I respect the hell out of the ladies and support them by continuing to watch and attending when able.

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, fredogolfer said:

Only at the Grand Slams(majors) simply because they’re played at the same time and people pay the same price for access to women and men’d matches. At the regular tour events, the men still make more but nowhere near the disparity between the PGA and LPGA.

But they are not playing for gate receipts. It’s the TV money and sponsorships that pay the prize money.

[Golf Dino]

55 minutes ago, fredogolfer said:

Some instructor from TPC Las Vegas Who has won awards from Golf Digest told Roberta Liti(Symetra Tour) she should feel lucky she even got to play for a living.

 

Ryann O’Toole mainly argued that the ladies don’t have more fans because they aren’t given more exposure. She replied to almost everyone who said the ladies don’t deserve it. 
 

other players who chimed in were Harang Lee, Gemma Dryburgh, Amelia Lewis, Leslie Cloots mainly around women not being given the same opportunity and it was just disgusting to have people directly arguing with the players and telling them how they should feel. Most were men who said women should be lucky to even make money at all.

 

 

I've been following it from afar too, (the twitter/instagram debacle).  All I can say is that America is a really divided nation at this period in its history -- perhaps the most since the Civil Rights movement on the 1960s or perhaps even further back to the Civil War and Reconstruction. 

 

Given such divisiveness, it's not surprising that things have deteriorated to vitriolic comments being thrown around.

[2bGood]

When you think about it, women have more opportunity to play for BIG money compared to men. I am not aware of any major tour (PGA, European, Korn Ferry) that has a rule in place forbidding women to play. All these tours are open to women, they can gain access through the same pathways as men. It is only the LPGA and the like that restricts one gender meaning male golfers have less tour options.

 

Another item that rarely comes up is for the men to make on tour it is significantly more difficult than women to make it on tour. Don't get me wrong getting on to the LPGA is not an easy feat, but purely by the bulk numbers the top 150 Male golfers have four times as much competition to make it the top  than the  female top 150 women golfers.  The number is even more skewed when you look at men and women playing the sport competitively. Now maybe this is a chicken and egg debate as maybe more women would try to compete if the LPGA was more lucrative. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by 2bGood

[Stooch]

23 hours ago, HackerD said:

Tennis has made progress in better prize money for women.  Any lessons there for golf?

 

No lesson's at all, Tennis benefits from the Majors and big event being co-sanctioned and played together.  Tennis tournaments can make the women's prize pool bigger but it comes off the fact the men are a part of the event and generate much/most of the revenue.  Pre-covid watch a stand alone women's event and look in the stands and then compare it to a stand alone men's event and look in the stands, it's quite a noticeable difference, also a difference when you compare ratings of stand alone events.  In Tennis the men's game can help the women's cause many events are played together but if you held them separate like Majors in golf you'd see the WTA and LPGA would stack up almost identically.

 

The only real comparable is the USGA, which makes most of it's money from the Men's event and they take some of that money and juice up the Women's purse.  Perhaps a solution would be sponsors from PGA events does a co-sanctioned type style where the women play the same course as the Men the week after and use some of the revenue generated from the men's event to juice up the purses for the women event.  Then you'd probably have the problem of the course having to shut down to the public for basically a month during their prime money making time.  Or maybe if this type of structure was implemented you find venues with multiple courses on site and have the women play one and the men play the other with patrons able to go watch what whatever tour they want with a grounds pass.

 

But sadly in the end it's economics and women's sports simply don't draw the numbers and response the men's game does.

[WestTex]

I've mentioned before I think, I would love a men's and women's combined event. Two player teams. I think they were working on that, no?

[fredogolfer]

4 hours ago, Stooch said:

 

No lesson's at all, Tennis benefits from the Majors and big event being co-sanctioned and played together.  Tennis tournaments can make the women's prize pool bigger but it comes off the fact the men are a part of the event and generate much/most of the revenue.  Pre-covid watch a stand alone women's event and look in the stands and then compare it to a stand alone men's event and look in the stands, it's quite a noticeable difference, also a difference when you compare ratings of stand alone events.  In Tennis the men's game can help the women's cause many events are played together but if you held them separate like Majors in golf you'd see the WTA and LPGA would stack up almost identically.

 

The only real comparable is the USGA, which makes most of it's money from the Men's event and they take some of that money and juice up the Women's purse.  Perhaps a solution would be sponsors from PGA events does a co-sanctioned type style where the women play the same course as the Men the week after and use some of the revenue generated from the men's event to juice up the purses for the women event.  Then you'd probably have the problem of the course having to shut down to the public for basically a month during their prime money making time.  Or maybe if this type of structure was implemented you find venues with multiple courses on site and have the women play one and the men play the other with patrons able to go watch what whatever tour they want with a grounds pass.

 

But sadly in the end it's economics and women's sports simply don't draw the numbers and response the men's game does.

I think the pendulum as to which “side” of tennis is most popular at any given time swings. 
 

From about 1997-2004 I would argue the women’s game was most popular. Lots of young stars like the Williamses, Kournikova, Hingis, Lucic and Davenport. Veterans like Seles, Sanchez-Vicario and Graf were still around. Capriati made her comeback successfully. On the men’s side, Sampras and Agassi were successful but they hardly played each other during that time. You had a lot of players win 1-2 grand slams Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero, Korda, Kafelnikov, Johansson,  Costa, Roddick etc but no real star. I think it hurt the men's game in the US that Roddick never lived up to the hype, about 60% due to guys named Federer and Nadal. Now there is the big 3 who have been at it for more than a decade. On the women’s side, no one really has the desire or drive to be a star beside maybe Osaka, possibly Halep and yet to be seen Barty, Kenin, Gauff and Andreescu.  Everyone else, Kerber, Pliskova, Bertens, Kvitova, Svitolina, Stephens, Muguruza seem perfectly content to do ok for half a season and not show up again for another year. Tennis has do many combined events it really is a package deal. 

[stingerfade]

On 10/17/2020 at 1:35 AM, 2bGood said:

When you you think about women have more opportunity to play for BIG money compared to men. I am not aware of any major tour (PGA, European, Korn Ferry) that has a rule in place forbidding women to play. All these tours are open to women, they can gain access through the same pathways as men. It is only the LPGA and the like that restricts one gender meaning male golfers have less tour options.

 

Another item that rarely comes up is for the men to make on tour it is significantly more difficult than women to make it on tour. Don't get me wrong getting on to the LPGA is not an easy feat, but purely by the bulk numbers the top 150 Male golfers have four times as much competition to make it the top  than women the top 150 women golfers.  The number is even more skewed when you look at men and women playing the sport competitively. Now maybe this chicken and egg debate as maybe more women would try to compete if the LPGA was more lucrative. 

 

 

Lol ok. 

[2bGood]

50 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Lol ok. 

But that is the point right? If someone says the LPGA players deserve the same purses as the PGA. The answer is the LPGA players should play on the PGA tour then (as they are eligible). Then if the argument is "LPGA players aren't good enough for the PGA", then you have the answer why their purses are much smaller.

 

In terms of money available the LPGA to my knowledge has the third highest purses after the PGA and European Tour. The average LPGA purse is double the Korn Ferry and the leader of the LPGA make about 3 time that of the Korn Ferry. I suspect the players on the Korn Ferry Tour would love the chance to play on the LPGA tour if the restrictions on gender were lifted.

 

 

[fredogolfer]

On 10/16/2020 at 10:53 PM, Shilgy said:

But they are not playing for gate receipts. It’s the TV money and sponsorships that pay the prize money.

Didn’t literally mean that they get a cut of gate tickets. It’s a package deal for sponsors, networks etc so both tours benefit.

[fredogolfer]

11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

But that is the point right? If someone says the LPGA players deserve the same purses as the PGA. The answer is the LPGA players should play on the PGA tour then (as they are eligible). Then if the argument is "LPGA players aren't good enough for the PGA", then you have the answer why their purses are much smaller.

 

In terms of money available the LPGA to my knowledge has the third highest purses after the PGA and European Tour. The average LPGA purse is double the Korn Ferry and the leader of the LPGA make about 3 time that of the Korn Ferry. I suspect the players on the Korn Ferry Tour would love the chance to play on the LPGA tour if the restrictions on gender were lifted.

 

 

Good grief, the podcast and no one here is saying equal prizemoney.

[fredogolfer]

On 10/16/2020 at 10:51 PM, WestTex said:

Thanks for the summary! Honestly I think anyone, male or female, able to play a sport for a living is lucky.

 

I kind of get both sides of it, but I don't understand any need for vitriol, a shame to hear it went that route. People have covered the PGA vs LPGA talent/money/fan base quite a bit on this board alone so I won't add anything of value. I'll just say I respect the hell out of the ladies and support them by continuing to watch and attending when able.

Agreed but it’s different when someone living the situation says you know, there’s no real way to “make a living” out here for a lot of people and someone basically replies “shut up and be thankful you even get to try” 

 

I just go back to how someone who is basically DJ, JTs, Tiger’s, Koepka’s, De Chambeau’s, punching bag gets hundreds of thousands of dollars but I guess you get that for being those names punching bags and for the right for them to have someone to beat. 
 

I wonder how the ladies would do if there was a mixed event, same course, same tees, same pin placement but you got ride of the length factor and made it more about accuracy, putting etc.

Edited October 20, 2020 by fredogolfer

[miamistomp]

 The LPGA is more international in make up than the PGA

   Like it or not big money US sponsors are not going to rush to support what does not sell their stuff

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, fredogolfer said:

Good grief, the podcast and no one here is saying equal prizemoney.

 

The podcast brings up the disparity in money compares the LPGA constantly to the PGA and asked if the LPGA should have more money. It get into the twitter 'explosion' about money for the LPGA. When you look at the purses in professional golf, the LPGA seems to get about the right amount of money when you compare the skill and the exclusivity of the LPGA to the other tours. 

 

Yes it is tough to make it as pro golfer. I would say it is actually tougher to net $100K per year as a man than a lady. I often talk about being a really good junior as curse as you are very unlikely regardless of gender to make a career of it, but you feel like you have to try. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by 2bGood

[rlee323]

Sports is entertainment.  If people really want to see more money being given to women's players, we should be consuming more LPGA and women's golf content.  Sponsors, if their customers are mainly women, should also be looking to support LPGA and women's sports more.  

[Lobby]

Wouldn't a good first action for the LPGA to take be to eliminate tournament entry fees?  

I was surprised those even existed at that level.

[fredogolfer]

4 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

The podcast brings up the disparity in money compares the LPGA constantly to the PGA and asked if the LPGA should have more money. It get into the twitter 'explosion' about money for the LPGA. When you look at the purses in professional golf, the LPGA seems to get about the right amount of money when you compare the skill and the exclusivity of the LPGA to the other tours. 

 

Yes it is tough to make it as pro golfer. I would say it is actually tougher to net $100K per year as a man than a lady. I often talk about being a really good junior as curse as you are very unlikely regardless of gender to make a career of it, but you feel like you have to try. 

 

 

 

 

More money yes but not equal. People are acting like the podcast said the LPGA should earn the same as the winner of the US Open if they host an event the local putt-putt course.