golf's three most overrated currently common beliefs ?

[tatertot]

The Oakland A's are the poster boys for Sabremetrics ... lots of Division titles and playoff appearances.

 

How many World Series have they won during their Sabremetric run? How many playoff series? What's their postseason record?

 

I think Broadie brings something to the table ... I just wouldn't throw everything everybody has ever said in the last 100 years in the garbage for it.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

We’ve learnt much in the past 10 years. 

[glk]

At the time broadie published every shot counts he was a 4 handicp.

[Zitlow]

29 minutes ago, tatertot said:

The Oakland A's are the poster boys for Sabremetrics ... lots of Division titles and playoff appearances.

 

How many World Series have they won during their Sabremetric run? How many playoff series? What's their postseason record?

 

I think Broadie brings something to the table ... I just wouldn't throw everything everybody has ever said in the last 100 years in the garbage for it.

 

 Brad Pitt starred in a movie about it called "Moneyball". 

[Petethreeput]

56 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Multiple times I've written that Major winners have authored golf instruction books, appeared in videos etc... which are filled with helpful information for all players trying to lower their scoring, from beginner to Tour pro skill level.  And while working as a broadcaster Faldo routinely offers commentary about swing technique, club selection strategy, relaxation methods etc... that can help players lower their scores. The point is the best players in the world can and do provide help for all skill level of players , so there is no good sense reason to seek guidance from an academic theoretician like Broadie who struggles to  to break 85.

You are funny. Unless you are the joke.

[Fairway14]

On 7/16/2021 at 7:08 AM, MtlJayMan said:

 

 

You know Broadie developed a system that shows how it would be advantageous/disadvantageous for you - for every shot that you took and where it ended up... isn't that what this whole thread is all about?... yet you prefer to ignore it (and I'm pretty sure no one talking here is wondering if Broadie prefers a bowed or flat lead wrist at the top ?!)

 

SG would confirm that you are, on average, better off (as a 2cap) to be in the rough 275yds from the tee with your 9iron in hand compared to being 235yds from the tee in the fairway with a 5iron in hand... as the result of the first two shots would leave you closer to the hole, on average, going with the first option... obvioulsy, all of this is hole dependent and has to be analysed beforehand (OB, hazards, etc.)... but, on average, you would lower your score going with the first option

 

 Broadie's stuff is  rhetorical theory ; findings which likely will not benefit a Tour player and definitely not help an amateur trying to shoot lower scores. The reality is that off the fairway lies such as nasty rough, trees, slopes, fairway bunkers etc... negatively affect shots more than Broadie comprehends. 

 

[glk]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

 Broadie's stuff is  rhetorical theory ; findings which likely will not benefit a Tour player and definitely not help an amateur trying to shoot lower scores. The reality is that off the fairway lies such as nasty rough, trees, slopes, fairway bunkers etc... negatively affect shots more than Broadie comprehends. 

 

Broadie's work is not theory it is data analysis.     With millions of data points both am and pro.    You probably salt your food before you eat it too.  Try reading it before offering criticism.   

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by glk

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

 Broadie's stuff is  rhetorical theory ; findings which likely will not benefit a Tour player and definitely not help an amateur trying to shoot lower scores. The reality is that off the fairway lies such as nasty rough, trees, slopes, fairway bunkers etc... negatively affect shots more than Broadie comprehends. 

 

 

all of which has been answered many, many times in this thread. None so blind as those that cannot see 

[Bad9]

21 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

and also likely limit the ability to play the game as well as they could 

Like all analytics in sports done to show the best way to win. Hasn’t made the sports better to watch but that’s not what sports are about. 

[Bad9]

7 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

You are funny. Unless you are the joke.

And he quotes Faldo who is wrong half the time when he talks about how a modern pro will play a shot

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

Like all analytics in sports done to show the best way to win. Hasn’t made the sports better to watch but that’s not what sports are about. 

 

I understand statisticians are routinely used by professional baseball teams to help assemble rosters of players, devise game strategy etc.... But remember professional baseball players have the skill to consistently execute strategies etc... Amateur golfers  shooting 80 or worse are more similar to little kids than they are pro players. For example, the kids should learn how to catch and throw the baseball, make contact with the ball when swinging a bat etc.. Amateur golfers shooting 80, 90, 100 should first learn the swing technique (s) needed to control the golf ball before they start trying to copy advanced strategies used by some Tour pros.

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

And he quotes Faldo who is wrong half the time when he talks about how a modern pro will play a shot

 

In recent weeks , during pro tournament broadcasts, Faldo has recommended that amateur players avoid trying for maximum distance with a pitching wedge (he made that comment when a Tour player chose too little club for an approach shot).  And Faldo suggested amateur players try to maintain relaxed shoulders at address (he made that comment when he noticed a Tour pro feeling the pressure to win the tournament had become too tense at address, which negatively affected the swing, and caused errant shots that led to bogeys.

[mgoblue83]

1 minute ago, Fairway14 said:

 

In recent weeks , during pro tournament broadcasts, Faldo has recommended that amateur players avoid trying for maximum distance with a pitching wedge (he made that comment when a Tour player chose too little club for an approach shot).  And Faldo suggested amateur players try to maintain relaxed shoulders at address (he made that comment when he noticed a Tour pro feeling the pressure to win the tournament had become too tense at address, which negatively affected the swing, and caused errant shots that led to bogeys.

 

Partial wedges and controlled short irons have nothing to do with distance off the tee.

[Fairway14]

10 hours ago, tatertot said:

The Oakland A's are the poster boys for Sabremetrics ... lots of Division titles and playoff appearances.

 

How many World Series have they won during their Sabremetric run? How many playoff series? What's their postseason record?

 

I think Broadie brings something to the table ... I just wouldn't throw everything everybody has ever said in the last 100 years in the garbage for it.

 

Again, the Oakland Athletics are a team of professional players capable of consistently executing the hitting, running, throwing, catching plays of the game. So, at such a high skill level using analytics may help a team gain an edge towards winning more games. And a Tour pro trying to lower his scoring average from 71 to 70.5 might benefit from using analytics to fine tune his lines of play or club selection strategy.

Do amateurs out there on the golf course slicing and hooking tee shots, fatting iron shots, blading balls from bunkers, three putting greens etc... en route to shooting 85 need data analysis to help them break 80 ? No, the amateur hacker who wants to improve should get some swing technique instruction and spend time practicing same so that he can have the skill to control his golf ball.

 

[Will29]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I understand statisticians are routinely used by professional baseball teams to help assemble rosters of players, devise game strategy etc.... But remember professional baseball players have the skill to consistently execute strategies etc... Amateur golfers  shooting 80 or worse are more similar to little kids than they are pro players. For example, the kids should learn how to catch and throw the baseball, make contact with the ball when swinging a bat etc.. Amateur golfers shooting 80, 90, 100 should first learn the swing technique (s) needed to control the golf ball before they start trying to copy advanced strategies used by some Tour pros.

I hate how accurate this probably is and also hilarious to think about as well. 

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Partial wedges and controlled short irons have nothing to do with distance off the tee.

 

The Faldo points I referenced were about selecting a 9-iron rather than trying to power a wedge, and also  keeping the shoulders relaxed at address for all golf shots. This is helpful guidance for all skill level players.

Faldo is 6'3" but rather than groove his swing for power golf he played shots for accuracy. Fairways and middle of the greens were his targets, which served him well for winning lots of tournaments. His conservative  strategy may not be effective at winning Tour events today, where a winning score is often -20 or lower, but for amateurs trying to break 100-90-80-or 70 fairways and greens makes good sense.

 

[Three_Jack]

On 7/15/2021 at 10:12 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Eggs-actly.

 

I mentioned this earlier in this thread.

 

NOBODY hits a driver at 80%.

 

As you say, they may "feel" they are swinging 80%,,,,,,,, but they ain't. 👍

Taylormade had a long drive comp with all their tour pros recently...

 

Rory typically is around 185 ballspeed on the course and he mentions in the video that his highest ballspeed hes ever gotten was like 192, so he's cruising at 96% of his max speed. 

 

I think Dustin Johnson was very similar as well.

[mgoblue83]

21 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The Faldo points I referenced were about selecting a 9-iron rather than trying to power a wedge, and also  keeping the shoulders relaxed at address for all golf shots. This is helpful guidance for all skill level players.

Faldo is 6'3" but rather than groove his swing for power golf he played shots for accuracy. Fairways and middle of the greens were his targets, which served him well for winning lots of tournaments. His conservative  strategy may not be effective at winning Tour events today, where a winning score is often -20 or lower, but for amateurs trying to break 100-90-80-or 70 fairways and greens makes good sense.

 

 

The game and equipment has changed and that's OK.

 

There will be far fewer players who are able to win while giving up distance as courses continue to lengthen and the long hitters continue to hit it farther and farther. Perhaps the only "short hitter" who is even competitive right now is Morikawa and he still hits it over 300 regularly.

[Fairway14]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

all of which has been answered many, many times in this thread. None so blind as those that cannot see 

See what ?

Amateurs standing on the 15th tee box 12 over par for the day getting ready to again swing out of their shoes trying for a long drive?

Amateurs swinging hard with an 8-iron from the rough and pulling the shot short  left to a green side bunker ?

Amateurs  firing low bullets from the trees that scoot over the green and leave a near impossible up and down ?

This is what I "see"  on the golf courses when looking at amateurs who think adding tee box distance will help them shoot lower scores.

The player who opens his eyes on the golf courses and sees the shots that come from bad lies has better vision than the guy who buys the  marketing rhetoric proclaiming 9-iron from the rough is preferable to 7-iron from the fairway.

[Fairway14]

15 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

The game and equipment has changed and that's OK.

 

There will be far fewer players who are able to win while giving up distance as courses continue to lengthen and the long hitters continue to hit it farther and farther. Perhaps the only "short hitter" who is even competitive right now is Morikawa and he still hits it over 300 regularly.

 

How is Morikawa's game relevant to amateur play ?

His famous tee shot at Harding Park GC short 16th hole was a driver he carried about 255 yards to a 10 yard wide landing area. It's a narrow, short 310 yard par 4 . Harding is a public golf course and all day long amateurs try to power a driver from hole 16 tee box only to usually leave their ball in the jail of trees to the right or the hazard to the left of the fairway and green, meaning lots of bogeys or worse. At 200 yards from the tee the fairway is relatively wide, leaving a 100 to 120 yard approach shot. Amateurs who lay up to that  that area set themselves up well for par or birdie.

[Fairway14]

39 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

 

There will be far fewer players who are able to win while giving up distance as courses continue to lengthen and the long hitters continue to hit it farther and farther. Perhaps the only "short hitter" who is even competitive right now is Morikawa and he still hits it over 300 regularly.

This thread is about amateur play, not Tour golf. I've referenced some male and female shorter hitting players from the pro game only because their distances are more applicable to amateur play.

[betarhoalphadelta]

 

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

In recent weeks , during pro tournament broadcasts, Faldo has recommended that amateur players avoid trying for maximum distance with a pitching wedge (he made that comment when a Tour player chose too little club for an approach shot).  

 

Of course, but distance is still an advantage. My stock PW (44*) shot is about 140, without swinging out of my shoes or going for "maximum distance". I'm sure I could hit it 150 if I tried, but I don't have any reason to try. If I need to hit 150, that's why I carry a 9i. 140 is a nice relaxed swing with the PW. 

 

That distance gives me a big advantage over an older gentleman I play with who hits his PW about 100. He's taking something like a 6i-7i from 140. I know my PW will, launch high, land steep, and spin enough to stop. He's playing a lot more roll-out because not only is he taking a lower lofted club, but he's not got as much swing speed to spin it. 

 

55 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Faldo is 6'3" but rather than groove his swing for power golf he played shots for accuracy. Fairways and middle of the greens were his targets, which served him well for winning lots of tournaments. His conservative  strategy may not be effective at winning Tour events today, where a winning score is often -20 or lower, but for amateurs trying to break 100-90-80-or 70 fairways and greens makes good sense.

 

 

I'm currently working on bringing down my cap. It's currently a 20. Most of my regular playing partners are about equal to worse than I am. 

 

At our skill level, taking an iron or hybrid off the tee is not any sort of guarantee of the ball ending up in the fairway. I'll still do it on shorter, tighter par 4s, because the relative risk/reward makes sense. But again, the fact that my 4h is a 220 yard club is a major advantage over a player whose driver is his 230 yard club and a 4h will be somewhere south of 200.. On say a narrow 350 yard par 4, if I take my 4h and put it in the fairway I'm hitting my GW into the green from 130. That player with 230 maximum distance maybe hits his 4h 180, and now he's gotta hit a 5i or 5h the remaining 170 to the green. 

 

Again, having the capability of hitting the ball farther is an advantage. 

[nsxguy]

26 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

See what ?

Amateurs standing on the 15th tee box 12 over par for the day getting ready to again swing out of their shoes trying for a long drive?

Amateurs swinging hard with an 8-iron from the rough and pulling the shot short  left to a green side bunker ?

Amateurs  firing low bullets from the trees that scoot over the green and leave a near impossible up and down ?

This is what I "see"  on the golf courses when looking at amateurs who think adding tee box distance will help them shoot lower scores.

The player who opens his eyes on the golf courses and sees the shots that come from bad lies has better vision than the guy who buys the  marketing rhetoric proclaiming 9-iron from the rough is preferable to 7-iron from the fairway.

 

As is your habit you're moving the goalposts. AGAIN.

 

You are (purposely ?) confusing the advantage of distance with course management. (Especially) high handicappers but also many other amateurs seldom make the best decisions.

[mgoblue83]

1 minute ago, Fairway14 said:

This thread is about amateur play, not Tour golf. I've referenced some male and female shorter hitting players from the pro game only because their distances are more applicable to amateur play.

 

You are clearly trolling but I'll repeat something I said earlier because it matters:

 

I don't know a single amateur (or professional) golfer who is more likely to hit the green from 200 yards in the fairway vs. 150 yards in the rough. Your contention in this entire thread is based on something that just isn't true. Amateur golfers are bad (me included) and asking them to hit a long iron from anywhere is a disaster. In fact - most of them would probably prefer to be in the rough than a tight fairway lie because it's more forgiving. EVERY amateur I know would much rather have a wedge from the rough than a long or mid iron from the fairway.

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

. 

 

 

I'm currently working on bringing down my cap. It's currently a 20. Most of my regular playing partners are about equal to worse than I am. 

 

At our skill level, taking an iron or hybrid off the tee is not any sort of guarantee of the ball ending up in the fairway.

 

You are a 20 handicap, which means you usually shoot 90's or worse.

If you want to start breaking 90 I suggest playing from the par 4 and par 5 tee boxes whichever club with which you can consistently hit the fairway. For some players than may be an 8-iron, for others that may be a 6-iron, for more advanced players that may be a hybrid.  You claim to hit wedge 140 yards and 4 hybrid 220 yards. Those yardages are longer than a Tour player gets from the same club. But if the distances you claim are  realistic then you could play 175 yard 7-irons from all the par 4 and par 5 tee boxes and set your self up well to shoot an 85 on a 6,800 yard golf course. Or, your 220 yard 4 hybrid , if you are able to consistently hit it straight, could be used from the tee boxes and you would be in position to break 80.

So, you can use your way above average length to your advantage by hitting less club from the tee boxes, finding the fairways, and easily lower your handicap index from its current 20.  If you are  so long that your 8-iron carries 160 yards, and you can hit 14 fairways with an 8-iron from the tee boxes,  that is enough tee box distance to consistently break 90 on a 6,800 yard course.

If your swing is such that you don't hit an 8-iron consistently straight enough to hit par 4 and par 5 fairways then consider spending time on the driving range and par 3 courses until you are able to hit your 8-iron shots consistently straight. 

[milesgiles]

42 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

See what ?

Amateurs standing on the 15th tee box 12 over par for the day getting ready to again swing out of their shoes trying for a long drive?

Amateurs swinging hard with an 8-iron from the rough and pulling the shot short  left to a green side bunker ?

Amateurs  firing low bullets from the trees that scoot over the green and leave a near impossible up and down ?

This is what I "see"  on the golf courses when looking at amateurs who think adding tee box distance will help them shoot lower scores.

The player who opens his eyes on the golf courses and sees the shots that come from bad lies has better vision than the guy who buys the  marketing rhetoric proclaiming 9-iron from the rough is preferable to 7-iron from the fairway.

 

 

your first point in your first post was:

 

'distance is not highly significant to scoring'

 

 

you've had reams of evidence that it is, whatever skill level we are talking about. Your only answer is 'what about if..' (insert bogus example of an amateur with zero technique swinging out of his shoes and never finding a fairway)...

Once again and for the very final time, good technique increases swing speed. Swing speed reduces handicap.

Yes I know a couple of guys with very high swing speeds that arent single figures, and I know a couple like myself with lower swing speeds who are decent players. But my own sample size of a few hundred golfers shows a clear correlation, tour data shows a correlation, the amateur SG evidence shows a clear correlation, common sense shows a clear correlation. Its pointless arguing with you because you have apparently no understanding of the scientific method and insist on 'whataboutif...' etc etc 

[ChipStrokes]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Again, the Oakland Athletics are a team of professional players capable of consistently executing the hitting, running, throwing, catching plays of the game.

 

 

sabermetrics has very little to do with the actual hitting, running, throwing, and catching. it’s a statistical approach that allows teams to strategize in a way that gives them the highest probability of winning a game. 

 

if a little league coach wanted to use its principles, he could very easily. 

 

level of talent has no bearing on the validity of the principles you’re questioning. 

 

im actually starting to think you just don’t understand all of this 

[Fairway14]

19 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

(Especially) high handicappers but also many other amateurs seldom make the best decisions.

 

Correct. And if they want to lower their scoring average most amateur players need to learn how to make better sense decisions. This includes decisions about learning how to develop proper swing technique,  decisions about choosing good sense lines of play, good sense club selection, decisions about what and how to practice etc...  The purpose of this thread is to dispel overrated currently common beliefs and help forum members improve their decision making ,  golf scores.

[betarhoalphadelta]

FYI I included the loft of the PW (44*) specifically to highlight that it's a stronger loft than a typical pro golfer plays. My GW at 48* is more akin to a traditional-lofted PW. The 4h is similar in that at 20*, it is stronger lofted than probably any 3i a typical pro is playing. 

 

My point about being a 20 is that we're all inconsistent enough that even taking 8i doesn't mean we're going to be finding 14 fairways. It might be MORE consistent than driver, but it's not perfect. My miss is a big sweeping hook, and my 8i is not immune. 

 

You know what hurts high-cappers? More opportunity for shots to screw up. It's why high-cappers don't do better relative to par on par 5's like low-cappers do. We can screw up shots, BADLY, just as easily from the fairway as the rough. Tops, fat, push/pull, hook/slice... All are always in play. 

 

If I play a 400-yard par 4 as a par 5, with 8i-8i-wedge, that gives me three shots to screw up. If I play it driver-PW, it only gives me two. 

 

Now, that doesn't mean I reach for the driver all the time. I absolutely WILL pull less club off the tee if the hole is set up where the driver is more likely to find trouble (hazard, OB, etc) and the hole is more open shorter. 

 

But I'd argue that the route to lower scores [and what I'm working on] is consistent ballstriking with ALL clubs, not leaving driver in the bag even on relatively open and trouble-free holes. 

[Fairway14]

6 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

 

sabermetrics has very little to do with the actual hitting, running, throwing, and catching. it’s a statistical approach that allows teams to strategize in a way that gives them the highest probability of winning a game. 

 

if a little league coach wanted to use its principles, he could very easily. 

 

level of talent has no bearing on the validity of the principles you’re questioning. 

 

im actually starting to think you just don’t understand all of this 

 

If a little league player does not have the skills  to hit or catch a baseball there is no point in learning or teaching game strategy. If an amateur golfer can't consistently hit a 7-iron reasonably solid and straight it does not make good sense for him to swing longer shafted clubs. People must learn to walk before they can run.