Can a legit scratch golfer with an professional athletic background beat a 50 something retired LPGA pro?

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Thank you. That was my point.  Fish is probably a true “ scratch “ as far as traveling and averaging 71-72.  That equates to a plus 2.8 while I’m certain playing most of his rounds at a home course like the rest of us.  

 

I really don't understand this line. Please explain it to me.

You think a guy has to average 71, 72 and travel a considerable amount to be a "true" scratch? The travelling part I completely understand, and I absolutely include it as part of my "true" or "travelling" scratch definition. If the guy plays lots of tournaments, he's even a better "true scratch." But the "averaging 71, 72" I don't understand at all.

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

I enjoy these threads🤙
 

"Scratch"

 

"Traveling Scratch(this one kills me😂😂)"

 

"Retired LPGA Players"

 

All that we're missing is that elusive illusory ephemeral "4~"!!!

 

I loooooooove this place🥰😘

 

Please don't ever chang my Friends👊
RP

 

 

 

We shan't, Richard. We shan't. 😉

[Obee]

Here are Derek Lowe's last 20 scores. He averaged 75. Is he not a "true" scratch because he averaged 75? And playing some very, very easy courses, I might add... Heck, if he averaged 72 over those rounds he'd be a +3 or +4. Keep in mind that I am currently unemployed and I have a lot of time on my hands .... 🤣

 

[Obee]

Now, I actually suspect that Derek Lowe might be a bit of a bagger and would really live in the +2 to +3 range if he posted all his rounds. Would love to hear from his buddies if he posts all his scores or not. I suspect he is one of those guys who "forget" to post his 68's and 69's (and 67's and 66's!) when he shoots them at tough courses. Or he "forgets" and posts from the whites or blues when he really played from the Black tees. 🤣

 

But for now, we have to view him as a true scratch guy based on his GHIN.

 

P.S. Derek Lowe: If you're reading this, don't take offense! I'm not accusing you, just spitballing here!!

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

 

I really don't understand this line. Please explain it to me.

You think a guy has to average 71, 72 and travel a considerable amount to be a "true" scratch? The travelling part I completely understand, and I absolutely include it as part of my "true" or "travelling" scratch definition. If the guy plays lots of tournaments, he's even a better "true scratch." But the "averaging 71, 72" I don't understand at all.

It’s that simple I think the real scratch player will have a 71-72 ish give or take scoring average.  Average.  Meaning an 80 is possible but very improbable , and a 66-67 isn’t out of the possibility.   Assuming a harder rates course is his main place of play.     If he’s in a course that’s rated 68-124 or something.  It’s going to be lower than 72.  
 

 

edit.  I’m sitting here eating my lunch thinking about this.  Perhaps I’m just sharing my opinion on the term. When someone says scratch to me. I’m not “wowed “.  The catch phrase to me is pretty meaningless anymore.  So the premise of the topic here , is a no brainer.  Yes. The celebrity “ scratch “ player has no chance.  Zero - unless the women move back.  Which really isn’t fair.  
 

but my point above is just that.  Scratch is such a subjective term , it can have a 10 shot swing in scoring average.  Praising  scratch , would be like praising a guy because he cab run the floor and make a basket in basketball.  So what ? How is that a measuring point of any skill that matters ? It’s really not.  It’s just the made up thing that club players think means that you are good.  I try and I try to explain to people who say things like that to my face

 

“ it really doesn’t mean anything.  I struggle with the same thing you do , the rest is just being born able to perform a task.  It’s luck.  “     Same as running fast. You can’t learn it. You can only polish it.  It’s not really an achievement, it’s just nature.    Only in golf do we make these comparisons.  It’s odd.  can your average 10k participant beat Bolt if he gives them a 99 meter head start ???  😜

 

there’s so many off things here that I can’t compute it as a comparison.  Most “ scratch “ players have jobs.  Don’t play much etc   Every player listed as scratch has a different ceiling , meaning of you gave him a year off work , expenses paid.  What would he get down to ?  Some +4 -5. Some wouldn’t improve at all.
 

  So I suppose I get what you’re saying as far as handicaps.  ultimately the validity of each scratch players handicap can be found in play head to head.  But to take them as a whole and place against professional females will never get an answer.  It’s to general vs to finite. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by bladehunter

[Pepperturbo]

Didn't read the whole thread.  IMO there are two categories of golfers.  Golfers used to playing in leagues and easy courses, and golfers used to playing difficult, highly rated courses and regional tournaments.  The guy that reaches "Scratch" playing "one" relatively easy rated course is NOT the same as the guy that reaches scratch playing diverse highly rated 138/145 courses.   The same applies to low-single digit players.  For the longest time my 2 was from a 74.6/135 7k+ course.  Now, my 4 is most off 72.4/130 6500k+ rated track.

 

Which is better depends on the person's mindset and what level of pressure he/she is used to.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, Obee said:

Here are Derek Lowe's last 20 scores. He averaged 75. Is he not a "true" scratch because he averaged 75? And playing some very, very easy courses, I might add... Heck, if he averaged 72 over those rounds he'd be a +3 or +4. Keep in mind that I am currently unemployed and I have a lot of time on my hands .... 🤣

 

Scoring average of 75 on easy courses ?  Not in my book. 

[Obee]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Scoring average of 75 on easy courses ?  Not in my book. 

 

Yet he just tied Annika and beat/tied five LPGA Tour winners from last year over four rounds, and beat or tied almost the entire field on the final day. Interesting.

 

So, to be clear, a "scratch golfer" in your book might have an actual, USGA index of +2.5 to +3.5 or even lower? Because that's what guys who average 71 to 72 who play a variety of courses frequently have as their actual GHIN indexes. Just clarifying.

[ezpz]

23 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Didn't read the whole thread.  IMO there are two categories of golfers.  Golfers used to playing in leagues and easy courses, and golfers used to playing difficult, highly rated courses and regional tournaments.  The guy that reaches "Scratch" playing "one" relatively easy rated course is NOT the same as the guy that reaches scratch playing diverse highly rated 138/145 courses.   The same applies to low-single digit players.  For the longest time my 2 was from a 74.6/135 7k+ course.  Now, my 4 is most off 72.4/130 6500k+ rated track.

 

Which is better depends on the person's mindset and what level of pressure he/she is used to.

 

 

I think its more of a fundamental thing of how a golf pro is succesful vs how to maintain a scratch hcp. You can't make it on any tour by having blowup rounds, however given the HCP system it is very much possible to hold a scratch handicap regardless of some disasterous rounds. To do what a tourpro does over 4 rounds, especialy minimizing deleterious effects of bad rounds is something few scratch golfers are able to do regardless of the difficulty of the course they typicaly play. (obviously I am not talking about top level ams like college/national tournament players, who are miles ahead of a 0 hcp).

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

46 minutes ago, Obee said:

Keep in mind that I am currently unemployed and I have a lot of time on my hands .... 

Sounds like the perfect storm for getting back to scratch and match play practice. 😛

[munichop]

I am one of those guys who has what I consider an inflated hdcp because I primarily play easier tracks and my two mens club events are on the same courses all the times.  That being said there are some advantages to scoring on courses pros play in tourney conditions.  The course conditions are usually very consistent and well conditioned.  The speed of the greens are usually very similar from hole to hole.  The bunkers are consistent, etc. So scoring shots on and around the green allow a skilled player to save shots.  Obviously you still need to execute but consistent conditions allow you to take some of the guess work out.  To me the fact that Lowe handled the weather so well says more about his game than whether Lake Nona was harder or easier than he is used to playing.  

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Yet he just tied Annika and beat/tied five LPGA Tour winners from last year over four rounds, and beat or tied almost the entire field on the final day. Interesting.

 

So, to be clear, a "scratch golfer" in your book might have an actual, USGA index of +2.5 to +3.5 or even lower? Because that's what guys who average 71 to 72 who play a variety of courses frequently have as their actual GHIN indexes. Just clarifying.

Please See my above edit.  
 

 

but yes. That’s the line of player that “ wows” me.  To me that’s where the monicker is warranted.  
 

 

[Pepperturbo]

36 minutes ago, ezpz said:

however given the HCP system it is very much possible to hold a scratch handicap regardless of some disasterous rounds.

Yep. 

 

IMO where most people error is not understanding how much "frame of mind" plays into going from low-single/scratch to a higher level of "+" play.  We can see that just by looking above at "Lowe" scores, and index and who those scores relate to on the LPGA. 

 

When I was a 2/3 I played many times in a Pro-Ams with a now-retired TX LPGA pro friend, and we had some private $$$ rounds too.  I've seen her go low and beat me with a stick, but I've also beat her on a few days.   Going back to "frame of mind"; if a scratch or low-single digit player puts touring pros on a pedestal, that person will undoubtedly never measure up. 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Please See my above edit.  
 

 

but yes. That’s the line of player that “ wows” me.  To me that’s where the monicker is warranted.  
 

 

 

Gotcha.

 

I call that guy a "legit plus-capper" or "regionally/nationally competitive am" or something along those lines. Because they're simply better than scratch and a separate way of referring to them is important for clarity's sake, IMHO. Here's my buddy, Sam, he has averaged 72.35 over his last 20 playing a wide variety of courses. He is currently a +2.2 with an 12-month low index of +4.1. The guy can golf his ball. He won the SoCal PubLinks last year and regularly is a top-10 or top-15 guy in legit regional stuff in probably the most competitive region in all of amateur golf.

 

He deserves a different term than "scratch golfer," IMHO, even though he "only" averages between 71 and 72. I mean, if you call him a "scratch golfer," what do you call guys who have indexes of ~0.0 who travel and play tournaments?

 

 

 

 

[TiScape]

These kind of threads separate the average/casual golfer that is a club ho from the guys that take it to the next level. This is definitely a ‘next level’ thread! Haha

Now I’m definitely in the ‘former’ category. Casual golfer that is into equipment. To me scratch is someone that averages par. Now whether that’s correct (after reading I’m almost certain it’s not! 😂) or not, I really don’t care! 🤷🏼‍♂️ Haha 

OK, I’ll be going now. Carry on 😊

[bladehunter]

42 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Gotcha.

 

I call that guy a "legit plus-capper" or "regionally/nationally competitive am" or something along those lines. Because they're simply better than scratch and a separate way of referring to them is important for clarity's sake, IMHO. Here's my buddy, Sam, he has averaged 72.35 over his last 20 playing a wide variety of courses. He is currently a +2.2 with an 12-month low index of +4.1. The guy can golf his ball. He won the SoCal PubLinks last year and regularly is a top-10 or top-15 guy in legit regional stuff in probably the most competitive region in all of amateur golf.

 

He deserves a different term than "scratch golfer," IMHO, even though he "only" averages between 71 and 72. I mean, if you call him a "scratch golfer," what do you call guys who have indexes of ~0.0 who travel and play tournaments?

 

 

 

 

Yep. That’s what I think of as a scratch player.  Not casting dispersions. But he has a tell - or pattern.  Harder  rated courses , and he’s not scoring well.  He’s living off those 130 and lower courses.  But it’s splitting hairs.   If he’s traveling and winning that’s the “scratch”  guy that should be compared to a lady  who plays for a living.  In my opinion. 
 

i guess in my mind the handicap BS stops at 0.0.  I don’t know anybody in person who’s + that uses a handicap for anything besides entry to events.  You may negotiate a shot a side from  somebody if you know he’s on a heater.  But we just aren’t saying “ Sam  you owe me 2 shots since I’m up to +0.3 now. “.   So I guess that my line. When you will play off the stick.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by bladehunter

[Obee]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. That’s what I think of as a scratch player.  Not casting dispersions. But he has a tell - or pattern.  Harder  rated courses , and he’s not scoring well.  He’s living off those 130 and lower courses.  But it’s splitting hairs.   If he’s traveling and winning that’s the “scratch”  guy that should be compared to a lady  who plays for a living.  In my opinion. 
 

i guess in my mind the handicap BS stops at 0.0.  I don’t know anybody in person who’s + that uses a handicap for anything besides entry to events.  You may negotiate a shot a side from  somebody if you know he’s on a heater.  But we just aren’t saying “ Sam  you owe me 2 shots since I’m up to +0.3 now. “.   So I guess that my line. When you will play off the stick.  

 

You missed the 67, 68 he shot at Hacienda from the tips because they just fell off. Those are scores that the best ladies would have trouble shooting at that course. And I mean the very, very best. Sam is a legit regional/national player who plays the mini-tour guys straight up for legit cash all the time.

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

You missed the 67, 68 he shot at Hacienda from the tips because they just fell off. Those are scores that the best ladies would have trouble shooting at that course. And I mean the very, very best. Sam is a legit regional/national player who plays the mini-tour guys straight up for legit cash all the time.

Right. I believe that.  I do. 
 

i don’t know.  I probably shouldn’t even have commented. My mind is in a weird “ winter crap “ phase. I ended the year getting hot after another bad putting run , and then the weather went to crap.  Which makes for a bad attitude I guess.
 

in the 30 degree temps  My current cap  has ballooned this morning to a 0.4.  And my current mindset is “ that sucks “.  Lol. So maintaining a 0.0 cap to me on a 136 course isn’t really something to jump up and down about.  And I certainly wouldn’t challenge a lady pro to a money game right now.  Lol. I guess that’s where I’m at , at the moment.    
 

buy I tend to dwell only on today. I do also know that with warm weather I’ll jump right back down ( hopefully farther down ) without any real change.  So I’m going to go back to work.  lol. And try not to challenge any lady pros! 

[Forged4ever]

3 hours ago, Obee said:

 

Yet he just tied Annika and beat/tied five LPGA Tour winners from last year over four rounds, and beat or tied almost the entire field on the final day. Interesting.

 

So, to be clear, a "scratch golfer" in your book might have an actual, USGA index of +2.5 to +3.5 or even lower? Because that's what guys who average 71 to 72 who play a variety of courses frequently have as their actual GHIN indexes. Just clarifying.

On a serious note, this is actually the whole crux of the matter, as to what exactly is a "scratch golfer," as I believe that the definition is different from golfer to golfer.

 

Just for those not familiar with my mindset, thoughts or posts, when I speak of "scratches" and "Plusses," I am speaking of "competitive" Players in both categories, or as some like to say, "traveling scratches" or "traveling Plusses." I do not put "competitive" in front of those nouns as in my former golf world, there were nothing but "competitive" Scratches, Plusses & Pros, much like Obe's world. Poseurs, like former Tiger nemesis,  Josh Scobee, who was what we referred to as a "club" Plus, didn't last but one round at my club😂😂🤙

 

Obes brought up a great point in that while I did indeed shoot around "scratch," my GHIN, aside from Beefeaters, was +2.8. When asked, I always replied that I was a "Plus," only saying the exact number if asked. 
 

So, as David stated, one has to clarify exactly what their definition of a "scratch" Player is.

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️
RP

Edited January 25, 2022 by Forged4ever

[PracticeSwinger]

I think this interesting thread is demonstrating (if nothing else haha) that by definition the handicap system is showing the potential of a player, on any given day, if he had a match or stroke play to try and level out the playing field... It is not showing what a guy usually scores, on average, relative to par...

 

Thus, on any given sunday - can Derek Lowe play with Annika (or even 30 LPGA ladies for that matter)? The answer is yes and we had an example of such days...

 

Can Derek Lowe keep up for a tourney (or longer) with LPGA ladies? The answer is no, at +7 he would have finished T24 out of 30... 23 strokes behind...

[MUNIGRIT]

Since it was Stableford did they pick up at some point or always play the hole out?

Edited January 25, 2022 by MUNIGRIT

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I think this interesting thread is demonstrating (if nothing else haha) that by definition the handicap system is showing the potential of a player, on any given day, if he had a match or stroke play to try and level out the playing field... It is not showing what a guy usually scores, on average, relative to par...

 

Thus, on any given sunday - can Derek Lowe play with Annika (or even 30 LPGA ladies for that matter)? The answer is yes and we had an example of such days...

 

Can Derek Lowe keep up for a tourney (or longer) with LPGA ladies? The answer is no, at +7 he would have finished T24 out of 30... 23 strokes behind...

But.  At T24 out of 30/ isn’t that “ keeping up “.  ? I’d think not keeping up would be 31st and 7 shots from that.  Otherwise we’re casting dispersions on the female pros at the back of the pack.  And that can’t work.  Any given Sunday the rahms , deshambeus or Rory’s of the tour are at home watching as they missed the cut.  

[PracticeSwinger]

12 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Since it was Stableford did they pick up at some point or always play the hole out?

Was wondering about that also - because double or a 9 doesn't make much difference... and when digging the celebs that had a hard time; biggest above par on every hole is a double...

 

Edit to add that Derek Lowe only had 2 'doubles' in those four rounds (Annika had none)... so, not much of a factor in that +7 final score... maybe more in the mindset going for certain shots(?), who knows...

Edited January 25, 2022 by MtlJayMan

[PracticeSwinger]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

But.  At T24 out of 30/ isn’t that “ keeping up “.  ? I’d think not keeping up would be 31st and 7 shots from that.

Fair enough... but my point was more; if he loses on average a couple of strokes per round to the typical LPGA lady... extrapolating : on any day, anything can happen... for a tourney, maybe... for a season, no chance

[bladehunter]

40 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Fair enough... but my point was more; if he loses on average a couple of strokes per round to the typical LPGA lady... extrapolating : on any day, anything can happen... for a tourney, maybe... for a season, no chance

Eh.  I don’t even know if we can say that. This was a fairly strong field.  At least half so.  We’d have to be assuming that he played his tip top best possible and they played their worst possible. I don’t think either is true.   Then there’s the tee question.  Do we handicap it with separate tees or not ? 

[isaacbm]

🍿 

[isaacbm]

I’m in the camp where I just say “I’m a plus.”

 

My regular group of pluses/low caps used to make bets based on all kinds of things. 
Is a guy hung over, new set of clubs, has he broken par this week, has he got the yips, what tees are we playing, on and on. 
Never  ever did we say “what is your exact index?” Betting was an art. I knew some guys that were a plus 3 at golf but a ten cap at betting! It was all about how much you knew about the player and what you thought you could get away with.  That was half the fun! “What’s your index?” Boring!! Let’s spend 20 mins on the putting green/first tee shooting the shlt and see who’s on their betting game. Then let’s see who can back it up! 
   Comparing a one off event is frankly boring to me. Let’s see Annika work the angles before a ball is hit! I think she’d do great! 
    Big difference when your own money and pride are on the line after beaking up a storm on the putting green. 

[Forged4ever]

23 hours ago, Obee said:

Shilgy, come on. Talk about goal post moving. This thread is not about how they would feel about it.

Great call @Obee!!

Oh, @Shilgy's is a first ballot WRX HoFer under the "Goal Post Moving(GPM)" category!!

 

The amazing thing is not that he does it, as that's a mandatory skill for any WRX regular, however it is that most are not even aware that he did it, as if they look away from their screen, then when they look back to respond, 💥BOOM💥, instead of 110 to the pin from the middle of the fairway, they've got 136yds, from the second cut😝

 

Way to take a stand Obes👊!!
 

I love ya Shilgs, but you're a Putz, and hell no, Jack didn't have an easier stroll down the fairways than these entitled brats have today😜
 

"Depth of Field???"

 

Next thing ya know, Shilg's is gonna be including the Player's Caddie's and first born son in the mix🤪

 

Lovingly💕 

RP

Edited January 26, 2022 by Forged4ever

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Forged4ever said:

Great call @Obee!!

Oh, @Shilgy's is a first ballot WRX HoFer under the "Goal Post Moving(GPM)" category!!

 

The amazing thing is not that he does it, as that's a mandatory skill for any WRX regular, however it is that most are not even aware that he did it, as if they look away from their screen, then when they look back to respond, 💥BOOM💥, instead of 110 to the pin from the middle of the fairway, they've got 136yds, from the second cut😝

 

Way to take a stand Obes👊!!
 

I love ya Shilgs, but you're a Putz, and hell no, Jack didn't have an easier stroll down the fairways than these entitled brats have today😜
 

"Depth of Field???"

 

Next thing ya know, Shilg's is gonna be including the Player's Caddie's and first born son in the mix🤪

 

Lovingly💕 

RP

Lol…..not about feels?  This whole thread has been about feels.  What do you feel is a scratch?  But how about a traveling or tourney scratch?  Lol. I crossed Lowe an Fish in their “real”  index.  “Real” because as @Obee stated Lowe is likely in the plus range a bit with 100% compliant and accurate posting.

  So we have a group of guys posting on the board that have repeatedly stated that a 4, nah… a scratch could compete on the ladies tour.  Which is utterly daft as this last weeks event showed.  If being 20 strokes back after four rounds is competing y’all have an entirely different view of being competitive than I do.

 

As for depth of field not mattering? Lol I’ve said my fill on that subject.  You may have noticed that there were more guys in the 300’s in the owgr last week that finished top ten than there were high rated guys. And Swafford was 166 going in.  But sure.  The guys of the olden golden guys were tough as old shoes because they needed to be to eat. 
 

 

edited to add….

 

 

Adoringly 😍🥰😍

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Shilgy

[Togatown22]

21 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Since it was Stableford did they pick up at some point or always play the hole out?

 

I could swear I saw him pick up a missed putt on the last day as it was still rolling away from the hole.  Did anyone else catch that?