Can a legit scratch golfer with an professional athletic background beat a 50 something retired LPGA pro?

[Mcgeeno]

Lowe beat some. It’s possible.

 

This topic always goes crazy but here we are watching them play the same tees and a scratch dude beat six or seven of the best.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, Mcgeeno said:

Lowe beat some. It’s possible.

 

This topic always goes crazy but here we are watching them play the same tees and a scratch dude beat six or seven of the best.

Another interesting tidbit is that this result somewhat supports the handicap system.  The difference in men's and women's course ratings for the tees played (approximately the Blue/White combo tees) is 6.3 strokes.  A top LPGA player will typically play to anywhere from a +6 to +8 women's index.  That makes them right at or a stroke or two better than a tournament scratch male.  Pretty much what we see in this tournament's scoring.

 

Fun fact - Annika played to a +4 or so women's index over the course of the tournament (it would be better, but the slope for those tees is a crazy 147 - ouch!).  Very impressive for a senior woman even considering her modern GOAT status.

[Obee]

46 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Another interesting tidbit is that this result somewhat supports the handicap system.  The difference in men's and women's course ratings for the tees played (approximately the Blue/White combo tees) is 6.3 strokes.  A top LPGA player will typically play to anywhere from a +6 to +8 women's index.  That makes them right at or a stroke or two better than a tournament scratch male.  Pretty much what we see in this tournament's scoring.

 

Fun fact - Annika played to a +4 or so women's index over the course of the tournament (it would be better, but the slope for those tees is a crazy 147 - ouch!).  Very impressive for a senior woman even considering her modern GOAT status.

 

If people just input all their scores, the math of the system works quite well. The wildcard is in determining what the rating/slope is for extremely difficult set ups that both pros and ams see who compete. The new system is supposed to factor that in, but I'm not sure it's quite doing its job yet...

[bladehunter]

According to the data released on handicaps on last 25 years.  Todays scratch male is a 2 roughly speaking , with  todays equipment.  That’s how much the handicap has changed on average . So there’s that too.  
 

point being.  You’d need to compare a traveling plus2  like Fish to be a real apples to apples test unless you’re going to move the ladies back to the guys tee. 

 

i don’t mean to say they’re not scratch per todays inputs. I just mean that they’re getting a ton of help.  The term scratch is thrown around now and means nothing really. 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by bladehunter

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

If people just input all their scores, the math of the system works quite well. The wildcard is in determining what the rating/slope is for extremely difficult set ups that both pros and ams see who compete. The new system is supposed to factor that in, but I'm not sure it's quite doing its job yet...

Agree.  Too much weight on length and too little weight on green complexes.

[ThinkingPlus]

51 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

According to the data released on handicaps on last 25 years.  Todays scratch male is a 2 roughly speaking , with  todays equipment.  That’s how much the handicap has had age do on average . So there’s that too.  
 

point being.  You’d need to compare a traveling plus2  like Fish to be a real apples to apples test unless you’re going to move the ladies back to the guys tee. 

 

i don’t mean to say they’re not scratch per todays inputs. I just mean that they’re getting a ton of help.  The term scratch is thrown around now and means nothing really. 

 

 

I thought handicaps hadn't budged in many years despite the equipment changes.

 

Edit: Never mind.  Found the data you were referencing.

Edited January 24, 2022 by ThinkingPlus
New info...

[tacklingdummy]

This LPGA and celebrity tournaments are really interesting and a good format. Able to really compare some amateurs against the pros. The LPGA pros are just magicians with the scoring clubs and keeping the ball in play. Most the men amateurs are much longer than the LPGA players which is an advantage, but not if in play. Perhaps a wide open course off the tee, the results would be different. 

 

Were the conditions tough? Some of the top LPGA pros did not score well. Danielle Kang just crushed the field. 

[Obee]

26 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

This LPGA and celebrity tournaments are really interesting and a good format. Able to really compare some amateurs against the pros. The LPGA pros are just magicians with the scoring clubs and keeping the ball in play. Most the men amateurs are much longer than the LPGA players which is an advantage, but not if in play. Perhaps a wide open course off the tee, the results would be different. 

 

Were the conditions tough? Some of the top LPGA pros did not score well. Danielle Kang just crushed the field. 

 

Conditions seemed quite tough, actually. Very cold -- at least on the final day -- and that's a big scoring deterrent. Greens nice a fast, too. 12ish.

[gioreeko]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:04 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

LOL, I'm surprised to find out someone cares. 

 

I care about watching Annika, could care less about watching "celebs" play golf.  

"could care less" means you care. 

[Hawkeye77]

59 minutes ago, gioreeko said:

"could care less" means you care. 

Yes, in some undefined but very small amount greater than zero and I could not care more, lol. 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I thought handicaps hadn't budged in many years despite the equipment changes.

 

Edit: Never mind.  Found the data you were referencing.

Sorry. Was watching my boys team remain undefeated in basketball !  ( shameless plug ).    
 

this is the article I had referenced earlier. 
 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-closer-look-at-handicap-data-shows-just-how-much-golfers-have-improved-in-recent-years/amp

[ThinkingPlus]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sorry. Was watching my boys team remain undefeated in basketball !  ( shameless plug ).    
 

this is the article I had referenced earlier. 
 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-closer-look-at-handicap-data-shows-just-how-much-golfers-have-improved-in-recent-years/amp

That's what I found.

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, Mcgeeno said:

Lowe beat some. It’s possible.

 

This topic always goes crazy but here we are watching them play the same tees and a scratch dude beat six or seven of the best.

So now a +2.8 is a scratch?  
 

 

[MUNIGRIT]

7 hours ago, Mcgeeno said:

Lowe beat some. It’s possible.

 

This topic always goes crazy but here we are watching them play the same tees and a scratch dude beat six or seven of the best.

What was their relation to par?

Edited January 25, 2022 by MUNIGRIT

[ThinkingPlus]

9 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

What was their relation to par?

Lowe was +7.  Annika was +6.  They tied in the Stableford format and Lowe made a long par putt to win the playoff.

[ThinkingPlus]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So now a +2.8 is a scratch?  
 

 

The announcers indicated Lowe was a 0.2.  They mentioned that Fish was the only plus at +2.x.

[Obee]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So now a +2.8 is a scratch?  
 

 

Lowe was a +0.2 when I checked two days ago, with a 12-month LI OF +2.0

[Obee]

[Mcgeeno]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So now a +2.8 is a scratch?  
 

 

 

Derek Lowe is a scratch. (0.2)

 

Like I said, so many dudes get so offended over this idea lol.

 

It is what it is. We got to watch it for 4 rounds. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Mcgeeno

[Mcgeeno]

1 hour ago, MUNIGRIT said:

What was their relation to par?

 

Lowe shot +7

 

Mirim Lee was +20, Wie was +20, Nordquist was +16, Ernst +11. He tied Mel Reid. 

 

15 of 30 golfers shot over par. It was tough conditions and Lowe put together a high quality string of golf. 

 

Hilton Grand Vacations Tournament of Champions - Golf Leaderboard and Results - ESPN

 

It can, and it did happen. His final round in those conditions was impressive and he took down a handful of the best ladies in the world for one round. 

[Chazb]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:27 AM, brutus27 said:

WTF is she doing in the “celebrity” tournament. She’s a pro, has she no pride. 

Is she still a pro,  I dont know but a pro can be reinstated as amateur and play in amateur events.

[golfandfishing]

7 hours ago, Chazb said:

Is she still a pro,  I dont know but a pro can be reinstated as amateur and play in amateur events.

She made at least $180k playing golf last year. 

[bladehunter]

10 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So now a +2.8 is a scratch?  
 

 

Eh.   Changed my mind.  Who cares. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by bladehunter

[golfandfishing]

15 hours ago, bladehunter said:

According to the data released on handicaps on last 25 years.  Todays scratch male is a 2 roughly speaking , with  todays equipment.  That’s how much the handicap has changed on average . So there’s that too.  
 

point being.  You’d need to compare a traveling plus2  like Fish to be a real apples to apples test unless you’re going to move the ladies back to the guys tee. 

 

i don’t mean to say they’re not scratch per todays inputs. I just mean that they’re getting a ton of help.  The term scratch is thrown around now and means nothing really. 

 

 

Yeah, “scratch” means a wide variety of things in the club golf world - ask 100 members at your club and you would get: tour player, pro, club pro, zero handicap, someone who plays in the gross game on Saturdays, someone who is in the championship flight of the club championship, someone who shoots even par, and about 75 other answers. 
 

The commonly accepted “scratch” is a 0 handicap (I think?). This means nothing, it’s a math problem. A guy can average 80 and be a 0 handicap. A guy can average 70 and be a 0 handicap. I worked at 2 clubs where you could get to “scratch” and never shoot E or better. I worked at another where you had to be under par half the time to do it. Outside of the few best players at any of those clubs, no one had the same definition of scratch. As we saw in this thread, some scratch players can beat LPGA tour players, and as we have seen in our own worlds some scratch players cannot break 85 unless they are on their home course in the comfort of their buddies, some beer and a bag of weed. 

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The announcers indicated Lowe was a 0.2.  They mentioned that Fish was the only plus at +2.x.

Lowe….Fish….yes I had them backwards.  I sure either is just thrilled to tie, or nearly tie a retired professional 51 year old woman.

[Obee]

25 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Lowe….Fish….yes I had them backwards.  I sure either is just thrilled to tie, or nearly tie a retired professional 51 year old woman.

Shilgy, come on. Talk about goal post moving. This thread is not about how they would feel about it.

[ThinkingPlus]

58 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Lowe….Fish….yes I had them backwards.  I sure either is just thrilled to tie, or nearly tie a retired professional 51 year old woman.

Nah, they puffed their chest out and pointed to how many times they out drove Annika with their 4 irons.  LOL!

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, golfandfishing said:

Yeah, “scratch” means a wide variety of things in the club golf world - ask 100 members at your club and you would get: tour player, pro, club pro, zero handicap, someone who plays in the gross game on Saturdays, someone who is in the championship flight of the club championship, someone who shoots even par, and about 75 other answers. 
 

The commonly accepted “scratch” is a 0 handicap (I think?). This means nothing, it’s a math problem. A guy can average 80 and be a 0 handicap. A guy can average 70 and be a 0 handicap. I worked at 2 clubs where you could get to “scratch” and never shoot E or better. I worked at another where you had to be under par half the time to do it. Outside of the few best players at any of those clubs, no one had the same definition of scratch. As we saw in this thread, some scratch players can beat LPGA tour players, and as we have seen in our own worlds some scratch players cannot break 85 unless they are on their home course in the comfort of their buddies, some beer and a bag of weed. 

Thank you. That was my point.  Fish is probably a true “ scratch “ as far as traveling and averaging 71-72.  That equates to a plus 2.8 while I’m certain playing most of his rounds at a home course like the rest of us.  

[Forged4ever]

17 hours ago, gioreeko said:

"could care less" means you care. 

Nah, while I would agree the majority of the time, however when @Hawkeye77 states that he doesn't care, he really doesn't give a sh*t😉

 

Stay Well My Friends👊
RP

[Forged4ever]

I enjoy these threads🤙
 

"Scratch"

 

"Legit Scratch"

 

What, versus, say an "illegitimate"  scratch😜🤪

 

"Traveling Scratch(this one kills me😂😂)"

 

"Retired LPGA Players"

 

All that we're missing is that elusive illusory ephemeral "4~"!!!

 

I loooooooove this place🥰😘

 

Please don't ever chang my Friends👊
RP

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Forged4ever