The allure of blades

[Robert L.]

I had posted something a few days ago about a set of 1963 Haig Ultra irons. I had asked about making the lofts stronger, and I was dissuaded from doing so (thanks, dlygrisse and  TommyRam). I attribute that to my lack of knowledge about blade irons. Last night I was watching some videos on YouTube when I came across this video from one of my favorite golf channels, Rick Shiels Golf. In this video he discusses blades vs cavity backs, and he says the reason blades have weaker lofts is because they're not meant for distance but for precision. You want to hit the ball higher with blades because you want your approach shot to come in steeper and land on the green softer. Cavity backs have stronger lofts because high handicappers need distance, which they won't get from blades. Makes sense to me. Now I'm probably not good enough to be playing blades, but I know how they feel when you hit a ball flush, they feel fantastic. I now understand more the allure blades have with golfers. All I'll now do with my Haigs is regrip them with GP Tour Velvet grips (my favorite), and play them once the spring arrives.

 

 

[deejaid]

I think the biggest reason blades have more loft is tradition.  When the classic blades were being produced you could almost be certain the lofts went in 4* increments from 20* in the 2-iron to 50* in the pitching wedge.  Manufacturers weren’t straying too far from those numbers for the sake of extra yards.  But I will agree that the idea of blades is precision, not distance and I’ve always felt that way, which is why I am not interested in modern iron technology.

 

Take your Haig’s to the range with a notepad and figure out your distances and write them down.  Forget what you think your distances should be in relation to your modern clubs.  Embrace the 50* pitching wedge.   You no longer need a gap wedge.  Plus, hitting a 3-iron is fun even if it is a bit of a challenge.  

[dlygrisse]

One of the reasons, not the only reason, lofts are stronger with modern non-blades is because the thin faces flex more and launch the ball higher.  I think you will find at equal lofts, let's say a blade 9 iron vs. a modern  PW or GW, that the blade will launch a bit lower but spin more.  The faces aren't springy, they are solid, you will get higher spin, trajectory control and will be able to work them better.  You will find the soles are thinner, which will help in certain circumstances, but not others.  Of course they also have lower MOI so they will be less forgiving on off center strikes.  More spin equals more control if you know what you are doing, but yes some of it is tradition, but remember blades from the 1960's had PW's with 52* of loft, so modern blades are stronger.  

 

At the end of the day someone with properly fitted blades and decent ball striking ability should have no problem playing blades, will you play as well or better?  Only you can answer that question.  

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

6 hours ago, deejaid said:

I think the biggest reason blades have more loft is tradition.  When the classic blades were being produced you could almost be certain the lofts went in 4* increments from 20* in the 2-iron to 50* in the pitching wedge.  Manufacturers weren’t straying too far from those numbers for the sake of extra yards.  But I will agree that the idea of blades is precision, not distance and I’ve always felt that way, which is why I am not interested in modern iron technology.

 

Take your Haig’s to the range with a notepad and figure out your distances and write them down.  Forget what you think your distances should be in relation to your modern clubs.  Embrace the 50* pitching wedge.   You no longer need a gap wedge.  Plus, hitting a 3-iron is fun even if it is a bit of a challenge.  

 

I love the 50* PW. As you say, you no longer need a gap wedge. A good set PW should be good for a wide variety of shots, anything from chipping to full shots. 

 

Now, if the set includes a good SW, they're the only two wedges you need. Still fun to throw in an extra wedge now and again, but it's also fun to throw in a 1i or 2i at the top of the bag instead.

 

[deejaid]

5 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

I love the 50* PW. As you say, you no longer need a gap wedge. A good set PW should be good for a wide variety of shots, anything from chipping to full shots. 

 

Now, if the set includes a good SW, they're the only two wedges you need. Still fun to throw in an extra wedge now and again, but it's also fun to throw in a 1i or 2i at the top of the bag instead.

 

I recently picked up a set of Palmer Peerless irons, 2-SW.  They are a fantastic set of clubs and are neck and neck with my Spalding Tour Editions. I might even place them in front of the Spalding’s as I can hit the Palmer 3-iron better than the Spalding and I actually hit the 2-iron rather well.

 

A 10 club set of irons like those with three wooden woods and a putter and you are all set.  Like you said, a pitching wedge is now used for pitch shots again.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

1 hour ago, deejaid said:

I recently picked up a set of Palmer Peerless irons, 2-SW.  They are a fantastic set of clubs and are neck and neck with my Spalding Tour Editions. I might even place them in front of the Spalding’s as I can hit the Palmer 3-iron better than the Spalding and I actually hit the 2-iron rather well.

 

A 10 club set of irons like those with three wooden woods and a putter and you are all set.  Like you said, a pitching wedge is now used for pitch shots again.

 

Exactly. Couldn't agree more🍻

[Jiggered]

10 hours ago, deejaid said:

I think the biggest reason blades have more loft is tradition.  When the classic blades were being produced you could almost be certain the lofts went in 4* increments from 20* in the 2-iron to 50* in the pitching wedge.  Manufacturers weren’t straying too far from those numbers for the sake of extra yards.  But I will agree that the idea of blades is precision, not distance and I’ve always felt that way, which is why I am not interested in modern iron technology.

 

Take your Haig’s to the range with a notepad and figure out your distances and write them down.  Forget what you think your distances should be in relation to your modern clubs.  Embrace the 50* pitching wedge.   You no longer need a gap wedge.  Plus, hitting a 3-iron is fun even if it is a bit of a challenge.  

 

I agree with your comment about the 20 degree 2 iron and 4 degree increments, but the 4 degree steps arrive at a 52 degree PW.

A 52 degree PW makes absolute sense when you consider that that leaves another 4 degrees to the standard 56 degree SW.

Those are my ideal lofts.

 

By the late 1960s/early 1970s manufacturers began to strengthen lofts slightly and loft creep began, accelerating rapidly over the last 10 years to the point where the trusty 7 iron, 40 degrees by the above "ideal", has reached 27 degrees in some of the GI sets, that's practically a 4 iron in old money. 

 

It's no wonder that today the iron sets in a lot of amateur players bags end with a 5 or 6 iron, they're really hitting a 2, 3 or 4 iron with a different number on the bottom. (And they've filled out the bottom end of the set with some expensive "specialist" wedges!)

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, Jiggered said:

 

I agree with your comment about the 20 degree 2 iron and 4 degree increments, but the 4 degree steps arrive at a 52 degree PW.

A 52 degree PW makes absolute sense when you consider that that leaves another 4 degrees to the standard 56 degree SW.

Those are my ideal lofts.

 

By the late 1960s/early 1970s manufacturers began to strengthen lofts slightly and loft creep began, accelerating rapidly over the last 10 years to the point where the trusty 7 iron, 40 degrees by the above "ideal", has reached 27 degrees in some of the GI sets, that's practically a 4 iron in old money. 

 

It's no wonder that today the iron sets in a lot of amateur players bags end with a 5 or 6 iron, they're really hitting a 2, 3 or 4 iron with a different number on the bottom. (And they've filled out the bottom end of the set with some expensive "specialist" wedges!)

Great assessment Jiggered, could not agree more.

To illustrate, I was playing 1978 Hogan Apex II's when the Calloway Apex Forged irons came out (2019?). The specs between my 4 iron and their 7 iron were basically identical. 0.5* in loft and about 0.25" in shaft length.

To my mind, if it quacks like a duck.....

As you point out, even the Apex II was a progression with many Wilson 7 irons in the '60's registering at 38/39*. Compared to the Calloway that is a 12* crank! 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

3 hours ago, Jiggered said:

 

I agree with your comment about the 20 degree 2 iron and 4 degree increments, but the 4 degree steps arrive at a 52 degree PW.

A 52 degree PW makes absolute sense when you consider that that leaves another 4 degrees to the standard 56 degree SW.

Those are my ideal lofts.

 

By the late 1960s/early 1970s manufacturers began to strengthen lofts slightly and loft creep began, accelerating rapidly over the last 10 years to the point where the trusty 7 iron, 40 degrees by the above "ideal", has reached 27 degrees in some of the GI sets, that's practically a 4 iron in old money. 

 

It's no wonder that today the iron sets in a lot of amateur players bags end with a 5 or 6 iron, they're really hitting a 2, 3 or 4 iron with a different number on the bottom. (And they've filled out the bottom end of the set with some expensive "specialist" wedges!)

 

I'd be happy with a 52* PW as well, but the set I grew up playing had a 50*PW (and 55* SW), which is why I think I am most comfortable with a 50* PW. 

 

Interestingly, I just noticed this thread on the Equipment page. A WRXer has posted the specs of the new Srixon ZX7 and ZX5 irons, including for the AW and SW. With the ZX7, there's a 51* AW and a 57* SW, and the PW is 46*. Change the AW to "PW" and PW to "9", and you've got a pretty classically lofted set of irons--though 57* for the SW is a touch on the high side.

[cold_war_era_golfer]

I've had a unique experience as to I stopped golfing when I was in junior high and probably only went 0 times in my 20s and probably 5-6 times from 30-38.  Last summer all I did was golf.

I had my 90s Kmart Knight Lancers, my dad's old Ping Eye 2s, and an assortment of vintage clubs I collected as a young kid.  

 

In August I stopped watching youtube videos or reading anything that had to do with the modern game.  I guess lucky for me I don't really know much of the modern game.  Through some help here I picked up some old books and magazines and taught myself how to golf better by using vintage clubs and instruction from when they were modern.  

 

I don't know if that makes a difference?  But I feel like it has especially when it comes to some of the loft and length discussion.  

So I guess what I'm trying to say is read more old instructional documents.

[Nard_S]

MB's launch lower and spin higher than CB's.

Loft for loft & same shaft the CB launch is 2* higher and maybe 5%-7% less spin.

When the numbers are matched up, loft loft, shaft for shaft, both types are within a yard or two on final distance. What took me a real, real long time to appreciate is how much those differences in the getting there affect on course play decisions. It's nuanced but it took me like a 100 rounds to fully appreciate it. Once I did, I've never questioned carrying old traditional gear again.

[BIG STU]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:45 AM, Jiggered said:

 

I agree with your comment about the 20 degree 2 iron and 4 degree increments, but the 4 degree steps arrive at a 52 degree PW.

A 52 degree PW makes absolute sense when you consider that that leaves another 4 degrees to the standard 56 degree SW.

Those are my ideal lofts.

 

By the late 1960s/early 1970s manufacturers began to strengthen lofts slightly and loft creep began, accelerating rapidly over the last 10 years to the point where the trusty 7 iron, 40 degrees by the above "ideal", has reached 27 degrees in some of the GI sets, that's practically a 4 iron in old money. 

 

It's no wonder that today the iron sets in a lot of amateur players bags end with a 5 or 6 iron, they're really hitting a 2, 3 or 4 iron with a different number on the bottom. (And they've filled out the bottom end of the set with some expensive "specialist" wedges!)

One of my scramble partners has a set of new Cleveland launchers. The lofts are printed on them The PW is 43* and the 4 iron is like 19* Talk about jacked!!!

[TheDeanAbides]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:44 PM, Nard_S said:

MB's launch lower and spin higher than CB's.

Loft for loft & same shaft the CB launch is 2* higher and maybe 5%-7% less spin.

When the numbers are matched up, loft loft, shaft for shaft, both types are within a yard or two on final distance. What took me a real, real long time to appreciate is how much those differences in the getting there affect on course play decisions. It's nuanced but it took me like a 100 rounds to fully appreciate it. Once I did, I've never questioned carrying old traditional gear again.

It's that spin that appeal to me. I'm not a high spin player and I like the extra control MBs give me. Crossfield always says something that makes sense on this: who can afford to give up spin to the golf course? It's easy to knock spin off, but not many people can add it.

[NRJyzr]

On 3/1/2021 at 3:58 PM, dlygrisse said:

One of the reasons, not the only reason, lofts are stronger with modern non-blades is because the thin faces flex more and launch the ball higher. 

 

Those sort of irons also spin the ball even less than their more normal CB counterparts, so they have to hit higher to keep the ball in the air.  Which conflicts with the club renumbered.

 

Also, isn't one of the reasons we need to hit the ball higher now, compared with Ye Olde Days, is because the newer golfballs spin less?  Jacking the lofts just makes that issue worse, doesn't it?

 

[dlygrisse]

47 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Those sort of irons also spin the ball even less than their more normal CB counterparts, so they have to hit higher to keep the ball in the air.  Which conflicts with the club renumbered.

 

Also, isn't one of the reasons we need to hit the ball higher now, compared with Ye Olde Days, is because the newer golfballs spin less?  Jacking the lofts just makes that issue worse, doesn't it?

 

It's obviously about distance, high launch/low spin.  They are doing it with all clubs from the driver, hybrids, woods and irons.  Modern GI irons are basically built on hybrid tech.  The days of Arnold Palmer hitting that low bullet driver or 1 iron that rises at the end are long gone.  I guess the real question is, which clubs allow you to play the game better, assuming you are using a modern ball?  I think a lot of people have found that higher spinning short irons and modern tech long irons or hybrids work the best.  It's why you see a lot of good players using modern "players" irons, or Vokey wedges through the PW.  

 

The one shot I used to have, that I can no longer hit, is that low knock down iron shot that stays low but stays in the air because of spin.  I used to hit that all the time to front pins, now when I hit it it just falls out of the air.  

[DavidCrockett]

The #1 reason for the allure of blades is that they're sexy AF.

 

Butterknife > some transformer looking cavity back.

[LeoLeo99]

4 hours ago, BIG STU said:

One of my scramble partners has a set of new Cleveland launchers. The lofts are printed on them The PW is 43* and the 4 iron is like 19* Talk about jacked!!!

 

That's nothing, the PW1 in Bridgestone TOUR B JGR HF1 is 38°. 

 

PW2 is 43°

Edited March 9, 2021 by LeoLeo99

[TheDeanAbides]

30 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

 

 

The one shot I used to have, that I can no longer hit, is that low knock down iron shot that stays low but stays in the air because of spin.  I used to hit that all the time to front pins, now when I hit it it just falls out of the air.  

This shot is definitely playable with today's balls. In fact, it's my go-to when I'm not striking it well. You just need to drive through it a bit more than in ye olde days. 🙂

[dlygrisse]

41 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

This shot is definitely playable with today's balls. In fact, it's my go-to when I'm not striking it well. You just need to drive through it a bit more than in ye olde days. 🙂

Probably a combo of my diminishing talent, GI clubs and the modern ball.  🙂

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Probably a combo of my diminishing talent, GI clubs and the modern ball.  🙂

Ah, yeah, GI clubs will definitely make it more tricky. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

 I guess the real question is, which clubs allow you to play the game better

 

[Nard_S]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

It's that spin that appeal to me. I'm not a high spin player and I like the extra control MBs give me. Crossfield always says something that makes sense on this: who can afford to give up spin to the golf course? It's easy to knock spin off, but not many people can add it.

Right? I think it adds a layer of complexity that can hurt or help. If you acknowledge and work with it it can be real beneficial. Glossing over it leads to problems. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Right? I think it adds a layer of complexity that can hurt or help. If you acknowledge and work with it it can be real beneficial. Glossing over it leads to problems. 

Can you elaborate on that?

[KGGolf]

The appeal to me is that I learned to play the game with blades. First set was cut down Apex Medallions. I wish i still had them...

[Pepperturbo]

On 3/1/2021 at 12:21 PM, Robert L. said:

Rick Shiels discusses blades vs cavity backs,

He's right.  I don't play 620 series for distance, but workability, trajectory, distance control and spin control.   I hit each club as far as it allows me, under-control.  If I want more distance, I go up a club or maybe go after it when conditions merit adding spinning or taking spin off the ball.

 

Last week, 156yds Par 3, into a breeze, pin in the middle, I used an easy 3/4 5i.  Ball was mid-high, it hit, bounced once and stuck 4' behind the pin, easy putt for birdie. 

On a short Par 4 I had 119yd leave to an uphill front pin.  Using PW I hit a perfect PW, my ball was high, then dropped next to the pin, 3' and stuck.  I made easy birdie.

[BIG STU]

6 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

That's nothing, the PW1 in Bridgestone TOUR B JGR HF1 is 38°. 

 

PW2 is 43°

HOLY LOFT JACK BATMAN!!!

[Nard_S]

38 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Can you elaborate on that?

 

Well all this "raise launch, lower spin" goodness lulls you into ignoring why it was employed in the first place. More MOI, higher launch & lower spin takes some of the helter skelter out of the swing and out of the hands. So for example a flip release will get punished more with MB. I learned that the hard way, lol. But what alluded me for long time was the need for heightened observation of wind & turf conditions. Winds at elevation, conditions on the ground matter more with launch/spin profile of MB's. For a time I questioned this conclusion. But if you grab a CB & an MB, use same shaft, go to range on a windy day, you'll see the MB reveals more in ways good & bad. That greater appreciation, raised my once ho hum GIR's, to above pay grade. If I had applied that with a GI, things might go better too but with an MB it is greater requirement. Added spin with added control will drop scores. But added spin with clueless negligence will hurt scores.

 

 

[BIG STU]

29 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

He's right.  I don't play 620 series for distance, but workability, trajectory, distance control and spin control.   I hit each club as far as it allows me, under-control.  If I want more distance, I go up a club or maybe go after it when conditions merit adding spinning or taking spin off the ball.

 

Last week, 156yds Par 3, into a breeze, pin in the middle, I used an easy 3/4 5i.  Ball was mid-high, it hit, bounced once and stuck 4' behind the pin, easy putt for birdie. 

On a short Par 4 I had 119yd leave to an uphill front pin.  Using PW I hit a perfect PW, my ball was high, then dropped next to the pin, 3' and stuck.  I made easy birdie.

Basically the same 2 shots I would have hit with one of my sets of Mac Blades. Well maybe have hit the 9 iron at 119 but then again I am at Sea Level 

[LeoLeo99]

42 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Basically the same 2 shots I would have hit with one of my sets of Mac Blades. Well maybe have hit the 9 iron at 119 but then again I am at Sea Level 

The days of me hitting a "normal" PW 119 yds are long gone.  Had a 119 yd shot today from a hardpan lie in the wrong fairway into the a quartering left to right and in my face wind.  Took an 8i and hit down pretty hard on it.  Squirted a little to the right but held the line.  Was a very nice shot over some trees and with a small audience of the people on the adjacent tee were waiting on me to hit and get out of their way.  Missed the 8 foot putt.  Used my G400 shovels.  Not sure it would have turned out so well with my blades.  Might have spun too much sideways and missed the green.  Don't know.  As soon as it warms up a little more, I'll bring the blades out.  

[NRJyzr]

When I started playing the game, and joined golf forums, I saw all the comments about blades, their difficulty, all that.  So I stayed away.

 

A fellow golf forum nerd picked up a set to try for himself.  He was fairly accomplished, low single digit.  Allowed me to try them.  Didn't seem all that tough to me, so kept going down that path, ultimately working some demo time with an MP14 5 iron.  

 

Night and day.  The MP14 was light years better than my own clubs, with same shafts.

 

I've tried to "go CB" several times, allowing the marketing to get to me, it never works out.  Finally, a monitor session really drove it home, my dispersion circle with my Ram set was considerably smaller than all the CBs I was looking to buy.

 

That's the allure for me.  Better shot results.  <shrug>