what does "forgiving" really mean?

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, I understand the common definition/perception of forgiveness is about results from a mishit shot. However,  problems for the player may emerge when the design features (oversize head, extra wide sole, extra wide topline etc...) of the club actually promote mishit shots.

For example,  during a round of golf the over sized club player faced 20 full iron shots and mishit 15 of them.  If the same player put relatively small irons in the bag and only mishit 5 of 20 full iron shots, I would consider the smaller head irons to be the more forgiving design for his game.

 

 

 

And you'd be wrong. Again. 

 

See Stuart's response above. Those smaller headed irons would be the ones more appropriate, or "fit", for that player's GAME.

 

NOT more "forgiving" no matter how much you like to twist words.

 

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Exactly right. And for you it may be "thicker soles from sloped lies" that promote mishit shots. For other players it might be a wide topline that makes alignment extra challenging, and for others an especially large overall head size that may be more difficult to square at impact than a smaller head size.

 

 

And for him the thicker soles from FLAT, or almost flat lies may be what suits his swing/game best. Turf interaction ? (Real) forgiveness ? Straighten ball flight ? So should he fit himself for downhill lies ? Uphill ones ? How about ball above/below his feet ?

 

Once again, as Stuart mentioned, a club can only be fit from a "flat" lie.

 

A fixed implement can't accommodate ALL variables. And a flat, or "virtually" flat lie is easily the most common on most golf courses, at least the ones I've played.

Edited December 1, 2020 by nsxguy

[bschett]

5 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, I understand the common definition/perception of forgiveness is about results from a mishit shot. However,  problems for the player may emerge when the design features (oversize head, extra wide sole, extra wide topline etc...) of the club actually promote mishit shots.

For example,  during a round of golf the over sized club player faced 20 full iron shots and mishit 15 of them.  If the same player put relatively small irons in the bag and only mishit 5 of 20 full iron shots, I would consider the smaller head irons to be the more forgiving design for his game.

 

 

That argument just doesn't really make sense in the application of forgiveness. Saying a GI iron makes a player mishit 15/20 shots but with a small iron they would only mishit 5/20 is a completely different argument, and one that I think would be relatively hard to prove. That is not a measure of the performance of the iron, that is a measure of the player being more comfortable with certain equipment. Clearly a well fit golf club is better for a player than a non-fit club, but that doesn't equate to a small headed iron being "a more forgiving design" as you said.

 

I think the overall standard for forgiveness is how much your intended flight and ball speed can be retained by an off center strike. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by bschett

[Fairway14]

22 minutes ago, bschett said:

That argument just doesn't really make sense in the application of forgiveness. 

 

To you it doesn't, to other players it does.

 

23 minutes ago, bschett said:

 

 

I think the overall standard for forgiveness is how much your intended flight and ball speed can be retained by an off center strike. 

 

Your definition is the common one trotted out by golf equipment marketing departments, but some players disagree.

27 minutes ago, bschett said:

. Clearly a well fit golf club is better for a player than a non-fit club,

 

If the "fitting" was done by the player on golf courses , observing which club specs produced the consistently best shots , then he has good sense clubs for him to play.  If the fitting was done at a range or indoor studio the clubs specs will likely not be especially useful and, or, helpful to the player.

[bschett]

17 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

To you it doesn't, to other players it does.

 

 

Your definition is the common one trotted out by golf equipment marketing departments, but some players disagree.

 

If the "fitting" was done by the player on golf courses , observing which club specs produced the consistently best shots , then he has good sense clubs for him to play.  If the fitting was done at a range or indoor studio the clubs specs will likely not be especially useful and, or, helpful to the player.

I should really stop responding to you because im starting to think you just like arguing but I'll give it one more go.

 

1. Your theory on small club heads being more forgiving because they are easier for YOU to hit is a completely different topic that has nothing to do with forgiveness. Literally nothing.

 

2. I think there are very very very few players who would agree with you that forgiveness has nothing to do with flight and ball speed retention. There is a reason that's how the golf industry defines it, because it makes sense.

 

3. Saying that "A fitting done in a studio will likely not be helpful or useful to the player" is a wildly inaccurate thing to say. Obviously on course testing is the best thing you can do, no one disagrees, but that doesn't invalidate an indoor fitting. Although previously you said that trackman is harmful to 50% of golfers on a different post so maybe this whole thing is just about you not liking modern technology.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, bschett said:

 

 

1. Your theory on small club heads being more forgiving because they are easier for YOU to hit is a completely different topic that has nothing to do with forgiveness. Literally nothing.

 

2. I think there are very very very few players who would agree with you that forgiveness has nothing to do with flight and ball speed retention. There is a reason that's how the golf industry defines it, because it makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The title of this thread is 'what does "forgiving" really mean' ? The OP started the thread to solicit forum participants opinions/perspectives/definitions etc... of "forgiveness".

 

[RoyalMustang]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

The title of this thread is 'what does "forgiving" really mean' ? The OP started the thread to solicit forum participants opinions/perspectives/definitions etc... of "forgiveness".

 

 

correct...it wasn't to start a online war!

[RoyalMustang]

2 hours ago, bschett said:

I should really stop responding to you because im starting to think you just like arguing but I'll give it one more go.

 

1. Your theory on small club heads being more forgiving because they are easier for YOU to hit is a completely different topic that has nothing to do with forgiveness. Literally nothing.

 

2. I think there are very very very few players who would agree with you that forgiveness has nothing to do with flight and ball speed retention. There is a reason that's how the golf industry defines it, because it makes sense.

 

3. Saying that "A fitting done in a studio will likely not be helpful or useful to the player" is a wildly inaccurate thing to say. Obviously on course testing is the best thing you can do, no one disagrees, but that doesn't invalidate an indoor fitting. Although previously you said that trackman is harmful to 50% of golfers on a different post so maybe this whole thing is just about you not liking modern technology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trackman can be harmful if people use it to just chase distance and clubhead speed.  More data is great as long as you turn it into information that you can develop into knowledge and eventually wisdom (information theory).  

 

As long as you don't get stuck chasing numbers and correlate a direct relationship between swing speed and lower scores, Trackman I am sure is super useful!  Especially in your house, hitting a net, when you don't know if a swing is on or off-line.   

[Honeybadger]

I play the Ping 410 LST for it’s incredible forgiveness. On Sunday I hit one so far off the toe, I blurted out “oh no!” I quickly shut up and stopped complaining when I looked up and saw it sailing 220 and straight. It felt awful when I hit it, and it had no business turning out so well- that’s forgiveness.

[RoyalMustang]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:12 PM, Honeybadger said:

I play the Ping 410 LST for it’s incredible forgiveness. On Sunday I hit one so far off the toe, I blurted out “oh no!” I quickly shut up and stopped complaining when I looked up and saw it sailing 220 and straight. It felt awful when I hit it, and it had no business turning out so well- that’s forgiveness.

 

How much accuracy do you suppose you saved by playing the more forgiving driver?  5 yards?  10 yards?  Or was it distance? 

[Honeybadger]

29 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

How much accuracy do you suppose you saved by playing the more forgiving driver?  5 yards?  10 yards?  Or was it distance? 

I got a distance boost over my previous driver, the g30. I probably gained 5-10 yards on a solid hit. But the best feature is the forgiveness for sure. I don’t miss as many fairways or have as many bad misses. 

[tannyhoban]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:48 PM, RoyalMustang said:

 

correct...it wasn't to start a online war!

I don't see it as a war. Just a matter of opinion.

 

If a club creates indecision that to me is not forgiving. Because I'm going to mishit it more often. No amount of design will make up for the loss due to those mishits.

Every one can chase whatever they choose.  I want consistent solid contact with clubs that fit my eye.

 

I do not see the controversy in that.

 

[BCULAW]

On 11/29/2020 at 12:37 PM, bubbagump said:

For the definition of forgiving, and what it is.....try a SLDR driver, then hit literally anything else, compare.    

 

Forgiveness to me at least, is about keeping those less than stellar strikes longer and straighter.  No club will save tops, shanks, or anything of that nature....but those a bit out on the toe, low, high etc....keeping them closer to the results of a well struck shot is what it is about.  

So true!!!!  I do not typically concern myself with forgiveness and feel like I can play just about anything I want ........ Except the SLDR DRIVER!!!!!😂😂😂😂.  Man, that thing beat me to death on the course. I've never hit so many head high, low spin knuckle ball hooks in my life!!!!  

[nsxguy]

On 12/1/2020 at 3:08 PM, bschett said:

I should really stop responding to you because im starting to think you just like arguing

 

You're starting to get the idea,,,,,,,,,,, 

[chippa13]

Get home drunk at 3 AM without calling. If you don't have a knife in your chest when you wake up, that is forgiving.

[sailfishchris]

Holy crap! This is the Covid version of blades vs cavity backs! LOL!

 

[SwooshLT]

I switched to T200 irons AND red amt shafts in longer irons.......I'm getting older , need more help(forgiveness)  but don't want tons of offset or topline thickness .....

 

Forgiveness is a perceived conception of utilities helping when action isn't great.....like @pinestreetgolf stated .....you have great,  good , not bad and poor....

 

To still carry the water hazard or bunker with a so-so strike and have a birdie look whilst still being an enjoyable club to look upon makes it perfect for the player.