Dr Kwon

[Hawkeye77]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:28 PM, 68onFriday said:

A natural Kwon step for momentum disciple in the making.🤣

 

 

"Glad that lesson fee turned into a donation ---- mom!"

[CasualLie]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:49 PM, RobertBaron said:

I find it about as extreme as throwing a football. 
 

The timing is only difficult because most players ie the recreational mid-high handicappers treat the golf swing differently than throwing a ball. Especially the sequence. Most players start transferring to the lead side way too late in the backswing or there’s no separation at all and they fire everything at once from the top. 
 

Whenever I’m at the course and see someone working on their swing, specifically their position at the top, they almost 100% of the time never incorporate the recentering move. It’s always like club parallel at the top and 90% loaded on the trail leg. Everyone’s working on a position they should never be in. 
 

So when you come to the realization that you’re probably always terribly late transitioning to the lead side, Kwon’s timing all kinda clicks. 
 

Really it’s just about getting a flow and rhythm into the swing like cracking a whip. You can’t crack a whip if it’s all moving together. 

 

 

How do you know that?  I ask because I was just listening to Claude Harmon's podcast with Dr. Scott Lynn, who knows just as much as anyone about biomechanics and works for Swing Catalyst, and he says you really can't tell where the pressure is without measurement.  You can have a hunch, you get a sense of patterns, but many times what he thought was a certain "weighting" during back swing for many tour players turned out wrong once it was measured.

 

Can golfers overall get better at sequencing?  For sure.  But for better players, they do not all fit in some optimum pressure measurement.   

[leekgolf]

For those of you who have worked on this, have you separately had other upper body changes to make? 

Have you been able to accomplish both?

 

I'm trying to learn to do this, which really meshes well with lower body work my instructor wants me to work on.

He also wants me to work on a backswing change, that's really upper body/arm driven.

 

How does someone make two changes in the same several month period?

[RobertBaron]

5 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

 

How do you know that?  I ask because I was just listening to Claude Harmon's podcast with Dr. Scott Lynn, who knows just as much as anyone about biomechanics and works for Swing Catalyst, and he says you really can't tell where the pressure is without measurement.  You can have a hunch, you get a sense of patterns, but many times what he thought was a certain "weighting" during back swing for many tour players turned out wrong once it was measured.

 

Can golfers overall get better at sequencing?  For sure.  But for better players, they do not all fit in some optimum pressure measurement.   

I don't have swing catalyst or pressure plates so I kinda have to go on feel. Basically I try to feel I'm getting onto my lead side while I'm still taking the club back. Prior to watching all the Kwon my feel in transition was more separated like completing the backswing then transferring/transitioning all at once.

 

So I guess I don't really know in a scientific sense but the feel is pretty different than how used to swing so who knows?

[CasualLie]

21 minutes ago, RobertBaron said:

I don't have swing catalyst or pressure plates so I kinda have to go on feel. Basically I try to feel I'm getting onto my lead side while I'm still taking the club back. Prior to watching all the Kwon my feel in transition was more separated like completing the backswing then transferring/transitioning all at once.

 

So I guess I don't really know in a scientific sense but the feel is pretty different than how used to swing so who knows?

 

I meant your observation of others you see at the range.

 

For yourself, yes, you can go a lot on feel because it's been shown golfers are a lot closer to understanding pressure percentages they are feeling than they think.  You really don't need pressure plates to understand it for yourself unless you have near zero athletic sense.  You can stand at 50/50, lift a leg off the ground and now you are 0-100, then try something in between.

[Duffer Mark]

 

 

 

 

I thought this was a good video showing (I added the lines) Tiger's upper body move away from the target in the back swing and his re-centering. The head and spine stay behind the ball until impact while the lower body moves forward but never past the front foot position.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Duffer Mark

[zacgolf]

 

[Nels55]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:18 PM, Billywhizz said:

So is this the AMG video that suggests a more centralised rotation of the spine being better for the back?  It looks similar to the Stack and Tilt type of spinal motion.

 

 

 

 

Yet we have TPI suggesting a slight lean away from the target (check out the video)

 

Reverse Spine Angle | Swing Characteristics | TPI (mytpi.com)

 

I suspect one must not go towards the extreme right or left  but  I'm not going to force myself into a position that will put strain on my back.

 

 

The TPI video is interesting stuff.  LOL my lower back hurts right where the guy pointed near the end of the video.  I suspect that I am probably doing something incorrectly in my attempt to learn what Kwon is teaching but I suppose that there is a possibility that what AMG and Kwon are teaching is not the safest way to swing.  Don't know!

[PJ1120]

3 hours ago, zacgolf said:

 

What does Kwon mean the the "throw"? Arm throw?

 

[leekgolf]

1 hour ago, PJ1120 said:

What does Kwon mean the the "throw"? Arm throw?

 

I could be wrong. I took his comments on the arm throw in some of his earlier videos to mean the idea of throwing the arms with the body. 

If someone has more information or more importantly if I misunderstood or misinterpreted his concept, please let me know.

Edited March 22, 2022 by leekgolf

[i*windows]

of those who are doing the drills, how many are recording each swing and checking it? from watching the videos DK corrects everyone when they go off track, how are you managing to control that you are doing the drills correctly?

[leekgolf]

3 hours ago, i*windows said:

of those who are doing the drills, how many are recording each swing and checking it? from watching the videos DK corrects everyone when they go off track, how are you managing to control that you are doing the drills correctly?

I've done some recording. It's usually disappointing.

[glk]

13 hours ago, PJ1120 said:

What does Kwon mean the the "throw"? Arm throw?

 

Haerim Kim has a good example which Dr. Kwon refers to as the Haerim dance.     https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ5x_5wHtD3/

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, i*windows said:

of those who are doing the drills, how many are recording each swing and checking it? from watching the videos DK corrects everyone when they go off track, how are you managing to control that you are doing the drills correctly?

I record fairly often but should probably record more.  I have seen an improvement in my motion over time but I also see stuff to work on every time I record.  I believe that the biggest problem for me is getting the timing right.  It is fairly easy to see mechanical mistakes but the timing seems a bit more difficult.

[i*windows]

this session with Ben Crane is just great, but also goes to show how a simple concept can be pretty difficult to implement even for a PGA pro.

 

[RichieHunt]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:53 PM, glk said:

Dana doesn’t want people to left tilt early in takeaway.    Dana folks get plenty of left tilt it just happens later in backswing more after p2.

 

Having taken lessons from Josh Koch who collaborates with Dana, I can back up this statement.

 

It's something I was doing before I worked with Josh (downward lead shoulder motion and upper spine tilt in the takeaway).  The early titling concept came from MORAD and S&T (although I'd argue it was more S&T than MORAD).  

 

From watching the Kwon videos I think Kwon and Dana/Koch are on the same page.  You have to tilt to get the turn/wind up that Kwon talks about.  But Dana/Koch are correct...if you just turn the lead shoulder too far downward in the takeaway it will restrict the pivot .  The lead shoulder goes downward a little in the takeaway, but it is turning more horizontally in the takeaway.  Then as you get to say p2.5, there's an increase in the tilting to help continue pivoting.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[glk]

23 hours ago, Billywhizz said:

 

That's what I thought , but he does seem to imply that the active movement of the arms are required for control rather than generating club head speed.

 

I was looking at that Drew Cooper video where his body was more open approaching impact but Dr Kwon wanted him squarer.  That doesn't tie in with Dr Phil Cheetham suggests in his dissertation "The Relationship of Club Handle Twist Velocity to Selected Biomechanical Characteristics of the Golf Drive".

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The golf instructor can now be aware that a swing with a low HTV will tend to 
be more open to the target and more side bent toward the ball at impact. The instructor should 
not attempt to bring this golfer into a more square position at impact, and vice-versa for the golfer 
with a high HTV swing. This would evidently counter the natural tendencies of each technique.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Believe Kwon is talking about shoulders while cheetham is talking about sternum - there is a difference - good swing will have the sternum open while the shoulders can be close to square to the target line - AMG has done video's on this in the past - not a good idea to attempt to have the shoulders as open as the sternum at impact.

[glk]

51 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

 

Yes, Cheetham does talk about the thorax (ribcage)  while Dr Kwon mentions shoulders . 

 

I did find an interesting AMG video below but I can't find one about closed shoulders (relative to ribcage) approaching impact . 

 

 

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKHLHX0McCn/

[zacgolf]

 

[Nels55]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:15 AM, i*windows said:

this session with Ben Crane is just great, but also goes to show how a simple concept can be pretty difficult to implement even for a PGA pro.

 

I feel like this is the best video yet for me to get a better idea of the concepts.  It will be interesting to see how Ben Crane does in the future.  He is currently ranked 1692 in the world and it seems that he has not been playing real well.  He really seemed to be happy with the swing that he was making at the end.  Hopefully he will do well.  It would be fun to see a pro doing the stage one drill on TV.

[Duffer Mark]

The Crane video was good. My question is about the lead leg action as the swing transitions from backswing to downswing. 
 

When Kwon says kick the ground, does that mean pushing straight up with the lead leg or…?

[hammersia]

I know it's me, but I've been trying to follow a few Kwon videos, I'm confused.

 

I can do the two step drill as in putting the feet in the right place at the right time - I'm a great dancer - but I don't follow what I'm supposed to be feeling, when I'm pushing off the left, height going up and down etc.

 

Can anyone describe in a couple of sentences the feelings I need to achieve?

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, hammersia said:

I know it's me, but I've been trying to follow a few Kwon videos, I'm confused.

 

I can do the two step drill as in putting the feet in the right place at the right time - I'm a great dancer - but I don't follow what I'm supposed to be feeling, when I'm pushing off the left, height going up and down etc.

 

Can anyone describe in a couple of sentences the feelings I need to achieve?

just throw a baseball, that shifting is what they are trying to teach in the golf swing. People become way too static with their legs and pressures in the golf swing. 

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, hammersia said:

I know it's me, but I've been trying to follow a few Kwon videos, I'm confused.

 

I can do the two step drill as in putting the feet in the right place at the right time - I'm a great dancer - but I don't follow what I'm supposed to be feeling, when I'm pushing off the left, height going up and down etc.

 

Can anyone describe in a couple of sentences the feelings I need to achieve?

I feel your pain!  It is not easy to know when we are doing the drills correctly on our own.  Watching the lessons confirms this as Kwon gives his students constant feedback.  

 

I don't think that anyone can tell you what the correct motion 'feels' like.  You need some feedback from an instructor or possibly from video.  For me chasing a 'feel' will produce the worst outcome over time.  For instance if I learn a new movement that is actually correct it might feel kind of weird at first but after some time I won't be able to feel the movement at all which is when I start over doing it or possibly I find that I am not doing it at all and have gone back to my old movement.  

 

I do think that doing Kwon's drills will help to ingrain the new movement even if the drills are not done perfectly.  If you can video yourself and compare with what Kwon's students look like while they are trying to learn you might be able to figure it out for yourself.  Otherwise you need to find somebody who can watch you practice and tell you when you are actually making the correct movement.  Then you will know what it feels like.

[hammersia]

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

just throw a baseball, that shifting is what they are trying to teach in the golf swing. People become way too static with their legs and pressures in the golf swing. 

I totally believe in the "throwing" stuff, skipping stones etc. but....

 

I'm left handed and play right handed. So a difficult move to feel for me.

[wantstonotsuck]

19 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I totally believe in the "throwing" stuff, skipping stones etc. but....

 

I'm left handed and play right handed. So a difficult move to feel for me.

 

Same. For that reason, I sometimes try to imagine loading the lower body with the intention of flinging a frisbee 100 yards. In his YouTube comments, Kwon replied that winding up to throw a frisbee matches up with what he is teaching. Another 'left-handed righty' feel I go to is imaging I am holding a tennis racket and 'backhanding' the ball by turning through it with my body as my left wrist is in flexion, and then having my wrist naturally flatten and go into extension as the turn progresses.

Edited March 25, 2022 by wantstonotsuck

[Nels55]

56 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

I didn't know that active wrists stabilised the body? Dr Kwon said as you push the club towards the target with an active wrist action, the club pushes back on the body. That would require some force via the wrists on the club to have such an effect on the body's mass.

I found that part of the Ben Crane video interesting.  I don't remember seeing Kwon giving that advice very often.  In Ben Crane's case we have a highly skilled player who has won multiple times on tour and has been as high as number 39 on world golf rankings so he might get different swing cues the most.  The other thing is that in Ben Crane's case the advice to activate the wrists / arms or whatever did immediately cause him to make a nice finish so it worked. 

 

Another thing to consider is that when the driver is swung at 100mph the force exerted on the golfer is somewhere close to 87 lbs of pull which is actually a fair amount to deal with.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Billywhizz said:

I didn't know that active wrists stabilised the body? Dr Kwon said as you push the club towards the target with an active wrist action, the club pushes back on the body. That would require some force via the wrists on the club to have such an effect on the body's mass.

It’s in the scientific studies on the swing these guys put out, as you throw out the wrists and release the clubhead it slows down the rotation of upper body to send the energy through the clubhead like a whip 

[Duffer Mark]

So I hit balls for an hour at the PGA Superstore today. I’m doing well with my 7 iron after working on recentering. 
 

However, the drive continues to be a challenge. I tried the Lag Shot driver for the first time (which I may return). Whether using my driver or the Lag Shot, I pushed about every shot left - short and left. I did Kwon’s stage 3 drill a few times before hitting a shot and those had the best results. Maybe I need to focus on Kwon’s drills. 

[MK7Golf21]

42 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

 

1. If the lead arm speeds up , the body slows down

2. If the club speeds up, the lead arm slows down

 

Working this backwards:

 

3. If the club is made to speed up  with active wrist torque , the lead arm slows down (same as point 2  above)

4. If the arm slows down, the body speeds up (ie. the opposite of point 1 above).

 

Have I made an error somewhere?

 

 

 

pretty much, if you never release the club or late you don't have the proper braking and extension of the body to swing against and can fall out of balance.