Don't start the downswing with the hips. Start with the arms.

[Zitlow]

I took lessons in Houston from several instructors including Butch Harmon and Kevin Kirk and never got any better. I got to meet and take lessons from Mike Austin at the range in Studio City, CA and experienced improvement after about 10-15 minutes into my first lesson. 

 

The body works the arms and the hands work the club.

 

 

[ChipNRun]

One thing to remember is everyone is built differently.

 

Other factors people talk about lately: Forearm vs. upper arm ratio. WRXer Mike Wheeler discusses this in Biomechanics and Swing Plane. The idea originated by golf instructor Mike Adams is that people whose forearms are shorter than upper arms often do better with flatter swings (Ben Hogan); those with longer forearms tend to do better with more upright swings (Jack Nicklaus).  Arm ratio proponents suggest that upright vs. flatter swings need different swing motions.

 

Starting the downswing can vary also by what emphasis the instructor uses. Some of the extremes are the Body Rotation Emphasis (AKA quiet hands) and the Hands & Arms Emphasis (such as Jimmy Ballard and "The Connection.")

 

I play golf right-handed. I have very fast hands. I tend to use the hand drop to take up the slack as my hips start to fire. Otherwise, my hands get out ahead of everything and I can miss left or right (wrong kind of excitement). Idea is to get everything (force multipliers) moving left, hopefully in sync.

[Zitlow]

I've never seen a discussion on here about anatomy trains and how they relate to the golf swing.

 

[Nard_S]

Big misconception is that the hips "rotate". They really don't. It's a linear move, a hinging and common fault for me is hinging it the wrong way. Malaska's video on "stepping back" stresses right steps back on back swing, left steps back on down swing. Pivot off left going back, pivot off right, coming through. I've always hinged it opposite and been trying to correct that motion for a time but I still screw up. Especially on the course. Use ground (lead foot) to push left hip away from ball line.

 

I was just at the range for lunch, could not tell where the ball was going, took a half a bucket then found that old habit that will not die, corrected hip action, things went much better.

[liquorandpoker]

2 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

And I believe he is a mentor to Milo Lines who very much believes in using your body. The commonality between them is - where they teach, they both can play very well and they teach others  how to improve. They just go about it in different ways. You need both arm and body motions working together as opposed to Ignoring one and hoping it will magically fall into,place.

 

If you start with one or the other or do both at the same time is where coaches seem to differ. 

 

Coaches use a usp to get people in but soon add other things because frankly a single move will not do much good.

 

Malaska started with his steering wheel and Lines with opening of the hips and core. Later on Malaska showed people how they should pivot and create space and Lines showed arm structure if they don’t naturally work as he wants. 

 

The only problem is if you watched the early videos Mike’s hands in club out without the pivot would make you give up on it and the same applies to Lines rotation because your arms/hands could naturally work out far too much.

 

Good post. 👍

 

Some random thoughts:

 

Malaska did a video where he talked about moving an item from shelf to shelf or executing another similar task.  He described the human body / nervous system working such that hands perform the task and body responds to support.  It just made sense to me and feels correct.  

 

I tell my kid "grab that bucket and move it to that shelf" or "pick up that stick and hit that post" and he does it with his body moving to support - weight shifts, shoulder turns, etc.  I would never say "move your weight 75% left, now turn your knee in, now rotate your shoulders, now extend your elbow...." as a way of facilitating the task.  

 

To me, that was an aha moment.  I proved it to myself by going out and getting much better very quickly and experience less variance in quality of play.  

 

You can still F it up with very poor body movement patterns.  I do think it's important to understand and execute good posture, stance, balance, stability still

[johnrobison]

57 minutes ago, liquorandpoker said:

I tell my kid "grab that bucket and move it to that shelf" or "pick up that stick and hit that post" and he does it with his body moving to support - weight shifts, shoulder turns, etc.  I would never say "move your weight 75% left, now turn your knee in, now rotate your shoulders, now extend your elbow...." as a way of facilitating the task.  

You might, though, if you were training him to compete in bucket moving at a very high level. Putting things on the shelf is a task that doesn't require the highest level of accuracy and efficiency. Sending a golf ball down the fairway, on the other hand...

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, liquorandpoker said:

 

Malaska did a video where he talked about moving an item from shelf to shelf or executing another similar task.  He described the human body / nervous system working such that hands perform the task and body responds to support.  It just made sense to me and feels correct.  

 

I tell my kid "grab that bucket and move it to that shelf" or "pick up that stick and hit that post" and he does it with his body moving to support - weight shifts, shoulder turns, etc.  I would never say "move your weight 75% left, now turn your knee in, now rotate your shoulders, now extend your elbow...." as a way of facilitating the task.  

 

9 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

You might, though, if you were training him to compete in bucket moving at a very high level. Putting things on the shelf is a task that doesn't require the highest level of accuracy and efficiency. Sending a golf ball down the fairway, on the other hand...

 

Exactly. NFL quarterbacks don't just get told by their QB coach "throw the ball to X spot", they work through footwork, mechanics, body, drills, etc. The goal is to make it so automatic that when they're on the field and have to hit a streaking receiver, their brain just says "throw" and the rest of it simply happens, because you can't think about it.

 

Ever watch a bunch of bros try to move furniture vs a bunch of professional movers try to move furniture? The pros are much less likely to injure themselves, suffer early fatigue from bad form, and probably be a lot faster and more efficient in general than the bros. It's because even something as seemingly simple as moving heavy furniture can be done right or can be done wrong, and your brain often doesn't know the difference without either learning it directly or getting enough practice to just "pick it up" over time and experience.

 

The golf swing is a complicated motion. The goal is to learn the proper mechanics so that when you get on the course, you don't have to think about proper mechanics--you can just think about hitting the ball to the target. 

 

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, liquorandpoker said:

 

Good post. 👍

 

Some random thoughts:

 

Malaska did a video where he talked about moving an item from shelf to shelf or executing another similar task.  He described the human body / nervous system working such that hands perform the task and body responds to support.  It just made sense to me and feels correct.  

 

I tell my kid "grab that bucket and move it to that shelf" or "pick up that stick and hit that post" and he does it with his body moving to support - weight shifts, shoulder turns, etc.  I would never say "move your weight 75% left, now turn your knee in, now rotate your shoulders, now extend your elbow...." as a way of facilitating the task.  

 

To me, that was an aha moment.  I proved it to myself by going out and getting much better very quickly and experience less variance in quality of play.  

 

You can still F it up with very poor body movement patterns.  I do think it's important to understand and execute good posture, stance, balance, stability still

 

Yeah I get that but golf is different especially to start because it’s an unnatural motion and we start incorrectly. The longer you pivot badly because you use the club incorrectly the more that move becomes ingrained and part of your motor pattern. It has to be replaced. There is a reason why it takes time, it has to be done slowly. Like anything some will have greater problems than others.

 

There is a reason why amateurs and pros need the help of coaches. 

[Hilts1969]

46 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

You might, though, if you were training him to compete in bucket moving at a very high level. Putting things on the shelf is a task that doesn't require the highest level of accuracy and efficiency. Sending a golf ball down the fairway, on the other hand...

 

Exactly that, when we start it’s very much I need to hit that ball with this stick and that is were the attention lies. Once you can get the face on the ball then it’s trying to work out why it doesnt get off the ground, or you chunk it or thin it, it goes left, it goes right. That’s when you try all sorts of things that makes your body do things that eventually become a hindrance to progress.

 

the simple fact we have to play the game at a tilted angle and hit the ground in front of the ball messes us up. It’s not a natural game in that regards. Put a ball at shoulder level and most would have a decent natural swing. They wouldn’t swing their arms lower or higher. Tell them to do the same move but at an angle then all of a sudden weird things happen. Most sports you react to a moving ball so you do what needs to be done. Hitting a motionless ball hard accurately with correct spin is not easy.  There is a reason most start by hitting banana balls they use the club more like an axe because that’s the natural move. 

 

Golf is very much counter intuitive.

 

If we could just swing our swing naturally this forum would be very quiet. 

[liquorandpoker]

betarhoalphadelta and johnrobison

 

Good posts.  I think most of us aren't pros but could be wrong.  However, I think those refinements can really help some folks.

 

Also why I finished with:

"You can still F it up with very poor body movement patterns.  I do think it's important to understand and execute good posture, stance, balance, stability..."

 

Hell, I've seen people so horribly unathletic that they could even f*** up moving a bucket.  🤣🤣🤣

 

On the other hand, trying to teach people with EADD (extreme athletic deficiency disorder) to hit the ball using their body rather than their hands and arms will probably end up a complete train wreck.  I guess all you have to do is look up and down the driving range to see that though.

 

Amyhow, good dialogue

 

 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Exactly that, when we start it’s very much I need to hit that ball with this stick and that is were the attention lies. Once you can get the face on the ball then it’s trying to work out why it doesnt get off the ground, or you chunk it or thin it, it goes left, it goes right. That’s when you try all sorts of things that makes your body do things that eventually become a hindrance to progress.

 

the simple fact we have to play the game at a tilted angle and hit the ground in front of the ball messes us up. It’s not a natural game in that regards. Put a ball at shoulder level and most would have a decent natural swing. They wouldn’t swing their arms lower or higher. Tell them to do the same move but at an angle then all of a sudden weird things happen. Most sports you react to a moving ball so you do what needs to be done. Hitting a motionless ball hard accurately with correct spin is not easy.  There is a reason most start by hitting banana balls they use the club more like an axe because that’s the natural move. 

 

Golf is very much counter intuitive.

 

If we could just swing our swing naturally this forum would be very quiet. 

 

You touched on some good points. In golf we swing on an inclined plane between the ball and the base of the neck. Bryson not withstanding who is trying to put his right arm and shaft on the plane we start with the left arm and shaft below the plane. 

 

The key is to use the pivot and hands to set the left arm, shaft and club face on the plane as we swing the club back so at the top everything is perfectly on plane to maximize distance and control.

 

 

The primary force for the downswing is applied in the transition. 

 

 

[golfarb1]

6 hours ago, Zitlow said:

I've never seen a discussion on here about anatomy trains and how they relate to the golf swing.

 

I can not remember another post that suggests serious discussion regarding golf and anatomy . 
Do you have a kinesiology background ?

Are you a Doctor or therapist? 
Thank you for the book suggestion 

Edited July 29, 2021 by golfarb1

[betarhoalphadelta]

48 minutes ago, liquorandpoker said:

betarhoalphadelta and johnrobison

 

Good posts.  I think most of us aren't pros but could be wrong.  However, I think those refinements can really help some folks.

 

Also why I finished with:

"You can still F it up with very poor body movement patterns.  I do think it's important to understand and execute good posture, stance, balance, stability..."

 

Hell, I've seen people so horribly unathletic that they could even f*** up moving a bucket.  🤣🤣🤣

 

On the other hand, trying to teach people with EADD (extreme athletic deficiency disorder) to hit the ball using their body rather than their hands and arms will probably end up a complete train wreck.  I guess all you have to do is look up and down the driving range to see that though.

 

Amyhow, good dialogue

 

 

Well, I think most of the folks you see on the local driving range should see a pro, rather than watching YouTube videos on the golf swing 😉

 

I think the big thing is that in one sense, Malaska is correct. You put a golf club in someone's hands and tell them to hit the ball, they're going to figure out a way to hit the ball. That's what our brains do. They solve problems. They're going to learn to put the clubface on the ball. 

 

But I disagree that they're going to figure out how to do it in an efficient and consistent fashion. They're not going to do it in a way that avoids slicing (OTT/slice being the most common novice problem). They're not going to do it in a way that generates distance, because they're not going to have an efficient motion. It won't be pretty. It'll just get the face on the ball. The golf swing is too complex to expect that any normal person is going to figure out the rest naturally.

 

I agree with you that telling someone to "hit the ball using their body" is going to end badly... Especially if it's not under the watchful eye of a talented teaching pro... But just telling someone "swing with the arms and hands" isn't going to be much better. For anyone from the novice to the established player, speaking in that level of platitude is meaningless. All that can be done is to look at the player, figure out the most egregious wrong thing they're doing, try to fix it, and move on to the next most egregious problem. Focus on specifics of each individual player rather than platitudes.

 

That's my opinion, anyway. 

[golfarb1]

 

 

First still

Tyler Ferrell at impact

Tyler teaches an impact position where the sternum points in front of the ball with considerable right lateral bend

 

Second still

Mike Malaska at impact

 

Third still

Ben Hogan at impact

[Zitlow]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

I can not remember another post that suggests serious discussion regarding golf and anatomy . 
Do you have a kinesiology background ?

Are you a Doctor or therapist? 
Thank you for the book suggestion 

 

I'm not a kinesiologist but I learned the swing from one, Mike Austin. A deep dive isn't necessary just a basic understanding of how the joints and muscles are designed to operate and how to use them according to their design. 

[chippa13]

Stop overthinking it. The arms swing the club to the target and everything follows naturally.

[AndersUK]

The fact that lower body moves first usually before the backswing has even finished is irrefutable.  Endless numbers of instructors with video evidence have proven this.  However, the same instructors have also demonstrated that intentionally starting the downswing with the lower body or hips can be a disaster for many amateurs because their arms get stuck behind.  

 

Swinging the arms or starting the downswing with the arms is a valid swing thought for many and almost all that try it discover (on camera) that the lower body still moves first in order to support the intention/task of swinging the arms. 

[liquorandpoker]

1 hour ago, AndersUK said:

The fact that lower body moves first usually before the backswing has even finished is irrefutable.  Endless numbers of instructors with video evidence have proven this.  However, the same instructors have also demonstrated that intentionally starting the downswing with the lower body or hips can be a disaster for many amateurs because their arms get stuck behind.  

 

Swinging the arms or starting the downswing with the arms is a valid swing thought for many and almost all that try it discover (on camera) that the lower body still moves first in order to support the intention/task of swinging the arms. 

 

I believe this is correct.  Starting w the arms / hands is an intent / feeling.  It helps to synch the swing. 

 

I also benefit from putting my mind more into the hands, which have the fine motor control required to control the clubface.  I feel like the club is very heavy through the bottom and am very aware of the arch and release of the club.  When I do this I rarely have an off the world miss and I can control ball flight better.  

 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, AndersUK said:

The fact that lower body moves first usually before the backswing has even finished is irrefutable.  Endless numbers of instructors with video evidence have proven this.  However, the same instructors have also demonstrated that intentionally starting the downswing with the lower body or hips can be a disaster for many amateurs because their arms get stuck behind.  

 

Swinging the arms or starting the downswing with the arms is a valid swing thought for many and almost all that try it discover (on camera) that the lower body still moves first in order to support the intention/task of swinging the arms. 

Exactly this.

[MK7Golf21]

It’s much more than just using arms or body in reality. You will find most am’s with mostly straight arms and hips square to the ball with EE just swinging the arms because their hips don’t move right. Same thing with just focusing on turning the hips, they still early extend and block out the arms and they fall behind.

[Jbarretta]

 For me arms first has dramatically changed my ball striking  im an 18.5 handicap at just shot an 82 on a hard course   manuel de la torre, michael breed, mike bender, tony luzcak all teach arms first  for me i needed to.speed up my trail arm especially as i golf lefty and am right hand dominant.  I have been taking live lessons and online lessons with dennis from corgono golf.  All say my swing is 1000x better with arms first feel.  Your body will respond to the arm swing and post impact you will be more open with straighter arms.

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

My favorite quote on this subject is from a guy who posted on this site that his body had “learned to react” to his arms.

 

Obviously, if you have to learn it, you aren’t just reacting.

 

From what I see, the vast majority of golfers never learn to engage their bodies much at all, much less properly.

 

 

[Shanker84]

I said this before and the comment was liked by Monte so I feel like I got Yoda's blessing and can repeat. 

 

The whole start of the downswing debate/conversation is about finding the feel to get things to sink up right for each person. Some people fire their hips too fast, arms have to FEEL as if they're starting it all, even though it's still lower body but the feel gets it synched up. People with swings that are too armsy need to fire hips for synching purposes and players that know lower body leads are stating a fact, not a feel.

 

Hogan said that the lower body stars the swing, which is true, and then he went on to say that the biggest issue in amateurs is that their shoulders open too fast causing OTT. So while he doesn't state that arms need to go first, he does say that shoulders need to hang back to (allow synching). 

 

Not as different or controversial as some want to think. 

[Scottbox]

On 7/27/2021 at 2:52 PM, Valtiel said:

This is all relative to the individual and a "feel vs real" thing. Tiger talked about that feel back in 2000, but because his hips were so fast that he needed to feel like his hands went first. They did not of course, it is merely a feel to get into the right place. 

Bad sequencing is an extremely common issue, and i'd wager it is far more common for people to *actually* lead their downswing with the hands/arms and end up with all the classic problems because of it. 

Exactly, every individual is different. I have to start with my lower body because my arms come down too quickly. I actually feel a Hideki-level pause at the top (though in reality no one sees it on video). Trying to tell everyone to start the downswing the same way is like trying to get everyone to wear the same size suit. 

[golfarb1]

Make a better backswing and the downswing will be a reaction 

[TheDeanAbides]

13 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Make a better backswing and the downswing will be a reaction 

That’s not true at all. Walk up and range and you’ll see loads of great backswings that die a death during transition because the player has no idea how to get from the top to impact correctly.

 

a better backswing gives a player a much better chance of making a good downswing without compensations, but the transition is the key that unlocks the magic.

[CasualLie]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

That’s not true at all. Walk up and range and you’ll see loads of great backswings that die a death during transition because the player has no idea how to get from the top to impact correctly.

 

a better backswing gives a player a much better chance of making a good downswing without compensations, but the transition is the key that unlocks the magic.

 

Hmmm... Interesting theory.  I'm not sure on this one.  I would contend those great looking backswings on the range are deceiving.  If truly a great backswing, it would have to make one very crazy move in transition to ruin it all.  Possible, but I'm wondering what was the impetus for such a death move.

 

I'm more of the school that transition only exists as a moment in time you can describe when looking at a swing already completed (i.e. video).  The actual swing is one continuous motion.  The more one tries to control that transition move in real-time at full speed, the bigger potential for trouble.  Sure, work on the transition area as single focus at less than full speed, just don't fall in love with analyzing the ballflight; like a drill.

[Zitlow]

20 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Make a better backswing and the downswing will be a reaction 

 

I agree about the backswing, by the time the left arm is parallel to the ground the clubface, shaft and left arm should be coming onto the plane. As the club reaches the top everything should be fully on plane.

 

Most guys aren't aimed properly at the top and are tapping the breaks all the way down just to make contact with the ball wasting valuable energy. 

 

He's like a loaded gun that's perfectly aimed, all he has to do is pull the trigger. 

 

 

The downswing isn't a pure reaction until a stimulus is applied, the body responds to the stimulus. The reaction is the clubhead releasing. Stimulus, response and reaction. 

[golfarb1]

8 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

That’s not true at all. Walk up and range and you’ll see loads of great backswings that die a death during transition because the player has no idea how to get from the top to impact correctly.

 

a better backswing gives a player a much better chance of making a good downswing without compensations, but the transition is the key that unlocks the magic.

Unless you are referring to a PGA Tour event , I would say that there are very, very  , very few players  at the typical range without flawed  to very flawed backswings.

 

Otherwise , I  do not think that we are in disagreement . 

Brian Manzella has defined the transition  as the time in the swing  in which the lower body and the upper body are moving in different directions .Some outstanding golfers with superior athletic skills  base their downswing on their  compensating moves in transition , but doing so makes the transition more complicated . 
The ultimate problem that all golfers face is the very short period of time between the end of the backswing and impact . For most of us  there is not enough time to add in compensating moves during transition . 
 

Edited March 2, 2022 by golfarb1

[wagolfer7]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Unless you are referring to a PGA Tour event , I would say that there are very, very  , very few players  at the typical range without flawed  to very flawed backswings.

 

Otherwise , I  do not think that we are in disagreement . 

Brian Manzella has defined the transition  as the time in the swing  in which the lower body and the upper body are moving in different directions .Some outstanding golfers with superior athletic skills  base their downswing on their  compensating moves in transition , but doing so makes the transition more complicated . 
The ultimate problem that all golfers face is the very short period of time between the end of the backswing and impact . For most of us  there is not enough time to add in compensating moves during transition . 
 

 

I agree with @TheDeanAbides.  

 

Typical WRX - you guys are looking for pretty looking positions as opposed to what's more important.  

 

I play with a lot of really good golfers that yank it inside, come into the ball too steep, have restricted hip motion, etc.  But they play at + handicap levels.  

 

Why is that?  

 

As @TheDeanAbides stated - transition is where the magic happens.  Probably Wolfe is the easiest example of understanding this.  

 

The bigger issue is most amateurs in my opinion don't understand what transition is and what is actually happening during transition.  

 

So many things are more important than being at a pretty position on the top.